By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
They have to live with the choices they make. Then for them to whine about "look they haven't been cut" is just silly. The UAW employee is by law represented by the UAW and the UAW is the sole negotiator on their behalf. Obviously they now are having remorse over their passing up the opportunity to have the uAW represent them.
This is the point I'm trying to make, you said everyone should be aspired to pursue their happiness without crushing other people's pursuit, which means you actually support this idea. However at the same time you bank on UAW to gain more while crushing engineers' goals.
Its not good to envy anyone or group. The company deals with each of the engineers/employees at will/UAW. To say that one getting more causes another to get less isn't fact. Unfortunately the UAW contract hasn't expired and then and only then does the UAW have to come back to the table. However, if the UAW feels it is in the best interest of the membership, they might go early into negotiations. I've been there and seen first hand that the UAW and companies have a great working relationship. To assume otherwise is just not prudent. The UAW has a fiduciary responsibility to the membership, to handle their issues. Same as the folks who invest your retirement funds, 401K funds, and other second party concerns. Then there are time which the UAW membership and company don't see things the same. Otherwise, its ironing out the rough spots and getting to business.
I agree absolutely. My oldest is graduating this May as a chemical engineer. Many of UAW's membership consists of engineers. Boeing and Bell Helicopter have their salary/white collar population unionized. They would have to go through their union to cut them, its just that simple. I have no idea where we seem to think that only UAW/blue collar workers are the only ones to join unions.
Fine, I rather pay $350/week for unemployment rather than $1,000+/week for an auto worker NOT NEEDED. I also rather the government pay for the reduced pension, rather then the government to pay GM for the UAW pension. And once anyone has personally gone bankrupt, they can probably get free medical care; otherwise you get the checkbook out for the medical, or have the bill collectors after you.
The fewer auto companies out there, the less consumer has, the less competition, the more the consumer pays.
There's plenty of competition even if GM and Chrysler go out tomorrow.
So u were that guy near Tony Luke's :P
j/k
Man, I miss his sandwiches
Who ever asserted to that aspect? The market controls the wages, not the employer, not the employee.
I discouraged my kids from pursuing an engineering career (even though it has been highly satisfying to me). One is a resident at the Mayo Clinic, and another is finishing up law school. My oldest son got a degree in Computer Engineering (despite his dad's suggestions) and is doing very well - so well in fact that he thinks he's underpaid at $80K/year and just being out of school 3 years or so.
Many of UAW's membership consists of engineers. Boeing and Bell Helicopter have their salary/white collar population unionized. They would have to go through their union to cut them, its just that simple. I have no idea where we seem to think that only UAW/blue collar workers are the only ones to join unions.
I agree, sort of. The Boeing engineers are represented by the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA), an affiliate of the AFL-CIO. Back in 1999-2000, they successfully struck the Boeing plants in the Seattle area (for 38 days, I believe), shutting down delivery of aircraft and forcing Boeing to concede on some of their issues (4% raise, no cutback in benefits, merit raises, and bonuses). I do not see how they could have accomplished that as individuals.
Although I am not privy to the current agreement between Boeing the the SPEEA, I would be very surprised if it has the number of work rules and potential for featherbedding that I understand the UAW contracts have. Also, the SPEAA was not striking a business or refusing to deal with one that is on it's death bed, as GMC/Chrysler seem to be.
not kicked out.. They opted out. Big difference.
>How do you support something that contradicts your own ideals? Makes no sense to me.
You r right....and DD1 lives in an idealist world because his back-end is not on fire.
Ohio teachers now pay just about the same as me, so anyone says they pay $20 per month as their co-pay for monthly medical premium is full of BALONEY.
During good times those folks get a little better than the UAW/union contract. If you don't believe this, your still living is the world of idealism/concept. Your not refuting the fact that union/UAW wages keep the prevailing wages up?
