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I'm not talking "put the screws to......" dominance, but that "beacon of light" dominance where we are looked to for guidance.
Now, the events of the last 4 months have put us in a flux, but I think we must be more concerned with "taking care of ourselves" before we can consider taking care of others. And if that means pulling back our companies to here, and hiring us, then so be it.
I want you to think about that. And I agree with you. How can we be a beacon to the rest of the world when one of our preeminent Unions, the UAW is willing to take the Domestic auto industry down to maintain their own personal lifestyle? Is the UAW leadership thinking about the 1000s of workers in the supply sector that are not Union and have never enjoyed the high flying wages and benefits afforded only the elite UAW workers? Or how about the 100s of 1000s tied to the dealerships that are going under faster than the Titanic? Did the UAW worry about any of them when they went on strike last year at the only plants building vehicles the dealerships could sell? I don't think our Union labor force are sending the right message to the rest of the World. If it was a unified front Gettlefinger would have been their with the CEOs saying we will do whatever it takes to get the auto industry back on its feet. No Gettlefinger said we already gave all we are giving up. The UAW could care less about Rocky and his dealership closing its doors. Or the mechanics that are out of work in a 1000 dealerships across America. The UAW thinks they are the most important part of the puzzle and SCREW EVERYONE ELSE.
They must have all left D3 YEARS ago!
Regards,
OW
So well put.
End of story. Watch them swirl around the toilet bowl enjoying those great bene's, because it's going to be a short-lived fun-fest for them.
Wonder if Fo-Mo-Co is going to be able to sell enough rigs to stay in the "won't borrow money from the Guv-Mint" stage. Good for them to not borrow without thinking about it beforehand.
And then to decide against mindlessly borrowing huge sums of money. Instead they will borrow $10B from a line-of-credit of theirs. Whatever gets them through the night, gentlemen.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I hope Ford does survive. When GM and C are history, they can go to Gettlefinger and tell him we either open the contracts or we close down every UAW plant in the US and move them to a country that appreciates them. I don't see any manufacturing in the USA surviving with Unions that are all take and no give.
Ridiculously low quotas for some stations a determined worker could complete in 2 hrs and read the paper the rest of the day. (and thumb his nose at management when he did it)
UAW membership dropping 70%? in 20 years. Despite a large increase in the U.S. sales.(It didn't occur to them it wasn't working?)
The only thing keeping the Domestics afloat was the "outsourcing" of parts to small mechanized machine shops around the country.
15 years ago "outsourcing" was considered to be the traitorous shifting of labor from ridiculously expensive American union shops to far less expensive American non-union shops. The concept of overseas wasn't mentioned much.
I have a customer who makes $12/hr operating a cnc machine producing parts for the local Ford plant. When not doing that he resets for parts from 4 other companies in 2 separate industries. A UAW high school dropout would be paid 4x as much to do 1/5 the work. (and believing he's getting "shafted"). Other UAW workers who knew how lucky they were were powerless. Exceeding quota would make other workers "look bad", and reveal the need for less workers. Work ethic could be highly discouraged. One lady got really reamed by the stewards for consistently producing too much product. "I just get so bored doing nothing" she explained to me. She eventually got to enjoy solitare.
Of course absenteeinsm and alcoholism, $30/hr janitors... we won't go there.
The Democratic party's unholy alliance with the deal. (mostly northern "Blue States" aka "rust belt". $70/hr pay packages meant hefty union dues with the Democrats hand in the payroll through union contributions (98% to Democrats)
The infamous "jobs bank". Hmmmm hardly no other plants lay workers off at full pay to go play pool, at $29/hr much less $50+. Great deal if all the workers could share in this. Unfortunately, only 1-2% of (politically connected) workers can get it and the rest pay up for the products.
There's no way a bunch of high school dropouts/GED folks, with an extra layer of management (union/stewards) ,pay packages 40%? higher than competitors and with rigid work rules (how many UAW guys does it take to change a light bulb..) are going to compete with college educated employees unhindered by such in other plants in automobile manufacturing. The dog won't hunt with $3.00 gas.
