My first divorce attorney charged me $200 an/hr. and my last one charged me the same and neither of these liars did anything to benefit me besides steal $10K from me and the corrupt justice system in Texas, is now trying to throw out my divorce case unless their is good cause in writing why it should continue. If you don't believe me dieselone, you can send me a private email along with your address and I'll send you a copy!!! Anyways my former liar was so nice to foward that letter to me. So don't tell me how they don't charge $200 an/hr. and how UAW, workers don't work and still get paid because attorney's have been doing this for years yet they are looked upon by society with not as much disgrace as UAW workers!!! :sick:
The compensation with wages and beenfits is yes $55 an/hr. for 2009. The D3, and other media outlets tried saying it was $73 an/hr. and of course Glen Beck, said it was $154 an/hr. and people like Marsha7 and gagrice, suck that propaganda up like Hogs eating slop!!! :sick:
I think you'd agree, though, that if we see this sort of violence in our streets, the rioters will be middle class citizens infuriated that their tax dollars are subsidizing failing corporations. The targets of their wrath will be incompetent auto industry execs, corrupt union bosses & the lefty politicians who sleep with them.
I didn't say anything about not charging $200/hr. I said an attorney on average makes no where near $200/hr. That $200/hr is going to the law office to pay for the rent, the computers, the secretary, the paralegal, the lawyer the utilities etc. Plus during an 8-12 hour day, no way does an attorney bill 8-12 hours of time. I've done lots of work in the service industry. When I was in advertising, our rate was around $150/hr, that was nearly 10 years ago. No one in the agency made anywhere near $150/hr. That type of logic is not different than me telling you the car salesmen just made $25k off me because I wrote you a $25k check for the Malibu you sold me.
The compensation with wages and beenfits is yes $55 an/hr. for 2009. The D3, and other media outlets tried saying it was $73 an/hr. and of course Glen Beck, said it was $154 an/hr. and people like Marsha7 and gagrice, suck that propaganda up like Hogs eating slop!!! :sick:
I think those inflated hourly rates of $75-154/hr were calculated by adding total retiree costs into the equation. So if you take GM's total costs for current and retired union employees then divide it by actual hourly employee hours worked, then you get a number of $150-170/hr. Which is probably a real number since that is an actual cost GM has.
"..... He's entitled to what Delphi paid him under the UAW contract and nothing more."
Would that not include, under the UAW contract, the provisions provided for in retirement, EVEN IF that means the "healthcare for life", and nothing more?
".....I've had various jobs where I saved my employer money by catching errors and/or helped land a big project. I'm not entitled to anymore $ just for doing what I was hired for."
Now, I understand that you can't get blood from a stone in either situation, your's or Rocky's dad's, but how would you feel if you saved your employer a significant sum of money, and as thanks they CUT your pay 15%?
What's fair is fair. Both you and Rocky's dad are entitled to what you and your respective employers AGREED upon.
".....I remember buying a new car when I was only making $14/hr."
I got ya beat!!! I bought an '86 S-10 brand new for $7,000 making $4.25/hr. Payments-$123.02/mo (OK, daddy paid the insurance on it, and slid me a $20 every now and then, but I paid for it)!!!!
".....This doesn't just go for the UAW, but for for all people who work in manufacturing; if you're making something that someone else can copy and the skill is to turn a wrench or screwdriver, or push a few buttons on a machaine, you're in trouble! Even at 415/hr plus benefits - you're in trouble!"
All the more reason to put safeguards in to protect the American Standard of Living!!! I don't think it is limited to just manufacturing, either. Even knowledge based jobs that require a degree can be done FAR CHEAPER over there. Even with your companies patented formulae, there is nothing stopping them from packing up and moving to India, and developing and manufacturing their products there, for pennies on the dollar.
Not only is the labor cheaper, but I'm sure the envoronmental regulations are far less stringent.
I say we work to keep America as American as possible. If they want the work, after we are employed, let them COME HERE and do it.
but how would you feel if you saved your employer a significant sum of money, and as thanks they CUT your pay 15%?
That would depend on the total situation of my employer. If I thought it was unfair/unjust, I'd be pissed as hell, but I wouldn't [non-permissible content removed] or moan on this board about it, I'd be busy sending out resume's and calling contacts.
Would that not include, under the UAW contract, the provisions provided for in retirement, EVEN IF that means the "healthcare for life", and nothing more?