I find that all of the contracts have simular language on work rules. However, I've yet to see a copy of Boeing salaried contract. However, if you care to read it, use the link below. Highlights/changes are on the second link.
http://www.boeing.com/2008negotiations/01/speea_agreement.html
http://www.boeing.com/2008negotiations/05/index_speea.html
So just what is in 2200 pages of the UAW contract with GM? Our Teamster contract was about 28 pages long. I thought that was too much BS to be included. We had nothing that said we did not have to sweep the floor or change a light bulb if the boss wanted us to do that. If he wants me to sweep the floor for $38 per hour I do it and am thankful for the job. I just don't see the UAW members being thankful for what they have. Always wanting more. STRIKING GM this last year when they are bleeding red ink is not a Union that I would be part of.
Ours has keep your own work area clean, all of the employees have that except the executives.
So just what is in 2200 pages of the UAW contract with GM?
Its a contract and not War and Peace. I'm not going to read the contract unless I'm paid to do so. Thats my polocy. I don't know what on earth you are talking about as far as 2200 pages, I saw the national agreement and it about 140 paragraphs. So it would be 100 or so pages and then past practice would be 50 pages or so for each plant. Then they would have the skill trades contract. I bet they aren't 2200 pages all put together. Where ever did you get 2200 pages? Good Lord, they have to give each employee a copy. They would have to clear cut the Amazon if what you said was true.
http://local1166.org/national.aspx
http://media.gm.com/manufacturing/negotiations_update.html
Better get to clear cutting. As so often you shoot from the hip with no data to back up your posts. No wonder the workers have bad backs. Carrying their UAW contract around has to be the cause.
UAW contracts, then and now
By Patrick McIlheran of the Journal Sentinel
Jan. 6, 2009
It’s not just that labor costs at the Detroit Three are so high. It’s that the Detroit Three’s relationship with the United Auto Workers is so antithetical to innovation, flexibility or even common sense, say economists I talked to for my Sunday Journal Sentinel column.
One of them, Mark Perry, who teaches in Flint, had mentioned the remarkable example of the current UAW-Ford contract. It’s more than 2,200 pages long. It’s 12 inches tall.
And thanks to it, it's nearly impossible for Ford to do here what it is doing so profitably in Brazil, which is innovate.
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/12/22-pounds-of-uaw-rules-and-regulations.html
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/37141004.html
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1154327
Ever wonder what a UAW contract looks like? It is over 2200 pages and weighs 22 pounds. It no wonder the big three can not compete in the global market. Honda and Toyota don’t have to deal with that kind of crap.
http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/12/12/the-350-billion-uaw-bailout.html
No. I am not. And therein lies the crux of my argument. Unions serve a purpose, which is to balance the forces of the employer. It cannot be greater than the employer and vice versa. Employers and employees are there to serve a common cause - Fulfill market requirements. Neither the employer nor the employees can look at only their monetary needs and be satisfied with it. Right now, the union is apparently more powerful than the employer and on top of that, unwilling to face the realities of the market requirements. The employer is heavily under debt, needs a bailout from the government, but still not willing to (a)Improve quality (b)Improve Productivity i.e more production for the same pay in order to be more competitive. Specifically, GM is a mess. The management is as much to blame for the mess as is the Union. The former for getting in the mess, the latter for not acknowledging the mess and willing to get the company out of the mess. Both of them have to understand that if the company does not survive, both of them will be left standing in the cold, while the industry moves on.
By the way, it is not "Your". It is "You are" :sick: I did not expect this silly mistake from a person as learned as yourself.
Your on a fools errand. Its about an inch thick..............lol.
I showed the proof, yours is just opinion.
Back in the day everyone was fat and happy and got what they wanted. Now the company cannot take a long strike just to get necessary concessions to match the competitive climate. If you want your bread buttered in good times then you have to be willing to go to dry toast in the tough times.
If the UAW does not help the companies heal they all will fail. It seems the companies will do all they can to stay alive but the UAW is willing to lock the doors on their way out. The Union should NEVER be more powerful than the company. Stockholder interest is protected by the management, not the workers. With junk bond status, the stockholders have spoken.
