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United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,686
    >people wanted to buy a $40K car when their income will really justify a $20K car...so, once again, the person who has bought too much house and too much car cannot keep up with inflation, which is bunk...he simply refuses to live within his means...THAT is why Momma had to go out and get a job...because Dad wanted all his toys, like too much house (but I can sell it in 10 years for a great capital gain), too much car (I deserve a Benz S600 'cuz

    Exactly on point.

    Many people have far exceeded their income in spending. I don't think ALL UAW people deserve the blame for feeling entitled to a job like in communist Russia where the job exists whether it's needed or not just so someone has an income. But I feel a lot of people far overspend. We have the welfare mentality who have cost our economy through taxes wasted subsidizing their no-work policy and their pay-for-kids schemes. On the other hand we have people in $400,000 homes, above average in this area collecting food stamps because they meet the rules now because they lost their job. (Warren County, Ohio) (Warren County, Ohio)

    I don't understand all the crisis mentality about the increasing unemployment (lagging indicator) and financial tightness (leading indicator) by the administration other than a tool to get legislation passed in an emergency mentality. I remember earlier recessions which were more drastic in their broad impact of lost jobs and cutbacks on spending by prudent people.

    This area has been hit harder because of many Delphi (nee Delco) plants which have closed because they were noncompetitive in the Chinese world of auto parts.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Agree Carlos was another LEE Iacocca. T

    The going estimate for this "Restructuring" will no doubt be reached or exceeded...$100B - $125B when the restructuring is completed in 2 years....I hope nobody thinks this a 6 month and done deal...correct??

    You can call it anything you want...it really doesn't matter any longer. :sick:

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Face it its not a very good time to be a CEO.

    ...or a member of the UAW.

    See? The rank and file are finally in the same boat as the Execs! Now, throw 'em overboard, mates!!

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    OUTSTANDING POST!

    On topic, brilliant clarity and just the facts! Now you should get blasted by the elite responses! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here is the EXACT problem with Unions. Thinking they are insurance for life!

    Regards,
    OW
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Yup, the UAW is looking after standard of living decrease. What other semi-skilled job can you work 30 years at and get full pension and benefits?
    I install stereos on a line for 30 years and am awarded full retirement? :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The IUE was in that plant because it was legacy from Frigidaire production in Dayton when it was owned by GM.

    Interesting concept. The plant belongs to the Union that was there first.. hmmmm

    Too bad they don't start building the S10 again with a 4 cylinder diesel. Being a Ford Ranger owner, I think the S10 was a better small truck. Leave it to GM to screw it up and come out with the Colorado midsize no one seems to want. Why buy a small or midsize when you can buy a full size for the same price and still get 15 MPG around town.

    I guess one of my underlying bits of contempt toward the UAW and other auto worker Unions is the FACT that they are directly responsible for our not having small PU trucks that get 30-45 MPG as the rest of the world has. It was a government pay back to the Unions that put the Chicken Tax in place that eliminated any foreign built trucks. Which would have forced the D3 to build competitive trucks in the USA. With a captive market they can put out any kind of gas hog truck they feel like selling and we are stuck with them.

    Obama, get rid of the Chicken tax and give US economical PU trucks.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I remember earlier recessions which were more drastic in their broad impact of lost jobs and cutbacks on spending by prudent people.

    For those of US that survived the late 1970s and early 1980s, this should have been just a blip. It was made worse by government intervention and lack of integrity on the part of Congressional leaders.

    Many people have far exceeded their income in spending.

    A lot of those people that are directly responsible for taking on more debt than they could possibly afford are now begging the government to bail them out. That includes GM and their millstone UAW workers. Any family making the median $45k per year should not have signed onto a home loan for more than $175,000. That is based on a 30 yr fixed rate of 6%. With tax and insurance the payment is a third of their gross. If they are not smart enough to figure it out I have little sympathy when they end up sleeping in their car or a homeless shelter. When I was down on my luck in 1979 and applied for food stamps It was denied because I had assets that exceeded $1500. In the very liberal state of MN they wanted you to lose your home and car before they would help you out. I decided to give up on being a farmer and got my job in Alaska back. It only took 3 years of farming during the Carter years to wipe out $100k in savings. Thankfully I never cashed out my Teamster Pension.

