"Well they might of had a good reason back 20 or 30 years ago but to keep your head in the sand and believe the D3's quality isn't on par or better than the imports in this day in age is truly utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- - - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "
Another book to add to my reading list (Why GM Matters)...but you may be missing the point...anyone can make a case that the existence of GM, IN A VACUUM, may be important...BUT, if the products are poorly made, fall apart, extra parts, missing parts, vibrates on the highway (DTS and Caddy says nothing can be done about it), then you may make a theoretical case for GM, but not a pragmatic case for them to exist...
The product has to be worthy of ownership...too many posters here have stated major problems with GM products, whether in the 70s and 80s (OK, long ago) but also in the 90s and into this century...so GM has not learned how to EARN our business, it just thinks that we should buy the product because...because...it is GM...that is a lousy reason...
It is GM's responsibility and obligation to learn why many Americans prefer Honda and Toyota, so they can adequately compete...GM has no right to exist solely because they are large, they must be profitable with decent products...according to the buyers of Honda and Toyota, GM does not make decent products...
The market isn't speaking, it is YELLING that Big 3 cars are not worth buying, because the alternative is better...GM should wonder why the imports are perceived as better...waving the flag at me is worthless because the product they make is worthless...and when you consider the cost, expecting me to spend over $25K on a so-so car, when that same money may buy me a well made import, GM is rather arrogant simply to say "Buy GM, and keep money in America"...because I will then wave the flag back and say that I want to receive value and quality for my money, and with GM I get neither...while I blame the UAW for the poor assembly quality of the vehicle, management has its share, too...
It may seem odd, but maybe the people who need to read the book are GM employees and suppliers...THEY need to know what GM SHOULD stand for, and quality and reliability are two things missing from Big 3 cars...
Americans bought imports because they were dissatisified with Big 3, plain and simple...they found a superior product in the imports, and it will take a LOT of work to bring them back, bevause you cannot offer an equal product, you must offer a superior product...and, considering how the UAW could care less about their vehicle quality, getting a superior product from a Big 3 maker may simply be impossible...
Why has it taken this long for Malibu and CTS to get rave reviews???...and why only 2 models???...why the quality gap for so many years and no one did anything about it???
Big 3 were arrogant Goliaths for many years, DECADES, ignoring their own poor quality and ignoring the improving quality of their competition...now they suddenly realize that they are going down because of poor products...a true patriot would buy the best product for the best value, not some piece of crap made by his neighbor, simply because his neighbor makes it...
We did not desert the Big 3...they treated us like crap, selling is junk, and then wonder why we don't come back for more...we did not desert them, at first, they deserted us...so we went somewhere else, where the product was inherently better, and not having UAW idiots make the product is one big reason why it was a better product...
The chickens have come home to roost...they have been walking back for over 30 years, and GM and Ford workers finally take notice...
Chapter 11, void UAW contracts, dump UAW workers, re-open as a quality non-union shop, and restore the quality that we used to see...bit don't take me for granted, because if buyers come back and get screwed once more, the Big 3 are permanent history, and rightfully so...
"Looks like we lost another one. I was looking at a pair of Fiskars hedge trimmers this morning. They are now made in China"
I bought a new 24V drill, thinking it was made in the states, turned out it was made in three different countries, none of them the USA. Even the Milwaukee is made elsewhere. That doesn't bode well with me.
I think that Ford needs to save a whole lot more than $500,000,000. If that is all they can squeeze out of the UAW they are not going to make it either.
Ford Motor, the only Detroit automaker to spurn billions of dollars in U.S. government loans, said Thursday that it lost $14.6 billion in 2008 as the biggest sales slump in decades took its toll.
>"Maybe labor costs aren't the crippling issue that everyone thinks it is?"
It's all the little things that eventually add up. $500 Million here and $500 million there can lead into real money.
Ford built the plant in Brazil that is apparently state of the art. Robots, "IN House" suppliers, and reasonably paid line workers, etc. Saving $500 million here and there can put the profit back in the picture.
According to the video, Ford could not build that plant here, because of objections, threat of strikes, and so forth by UAW.
Add to the wages a work force that can't be fired for poor performance, blah blah, the expensive and sub par product, and a company heads down hill.
There are very likely a lot of of things that need to be done differently. If all of them resist change like the UAW, the D3 don't have much of a chance for survival.
Maybe labor costs aren't the crippling issue that everyone thinks it is?
They are still stuck with the Legacy costs. Ford still will owe VEBA $15B under this amended contract. The only real difference is they can pay some of it with stock instead of borrowed cash. VEBA is not going to solve the retiree health care problem.
Also, VEBAs historically have been far short of a certain bet. VEBA trusts at numerous industrial companies, including Caterpillar Inc. and Detroit Diesel Corp., ran dry of funds.
When the UAW agreed to the VEBA arrangement, it was touted the fund would pay for retiree health-care benefits for 80 years. But with the automakers deferring payments and seeking to make half of their VEBA commitments in company stock -- not to mention it may take many years for the stock market to bounce back with healthy investment rates of return -- prospects for long-term solvency of the UAW's VEBA could be debated.
With the downturn in the stock market how much do the D3 owe to the Pension Trusts? That is controlled by the Feds PBGC. I know some of the uninformed don't believe in 401K plans. The Pension trusts are invested in the same stock market and subject to the same losses. VEBA is also invested in the same markets as a 401k. The difference being the individual has more control over his 401k & his future. That is what has always made America better than the rest of the World.
PS My guess, the Health Care for all the retired UAW workers is about $8,000,000,000 per year. That is based on what our company was paying the Union for our health care plan. Ours was far from gold plated. Medical covered 70% dental 50% eyecare $100 per year.
And NO VIAGRA or other expensive drugs. Generics were mostly prescribed. If you wanted name brand you paid the difference.
That cost our company right at $1000 per month when I retired in 2006. May be more now. I did not opt for Cobra as Kaiser was only $263 per month for adequate protection till Medicare kicked in. Medicare takes $126 per month out of the SS which includes my Kaiser Supplemental. It is better medical coverage than I had for $1000 per month under the Teamsters. Just had a Physical and the total out of pocket for me with all lab tests was $55. I never got a Physical under the Teamster plan that was less than $400 out of pocket. Mostly lab costs.