Yes, unless the company can't afford it. My wife's job privides medical coverage during retirement. But I understand that is only the case if the company is still in business and able to pay and we take that into consideration. IMO, nothing is guaranteed. We are saving for retirement and planning with the idea that healthcare may or may not be employer provided. Same goes for Social Security. We save/invest a sizable amount each month. If we still end up flat broke it will be our own fault, not the governments, not some greedy capitalist, and not even the boogeyman in the closet.
Are you telling me your dad did not get paid while laid off?
Yeah he did but the term of collecting subpay only lasted so long.
I broke $100k twice in 37 Years working in Alaska. I got a nice $15K added to my 401K when I retired. All of which is gone because of a lame bunch in Congress the last several years.
And you want americans to use this 401K system for retirement. What would of happened if you didn't have a define benefit pension plan???? I guess you wouldn't be knocking down Martini's in Hawaii, eh???.....Also excuse me the congress before this one ran this economy in the ground by doing nothing to stop the housing bubble that was ready to burst!!!
So I am assuming your dad was further down the totem pole than the forklift operator that went into bankruptcy when his wages went below $105K per year?
My father didn't work gobs of overtime nor has he ever lived beyond his means. His final year of working he only made $62K and retired as a job setter making $29 an/hr.
You still cannot grasp the reality of the guys working around you on the job. How much does the janitor get at the car dealers you worked for. If someone in your town is willing to sweep the floor for $8 per hour that is what that job is worth...
It's been years since GM, has had in-house janitors. Even so not one of the plants here in Western Michigan, has ever lost money!!!
You are really dreaming if you think all those multi millionaires in Congress are going to shoot themselves in the foot. Eight of the top ten richest Senators are Democrats. Last time I looked. You think Kerry the richest is going to screw up his fat cat lifestyle with a realistic tax code that targets his demographic. It was guys like your dad and myself that are paying the bill. The upper middle class are the ones to be targeted.
I doubt 8 of the top 10 are democrats. Kennedy, Kerry-is through marriage because of Heinz. Ummm who are these other 6 wealthy democrat senators???
Lastly can you give me ONE year out of the last 30 that GM made a decent profit on North American vehicle sales? My guess is NO. It has been pointed out that GM sold most of the real money maker, GMAC. 2007 arguably the best year ever for vehicle sales in the USA, and GM lost billions, while Toyota made billions.
I guess you want me to go look that up??? They made money in the 90's when gas was cheap and Clinton, had the economy running like a well oiled machine!!!
Thanks for the list gagrice, but that data is like 6 years old and congress has changed a few times since then.
That is just not the truth. You have been spoon fed those stories by the UAW workers that would like to believe that a profit can be made with high priced labor.
Delphi Coopersville, made almost $150 million dollars a year. Delphi's Wyoming, MI. plant made $40 million a year in the 1980's but because of the loose work rules and slashing a workforce from 2300 in the 1970's and 80's to a workforce of 700 via automation well that plants profits tripled also and is why GM, is looking to purchase the valve lifter plant back from Delphi!!! That is the truth as it's been reported on the news and print!!!
SO the total profit for GM from 1985 to 2006 was $59B. They have lost more than that since 2007. This report was from August of 2008. Another report says that $47B is paying the legacy costs since 2007.
So with a larger workforce with restrictive workrules and more domestic content they were profitable and with looser union rules, automation, wage and benefit cuts, they lose money!!! The bottom line is you can't have a out of control unregulated capitalistic society and expect a positive end!!!
So with a larger workforce with restrictive workrules and more domestic content they were profitable and with looser union rules, automation, wage and benefit cuts, they lose money!!! The bottom line is you can't have a out of control unregulated capitalistic society and expect a positive end!!!
I'm sure losing market share every year and increasing retirees to support has nothing to do with it. Many of those billions prior 2006 were from GMAC.
Just looking at Chevy alone gives part of the answer. In 1980 Chevy sold over 2.2 million cars. I believe these are cars only. By 2000 that number was down to around 550,000.
1980 Oldsmobile sold nearly 1 million and we know where those sales are now.
I think he might have a special keyboard with those tripple punctuation marks in a single keystroke I'm generally not against using those for emphasis, BUT IF EVERY SINGLE WORD IS SCREAMED AT YOU LIKE IT WAS A DIVINE REVELATION, it loses any impact or credibility it might otherwise have. :sick:
Even knowledge based jobs that require a degree can be done FAR CHEAPER over there.
Certainly many people around the world are intelligent, but for various reasons they do not stay in their own countries; they do come to the U.S. and other developed countries.
Even with your companies patented formulae, there is nothing stopping them from packing up and moving to India, and developing and manufacturing their products there, for pennies on the dollar.