    I install stereos on a line for 30 years and am awarded full retirement?

    Great job if you can get it. Even cushy Civil Service jobs do not pay the pensions the UAW get. The people I know in Civil Service are now paying about $200 per month of their health care. You have to work 40 years to get 80% of your base salary. And no SS benefits.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    The STS ad was not a screamer ad...the dealer had a 1/2 page ad with no photos, just listing his inventory, alphabetically...the Caddy was listed between Buick and Chevrolet, and each listing was only a word listing about 1/2 inch high...about as subtle as you can get...since it is a Chevy dealer, mostly Chevys listed, only one Caddy, the STS...

    I know what you mean, but this ad was as quiet and subtle as they get...
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    dbostondriver,

    I guess if you are such a econ. expert you would understand that we should not have to compete with 3rd world labor wages. What do you want us americans to do??? .....Do you want us to live in grass huts and eat snakes because that is what free-trade has given this country. A race to the bottom. I don't put any faith in Consumer Reports, as does a good portion of the edmunds.com membership!!!
    The last model LaCrosse, sure had some flaws in the early model years but it became a really nice car when they addressed the interior design a few years ago. A couple of coworkers are driving 2009's as demos and they are nice units. We've been selling Lucerne's and LaCrosse, Buicks out of our pre-owned inventory like hotcakes. Buick, has the highest ratings from J.D. Power and Associates.

    I want to touch back on your free-trade arguement. What do we do that is so much cheaper than other countries??? Your produce example of apples is laughable. What printer is made here today that we ship to China??? The chinese protect their industry and if you want to sell it there well you better make it in China. I know you probably love Mises, and take the capitalism bait of hook, line, and sinker!!! If you are naive enough to believe this country can survive as a service only economy then you need to get some different econ. 101 instructors!!!

    I don't understand why you are trashing the CTS, which won a award as the highest resale value of any ELLPS on the market but I guess all the people who purchased one are dummy's right?

    You are funny saying people in New Mexico, will appreciate those jobs than us in the North. We actually know how to build stuff up here in the industrial base of this country. I've been to New Mexico, many of times and it is a safe haven for illegal aliens and is dirt poor. Alabama, is nothing but swamp land and is a poor state for many reasons. Toyota, set up plants in the south because they new they could manipulate the sheeple and since they paid more than the local tavern or diner well those people thought they had the world by the [non-permissible content removed]!!! Why else would they build it there??? It sure in the heck wasn't because they had an abundance of educated or skilled labor. Look at the mentality of the average Alabamian and the conditions they live in. It's not a beacon of higher education. South Carolina, well they have lost tens of thousands of furniture and textile jobs to China, and other foreign nations and all of them were non-union. They got a pink slip.

    Perhaps someday you will come to your senses and realize that this country will not survive without a working middle class and you would do yourself a favor by test driving a domestic vehicle instead of believing everything Fixed News and Biased Reports tells you to base your opinion off of. :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

    -Rocky
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Great job if you can get it. Even cushy Civil Service jobs do not pay the pensions the UAW get. The people I know in Civil Service are now paying about $200 per month of their health care. You have to work 40 years to get 80% of your base salary. And no SS benefits.

    As I said earlier, a friend of mine retired from the fed after 42 years. He was at a little more than 80% of his final average compensation, or FAC. After several years of COLA's, he's now making more in retirement than he did in his peak earning years.

    If I could have 80% of my base pay in retirement and no SS, i would take it in a heartbeat! That would be almost twice what I am projected to get from our whittled down pension plan and SS.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Thank-you lemko!!! It was your best post ever!!!! ;) :shades: :)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I think Beth would like it. I will ask her tonight. She is in love with the CTS despite the fact that she is selling Chevy's.

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    One would think a nation of self proclaimed christians would have enough moral character to not openly support slave labor. Am I wrong???