As a satisfied customer not inclined to switch, you can certainly appreciate the uphill battle the domestics face in getting people out of their Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Acuras, Infintis, BMWs and Lexuses.
This does work in the domestics' favor. Note that the Tundra and Titan haven't made serious inroads against the F-150 and Silverado/Sierra.
With the downturn in the stock market how much do the D3 owe to the Pension Trusts? That is controlled by the Feds PBGC. I know some of the uninformed don't believe in 401K plans. The Pension trusts are invested in the same stock market and subject to the same losses. VEBA is also invested in the same markets as a 401k. The difference being the individual has more control over his 401k & his future. That is what has always made America better than the rest of the World.
How did that "control" you so desire in your 401K work out for you??? You told me you lost 40% and if that was your main source of retirement income wouldn't you be back in the workforce??? Most people have had to extend their years in the workforce because they lost there [non-permissible content removed]!!!! :sick:
Maybe labor costs aren't the crippling issue that everyone thinks it is?
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember Steve that labor is 8.4% of the total cost of a vehicle which I think is very inaccurate because it is much less than that now and will be even lower as they close more plants. :sick:
Remember Steve that labor is 8.4% of the total cost of a vehicle ...
the FINAL ASSEMBLY COST of a vehicle. That doesn't count the labor cost for suppliers, many of which are UAW. For example, American Axle, who is flirting with bankruptcy (you know, the company the UAW so brilliantly had to strike last year) makes axles and those labor costs are in the PARTS cost for final assembly. And how much labor cost goes into putting together transmissions, engines (not part of FINAL ASSEMBLY).
So your 8.4% on FINAL ASSEMBLY is nowhere near the real cost of labor for a vehicle, when you figure that parts would have been a lot cheaper if their weren't gold-plated unions charging high labor for making those parts.
the FINAL ASSEMBLY COST of a vehicle. That doesn't count the labor cost for suppliers, many of which are UAW. For example, American Axle, who is flirting with bankruptcy (you know, the company the UAW so brilliantly had to strike last year) makes axles and those labor costs are in the PARTS cost for final assembly. And how much labor cost goes into putting together transmissions, engines (not part of FINAL ASSEMBLY).
So your 8.4% on FINAL ASSEMBLY is nowhere near the real cost of labor for a vehicle, when you figure that parts would have been a lot cheaper if their weren't gold-plated unions charging high labor for making those parts.
From what I read the 8.4% was THE TOTAL LABOR costs from both union and non-union sources!!! Do you have any credible source outside your own mind to dispute it???
Also when the so called "gold plated" UAW workers die well you can kiss the Big 3 good bye because the only thing that has kept em' afloat was union workers from all aisles who could afford their cars. Some redneck, toothless, hillbilly in one of those "right to work for less" states couldn't afford their cars anyways!!! :mad:
Also when the so called "gold plated" UAW workers die well you can kiss the Big 3 good bye because the only thing that has kept em' afloat was union workers from all aisles who could afford their cars.
You do manage to make me laugh a lot. How does a handful of UAW workers make any difference in the sales volume of the D3? CA IS the largest market for vehicles and other than trucks and SUVs they do not buy D3 cars. I would imagine less than 5% are GM cars.
"As a satisfied customer not inclined to switch, you can certainly appreciate the uphill battle the domestics face in getting people out of their Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Acuras, Infintis, BMWs and Lexuses. "
This is going to be the biggest problem Detroit faces. No amount of bail out money or cost reductions is going to convince very satisfied Japanese car customers to move back to the D3 in the near future. Why would they move?
Remember in the early 80's when Japanese cars were significantly cheaper than American cars, and people thought that was a main reason to buy Japanese cars? Look at it now. Japanese cars are more expensive to buy than American cars, yet people continue to flock to them and remain loyal to them.
I don't know if the D3 can quickly regain the customers which they took such a long time to lose.
rockylee: Also when the so called "gold plated" UAW workers die well you can kiss the Big 3 good bye because the only thing that has kept em' afloat was union workers from all aisles who could afford their cars.
If they are depending on union workers to stay in business, it's no wonder they are facing bankruptcy. A better strategy would be to design vehicles that appeal to a broader audience.
rockylee: Some redneck, toothless, hillbilly in one of those "right to work for less" states couldn't afford their cars anyways!!!
You need to actually compare the prices of various new vehicles. In most cases, the domestics go out the door for less than a comparable transplant vehicle. People aren't passing over domestic vehicles because they can't afford to buy them.
How did that "control" you so desire in your 401K work out for you?
Not so great. But I have no one to blame but my own greed. I thought the market might keep going up. I could have dumped most into the money market at any time as it was going down. The point is the GM Pension is also down and GM has to put money in to keep it afloat. That is the major reason so many companies have dropped their pensions. If you are going along making a moderate return and all of a sudden the government agency (PBGC) says sorry guys your pension has lost 20% in the market. Pony up to bring it back up. That alone could bankrupt a company. That is just one of many reasons GM is going bankrupt. That is government regulations that are making pensions unsustainable for companies to offer. I know why the regs were put into place. Many companies were bought for their huge pension funds and then the new owners sucked the pension fund dry. It is just easier for the companies to contribute so much a pay period to a 401K then they are clear of it in the future. Then the individual is responsible for the investments not the company. It is not going back to the good old days. So the more you can contribute the better. That is unless Biden gets his way to tax your money before it goes into the 401K.
and then the fact that GM says it won't need the $2 billion by the end of the month. That could, COULD, signal that some of these cost cutting measures are beginning to bear fruit.
How did that "control" you so desire in your 401K work out for you???
Just fine, thanks. For long-term investors, market downturns are great times to put cash to work. I'm happy when I can buy solid stocks at bargain-basement prices.
I'm only sorry that the 401(k) wasn't available when I was in my 20s.
For long-term investors, market downturns are great times to put cash to work. I'm happy when I can buy solid stocks at bargain-basement prices.