My company sent some low-tech products to China and hired 10 people to make product. That lasted for about 1 year, at which point we brought production back. Logistics and the cost of a 2nd production facility (supervisor, building, bribes, long shipping distances) offset any savings of a few operators here.
We also don't trust anyone outside the developed countries where the legal system protects intellectual rights. We did and do not provide formulae to Indian or Chinese plants; they would get chemicals premixed and shipped from the U.S. poured.
Just looking at Chevy alone gives part of the answer. In 1980 Chevy sold over 2.2 million cars. I believe these are cars only. By 2000 that number was down to around 550,000.
Yep, Chevy sold 2.29 million cars for model year 1980. And that was a bad year for the industry, as sales were down considerably compared to the 1977-79 period. Now to be fair, the 1980 numbers were inflated by the Citation, which came out extra early in April 1979, and went on to sell over 800,000 cars all by itself.
Rounding out the list, I think Pontiac was around 650-700K, and considered a bit of a loser even at that level! I think Cadillac moved around 250-300K units. And I'm sure that if you threw in Chevy and GMC trucks, that would be good for around another 1-1.25 million?
Oldsmobile broke 1 million cars in 1977 mostly on the strength of the Cutlass Supreme. Seemed like everybody and his brother had a Cutlass Supreme back then.
Why shouldn't a floor sweeper make $35 an/hr. Marsha7???? Your average liar I mean lawyer makes $150-300 an/hr. but because he went to school for 6 years on how to manipulate the system you some how can justify his/hers wages yet feel a bluecollar worker isn't worth crap because some illegal alien or chinamen is willing to do it for less.
Never thought I'd be defending a lawyer, but here goes. Whatever a lawyer's hourly rate is, they make that solely because someone (a client) thinks they are worth that amount of money. Nobody is forcing anyone to use a $300/hr lawyer rather than one that charges $100/hr. When someone's backside is on the line (think OJ Simpson), and they can afford it, almost any fee is worth staying out of the slammer. That's why some lawyers (though certainly not all) make the high hourly rates you referred to.
And yes, he/she went to college for 6 or more years and passed the bars and all that does is give them the right to hang out a shingle saying "lawyer for hire". It does not guarantee them anything! So the risk they take is all their's.
I can see your point. If I was about to go away for life, I'd want the best lawyer I could find versus some green public defender fresh out of community college law school.
Never thought I'd be defending a lawyer, but here goes. Whatever a lawyer's hourly rate is, they make that solely because someone (a client) thinks they are worth that amount of money. Nobody is forcing anyone to use a $300/hr lawyer rather than one that charges $100/hr
Yeah, I can't believe I'm defending them either even though I have several good friends that are lawyers. Anyway, yes, I'd be willing to pay $300/hr to get top notch legal counsel. No way in hell would I pay someone $35/hr to sweep the floors in my house (okay, maybe if she showed up in a french maid outfit! LOL)
If the UAW was really progressive as they would have US believe, they would implement a quota system that rewards hard workers and punishes a slackard. There is nothing wrong with a merit system. The Unions historically fight that trying to make everyone equal. Not all people are equal. They deserve an equal right to excel and be rewarded accordingly.
he/she went to college for 6 or more years and passed the bars
Not any easy task to accomplish. The Smartest Woman in the World flunked the Washington DC bar exam. Gave up and went to Arkansas where she was able to pass the test. If the ABA was as powerful as the UAW she would not have to suffer that humiliation. Just pass the DNA test for UAW blood lines and you get the BIG BUCKS with little or no skills or education at all.
I never thought I would live to see the day that someone actually understood that lawyers are only worth what a client may or may not pay...some of us who lead sheltered lives cannot comprehend capitalistic principles...:):):)... :P
No matter how you slice it, floor sweepers are not worth $35/hour...that dog won't hunt...the only skill necessary for floorsweeping is a properly funtioning cerebellum so that you are sufficiently coordinated to stand up...altho that French Maid outfit may raise the going rate somewhat...
Just like buggy whip makers had it made "forever" until the public no longer needed horses for transportation, the UAW had it made for unskilled workers until the curtain was pulled back and others showed up and did it better...UAW could have changed, made Big 3 more efficient, and competed adequately with Honda and Toyota...but they fought progress with stupid restrictive work rules, brainwashed everyone in Detroit that floorsweeping required highly developed skills, and thereby drove their employers (GM/Ford/Chrysler) into the ground...