    -Rocky
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    But Rocky, even in this country we have been competing between low wage and high wage areas; between union states and right-to-work states. 60 years ago, the garment industry left New England for the south. Why - because the wages were cheaper. 20 years ago, my own company built a plant Texas and moved work there from the Mid Atlantic area. Why? Because the wages were lower in Texas and there was no union. How did South Carolina land the BMW plant? Because SC was a RTW state, plus the state and local governments granted generous (some would say outrageous) tax benefits. So that kind of competition between low cost and high cost areas has been going on for ages. Now it's just being done on a global basis.

    It sure in the heck wasn't because they had an abundance of educated or skilled labor. Look at the mentality of the average Alabamian and the conditions they live in. It's not a beacon of higher education.

    The same thing could probably be said of the average UAW worker.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well as I have told you before those bonds would be safe if your "free-marketeers" would of never opened up our market and created a race to the bottom. Clinton , may not of introduced NAFTA, but he supported it and has to share in the responsibility for its implementation!!! :mad:

    -Rocky

    P.S. I don't know to many grocery store workers buying bonds or have 401K's gagrice.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Comparison Test:

    a. Attracts more females

    My girlfriend loves the Buick LaCrosse and she's a very attractive woman. Any girl who is awed by the status of the Lexus nameplate is a worthless golddigger in my book!

    b. Handles better

    No problem driving the LaCrosse aggressively

    c. More reliable

    Look at the latest J D Powers survey! Buick beat Lexus!

    d. Better looking

    The new LaCrosse is exponentially prettier than that anonymous looking IS350 that's sold as a garden-variety Toyota in its own home market

    e. Better resale value

    Could care less about this "mythical resale value!" Buying a car I don't like just because it supposedly has better "resale value" is still throwing money away in my book. Cars are depreciating assets, not investments!

    f. Which would you rather win in a contest

    No contest! I'd take the Buick LaCrosse in a New York second. I'd sell an IS350 cheap just to get it out of my driveway. I wouldn't even want it for a beater car. I can barely fit in that claustrophobic box!

    g. Safer

    Buick wins hands down!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Ummm you said they made 56% of there cars here I thought or am I mistaken???

    Also GM, despite shutting plants still has the highest domestic content of any manufactuer. I agree with lemko's earlier post of wanting 100% American Made.

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    ;) Your G/F is a very attractive women lemko thus all this talk of only beautiful women liking Lexuses, is HAWG WASH!!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    An attractive woman is more than appearances. I met many beautiful women who became super-ugly the second they opened their mouths. An attractive woman is not only physically pleasing, but emotionally and spiritually as well. My ideal woman loves me whether she sees my driving my brand-new DTS, puttering around in a hooptie, or just stepped off a SEPTA bus! I feel sorry for the guy who thinks he needs a certain car to be attractive to superficial women.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I'm not even going to respond to such utter non-sense gagrice!!! :P

    -Rocky
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    In topical news, "With talks on a bond-exchange stalled, expectations are rising that GM may clinch a deal first on restructuring its retiree healthcare obligations with its major union.

    Like bondholders, the United Auto Workers union is being pressed to accept stock in a recapitalized GM in exchange for debt forgiveness.

    The UAW is owed roughly $20 billion from GM for a retiree healthcare fund known as a Voluntary Employee Benefits Association, or VEBA. It faces pressure from GM to take half of that in equity under the terms of GM's bailout."

    GM bondholders raise concerns with U.S. auto panel (Reuters)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I agree with you 100% pal!!! I use to think like that when I was a teenager!!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    That is a interesting proposal!!! :surprise:

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I dated my first spouse for only 4 months and look at where it got me!!! I'm going to make sure this time!!!

    The UAW didn't engineer the G5 and the new Chevy Cruze, should address those concerns you have as I agree with most of what you had to say!!! If Pontiac closes its doors the G5 won't have a next generation.

    -Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    P.S. I don't know to many grocery store workers buying bonds or have 401K's gagrice.