Absolutely. I'd much rather have my 401k/IRA and other accounts that I invest in regularly under my control and mine to keep. The drop in values only means anything if you have to pull it out. Anyone close to retirement in '07, should have had no more than 30-40% of their retirement assets in stocks. Meaning losing 30-50% of 30-40% of your portfolio wouldn't have hurt to much and the other 60-70% in fixed investments probably would have gained 5-10%. Anyone 10 years or more from retirement still have plenty of time for the market to work in their favor.
I know several people pensions that have lost nearly 50% of it due to their employer's going belly up. That is really bad when some of these people were counting on that money and didn't save much. No matter the situation people need to take personal responsibility for their retirement.
You do manage to make me laugh a lot. How does a handful of UAW workers make any difference in the sales volume of the D3? CA IS the largest market for vehicles and other than trucks and SUVs they do not buy D3 cars. I would imagine less than 5% are GM cars.
I wasn't just counting the UAW workers but also Teamsters, IBEW, IUE-CWA, SEIU, IAM, SPEEA, UFCW, PGU, ALPA, ATU, AFGE, AFM, AFSA, AFSCME, AFT, APWU, ILA, BAC, NATCA, SMWIA, OPEIU, USW, etc, etc, etc,......You get the point, right??? 11 million strong and growing!!! People are waking up and are ready to fight against the pseudo-capitalist neocon global elites!!!! :mad: The labor movement after the passage of EFCA, and with the redistribution of wealth from the neocon globalist to the average american who built these multi-national corporations we just might have a country again!!!!
Well your beloved transplants are "pimping" (would like to use another word ) out there vehicles also and have lost money!!!! GM, still is #1 in America and Chevrolet, is still the #1 selling brand!!! The 2010 Buick LaCROSSE, will likely be the highest quality car in the world made that is under $50,000 and the attention to detail just blows me away!!!! The Lexus ES series use to be the standard of the world but Buick, has raised the bar so high that I believe Buick, will become "The Standard Of The World" for luxury cars!!!! I would love to be selling Buicks, this year because that LaCROSSE, will sell like hot cakes and it won't be to just old people anymore!!!!!
I'm not saying you are dumb gagrice, for doing what you did on the chance of a greater return but we can't have people playing with there retirements on Vegas, odds pal!!! I would of probably done the same as you because how is someone on the outside suppose to know how long to stay and when to get out unless you are a Wallstreet broker??? Maybe Marsha7, has enough spare time to be a day trader but as much as I find business news appealing I don't want to have my eyes glued to the market each and every day like some of my much "older" friends who watch it over beers hoping to strike it rich and drink many more when they lose that day!!!
I'd rather let my money join millions of others and put it in a large pot and let the "experts" handle it like done in a define benefit plan. There is a reason that the Teamsters, General Electric's, pension funds are among the largest in the world!!!
I know several people pensions that have lost nearly 50% of it due to their employer's going belly up. That is really bad when some of these people were counting on that money and didn't save much. No matter the situation people need to take personal responsibility for their retirement.
That is why I'm all for a national pension fund that has been kicked around in congress that could replace social security. You start paying into today like a 401K and after 30 or 40 years well you get a check!!!! Also borrowing against it would have to be illegal to keep members of congress and some presidents like *cough* Reagan from robbing it blind like they have done with S.S. :mad:
I wasn't just counting the UAW workers but also Teamsters, IBEW, IUE-CWA, SEIU, IAM, SPEEA, UFCW, PGU, ALPA, ATU, AFGE, AFM, AFSA, AFSCME, AFT, APWU, ILA, BAC, NATCA, SMWIA, OPEIU, USW, etc, etc, etc,......You get the point, right??? 11 million strong and growing!!! People are waking up and are ready to fight against the pseudo-capitalist neocon global elites!!!! :mad: The labor movement after the passage of EFCA, and with the redistribution of wealth from the neocon globalist to the average american who built these multi-national corporations we just might have a country again!!!!
LOL, you think all union members only buy domestics!! Get real, I know many USW retired and current employees that own non D3 products. My FIL is a retired USW member and he bought my MIL a brand new Camry in '05, he got sick of buying garbage from the D3.
Another friend of mine is a current USW electrician at US steel Gary Works. He drives a late '90's STS to work but his wife drives an Infinity QX56 and he bought his son a Sentra. I grew up around the northern Indiana steel mills and it wasn't uncommon to see the mill worker driving to work in his domestic pickup, but their wive's were driving honda's, Mazda's, Toyota's and an occasional Lexus if their wife also had a good job which wasn't uncommon.
I know of several Teamsters that drive non domestic vehicle's too, so don't believe for a minute that all union members support the UAW. No doubt most do, but many don't give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about the UAW or the D3.
Say, the average person buys a new car every 5 years. That's 2.2 million cars assuming each purchase is a domestic, which I guarantee it's not. Either way, 2.2 million cars among the D3 is not going to save any of them.
Those drugs are beginning to wear off, and your communistic thoughts and silly dreams about the UAW are beginning to surface...:):):):):)
"How did that "control" you so desire in your 401K work out for you??? You told me you lost 40% and if that was your main source of retirement income wouldn't you be back in the workforce??? Most people have had to extend their years in the workforce because they lost there [non-permissible content removed]"...the difference between gagrice and you is simple...gagrice is willing to take RESPONSIBILITY for his life and his retirement, and simply accepts that there will be ups and downs...while you are certainly entitled to allow the "experts" (like Lehman Bros, Merrill Lynch and all the other smart people???) to manage your $$$, you obviously, once again, have great difficulty accepting responsibility for any part of your life, financial or otherwise...there is a definite difference between normal people and you...you just refuse to take personal responsibility for ANYTHING, and want the gov't to do it for you...remember, the gov't that can give you anything you want is the gov't that can (and will) take everything you have...
BTW, I am NOT a day trader...never was, never will be...I opted out of the Dot Com market, because at no time EVER could I see value in ANY of the internet stocks...all of them had no products, no sales, no assets (pets.com DID have a dog puppet, so they did show about one dollar in asset value), and I could not see why anyone would put a dollar into any one of them...in fact, back then, contrarian reviewers would scoff at the net stocks that ran up to $200 or $300 a share based on nothing, comparing them to companies like GM, saying that the net stocks had market caps greater than GM without GM's sales, assets and goodwill...I wonder if GM now has any assets, sales or goodwill...