Save the flag waving/pearl harbor/working class hero crap for those who don't know any better. Mostly driven "domestic" nameplates all my life, but what they say about watching "sausage being made" surely applied here.
Put a fork in the UAW/domestics for consumer autos. They're done. The Democrats will throw them 30-40 billion (of your tax money making much less/hr. ) to have them float another year.
Some of the "skilled" trades were pulling down $170+k/yr (actual salary sans benefits) with overtime. The dolts should leave the stewards/golf carts/UAW leadership in a ditch.
Good luck folks
--jjf
What a bunch of dorks. Throw them in with the Boeing management, with their raspberry jelly donuts and Starbuck's coffee, making bone-headed decisions to offload their greatest resource, their people, their workers.
Oh well, I have a generous retirement awaiting my wife and I from working there 20 years to look forward to. We're also in the beautiful desert Southwest, enjoying living in Geronimo's old stomping grounds, some of the bluest skies on the earth during the day and some of the darkest, wonderful-for-star gazing nights imaginable.
And a career in Allied Healthcare to boot. Now my wife and son are telling me that Boeing is laying off 10,000 more people, in addition to the first 4,500 people mentioned. Boeing is very ready-to-the-touch, very responsive to the economy, to just 86 people that are essentially runnning the place for their rumps. Incredible...glad to be so far away from that place that I can't pick up on the stomach-wrenching stress created from it.
As for Ford, former Boeing CEO Alan Mulally seems to have a decent grip on things and they don't have to participate in the money-grubbing from the Guv-a-Mint. Good for them. The only new domestic cars I've ever bought were from Ford Motor Company. A return to their cars seems remote right now, but not an impossibility. This economic downturn is a nasty brew of real loss and stress.
Dorks like the Maddox character and his Ponzi scheme only make things worse, like the UAW striking GM any time in the last 15-20 years.
rockford, man, I am one of the regulars here on Edmunds that is really pulling for you. Too many applicants applying for too few positions. I can't recommend applying at Boeing any more to you either, unfortunately. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Our company has dealt with Boeing for many years (we're a sub to Boeing on many of their programs). I always had the impression that Boeing was quick to hire, and quick to layoff, in response to airline orders. People I worked with at Boeing (this is all in the Seattle area) were very much in love with that part of the country, and were very reluctant to move, even when things were tight at TBC. Hence, Boeing thought, rightly or wrongly, that it had a captive workforce which gave it most of the cards in dealings with its workers.
But, I read each 2000 contract offer from the Company to us striking SPEEA workers with a fine-toothed comb. The first offer offered better pay and bene's, but not by much. But the SPEEA crowd was so high on striking that they couldn't force the idea out of their head. I didn't want to strike, too many bills to pay.
But the Boeing Company can be a good place to work at, true. I worked long and hard for them on their Engineering Illustration drawings, first with ink on mylar and eventually with the BOGART system(Boeing's own-developed graphic arts software program). I dealt with the tight stressy stomach, the headaches, the long hours away from my family, and enjoyed some good laughs along the way, too. A good job.
But I harbor more ill will towards Company management and their unnecessary paranoia and easiness to let people go who basically made it possible for the Company to survive and pay their bills for so many years. Yes, SPEEA probably enabled us all better pay and benefits, indeed.
But the UAW is out of control with their greed and apparent lazy work ethic. Now I know there's got to be a lot of smart and hard-working UAW members. To you I say it is not a nice time to be laboring under those conditions. But I recommend looking to the schools under any kind of Trade Act program to get re-trained.
Heck, with Obama, programs like the Trade Act are either continuing on or there's similar ones starting up. Don't wait for the axe to fall, get going with the pile of red tape(oh and there's lots of it, but you can mash through it and dot the proper i's and cross the proper t's)now!
What part of the Big 'B' do ya labor at, srs 49?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That's my feeling also. That's why i was trying to get a feel for how another union, like the SPEEA, was thought of.
Sounds to me like the strike could have been the union just testing it's muscle - you know, seeing if a strike would be effective, if they could force a better deal out of Boeing, that sort of stuff.