    About 90% of the Grocery store clerks are Union here in So CA. They have 401Ks. They are in worse shape today as a result of the strike a few years back. After months on the picket line they got less than they were offered to start. Worse yet a grocery store clerk starts now at bare minimum wage by the Union contract. Much less than starting pay at all the non-union places including WalMart. The Strike also made several non union grocers wealthy and boosted their business permanently. We did not cross the picket lines and started shopping at the non union grocers and found we like them better.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Her and I debated this issue but what's cool about her is she can understand my Point Of View and recognizes that the UAW, created a strong middle class. She admits with GM, closing plants and with no union workers with disposable income coming to buy the cars she sells well she will be out of a job. She knows some Mexican from Mexico with a fake social security number isn't going to pay her bills. She as I told you is very conservative but is a open minded female. She does think the UAW should of been more flexible with there work rules. She is anti-illegal alien, anti currency manipulation, anti-NAFTA, and believes this country doesn't protect american business from 3rd world competition.

    -Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Look at the date on this article. The Democrat controlled Congress had 14 years after this to implement protection for the UAW workers. They did not. The UAW peaked in 1970 and have not gained any ground for almost 40 years. They are a dying breed get used to it.

    DOMESTIC CONTENT LAWS: WILL THEY SAVE THE AUTO INDUSTRY?

    "Made in America." It is a proud, well-respected label. But should laws require that goods be made in the U.S.? This is the purpose of the so-called domestic or local content require- ments. They are designed to force manufacturers selling in other countries to conduct at least part of their production there as well. These laws are most common in developing nations seeking to generate employment opportunities for their populace while building the base for a future domestic industry. They seem embarrassingly out of place in a developed, highly technological nation. Yet, this is precisely what may happen in the U.S.

    A domestic content bill for automobile manufacturers is now before Congress. It has over 200 co-sponsors in the House and seventeen in the Senate. Primary supporters of the legislation are the United Auto Workers and automobile parts suppliers. Proponents tout the legislation as just the medicine to cure the American automobile industry's ills and put thousands of unemployed autoworkers back to work. Opponents fear the legislation could do more harm than good. General support for domestic content laws rests on two basic tenets. Proponents argue that the manufacture of some products, in this case automobiles, is so important to the economy that whatever is necessary must be done to ensure the health of that industry. Backers of domestic content laws further maintain that producers with substantial sales in a foreign country have a responsibility to generate employment and economic activity there.'
    Dick K. Nanto, "Local Content Laws and Automobile Imports: Arguments Pro and Con," Congressional Research Service Report No. 81-191 E, August 20, 1981, p. 1.


    Protectionism was a bad idea 28 years ago and is a bad idea today. Competition is good at every level of society. It weeds out the weak and builds a stronger Nation. We need to quit propping up the losers and encouraging them to propagate. You end up with a mess that is Detroit, New Orleans and Chicago among others.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Her and I debated this issue but what's cool about her is she can understand my Point Of View and recognizes that the UAW, created a strong middle class.

    Well whether the UAW created the middle class or not, that is the PAST. You don't need to be part of a union these days to be middle class. There are plenty of different careers that will get you middle class wages - around the median income - $40K? $45K? per year.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    I can't believe people are actually comparing Buick to Lexus? That just shoes bias.
    And dissing on the South and New Mexico? Personally, I would rather live in beautiful South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Virginia; than murder capital of the US Detroit. The place is run down, just like the 0-16 Lions.
    Aren't Corvettes made in Bowling Green Kentucky, Saturns in Tennessee. I know BMW make the Z4 in Tennessee, Honda has a plant in Alabama, Toyota has six factories across the country, and Nissan has two factories in Tennessee.
    You may be biased for the LaSuck for some reason, but only 36,000 of them sold last year while Lexus sold 50,000 IS. The IS being a more expensive car with less incentives. You can get a find a LaSuck for only $26,000 sticker price.
    GM would have killed Buick years ago if they didn't sell so well in China.
    There is speculation that future Buick models will have interior and exterior designs with greatly increased influence from Buick of China. This is due to Buick's great success and high reputation in China. Motor
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Kernick and Gagrice,