Also, those toothless hicks in the right-to-work states (where the job growth has been, and will be...surprised you cannot comprehend that) are the ones buying all those Big 3 pickup trucks, the one area where Japan apparently cannot compete at all...so, if you have any brains at all, and do not wish to kill 50% of GM and Ford truck sales, I would not criticize all those toothless hicks...they may be the folks keeping GM and Ford afloat...
The Lexus ES series use to be the standard of the world but Buick, has raised the bar so high that I believe Buick, will become "The Standard Of The World" for luxury cars!!!! I would love to be selling Buicks, this year because that LaCROSSE, will sell like hot cakes and it won't be to just old people anymore!!!!!
No way. I was at the Chicago auto show on the last Saturday and nobody was even looking at the 2010 LaCrosse. I posted a pic of the display, no body was there.
You were spewing the same crap about the Cobalt, Tahoe Hybrid, Saturn Aura, Astra, and the Malibu.
While the Malibu isn't taking over the midsize class yet, I'll still give it to ya cause I think it's a good car, great by GM standards. That makes you 1 for 5.
I hope your right about the 2010 LaCrosse, but I'll take a wait and see approach. My prediction is it will be good, I liked it until I walked up to it and saw GM decided to put those stupid fake stick-on looking portholes on the freakin hood. Those things are so yesterday, I see people sticking those things on everything from Kia's to Suburban's for crying out loud. Buick heritage doesn't mean a thing to me, to most people that heritage means blue hairs and they don't want to be associated with that image. It will take several great Buicks to change that perception.
".....The Lexus ES series use to be the standard of the world but Buick, has raised the bar so high that I believe Buick, will become "The Standard Of The World" for luxury cars!!!! "
Boy, I hope your right. Any way, there WILL be one in my driveway w/in 6 months.
".....You were spewing the same crap about the Cobalt, Tahoe Hybrid, Saturn Aura, Astra, and the Malibu.
While the Malibu isn't taking over the midsize class yet, I'll still give it to ya cause I think it's a good car, great by GM standards. That makes you 1 for 5.
1/5 in terms of sales (which is what really counts), but 4/5 in terms of decent cars. While the Cobalt is the laggard of the group, the XFE gets high marks for fuel economy, and the SS has the best bang for the buck. It sells well (though not like the Civic and Corolla) but seems to suffer from "rental car fever". The Tahoe is a top notch BOF SUV, and gets great FE in Hybrid form. Still, the threat of $4 gas hangs heavy. The Aura, like the Malibu, gets higher marks from the Rags than the Camry, but not the Accord. The Aura doesn't sell because there are what, 500 dealers nationwide, and they decided to stick the pushrod V6 in the XE at first (as well as the 4 sp auto.) which I think hurt. the Astra seems to hit the nail on the head, save one thing; an exorbanant (sp) price. Over $17k for a base model??? Malibu? Balls on car.
You start paying into today like a 401K and after 30 or 40 years well you get a check!
Rocky, I have been paying more into SS every year than I did my 401K and it is nothing to write home about. I paid into SS for 46 years and get less than half from that as I do from the Teamsters after 37 years.
The Feds say SS will be broke. Take a look at what you and your employer pay into that and what you will get. You have a lot more faith in that bunch of thieves in Washington than I have. SS and Medicare is a giant Ponzi scheme same as the UAW GM health care plan. They should all do time like Madoff.
PS It was JFK and LBJ that robbed SS and put it in the general fund. You really need to take some US history classes.
That is why I'm all for a national pension fund that has been kicked around in congress that could replace social security. You start paying into today like a 401K and after 30 or 40 years well you get a check!!!!
Given that Congress has been borrowing against SS fund for decades to help fund the deficit, that's another Ponzi scheme that's going to blow up. I don't think we can trust the govt any more than the bankers to handle our money honestly. Better hide it under the mattress!
".....Given that Congress has been borrowing against SS fund for decades to help fund the deficit, that's another Ponzi scheme that's going to blow up."
THAT is the no 1 problem w/ SS. Think of all the money that SHOULD be in SS, considering that the entire baby boom generation has been working full time for 30 years, and the first ones started working full time about 45 years ago. It should be more than enough to pay them out.
The politicians are always trying to make it someone else's fault and revising history. I saw a poll that showed how effective these reeducation schemes can be with the help of the media. It said a high percentage of US blame Bush for the failing of the financial institutions over the mortgage lending. He tried to fix it and was blocked by certain of those who had instigated the giveaways to borrowers who shouldn't even have had a dollar let alone a house.
Often these reeducation schemes are applied to things like the UAW and its role in the cost of autos. Or say the place that foreign cars have had in destroying the US automakers because of factors such as currency, import laws, dumping, etc. The UAW has taken all the blame to some people. Others have blamed GM because they built a great hatred over cars they weren't happy with.
I'm amused reading the foreign car discussions about problems with Hondas and Toyotas and how the people have trouble calling them bad cars. But now I'm seeing people saying they'll never buy another of that particular model. It's too bad they can't blame the assemblers of those cars in Japan or elsewhere like they blame the UAW here.
But now I'm seeing people saying they'll never buy another of that particular model. It's too bad they can't blame the assemblers of those cars in Japan or elsewhere like they blame the UAW here.
There are four Toyotas in my family and I have a close friend with a Toyota, so I can comment on those five vehicles, all are 2004 - 2006 models. One had an issue from the start with tires, all replaced under warranty, but a fight with the dealer to do that. Two of those vehicles had a bad O2 sensor that failed just after the warranty expired, each was about $350 to replace. I don't blame the assembler, but I do blame the suppliers for those problems.
I doubt that I'll own a Toyota again, mostly because the local dealer is a pain in the butt to deal with, both sales and service, and I've got my eyes on a Hemi Orange Pearl Dodge Challenger R/T.....:shades:....., gotta love that lifetime powertrain warranty.
Think of all the money that SHOULD be in SS, considering that the entire baby boom generation has been working full time for 30 years, and the first ones started working full time about 45 years ago. It should be more than enough to pay them out.