No, I don't work for Boeing. I'm at Northrop Grumman, but, back in the early 70's we were part of Westinghouse and I designed some of the electronics in the AWACS (E-3A) system. In support of that system, I made several visits to Boeing Field and Kent. We're still teamed with/sub-contracting to Boeing on numerous programs.
It worked, sort of. I think it did more harm than good, actually. The deal accepted was worth financially less than the initial Boeing offer. My SPEEA workmates listened to my pleas and the words were shunned like a Dennis Rodman jumper blocked by Shawn Kemp of the Seattle Sonics. Kemp was an amazing Supersonic. If not for Michael Jordan the Sonics would have been the 1996 NBA champions.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
RightO....been there...hated it and left, never to go back managing those folks.
>One lady got really reamed by the stewards for consistently producing too much product.
I got reamed for proving that a job takes only 25% of the time than was actually agreed upon as a standard time. One of the workers even chased me around the plant with an iron rod in his hand.
>The Democrats will throw them 30-40 billion (of your tax money making much less/hr. ) to have them float another year.
It is a signal and lifeboat for those who would rather leave now than be caught in the whirlpool of a sinking ship.
Of course, this being a role model thing can be a double edged sword. How do you expect US to be the rolemodel when UAW is still lurking around? UAW is one of the very existence that put a stain in US' reputation, as long as such tainted entity still exist and healthy (along with the other ones too), US "rolemodel" reputation goes kaboom.
Oh and btw, the very second you mentioned the possibilities of the Chinese attacking us, you're already referring to Dominance, not Rolemodel. Try not to twist your own words please.
So true and I totally agree with you and chikoo. Why bother with the headaches of making demands when other companies are willing to pay them more.
So, go ahead and pay more for UAW assemblers, and say bye-bye to the quality engineers. Btw, China's Chery and Hafei are looking for quality foreign engineers to develop their cars so they'd qualify for US standards, and trust me they pay foreign engineers a hefty sum. Any of the D3 engineers interested? :shades:
As for Boeing, I'm not in touch with the latest updates, but I recall someone trying to compare UAW workers with Boeing workers. That'll make the most ridiculous comparo ever. What's next? Comparing UAW assembly workers with NASA's shuttle assemblers? Insanity knows no boundaries :P :P :P
By an extreme comparison a UAW worker can be replaced any day, there are plenty more where they came from.
Different standards, I believe, and the stratospheric standard for delicate works such as welding planes is worthy of praise and high wages.
Or perhaps anyone here would like to suggest that car assembly is on equal footing with plane assembling? :P That'll be the joke of the day. :shades:
shoddy made steel and other goods for our construction projects here at home.
The currency issue I'm confident will be addressed but when tax payer dollars are being spent and the fact that the Europeans and Asians, are now crying foul over this provision well all that makes me happier than a pig in slop!!! They want to tariff our goods and require us to build a plant their to sell it there well we can and should do the same!!!!
Rocky, has mailed out several applications and resumes this past week. I still haven't heard officially if I have a job or not after tomorrow but all the signs I'm seeing are pointing in the wrong direction. :sick:
"The Rock"
No, wasn't tying to imply that at all. I guess what I wondering, and maybe using the SPEEA as an example, is "Is there a place for an organization that can negotiate on behalf of it's members/workers as a counterbalance to the power to hire-fire, maybe help negotiate wage standards, benefits, etc that is currently held by the corporation?"
While I mentioned wages, I really do think wages should be determined by performance. The (call it a union for lack of another word) would work with the company to establish a framework for performance evaluations, but the company, through it's performance appraisal system, would determine raises, bonuses, promotions, etc.
I am not advocating an organization that has the power to dictate the max number of lug nuts that a worker can install in an hour, or that a worker should be reclassified because he's now putting lug nuts on the left front tire as opposed to the right front tire. These kinds of onerous work rules that make it difficult/impossible for a company to have the flexibility needed to adapt to changing business needs or product lines is one of the things that gives unions like the UAW such a (deservedly) bad rap.