Even in bankruptcy, they cannot see what floorsweepers really are...one really has to wonder if people leave their basic intelligence at home when they join the UAW, because what they think of themselves, compared to what they really are, is about as different as Mercury and Neptune (since Pluto is no longer a planet anymore... :confuse: )
Sanity will prevail, simply because the market will speak on its own, regardless of any bailout or words from Obama...
At my company, professionals have been on an all merit raise plan for over 25 years now. Since that started, professionals have not received a single cost-of-living-adjustment (COLA), step, longevity, or any other regularly scheduled raise.
When done right and implemented fairly, the better workers percolate to the top of the pay ranges, and the slackers sink to the bottom. If we're lucky, they take the hint and seek employment elsewhere.
That's not to say that it's perfect, but neither is the raise system a union wants to see, where the raises are based almost exclusively on longevity, learning to tie one's shoe, etc.
A reporter is looking to speak to consumers who purchased a domestic vehicle in the past and got burned (poor quality, reliability, etc) and will no longer purchase a domestic car again. Please send your daytime phone number to ctalati@edmunds.com by Thursday, March 12, 2009.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
When done right and implemented fairly, the better workers percolate to the top of the pay ranges, and the slackers sink to the bottom. If we're lucky, they take the hint and seek employment elsewhere.
My company subscribes to the Jack Welch GE style of management where employees are ranked and the bottom 10% is constantly being churned, laying off people out one door and hiring in another door.
In fact, my business area was just hit with about a 10% cut and we won't miss a beat. As long as the bottom 10% are cut with the only regards to their work, it works wonders, and everyone is a VERY motivated employee after, brutal, but very effective.
My question to you is who is sweeping floors for $35 an/hr. as you keep referencing that with the UAW???? I don't know any UAW worker today making $35 an/hr. sweeping floors and I know you are trying to insult every UAW job classification!!!! Toyota, is paying almost as much as the Big 3 in wages and benefits thus your point is???
Customers have been silently "rioting" for the past 20+ years by purchasing a Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW or Benz product instead of a vehicle produced by the domestics. But lots of people prefer to ignore this.
Well they might of had a good reason back 20 or 30 years ago but to keep your head in the sand and believe the D3's quality isn't on par or better than the imports in this day in age is truly utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P
I'm not so sure. Had to replace the front rotors on my 2005 Dodge Dakota in less than 12,000 miles. I don't think that is indicative of a quality product.
I am sure these $28 per hour janitors have a package with benefits way over $35 per hour. Question is did GM get the UAW to dump the janitors in 2007 to be replaced by nonunion janitors? If not the janitors are over paid for the market and part of the reason jobs are going elsewhere.
The unstated threat: If the workers reject GM’s proposals, production of the automaker’s 2009 Cobalt model might move to Mexico.
If the union allows it, True North could generate big savings. According to a source, the company wide use of nonunion janitors—who would earn about $12 per hour instead of $28 per hour—alone could save GM $300 million to $500 million a year.
Now here is a switch. Instead of sitting around waiting for something to break the Skilled workers will sweep the floors for the same big bucks of course.
Those workers also agreed that skilled-trades workers would assume additional duties, such as sweeping the floors, without any change in pay.
Toyota, is paying almost as much as the Big 3 in wages and benefits thus your point is?
The point is GM is paying $1500 to $3000 per vehicle in health care for retirees. Toyota was not so stupid as to sign onto a deal like that. Not entirely the UAWs fault though they had to know as market share tumbled over the last 20 years it would come back to bite them in the butt.
The question is: could GM make a decent profit over 5% if they did not have those legacy costs to deal with? So far this year GM is only holding onto 18.8% of the total US market. Will the UAW let go of the retirees health care to save GM?
Will the UAW let go of the retirees health care to save GM?
And that, is the ten million (or is it billion?) dollar question.
I think no matter what happens the retirees are going to be shopping for new health care plans, with most of them probably ending up on Medicare. The existing level of benefits are simply not sustainable if the D3 are to survive. And if GM or Chrysler goes C11, that's what will happen anyway 'cause the gov't isn't going to fund a gold-plated health care plan for UAW retirees while telling the rest of the country how great Medicare is.
Now to be fair, the 1980 numbers were inflated by the Citation, which came out extra early in April 1979, and went on to sell over 800,000 cars all by itself.
And right there were 800,000 seeds for future foreign auto buyers.
>We also don't trust anyone outside the developed countries where the legal system protects intellectual rights. We did and do not provide formulae to Indian or Chinese plants; they would get chemicals premixed and shipped from the U.S. poured.
I don't know why someone wouldn't trust them with the formulae and intellectual properties. Grin. Clinton gave the rocket secrets...