I read that somewhere in the $3 Trillion area of the National Debt is owed to Social Security. So it should never go broke. Except it was stolen for other programs. Thank you Lyndon Johnson.
part of President Lyndon B. Johnson's "Great Society" program. Social Security was changed to withdraw funds from the independent "Trust Fund" and put it into the General Fund for additional congressional revenue.wiki
Well you can be my classmate as you need some of the same classes as it is a well known fact that your hero Reagan, nearly bankrupted S.S. and medicare to bank roll his "Star Wars" program when he could of used that money to throw into alternative energy. George H.W. Bush, Clinton, Dubya, are as much to blame because the writing was on the wall.
Often these reeducation schemes are applied to things like the UAW and its role in the cost of autos.
I don't think the UAW would be viewed in such poor light if not for their flagrant use of the Strike when GM was bleeding red ink. I almost got caught by the 1998 UAW strike just when I needed a new vehicle. My 1993 3/4 ton 4X4 Chevy got hit by a big buck. It was going to be a week getting it repaired. I had wanted a Suburban for some time. If I had been any other place than Sun Valley Idaho the Suburban capitol of the USA I would not have gotten one as the stinking UAW was on strike. Just when GM was starting to make a little profit on big SUVs as a result of the gas prices. I got one of the last Suburbans before the UAW strike stopped production. How many folks ended up getting another brand as a result? How many found out that GM was not the only auto maker on the planet. I would say they lost a bunch of dyed in the wool GM customers. And that can be directly attributed to the greedy UAW workforce. From over 50% of the US market to 18% currently in a little over a decade.
Reagan, nearly bankrupted S.S. and medicare to bank roll his "Star Wars" program
You are showing your lack of education. The Constitution is clear on the Federal Government's role. It is to defend US from outside invasion. Whether I agree with Star Wars is irrelevant. It was more Constitutional in scope than SS or Medicare. And Reagan did not steal the SS money and put it in the general fund. He may have added to the debt. It will not compare to the current administration. I am glad it was the young that put this President in Office. The young will have to pay the price. Better get used to rice and beans as your staple diet. The UAW is not going to help you out of this mess.
Thank-you imidazol97. It's sad how some americans believe that a brother, neighbor, friend, lacks any sort of pride or workmanship and that someone in Japan, cares so much more about there work than american. People like my father, cared a lot about his workmanship and would not sign off on anything if it didn't meet the required specs. Union members as a whole strive to be the best. I'm sure people like gagrice, when he worked wanted his workmanship to be the best it could be. Design and engineering is something the UAW, has no control over and if there is a flaw in the engineering i.e. door hinges were designed to thin. well how can that be blamed on the UAW, is beyond me??? :confuse: How is that UAW worker on the assembly line suppose to know by looking at a door hinge if it will hold up over the course of time??? One would think that the parts would be "tested" to see how reliable or durable it will be over the course of time before it might need to be replaced or is the UAW, worker responsible for it's failure because he/she stuck that part on the car????
How is that UAW worker on the assembly line suppose to know by looking at a door hinge if it will hold up over the course of time?
There is nothing the UAW worker can do about the crappy hinges used by GM for decades in their trucks. There is something they can do about a door that does not fit properly and allows wind to blow in. The passenger door was fine on my 2005 GMC. It was the UAW joker assembling the driver's door that was asleep or drunk. It was the same breed of Indiana workers without the UAW attitude that built my Sequoia. The doors all fit wonderful. The SUV is quiet and comfortable. It would be a sad day if those Toyota workers in Indiana, that take pride in their work, were brought down to the UAW level.
Comments
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Cha-Ching!
The product has to be worthy of ownership...too many posters here have stated major problems with GM products, whether in the 70s and 80s (OK, long ago) but also in the 90s and into this century...so GM has not learned how to EARN our business, it just thinks that we should buy the product because...because...it is GM...that is a lousy reason...
It is GM's responsibility and obligation to learn why many Americans prefer Honda and Toyota, so they can adequately compete...GM has no right to exist solely because they are large, they must be profitable with decent products...according to the buyers of Honda and Toyota, GM does not make decent products...
The market isn't speaking, it is YELLING that Big 3 cars are not worth buying, because the alternative is better...GM should wonder why the imports are perceived as better...waving the flag at me is worthless because the product they make is worthless...and when you consider the cost, expecting me to spend over $25K on a so-so car, when that same money may buy me a well made import, GM is rather arrogant simply to say "Buy GM, and keep money in America"...because I will then wave the flag back and say that I want to receive value and quality for my money, and with GM I get neither...while I blame the UAW for the poor assembly quality of the vehicle, management has its share, too...
It may seem odd, but maybe the people who need to read the book are GM employees and suppliers...THEY need to know what GM SHOULD stand for, and quality and reliability are two things missing from Big 3 cars...
Americans bought imports because they were dissatisified with Big 3, plain and simple...they found a superior product in the imports, and it will take a LOT of work to bring them back, bevause you cannot offer an equal product, you must offer a superior product...and, considering how the UAW could care less about their vehicle quality, getting a superior product from a Big 3 maker may simply be impossible...
Why has it taken this long for Malibu and CTS to get rave reviews???...and why only 2 models???...why the quality gap for so many years and no one did anything about it???
Big 3 were arrogant Goliaths for many years, DECADES, ignoring their own poor quality and ignoring the improving quality of their competition...now they suddenly realize that they are going down because of poor products...a true patriot would buy the best product for the best value, not some piece of crap made by his neighbor, simply because his neighbor makes it...
We did not desert the Big 3...they treated us like crap, selling is junk, and then wonder why we don't come back for more...we did not desert them, at first, they deserted us...so we went somewhere else, where the product was inherently better, and not having UAW idiots make the product is one big reason why it was a better product...
The chickens have come home to roost...they have been walking back for over 30 years, and GM and Ford workers finally take notice...
Chapter 11, void UAW contracts, dump UAW workers, re-open as a quality non-union shop, and restore the quality that we used to see...bit don't take me for granted, because if buyers come back and get screwed once more, the Big 3 are permanent history, and rightfully so...
I bought a new 24V drill, thinking it was made in the states, turned out it was made in three different countries, none of them the USA. Even the Milwaukee is made elsewhere. That doesn't bode well with me.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Ford says union deal will save $500 million a year (International Herald Tribune)
Chrysler Canada seen on collision course with union (Reuters - and it's the CAW, not the UAW, but it's gotta have an impact)
Ford Motor, the only Detroit automaker to spurn billions of dollars in U.S. government loans, said Thursday that it lost $14.6 billion in 2008 as the biggest sales slump in decades took its toll.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/29/business/ford.4-418917.php
It's all the little things that eventually add up. $500 Million here and $500 million there can lead into real money.