There is the NLRB, state labor boards and the court. Hardly a day goes by that you do not read about someone suing their company when they get fired. When I talk to someone that has been fired from more than one job, I have to question that person's work ethics. I worked for at least a dozen companies from high school to retirement over a 48 year span and was never laid off or fired. I did slack off a few times over the years. When we had management that was too stupid to know the difference. I think that could be one of the issues at the UAW.
I really do think wages should be determined by performance.
I agree with that. The Unions will fight that concept to the bitter end. They do not want anyone producing more than the least capable employee. That may be the biggest problem with Unions. Delphi allowing people to leave when they reached a minimal quota, just does not make sense to me. The machines should be set for the maximum an employee can produce. You don't keep up you don't get paid as much as the top guy. Piece work is what ran the Unions out of So CA. Why would a framer or sheet rocker want to work for Union scale when he could make more doing piece work?
But did he tell Pelosi and Reid? Apparently not.
And which Obama are we talking about? The one that said business and industry are the answer supplying jobs when he had his photoshoot after meeting with a _few_ business and industy leaders, was it Rockwell and IBM?
Or the Obama who said government has all the answers and the pork bill would spend money on the House majority's favorite pork with little stimulus?
I have no idea which was he's going to come down on his support in labor from the UAW. Will he support the car makers? Will he apply irrational CAFE standards to benefit the foreign makers who have lots of small car sales? Will he Support Gettelfinger? Will he say he supports things and then do differently, triangulation ala Clinton?
He has been very clear in saying things about education (not a federal issue--it's a state's issue) to suit the NEA. Will he bow to the UAW? He already implemented the CAFE standards, or did he start a plan?, I get confused.
I don't believe he can help the US makers without involving the foreign transplants in helping. They have been involved in the problem.
Will we see UAW workers protesting int he streets like in France?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I raised my hand about the very issue you guys were discussing above. I said something like this.
"Yeah, I have a question. Right now, there is no measurement system that evaluates our work perormance, except by our Lead's own initiative. If he wants to look in to how many drawings one of his people is doing he can. If he's busy with other things he won't. Has there been any talk from Boeing management about some kind of a performance system? One that would actually keep track of what each employee is producing?"
Now I wouldn't say to you guys that our Leads and Supervisors didn't know what we were responsible for at our Boeing job, and what our basic strengths and weaknesses were. But when I asked her that question I got a big smile back and this is what she said.
"Good question! You know, I'm gonna have to take that one back to the group and discuss it. You'd like to know if we have a pay-for-performance system going on here at Boeing?"
"Exactly. Some way of tracking production per employee. But not just how many drawings produced, but how many were checked and had no re-work. Maybe even comments from some of the system engineers on a particularly well-done job on a tough, long-worked project that was successfully completed, and on-time per schedule."
She looked at me, smiled, and said...."Great comments...I'll get back to you on this! We can follow up on it at a later meeting."
Ya know what? There was no later meeting and the issue died in the water like a standard Andrew Bynum jump shot.
So that's where that went. Boeing never touches that issue because of the SPEEA all-for-everyone unionized methodology. Boy, I wonder why I don't always see eye-to-eye with Unions.
So, when the grey suits, over Starbuck's and raspberry gloppy jelly donuts, decided to layoff 19 of the 21 Tech.Illustrators in the group I was in, not only did we have deaf ears to talk to at SPEEA (they are powerless to Boeing management during layoff periods) but there was no one in Boeing to talk to about being laid off. They'll just kindly give our workload to an outside Enginering outfit in Lynnwood, WA, headed up by, guess who? A former Boeing engineer...ready to sop that good stuff up from us! :mad:
My Lead simply said "I didn't see this one coming, sorry." Boeing had some 10B large in their bank at that time, but, bad boys Airbus were starting to eat our sales lunch. Oh-oh...time to get crazy paranoid on everyone. All the while two of the top Boeing execs were having affairs at work. While we slaved at our engineering drawings and talked about being laid off.