No. Just 799,999 as far as I know. My best friend had a 1980 Citation that went 195K miles and took him through high school, college, graduate school, and 1 year into his marriage. He currently owns a Corvette and a Tahoe.
that UAW floorsweepers, for the last 20 years, have not been paid $15/hour, which is still twice what the job is worth...Between pay and benefits, are you saying $35/hour is wrong???...and if wrong, if only by a buck or two, that means nothing...
The point is that the huge cost structure built inot the system by the way the UAW operates has been a major drain on profitability for many years...like it or not, the unskilled work they do simply is not worth what they get paid, and the market pendulum is finally noticing that...
Maybe the pay structure would not be so bad if the cars were of superior quality, but they are not...too many posters here have stated serious problems that would cause any normal person to change brands...when you realize that the same people make a GM, Ford or Dodge, it becomes readily apparent that the only way to eliminate the union labor factor is to seek out brands that avoid the union and the union mentality...
Maybe the average buyer is unaware that UAW people make the Big 3 cars, but after one has been burned by a Ford, then a GM, it doesn't take long before the buyer is now turned off to domestic carmakers...once they buy Honda or Toyota, it will be a rare person who switches back, as the quality difference is readily apparent if one will only look...
Even our improved models (CTS, Malibu) get compared to the imports simply because the imports set the standard for quality; the only thing set by the UAW vehicles is the lowest possible common denominator...and they brought it all onto themselves...
There is a new book written by William J. Holstein called WHY GM MATTERS. Many in this group should get it and read it ,it'll correct many of the misconceptions posted here about GM and the UAW. Talks very candid about GM's operations worldwide. It points out the good and bad that GM and the UAW has done. It also clears up the misconceptions that many people have that just because they purchase a Toyota or Honda ,etc. assembled in the U.S., that is good. It turns out that GM ,Ford and Chrysler provide way more jobs for Americans here in the U.S. both union and non-union jobs ,directly and indirectly then all the foreign car makers combined that assemble some of their cars here in the U.S.
If people are satisfied with their current vehicle, they aren't inclined to switch brands. It's up to rival car makers to make a case as to why they should switch brands, and, "You need to switch because our head office is based in the U.S.," isn't going to get many people to abandon their current vehicle.
For that matter, "We're now just as good as Brand X," isn't a compelling reason to switch for many people, especially when Brand X has a much longer history of delivering consistently reliable, well-made products.
Looks like we lost another one. I was looking at a pair of Fiskars hedge trimmers this morning. They are now made in China. All the scissors and clippers I now have were made in the USA. I guess I will live with the old hedge shears and go get them sharpened. Time is running out for the UAW and GM. Won't be long now.
Comments
The compensation with wages and beenfits is yes $55 an/hr. for 2009. The D3, and other media outlets tried saying it was $73 an/hr. and of course Glen Beck, said it was $154 an/hr. and people like Marsha7 and gagrice, suck that propaganda up like Hogs eating slop!!! :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
I think you'd agree, though, that if we see this sort of violence in our streets, the rioters will be middle class citizens infuriated that their tax dollars are subsidizing failing corporations. The targets of their wrath will be incompetent auto industry execs, corrupt union bosses & the lefty politicians who sleep with them.
I didn't say anything about not charging $200/hr. I said an attorney on average makes no where near $200/hr. That $200/hr is going to the law office to pay for the rent, the computers, the secretary, the paralegal, the lawyer the utilities etc. Plus during an 8-12 hour day, no way does an attorney bill 8-12 hours of time. I've done lots of work in the service industry. When I was in advertising, our rate was around $150/hr, that was nearly 10 years ago. No one in the agency made anywhere near $150/hr. That type of logic is not different than me telling you the car salesmen just made $25k off me because I wrote you a $25k check for the Malibu you sold me.
The compensation with wages and beenfits is yes $55 an/hr. for 2009. The D3, and other media outlets tried saying it was $73 an/hr. and of course Glen Beck, said it was $154 an/hr. and people like Marsha7 and gagrice, suck that propaganda up like Hogs eating slop!!! :sick:
I think those inflated hourly rates of $75-154/hr were calculated by adding total retiree costs into the equation. So if you take GM's total costs for current and retired union employees then divide it by actual hourly employee hours worked, then you get a number of $150-170/hr. Which is probably a real number since that is an actual cost GM has.
Would that not include, under the UAW contract, the provisions provided for in retirement, EVEN IF that means the "healthcare for life", and nothing more?
".....I've had various jobs where I saved my employer money by catching errors and/or helped land a big project. I'm not entitled to anymore $ just for doing what I was hired for."