To bargain/represent the membership.
Right now, the union is apparently more powerful than the employer and on top of that, unwilling to face the realities of the market requirements.
It may be in fact true. They have a co-dependency.
Both of them have to understand that if the company does not survive, both of them will be left standing in the cold, while the industry moves on.
Why do you think that the negotiating committee would inform you prior to informing the membership? Will they invite you when the membership vote on any proposal? You speak as if you have knowledge of the situation. Trust me when I tell you that you only know what the corporate owned media tells you and or what they are told. All your dealing with is rumor, that is unless there is a leak. There are members who would like to know how things are going. But whats on the table one day well be off the table on another day.
This site has links to the 1000's of pages. Take a look. I haven't yet read all of them.
http://www.1800blogger.com/2008/12/14/22-pounds-of-uaw-work-rules-and-regulation- s/
- There are over 50 pages alone devoted to rules about Shop Committees, Grievances, and minutes needed at meetings. Lots of detailed roles, rules for operation, required documentation, etc. It's not so much unreasonable as just that all of this stuff is written down in copious detail. Of course whatever is written has to be followed, and that means everybody involved needs to know this stuff.
- This book is loaded with rules affecting most union employees. How much time is consumed just having xx,000 employees read through a 900 page document?
- Much of the document is from what I would call (from a non-union environment) - the "HR rules" - benefits details, education/tuition assistance, pay scales, vacation time, etc.
- It is striking how much has to be spelled out. As an example, in most non-union workplaces an employer makes a general statement about the company policy to be safe and obey all local and federal laws. In this document everything is spelled out - the safety roles, titles, what each person has to do, what to document, how to complain, how often to inspect, who goes on inspection, etc.,etc. Very cumbersome. Multiply that times tens of other activities like hiring, firing, promotions, scheduling vacations, notifying employees, etc., and you have these intricate details.
It appears that the high detail level is required when the relationship is less trusting. Everybody's tasks and roles are defined. I could imagine executing an activity such as safety inspections while holding and reading the book to make sure I follow all of the rules.
A sample nugget in a section regarding the introduction of new technology:
“A review of anticipated equipment and/or processes with the shop committee, the LJHSC, and the JEIT will be held. The LJHSC and, when appropriate, the JEIT, may be required to travel to vendors, plants, or other locations to participate in a design review of such equipment or processes as outlined in the DHS specification and the ergonomics Design Process (EDP-21).”
While most of this content has good intent, the end result is cumbersome complexity run amok, causing a huge loss of productivity. In a more trusting environment I could see the same thing accomplished with a 50 page employee handbook.
After many month of fighting the person got his job back and was determined that the supervisor should not have left that person alone as stated in contract and the line next to it should have been turned off ( that would have shut down main trim) as was stated over the radio but the supervisor disregarded saftey prodical as well as did the maint. person for not demanding that the line next to be turned off.
After all was said and done the supervisor got a slap on wrist and was told don't do that again
Regards,
OW
I skimmed through it a bit. Looks like over 80% of the contract covers basic H&R issues such as vacations, sick leave, holidays, pay, investment plan, retirement plan, etc. The benefits stated do not seem too different from those provided to professionals by my company (another major defense/aerospace contractor). In fact, in at least one area - vacation - ours is superior to what Boeing gives it's professionals. The one area that the SPEEA contract addresses that we do not have is some definition of what happens when a reduction in force (RIF) is needed.
I did not see, however, much in the line of work rules - just some general language defining job classifications.
I thought the GM white collars were already paying their own health care. Another thing that has not been pointed out here. Under the Obama plan those working will have to pay a monthly premium. The only free lunch is for those considered poverty level. So the UAW worker will pick up his own health care and a few of the 46 million uninsured. Anyone that thinks otherwise is delusional. My current $126 per month for Medicare, that I paid for during much of my 46 year career, is cheap compared to what Obama will nick the worker bees.