I talked to my main system engineer for Pitot-Static/Total Air Temperature, and he replied "Who's gonna do all of these drawings, then?" He had a look of despair and bewilderment.
"Oh, no problem, George, the Company has off-loaded my department's work to a group in Lynnwood. They know nothing about the job I've been doing for the last 12 years for you, but I'm sure they're all ears."
Incredible...Boeing figured in 2003 that saving our salary costs and paying an outside Engineering group half what they paid us was just hunky-dorey, knowing fully that the market was going to respond again. And that our work still had to be done in the meantime.
Boeing is the most paranoid, money-grubbing, ultra-conservative, stressed-out Company I have ever worked for. It's make hay while the sun shines there. The moment upper management feels that Airbus is getting the upper hand, it's time to lay your resources, your people, off.
And SPEEA is about as useful as #$$$ *& @ B**^ in these situations. What are my dues for then.
rockford, ya reading this, do you see why Unions might not be my particular cup a tea, buddy?
We are not in a union at the hospital I work at, and there is no talk of us unionizing, thank goodness. But a hospital in Benson, AZ, 35 miles west of us, now has the nursing staff unionized, Respiratory Therapy is not yet.
Show of hands for whoever wants union represention? Hey, iluv is just standing there, looking back at me and not raising his hand!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
On a negative note I was officially laid-off today and was told to not bother coming in. I know it was tough for my boss because we have became very close friends and both have a law enforcement background.
-Rocky
I cannot believe you do not see the part that the UAW has played in your inability to get a good job in Michigan. Not to worry. Obama has just about got the whole World stirred into WW3. That will pull us out of this recession.
The Sonics 18,000 seat Key Arena didn't have enough luxury seats. Oh well. Let's just let a blockhead from the Midwest fly in with 350M large ones and take away a team that started playing NBA ball up there in 1967, winning one Championship, in 1979.
But Clay told Howard Schultz, Starbuck's owner and the man selling the team, that he'll keep them in Seattle, don't worry about it.
David Stern, NBA Commish, thought that that lie wasn't enought to upset him. After all, Clay had quite possibly slipped him a few cool hundred grand to be his cheerleader for stealing the Sonics.
But this is about the UAW, and the Company's they "represent."
Can you all say union dues is what it's all about. Fat cows in charge of the union getting fatter while the little guys gets screwed.
rocky, please come on here and elaborate on why we all need big, powerful unions with sharp teeth, would you? Our patient is dying and needs some help.
Our patient is the U.S. standard working man and woman. Tell us how unions can help these people, in 100 words or less.
And I am sorry about your job, man. You know I've been dere be-fow.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Reading through the posts on this board, I have to say that there is no way we would have such a long, intense discussion on the role of unions in the auto industry (or any industry, for that matter) here in Japan. Don't get me wrong, the arguments are the same here too - but the "gap" is much much smaller. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that the compensation structure is not as skewed as it is in the US - Here a CEO is lucky if he can get 15x the minimum wage in his company, in the US it is regularly >400x. The Wall street saga is a case in point, where Wall street employees are feeling cheated out that tax payers are complaining about paying their bonuses which are 2x the average salary of the tax payer (who are funding the bonus). In most countries this would be seen as bizarre, but in the US this is a part of the American dream.
So my point is - The only way this debate can be resolved is - Decide on how much should a CEO be paid relative to the average salary in the company. If you think it is OK for this to be more than 100x, then Unions have no place in your economy. If it is more like 10x, then maybe Unions will work with management.
The CEO of ANA (a major Japanese airline) has reduced his compensation to 2x the average of his company (and is thus getting paid less than many senior employees like the Pilots), since the company is currently struggling. ANA is unionized, but I presume the union will be less militant in this case.
This of course does not mean that ANA is better managed than United or American. Just a different philosophy.
Non-union shops all across the U.S. have ideled plants, laid-off, shut the doors, thus I see them as a benefit because they are pushing the administration into protectionism which will create jobs at home once we slap a tariff on all imports and allow the entrepeneurs (small business) to compete on a level playing field with their corporate brothers who build crap oversea's!!!