Now, I understand that you can't get blood from a stone in either situation, your's or Rocky's dad's, but how would you feel if you saved your employer a significant sum of money, and as thanks they CUT your pay 15%?
What's fair is fair. Both you and Rocky's dad are entitled to what you and your respective employers AGREED upon.
The corporate leadership of this continent could learn something along those lines.
"Both have many billionaires, and 90+% of the population living day-to-day. "
And we're not far from that today, growing closer all the time.
I got ya beat!!! I bought an '86 S-10 brand new for $7,000 making $4.25/hr. Payments-$123.02/mo (OK, daddy paid the insurance on it, and slid me a $20 every now and then, but I paid for it)!!!!
All the more reason to put safeguards in to protect the American Standard of Living!!! I don't think it is limited to just manufacturing, either. Even knowledge based jobs that require a degree can be done FAR CHEAPER over there. Even with your companies patented formulae, there is nothing stopping them from packing up and moving to India, and developing and manufacturing their products there, for pennies on the dollar.
Not only is the labor cheaper, but I'm sure the envoronmental regulations are far less stringent.
I say we work to keep America as American as possible. If they want the work, after we are employed, let them COME HERE and do it.
That would depend on the total situation of my employer. If I thought it was unfair/unjust, I'd be pissed as hell, but I wouldn't [non-permissible content removed] or moan on this board about it, I'd be busy sending out resume's and calling contacts.
Would that not include, under the UAW contract, the provisions provided for in retirement, EVEN IF that means the "healthcare for life", and nothing more?
Yes, unless the company can't afford it. My wife's job privides medical coverage during retirement. But I understand that is only the case if the company is still in business and able to pay and we take that into consideration. IMO, nothing is guaranteed. We are saving for retirement and planning with the idea that healthcare may or may not be employer provided. Same goes for Social Security. We save/invest a sizable amount each month. If we still end up flat broke it will be our own fault, not the governments, not some greedy capitalist, and not even the boogeyman in the closet.
Yeah he did but the term of collecting subpay only lasted so long.
I broke $100k twice in 37 Years working in Alaska. I got a nice $15K added to my 401K when I retired. All of which is gone because of a lame bunch in Congress the last several years.
And you want americans to use this 401K system for retirement. What would of happened if you didn't have a define benefit pension plan???? I guess you wouldn't be knocking down Martini's in Hawaii, eh???.....Also excuse me the congress before this one ran this economy in the ground by doing nothing to stop the housing bubble that was ready to burst!!!
So I am assuming your dad was further down the totem pole than the forklift operator that went into bankruptcy when his wages went below $105K per year?
My father didn't work gobs of overtime nor has he ever lived beyond his means. His final year of working he only made $62K and retired as a job setter making $29 an/hr.
You still cannot grasp the reality of the guys working around you on the job. How much does the janitor get at the car dealers you worked for. If someone in your town is willing to sweep the floor for $8 per hour that is what that job is worth...
It's been years since GM, has had in-house janitors. Even so not one of the plants here in Western Michigan, has ever lost money!!!
You are really dreaming if you think all those multi millionaires in Congress are going to shoot themselves in the foot. Eight of the top ten richest Senators are Democrats. Last time I looked. You think Kerry the richest is going to screw up his fat cat lifestyle with a realistic tax code that targets his demographic. It was guys like your dad and myself that are paying the bill. The upper middle class are the ones to be targeted.
I doubt 8 of the top 10 are democrats. Kennedy, Kerry-is through marriage because of Heinz. Ummm who are these other 6 wealthy democrat senators???
Lastly can you give me ONE year out of the last 30 that GM made a decent profit on North American vehicle sales? My guess is NO. It has been pointed out that GM sold most of the real money maker, GMAC. 2007 arguably the best year ever for vehicle sales in the USA, and GM lost billions, while Toyota made billions.
I guess you want me to go look that up??? They made money in the 90's when gas was cheap and Clinton, had the economy running like a well oiled machine!!!
-Rocky
That is just not the truth. You have been spoon fed those stories by the UAW workers that would like to believe that a profit can be made with high priced labor.
Delphi Coopersville, made almost $150 million dollars a year. Delphi's Wyoming, MI. plant made $40 million a year in the 1980's but because of the loose work rules and slashing a workforce from 2300 in the 1970's and 80's to a workforce of 700 via automation well that plants profits tripled also and is why GM, is looking to purchase the valve lifter plant back from Delphi!!!
SO the total profit for GM from 1985 to 2006 was $59B. They have lost more than that since 2007. This report was from August of 2008. Another report says that $47B is paying the legacy costs since 2007.