Ford built the plant in Brazil that is apparently state of the art. Robots, "IN House" suppliers, and reasonably paid line workers, etc. Saving $500 million here and there can put the profit back in the picture.
According to the video, Ford could not build that plant here, because of objections, threat of strikes, and so forth by UAW.
Add to the wages a work force that can't be fired for poor performance, blah blah, the expensive and sub par product, and a company heads down hill.
There are very likely a lot of of things that need to be done differently. If all of them resist change like the UAW, the D3 don't have much of a chance for survival.
The whole truth is anyone's guess.
Kip
They are still stuck with the Legacy costs. Ford still will owe VEBA $15B under this amended contract. The only real difference is they can pay some of it with stock instead of borrowed cash. VEBA is not going to solve the retiree health care problem.
Also, VEBAs historically have been far short of a certain bet. VEBA trusts at numerous industrial companies, including Caterpillar Inc. and Detroit Diesel Corp., ran dry of funds.
When the UAW agreed to the VEBA arrangement, it was touted the fund would pay for retiree health-care benefits for 80 years. But with the automakers deferring payments and seeking to make half of their VEBA commitments in company stock -- not to mention it may take many years for the stock market to bounce back with healthy investment rates of return -- prospects for long-term solvency of the UAW's VEBA could be debated.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/02/uaw-cornered-on-veba.html
With the downturn in the stock market how much do the D3 owe to the Pension Trusts? That is controlled by the Feds PBGC. I know some of the uninformed don't believe in 401K plans. The Pension trusts are invested in the same stock market and subject to the same losses. VEBA is also invested in the same markets as a 401k. The difference being the individual has more control over his 401k & his future. That is what has always made America better than the rest of the World.
My guess, the Health Care for all the retired UAW workers is about $8,000,000,000 per year. That is based on what our company was paying the Union for our health care plan. Ours was far from gold plated. Medical covered 70% dental 50% eyecare $100 per year.
And NO VIAGRA or other expensive drugs. Generics were mostly prescribed. If you wanted name brand you paid the difference.
That cost our company right at $1000 per month when I retired in 2006. May be more now. I did not opt for Cobra as Kaiser was only $263 per month for adequate protection till Medicare kicked in. Medicare takes $126 per month out of the SS which includes my Kaiser Supplemental. It is better medical coverage than I had for $1000 per month under the Teamsters. Just had a Physical and the total out of pocket for me with all lab tests was $55. I never got a Physical under the Teamster plan that was less than $400 out of pocket. Mostly lab costs.
This does work in the domestics' favor. Note that the Tundra and Titan haven't made serious inroads against the F-150 and Silverado/Sierra.
How did that "control" you so desire in your 401K work out for you??? You told me you lost 40% and if that was your main source of retirement income wouldn't you be back in the workforce??? Most people have had to extend their years in the workforce because they lost there [non-permissible content removed]!!!! :sick:
-Rocky
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Rocky
the FINAL ASSEMBLY COST of a vehicle. That doesn't count the labor cost for suppliers, many of which are UAW. For example, American Axle, who is flirting with bankruptcy (you know, the company the UAW so brilliantly had to strike last year) makes axles and those labor costs are in the PARTS cost for final assembly. And how much labor cost goes into putting together transmissions, engines (not part of FINAL ASSEMBLY).
So your 8.4% on FINAL ASSEMBLY is nowhere near the real cost of labor for a vehicle, when you figure that parts would have been a lot cheaper if their weren't gold-plated unions charging high labor for making those parts.
So your 8.4% on FINAL ASSEMBLY is nowhere near the real cost of labor for a vehicle, when you figure that parts would have been a lot cheaper if their weren't gold-plated unions charging high labor for making those parts.
From what I read the 8.4% was THE TOTAL LABOR costs from both union and non-union sources!!! Do you have any credible source outside your own mind to dispute it???
Also when the so called "gold plated" UAW workers die well you can kiss the Big 3 good bye because the only thing that has kept em' afloat was union workers from all aisles who could afford their cars. Some redneck, toothless, hillbilly in one of those "right to work for less" states couldn't afford their cars anyways!!! :mad:
-Rocky
You do manage to make me laugh a lot. How does a handful of UAW workers make any difference in the sales volume of the D3? CA IS the largest market for vehicles and other than trucks and SUVs they do not buy D3 cars. I would imagine less than 5% are GM cars.
This is going to be the biggest problem Detroit faces. No amount of bail out money or cost reductions is going to convince very satisfied Japanese car customers to move back to the D3 in the near future. Why would they move?
Remember in the early 80's when Japanese cars were significantly cheaper than American cars, and people thought that was a main reason to buy Japanese cars? Look at it now. Japanese cars are more expensive to buy than American cars, yet people continue to flock to them and remain loyal to them.
I don't know if the D3 can quickly regain the customers which they took such a long time to lose.
If they are depending on union workers to stay in business, it's no wonder they are facing bankruptcy. A better strategy would be to design vehicles that appeal to a broader audience.
rockylee: Some redneck, toothless, hillbilly in one of those "right to work for less" states couldn't afford their cars anyways!!!
You need to actually compare the prices of various new vehicles. In most cases, the domestics go out the door for less than a comparable transplant vehicle. People aren't passing over domestic vehicles because they can't afford to buy them.
Not so great. But I have no one to blame but my own greed. I thought the market might keep going up. I could have dumped most into the money market at any time as it was going down. The point is the GM Pension is also down and GM has to put money in to keep it afloat. That is the major reason so many companies have dropped their pensions. If you are going along making a moderate return and all of a sudden the government agency (PBGC) says sorry guys your pension has lost 20% in the market. Pony up to bring it back up. That alone could bankrupt a company. That is just one of many reasons GM is going bankrupt. That is government regulations that are making pensions unsustainable for companies to offer. I know why the regs were put into place. Many companies were bought for their huge pension funds and then the new owners sucked the pension fund dry. It is just easier for the companies to contribute so much a pay period to a 401K then they are clear of it in the future. Then the individual is responsible for the investments not the company. It is not going back to the good old days. So the more you can contribute the better. That is unless Biden gets his way to tax your money before it goes into the 401K.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/13/autoline-on-autoblog-with-john-mcelroy/
and then the fact that GM says it won't need the $2 billion by the end of the month. That could, COULD, signal that some of these cost cutting measures are beginning to bear fruit.