Salaried retirees pay their own healthcare supplement once they reach 65. Current employees do pay for some of the insurance but, like most companies, do not pay all.
The contract in question is the current Ford UAW contract. It is over 2200 pages and weighs in at 22 lbs. This in spite of the fact the DD is in denial. The problem with that contract and other UAW contracts is they are not only designed to protect workers against unfortunate instances, like you have given us, they are also blocking progress needed to be competitive in the 21st century. The UAW is still living in the 1950s. They are too blind to their own greed to realize that many of the million plus jobs that are lost were caused by their own repressive contracts. In the case studied by the media and Congress it is the new state of the art facility that Ford has built in Brazil. That 22 lb contract made it impossible to build that factory in the USA and employ UAW workers. The UAW is their own worst enemy.
As you have pointed out. 1000s of pages of work rules cannot replace common sense. All those pages of rules did not protect that worker from losing a leg. Safety should be an ongoing thing. We had one paragraph in our contract on safety. It said the Tech in charge will conduct a safety meeting once per week and send the safety form to the supervisor. Our job required lots of ladder time and climbing towers down to 35 below zero temps. We never had a med-i-vac or serious injury in the 25 years I worked there.
You just gotta believe that both the Union and the Managements of the D3 have scores, if not hundreds of persons, some full time and some part time, maybe many lawyers, that they have to have on role that laboriously work on the draft versions for the next contract. Then, there are the specialists and experts at the car companies that have to be knowledgeable on the parts of the contract for which they are responsible. Add to that the extra time that many process engineers and every manager and supervisor, that works with UAW members, have to study and have detailed knowledge of the details lest the UAW file a grievance for some infraction of the minutia of those 2200 pages. What an incredible waste of resources.
Heck, it's only 1/8th of the US tax code!!
http://www.uaw.org/contracts/03/gm/gm12.cfm
The UAW has taken a strong stand against the use of certain rewards and incentives used to bribe and coerce workers to discourage the reporting of work-related injuries or illnesses. With the union’s strong urging, the corporation has strengthened its position against the use of any monetary or tangible reward system which could discourage such reporting. The corporation also agreed to continue the reporting of near-miss incidents under the no discipline provisions previously agreed upon.
I think rewarding people for working safe and not reporting every little cut, bruise or sniffle is a good thing. I know British Petroleum implemented a safety rewards plan to help cut the cost of Workmen's Comp claims. The first year every worker in Prudhoe got a check for about $25,000. Working safe is each person's responsibility to himself and those around him. You cannot write enough pages in a contract to guarantee that kind of behavior. It looks to me like the UAW is just looking for loopholes to protect accident prone people. Best remedy is to get rid of them before they hurt themselves or someone else.
Every day on this thread I see the UAW digging themselves a deeper pit to fall into. They are not the kind of workforce that made this country great.
I don't even understand the context of this comment. It appears that you are hurting and lashing out with no apparent intentions.
>Will they invite you when the membership vote on any proposal?
All I can say is if this is the speed with which UAW will react to a dire situation, and where their support and involvement are needed and fast, it only speaks of their productivity on the work floor :sick: I guess it does require 6days and 6 UAW guys to change a light bulb
What fact? That UAW keep prevailing wages up? FOR WHO? Surely not for the good ol' engineers and designers who actually deserve much more for their hard work (ones that require actual brains, education, degree and skills)
No, it's so easy to see that UAW keep prevailing wages up for themselves.
You blame others for not having a union to fight for their wages? Well, first off, they shouldn't need unions because they're the true assets for the company, and the country. I can see why those workers really insist on a union, because otherwise they will have to settle for what they're actually worth.
You keep twisting reality to support your own words, and I don't care, you have the right to do so. But please don't think we're that shallow either. We can still see what's behind the UAW mask.
And you still can't admit that your utopian ideals contradicts your very support for UAW. The UAW indirectly crush the other workers' pay, those that actually deserve it. That's the reality and you say it's ok to pursuit your goals as long as it DOES NOT crush other's pursuit. And now you twist it again with "it's their mistake and they have to live with it"?