Not to worry. Obama has just about got the whole World stirred into WW3.
Good!!! About time someone stood up to them and said enough is enough and if that results in WWIII I'm ready to gear up and serve my country!!! :mad:
That will pull us out of this recession.
Yeah, a good war with the world would employ lots of displaced autoworkers thus "bring it on"!!!! I'm ready for us to take over some of these nations anyways. We should start our first invasion by going south and conquering mexico so us midwest union folks have more opportunity for warmer climates when we get our company paid pensions and healthcare!!!!
-Rocky
Unions by nature are a leach. However we need a healthy host to suck the blood out of and the only way they can keep a healthy host is to protect it from foreign invaders. It takes a good management team to build products people want to buy to give the host the income to provide the blood the union needs. Unions, have raised the standard of income for the working class for generations and it wasn't until we got that senial actor in office from California, that things went to hell. Anyone who gives a tax break to offshore buisness should be tried and convicted of treason. The more american business=more taxes=balanced budget in as short of words I can describe it. Also remember the fact that we have lost so many manufacturing jobs both old school republicans and democrats agree that is a national security issue. Who else promotes "buy american" better than unions???
Is that a 100 words yet???? :P
-Rocky
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I know creating a crisis is needed to speed passage of bills without time to inspect them for the pork. I thought the current crisis talk was just to get pork bill passed under the name of stimulus and some other things done without question POTUS. How is WW3 coming? Or is that part of the crisis manufacure process.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I wonder if Oback complaining about Wall Street could be morphed into complaining about executive compensation period everywhere. That would help the UAW if the companies are under pressure at the top to leave more money for the worker bees. The current US auto industry compensation isn't at it robust heights right now, but it will be as things come back. Will Oback tie reduced UAW to reduced CEO bills?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Or about 1.5 times the average UAW line worker if you can believe the comments in here.
American policy has been begging for a war for 60 years...and Obama has nothing to do with it. I suspect a war wouldn't solve the economic maladies of today, anyway. There's just so much debt.
From elsewhere...salary limits for CEOs...that's an interesting idea, limit them to 20x the average worker or something....especially those being funded with bailout monies. Of course, with criminals like Geithner and Bernanke having power, that's a pipe dream, the inmates running the asylum.
Well I think you are right in line with Obama on that one. Though he could care less about your beloved UAW workers. He has a much wider vision for his power base. My guess would be, taking over Canada then working down through Mexico and South America. We will then have all the oil we need and can bankrupt the Arab countries. They will fall like dominoes. Rocky, You ever think of joining a Mercenary force?
-Rocky
ROTFLMAO!!!! HaHaHaHa!!!! I actually can't say I have gagrice. I thought you were going to say that with Obama, in power that we would take over North & South America, and the UAW, would be in charge of organizing the people into slave labor camps as the membership sucked down coffee and jelly doughnuts!!!! :P
-Rocky
You will be hard pressed to find a clean slate in the cabinet. Will Daschle get confirmed as that crook Geitner did? Maybe being an income tax evader himself, he will put a kinder face on the IRS :shades:
We are in for business as usual. All this saber rattling over buying American will fade into the halls of Congress. With GM having to pay most of the bailout money in taxes the UAW will be lucky to have 20 workers left in the Auto industry by 2010. We should start a pool as to when GM files for protection.
The smart UAW workers took the package, and spent the money on training for a good job. I doubt we see any more golden parachutes for the worker bees.
I love how the Dems assume that gaining 60 votes will make them filibusterer proof. There's blue-dog Dems and DINOs, not to mention that two of those votes are from independents. They wouldn't be Dems if they had a love fest going on.
But back to the topic, guess who's not completely convinced?
Corker has 'outstanding issues' with UAW concessions (Automotive News)
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Gregg's appointment to the post could give Obama and his Democratic Party a victory in the Senate, clearing the way for them to pass legislation without fear of a Republican filibuster.
EFCA, is just around the corner!!!
GOP governors press Congress to pass stimulus bill
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_go_pr_wh/stimulus_gop_governors
Obama=Bipartisan
-Rocky