Just fine, thanks. For long-term investors, market downturns are great times to put cash to work. I'm happy when I can buy solid stocks at bargain-basement prices.
I'm only sorry that the 401(k) wasn't available when I was in my 20s.
Absolutely. I'd much rather have my 401k/IRA and other accounts that I invest in regularly under my control and mine to keep. The drop in values only means anything if you have to pull it out. Anyone close to retirement in '07, should have had no more than 30-40% of their retirement assets in stocks. Meaning losing 30-50% of 30-40% of your portfolio wouldn't have hurt to much and the other 60-70% in fixed investments probably would have gained 5-10%. Anyone 10 years or more from retirement still have plenty of time for the market to work in their favor.
I know several people pensions that have lost nearly 50% of it due to their employer's going belly up. That is really bad when some of these people were counting on that money and didn't save much. No matter the situation people need to take personal responsibility for their retirement.
I wasn't just counting the UAW workers but also Teamsters, IBEW, IUE-CWA, SEIU, IAM, SPEEA, UFCW, PGU, ALPA, ATU, AFGE, AFM, AFSA, AFSCME, AFT, APWU, ILA, BAC, NATCA, SMWIA, OPEIU, USW, etc, etc, etc,......You get the point, right???
-Rocky
-Rocky
I'd rather let my money join millions of others and put it in a large pot and let the "experts" handle it like done in a define benefit plan. There is a reason that the Teamsters, General Electric's, pension funds are among the largest in the world!!!
-Rocky
That is why I'm all for a national pension fund that has been kicked around in congress that could replace social security. You start paying into today like a 401K and after 30 or 40 years well you get a check!!!! Also borrowing against it would have to be illegal to keep members of congress and some presidents like *cough* Reagan from robbing it blind like they have done with S.S. :mad:
-Rocky
LOL, you think all union members only buy domestics!! Get real, I know many USW retired and current employees that own non D3 products. My FIL is a retired USW member and he bought my MIL a brand new Camry in '05, he got sick of buying garbage from the D3.
Another friend of mine is a current USW electrician at US steel Gary Works. He drives a late '90's STS to work but his wife drives an Infinity QX56 and he bought his son a Sentra. I grew up around the northern Indiana steel mills and it wasn't uncommon to see the mill worker driving to work in his domestic pickup, but their wive's were driving honda's, Mazda's, Toyota's and an occasional Lexus if their wife also had a good job which wasn't uncommon.
I know of several Teamsters that drive non domestic vehicle's too, so don't believe for a minute that all union members support the UAW. No doubt most do, but many don't give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about the UAW or the D3.
Say, the average person buys a new car every 5 years. That's 2.2 million cars assuming each purchase is a domestic, which I guarantee it's not. Either way, 2.2 million cars among the D3 is not going to save any of them.
"How did that "control" you so desire in your 401K work out for you??? You told me you lost 40% and if that was your main source of retirement income wouldn't you be back in the workforce??? Most people have had to extend their years in the workforce because they lost there [non-permissible content removed]"...the difference between gagrice and you is simple...gagrice is willing to take RESPONSIBILITY for his life and his retirement, and simply accepts that there will be ups and downs...while you are certainly entitled to allow the "experts" (like Lehman Bros, Merrill Lynch and all the other smart people???) to manage your $$$, you obviously, once again, have great difficulty accepting responsibility for any part of your life, financial or otherwise...there is a definite difference between normal people and you...you just refuse to take personal responsibility for ANYTHING, and want the gov't to do it for you...remember, the gov't that can give you anything you want is the gov't that can (and will) take everything you have...
BTW, I am NOT a day trader...never was, never will be...I opted out of the Dot Com market, because at no time EVER could I see value in ANY of the internet stocks...all of them had no products, no sales, no assets (pets.com DID have a dog puppet, so they did show about one dollar in asset value), and I could not see why anyone would put a dollar into any one of them...in fact, back then, contrarian reviewers would scoff at the net stocks that ran up to $200 or $300 a share based on nothing, comparing them to companies like GM, saying that the net stocks had market caps greater than GM without GM's sales, assets and goodwill...I wonder if GM now has any assets, sales or goodwill...
Also, those toothless hicks in the right-to-work states (where the job growth has been, and will be...surprised you cannot comprehend that) are the ones buying all those Big 3 pickup trucks, the one area where Japan apparently cannot compete at all...so, if you have any brains at all, and do not wish to kill 50% of GM and Ford truck sales, I would not criticize all those toothless hicks...they may be the folks keeping GM and Ford afloat...
No way. I was at the Chicago auto show on the last Saturday and nobody was even looking at the 2010 LaCrosse. I posted a pic of the display, no body was there.
You were spewing the same crap about the Cobalt, Tahoe Hybrid, Saturn Aura, Astra, and the Malibu.
While the Malibu isn't taking over the midsize class yet, I'll still give it to ya cause I think it's a good car, great by GM standards. That makes you 1 for 5.
I hope your right about the 2010 LaCrosse, but I'll take a wait and see approach. My prediction is it will be good, I liked it until I walked up to it and saw GM decided to put those stupid fake stick-on looking portholes on the freakin hood. Those things are so yesterday, I see people sticking those things on everything from Kia's to Suburban's for crying out loud. Buick heritage doesn't mean a thing to me, to most people that heritage means blue hairs and they don't want to be associated with that image. It will take several great Buicks to change that perception.
Hey, I resemble that remark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- !!!
Boy, I hope your right. Any way, there WILL be one in my driveway w/in 6 months.
While the Malibu isn't taking over the midsize class yet, I'll still give it to ya cause I think it's a good car, great by GM standards. That makes you 1 for 5.