I ask you once again: since when not joining the union is classified as a mistake? who are you to decide that?
Well I will keep you guys posted. I got to go cover the VUE, I sold!!!!
-Rocky
If you don't believe just how careful these workers have to be, fine, come to Seattle and I'll show it to you. In comparison Fairfax is no more than kid's toyshop.
UAW Jobs Banks Gone From Big Three
just want you wish you the very best and hope your situation improves.
God bless you,
Dewey
I believe it was was because Dallasdude in post 8473 said "Many of UAW's membership consists of engineers. Boeing and Bell Helicopter have their salary/white collar population unionized."
Sure do... in the short run. The wages stay up until:
1. The jobs are sent somewhere where the labor is cheaper.
2. The workers are replaced with machines which can perform the work more efficiently.
3. The resulting impact of high wages on product cost makes the product uncompetitive and the company goes bankrupt.
Yup... The UAW keeps the prevailing wages up in the short run.
You keep wishing for that. When some other country attacks us (China???) and you're living like they do over there, you can thank your lowest standard of living on that "lower standard of living" you were hoping for.
If we expect the USA to stay dominant, we must stay strong in many ways, INCLUDING having a formidible tax base.
Mabe you would've preferred we waved the white flag after Pearl Harbor???
No, it's so easy to see that UAW keep prevailing wages up for themselves."
Hey, if the good ol' engineers and designers want more, want what they desrve, they can COLLECTIVELY STAND UP and ask for it.
Otherwise, they can INDIVIDUALLY sit in their cubicles and stew.
US's dominance is slipping, fast, and everybody knows that. The heck do I care, all I care is for our country to remain healthy, not dominant. Not to stray into politics but you want dominance? That'll only add more enemies to our country, and we already have way too many enemies, enemies that CAN destroy our economy at will.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be on the extreme here, favoring US supremacy no matter the cost. The only way to do this is world domination, a ridiculous prospect. This idea can't apply in the global market, and the only ideas I've seen so far from you lead to self isolation of USA.
And what the hell does this have to do with Pearl? I'm starting to miss your point here.
Shareholders want an ever increasing return on their stock. Same return every years is considered dead stock :sick:
C-level officers bonus is also tied to Share performance.
Hmm....Now how does the c-level increase their income year after year?
How do they also provide for ever ever increasing labor wages?
How can they do that? By reducing costs & showing better stock performance.
How do they reduce costs? Of course they cannot reduce UAW wages. So they ship the jobs overseas or pay their vendors cheaply.
What happens to the real middle class i.e. the engineers? They are neither UAW nor C-level. They get squished.
End result? Cheap, ineffective product and tooling design. Added on to the fact that the guys who are assembling it are not going to put any extra effort to improvise the design, as it is not their job.
Like I said before, there is no way out except C11 reorganization.
The world has to begin again. It is natures law. Every so many centuries/eons , life starts all over again be it Ice age or be it a meteor hit or be it a Nuclear World War. This has been written in age old manuscripts too.
D3 have to come to face this reality. D3 have to start fresh. It cannot start with a contaminated base i.e. same people doing the same things. No way.
-Rocky
Nope. They don't stew. They leave.
If you don't pay the good engineers what they're worth, they go to other companies who will pay them more for their skills and the cars you're slapping together get designed by the ones who aren't good enough to get jobs elsewhere.
Then you can do a lovingly perfect job of assembling Pontiac Azteks, et al.
We won WWII because our industrial base was better at manufacturing than our enemies..... short term victory. The labor shortages caused by the war were about the best thing that ever happened to organized labor.
But the Japanese were forced by WWII to reexamine their industrial processes... and they altered their way of doing things after they were defeated in the war. Yup.
Their defeat resulted in great improvements and made them better off in the long run.
Perhaps GM would be better off to lose this industrial war so that they can start over too?