So with a larger workforce with restrictive workrules and more domestic content they were profitable and with looser union rules, automation, wage and benefit cuts, they lose money!!! The bottom line is you can't have a out of control unregulated capitalistic society and expect a positive end!!!
-Rocky
I'm sure losing market share every year and increasing retirees to support has nothing to do with it. Many of those billions prior 2006 were from GMAC.
Just looking at Chevy alone gives part of the answer. In 1980 Chevy sold over 2.2 million cars. I believe these are cars only.
By 2000 that number was down to around 550,000.
1980 Oldsmobile sold nearly 1 million and we know where those sales are now.
1980 Buick sold over 850k in 2000 209k.
Not each other.
Not the state of the Congress.
Not welfare or rioting in the streets.
Surely there's enough going on with the UAW to tie everyone up in knots without the side issues creeping in?
thanks....
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/knox.asp
Kip
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Certainly many people around the world are intelligent, but for various reasons they do not stay in their own countries; they do come to the U.S. and other developed countries.
Even with your companies patented formulae, there is nothing stopping them from packing up and moving to India, and developing and manufacturing their products there, for pennies on the dollar.
My company sent some low-tech products to China and hired 10 people to make product. That lasted for about 1 year, at which point we brought production back.
Logistics and the cost of a 2nd production facility (supervisor, building, bribes, long shipping distances) offset any savings of a few operators here.
We also don't trust anyone outside the developed countries where the legal system protects intellectual rights. We did and do not provide formulae to Indian or Chinese plants; they would get chemicals premixed and shipped from the U.S. poured.
By 2000 that number was down to around 550,000.
Yep, Chevy sold 2.29 million cars for model year 1980. And that was a bad year for the industry, as sales were down considerably compared to the 1977-79 period. Now to be fair, the 1980 numbers were inflated by the Citation, which came out extra early in April 1979, and went on to sell over 800,000 cars all by itself.
Rounding out the list, I think Pontiac was around 650-700K, and considered a bit of a loser even at that level! I think Cadillac moved around 250-300K units. And I'm sure that if you threw in Chevy and GMC trucks, that would be good for around another 1-1.25 million?
True, and it seemed every other person had one stolen. My MIL had a '79 that was stolen twice in 3 weeks. The second time it never was found.
Never thought I'd be defending a lawyer, but here goes. Whatever a lawyer's hourly rate is, they make that solely because someone (a client) thinks they are worth that amount of money. Nobody is forcing anyone to use a $300/hr lawyer rather than one that charges $100/hr. When someone's backside is on the line (think OJ Simpson), and they can afford it, almost any fee is worth staying out of the slammer. That's why some lawyers (though certainly not all) make the high hourly rates you referred to.
And yes, he/she went to college for 6 or more years and passed the bars and all that does is give them the right to hang out a shingle saying "lawyer for hire". It does not guarantee them anything! So the risk they take is all their's.
Oh wait, I think that was divorce... :shades:
Yeah, I can't believe I'm defending them either even though I have several good friends that are lawyers. Anyway, yes, I'd be willing to pay $300/hr to get top notch legal counsel. No way in hell would I pay someone $35/hr to sweep the floors in my house (okay, maybe if she showed up in a french maid outfit! LOL)
he/she went to college for 6 or more years and passed the bars
Not any easy task to accomplish. The Smartest Woman in the World flunked the Washington DC bar exam. Gave up and went to Arkansas where she was able to pass the test. If the ABA was as powerful as the UAW she would not have to suffer that humiliation. Just pass the DNA test for UAW blood lines and you get the BIG BUCKS with little or no skills or education at all.
Actually, those are about $300 per hour too. If you want a good one, that is. :shades:
No matter how you slice it, floor sweepers are not worth $35/hour...that dog won't hunt...the only skill necessary for floorsweeping is a properly funtioning cerebellum so that you are sufficiently coordinated to stand up...altho that French Maid outfit may raise the going rate somewhat...
Just like buggy whip makers had it made "forever" until the public no longer needed horses for transportation, the UAW had it made for unskilled workers until the curtain was pulled back and others showed up and did it better...UAW could have changed, made Big 3 more efficient, and competed adequately with Honda and Toyota...but they fought progress with stupid restrictive work rules, brainwashed everyone in Detroit that floorsweeping required highly developed skills, and thereby drove their employers (GM/Ford/Chrysler) into the ground...