1/5 in terms of sales (which is what really counts), but 4/5 in terms of decent cars. While the Cobalt is the laggard of the group, the XFE gets high marks for fuel economy, and the SS has the best bang for the buck. It sells well (though not like the Civic and Corolla) but seems to suffer from "rental car fever". The Tahoe is a top notch BOF SUV, and gets great FE in Hybrid form. Still, the threat of $4 gas hangs heavy. The Aura, like the Malibu, gets higher marks from the Rags than the Camry, but not the Accord. The Aura doesn't sell because there are what, 500 dealers nationwide, and they decided to stick the pushrod V6 in the XE at first (as well as the 4 sp auto.) which I think hurt. the Astra seems to hit the nail on the head, save one thing; an exorbanant (sp) price. Over $17k for a base model??? Malibu? Balls on car.
Rocky, I have been paying more into SS every year than I did my 401K and it is nothing to write home about. I paid into SS for 46 years and get less than half from that as I do from the Teamsters after 37 years.
The Feds say SS will be broke. Take a look at what you and your employer pay into that and what you will get. You have a lot more faith in that bunch of thieves in Washington than I have. SS and Medicare is a giant Ponzi scheme same as the UAW GM health care plan. They should all do time like Madoff.
PS
It was JFK and LBJ that robbed SS and put it in the general fund. You really need to take some US history classes.
Given that Congress has been borrowing against SS fund for decades to help fund the deficit, that's another Ponzi scheme that's going to blow up. I don't think we can trust the govt any more than the bankers to handle our money honestly. Better hide it under the mattress!
THAT is the no 1 problem w/ SS. Think of all the money that SHOULD be in SS, considering that the entire baby boom generation has been working full time for 30 years, and the first ones started working full time about 45 years ago. It should be more than enough to pay them out.
Often these reeducation schemes are applied to things like the UAW and its role in the cost of autos. Or say the place that foreign cars have had in destroying the US automakers because of factors such as currency, import laws, dumping, etc. The UAW has taken all the blame to some people. Others have blamed GM because they built a great hatred over cars they weren't happy with.
I'm amused reading the foreign car discussions about problems with Hondas and Toyotas and how the people have trouble calling them bad cars. But now I'm seeing people saying they'll never buy another of that particular model. It's too bad they can't blame the assemblers of those cars in Japan or elsewhere like they blame the UAW here.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There are four Toyotas in my family and I have a close friend with a Toyota, so I can comment on those five vehicles, all are 2004 - 2006 models. One had an issue from the start with tires, all replaced under warranty, but a fight with the dealer to do that. Two of those vehicles had a bad O2 sensor that failed just after the warranty expired, each was about $350 to replace. I don't blame the assembler, but I do blame the suppliers for those problems.
I doubt that I'll own a Toyota again, mostly because the local dealer is a pain in the butt to deal with, both sales and service, and I've got my eyes on a Hemi Orange Pearl Dodge Challenger R/T.....:shades:....., gotta love that lifetime powertrain warranty.
I read that somewhere in the $3 Trillion area of the National Debt is owed to Social Security. So it should never go broke. Except it was stolen for other programs. Thank you Lyndon Johnson.
part of President Lyndon B. Johnson's "Great Society" program. Social Security was changed to withdraw funds from the independent "Trust Fund" and put it into the General Fund for additional congressional revenue.wiki
-Rocky
-Rocky
I don't think the UAW would be viewed in such poor light if not for their flagrant use of the Strike when GM was bleeding red ink. I almost got caught by the 1998 UAW strike just when I needed a new vehicle. My 1993 3/4 ton 4X4 Chevy got hit by a big buck. It was going to be a week getting it repaired. I had wanted a Suburban for some time. If I had been any other place than Sun Valley Idaho the Suburban capitol of the USA I would not have gotten one as the stinking UAW was on strike. Just when GM was starting to make a little profit on big SUVs as a result of the gas prices. I got one of the last Suburbans before the UAW strike stopped production. How many folks ended up getting another brand as a result? How many found out that GM was not the only auto maker on the planet. I would say they lost a bunch of dyed in the wool GM customers. And that can be directly attributed to the greedy UAW workforce. From over 50% of the US market to 18% currently in a little over a decade.
-Rocky
You are showing your lack of education. The Constitution is clear on the Federal Government's role. It is to defend US from outside invasion. Whether I agree with Star Wars is irrelevant. It was more Constitutional in scope than SS or Medicare. And Reagan did not steal the SS money and put it in the general fund. He may have added to the debt. It will not compare to the current administration. I am glad it was the young that put this President in Office. The young will have to pay the price. Better get used to rice and beans as your staple diet. The UAW is not going to help you out of this mess.
-Rocky
* NORTH AMERICAN BUILT
VEHICLES
COROLLA 14,194 19,309 -23.4 28,642 40,021 -28.4
CAMRY 20,271 33,992 -37.9 40,587 64,553 -37.1
VENZA 2,315 0 N/A 3,709 0 N/A
AVALON 2,100 4,073 -46.3 4,219 8,228 -48.7
SIENNA 5,334 11,262 -50.7 11,860 21,668 -45.3
RAV4 1,890 0 N/A 2,212 0 N/A
PICKUP 13,600 27,525 -48.5 28,295 50,662 -44.1
SEQUOIA 1,606 2,617 -36.1 3,198 4,994 -36.0
RX 3,625 4,767 -20.8 8,475 9,413 -10.0
TOTAL 64,935 103,545 -34.7 131,197 199,539 -34.2
N.A. VEHICLES % OF
TOTAL 59.3% 56.8% 57.8% 56.4%
Higher percentage NA built this year than last. Plus a higher percentage of the US market than last. While GM has lost 4% more in the last year.
GM 18.8% of US market share
Toyota 15.3% of US market share
There is nothing the UAW worker can do about the crappy hinges used by GM for decades in their trucks. There is something they can do about a door that does not fit properly and allows wind to blow in. The passenger door was fine on my 2005 GMC. It was the UAW joker assembling the driver's door that was asleep or drunk. It was the same breed of Indiana workers without the UAW attitude that built my Sequoia. The doors all fit wonderful. The SUV is quiet and comfortable. It would be a sad day if those Toyota workers in Indiana, that take pride in their work, were brought down to the UAW level.