Even in bankruptcy, they cannot see what floorsweepers really are...one really has to wonder if people leave their basic intelligence at home when they join the UAW, because what they think of themselves, compared to what they really are, is about as different as Mercury and Neptune (since Pluto is no longer a planet anymore... :confuse: )
Sanity will prevail, simply because the market will speak on its own, regardless of any bailout or words from Obama...
At my company, professionals have been on an all merit raise plan for over 25 years now. Since that started, professionals have not received a single cost-of-living-adjustment (COLA), step, longevity, or any other regularly scheduled raise.
When done right and implemented fairly, the better workers percolate to the top of the pay ranges, and the slackers sink to the bottom. If we're lucky, they take the hint and seek employment elsewhere.
That's not to say that it's perfect, but neither is the raise system a union wants to see, where the raises are based almost exclusively on longevity, learning to tie one's shoe, etc.
Thanks,
Chintan
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
My company subscribes to the Jack Welch GE style of management where employees are ranked and the bottom 10% is constantly being churned, laying off people out one door and hiring in another door.
In fact, my business area was just hit with about a 10% cut and we won't miss a beat. As long as the bottom 10% are cut with the only regards to their work, it works wonders, and everyone is a VERY motivated employee after, brutal, but very effective.
-Rocky
-Rocky
The unstated threat: If the workers reject GM’s proposals, production of the automaker’s 2009 Cobalt model might move to Mexico.
If the union allows it, True North could generate big savings. According to a source, the company wide use of nonunion janitors—who would earn about $12 per hour instead of $28 per hour—alone could save GM $300 million to $500 million a year.
Now here is a switch. Instead of sitting around waiting for something to break the Skilled workers will sweep the floors for the same big bucks of course.
Those workers also agreed that skilled-trades workers would assume additional duties, such as sweeping the floors, without any change in pay.
http://www.workforce.com/section/00/article/24/86/16.html
Doesn't mean a thing if buyers don't find them desirable, and the D3 still build plenty of undesirable vehicles.
The point is GM is paying $1500 to $3000 per vehicle in health care for retirees. Toyota was not so stupid as to sign onto a deal like that. Not entirely the UAWs fault though they had to know as market share tumbled over the last 20 years it would come back to bite them in the butt.
The question is: could GM make a decent profit over 5% if they did not have those legacy costs to deal with? So far this year GM is only holding onto 18.8% of the total US market. Will the UAW let go of the retirees health care to save GM?
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesE
And that, is the ten million (or is it billion?) dollar question.
I think no matter what happens the retirees are going to be shopping for new health care plans, with most of them probably ending up on Medicare. The existing level of benefits are simply not sustainable if the D3 are to survive. And if GM or Chrysler goes C11, that's what will happen anyway 'cause the gov't isn't going to fund a gold-plated health care plan for UAW retirees while telling the rest of the country how great Medicare is.
And right there were 800,000 seeds for future foreign auto buyers.
I don't know why someone wouldn't trust them with the formulae and intellectual properties. Grin.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The point is that the huge cost structure built inot the system by the way the UAW operates has been a major drain on profitability for many years...like it or not, the unskilled work they do simply is not worth what they get paid, and the market pendulum is finally noticing that...
Maybe the pay structure would not be so bad if the cars were of superior quality, but they are not...too many posters here have stated serious problems that would cause any normal person to change brands...when you realize that the same people make a GM, Ford or Dodge, it becomes readily apparent that the only way to eliminate the union labor factor is to seek out brands that avoid the union and the union mentality...
Maybe the average buyer is unaware that UAW people make the Big 3 cars, but after one has been burned by a Ford, then a GM, it doesn't take long before the buyer is now turned off to domestic carmakers...once they buy Honda or Toyota, it will be a rare person who switches back, as the quality difference is readily apparent if one will only look...
Even our improved models (CTS, Malibu) get compared to the imports simply because the imports set the standard for quality; the only thing set by the UAW vehicles is the lowest possible common denominator...and they brought it all onto themselves...
Many in this group should get it and read it ,it'll correct many of the misconceptions posted here about GM and the UAW. Talks very candid about GM's operations worldwide.
It points out the good and bad that GM and the UAW has done.
It also clears up the misconceptions that many people have that just because they purchase a Toyota or Honda ,etc. assembled in the U.S., that is good.
It turns out that GM ,Ford and Chrysler provide way more jobs for Americans here in the U.S. both union and non-union jobs ,directly and indirectly then all the foreign car makers combined that assemble some of their cars here in the U.S.
Good book and good reading,
For that matter, "We're now just as good as Brand X," isn't a compelling reason to switch for many people, especially when Brand X has a much longer history of delivering consistently reliable, well-made products.