    Hows is this free market capitalism working out for the overall health of this nation??? Both democrats and republicans have sold you a bill of goods!!! The free-market is only good when all parties are on the same level playing field. I believe americans should have the right to buy what's best available to them and the more competition the better ONLY if it's 1st world vs. 1st world. Why can't everyone go into business and build their stuff here and the best company wins. Why do they need to cheat and go use slave labor to out price there competition. Do you not believe that americans can build stuff or offer you goods and services better than some foreign nation??? I certainly do!!! I believe if we built everything here and weeded out the foreigners UNLESS they invest here then we could truly have a strong society with a strong middle class. If everyone was paying close to the same labor rates and paying the same federal taxes then we would truly see who the best companies were. Until we implement some protectionism we will never have a level playing field and this countries standard of living will be a race to the bottom. It's the same thing going on in the retail world. I sell cars and my competition is paying salesman "flats" to sell a car. My boss who's been doing this for 24 years has said he's never seen it like this before. FYI- He's a Fixed News watching, right-winger and admits we have a problem in this country when we are stepping on the bluecollar worker and asking for them to take less just because some foreign country has a 3rd world wage scale. Toyota, is going to the Japanese government. We aren't competing against just Toyota, as Virg Benero quoted but we are competing against foreign governments. Am I the only one who see's what Virg, is talking about????????? :confuse:

    -Rocky
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Your right. I don't like ANY of GM's products. I think GM has lied and cheated the American public for years by saying "made in America" :sick: . I am also anti-union except in scenarios where public safety is concerned. I respect my boss and my working environment and feel it would be extremely unfair to strike.
    Bad things GM has done :lemon: :

    GM Scrutinized for Alleged [non-permissible content removed] Collaboration
    In August 1938, a senior executive for General Motors, James Mooney, received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle for his distinguished service to the Reich. Hitler "would never have considered invading Poland" without synthetic fuel technology provided by General Motors.

    Deliberate dismantlement of urban rail infrastructure:
    Facing a saturated car market in the US in the early 1920s GM engaged in in a controversial policy along with road-builders that triggered the massive shift from the mass transportation of the previous century to the 'one-person-one-car' trip of today.[64] In order to expand auto sales and maximize profits GM bought local mass transit systems and privately-owned railways, following which it would proceed to eliminate them.[65]

    Top-level management:
    In 1980, J. Patrick Wright wrote a book named On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors. This book, which critics acclaimed "blows the lid off the king of carmakers" was about the allegations of corruption, "mismanagement and total irresponsibility" at the top level of the company.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I think a supermarket tabloid is a more reliable source of information than Consumer Reports.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Well, when looking for a new washing machine, TV, or air conditioner feel free to use a supermarket tabloid to determine which one to by.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,474
    " What other semi-skilled job can you work 30 years at and get full pension and benefits? "

    Pretty much anything in the public sector...
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Lexus, is living off of its Trophy Wife 1990's image. The 2010 Buick LaCrosse will go toe to toe with the ES and isn't a rebadged Camry!!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    You can take the Lacrosse with a gas guzzling V-6 that only puts out 200hp and has an archaic V-6. Due you sell Buicks.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I would never base my buying of a wachine machine on Consumer Reports. I don't care what they claim that magazine receives money from companies for favorable reviews.

    Here's your future car lemko, if the globalist, anti-union/america crowd get there way!!! :sick:

    India's Tata rolls out world's cheapest car

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090323/ts_afp/indiacompanyautotata_20090323144905

    -Rocky
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Hey Rocky. That car is made by Tatta motors. You know what else Tata makes: Jaguar. Jaguar got the same top JD Power rating that your precious Lacrosse received.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The 2010 LaCrosse, doesn't have 200 hp. and if you were referring to the 3800 V6 ask lemko, it is far from gas guzzling. The 2010 will have the king of V6's the 3.6 "High Feature" V6 which BTW is a Wards Automotive Top 10 putting out 280 ponies. :P

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Since when did the Jaguar, get made in India??? :confuse: If they start making em' in India, you can kiss there loyal consumers good-bye!!!

    -Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,474
    Tata bought almost 20 years of Ford-based refinement that went into Jag.

    I am curious to know the Jags designed by Tata engineers.

    The Nano is a great car for a globalized brave new world. There should be a surveillance camera in each unit.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    The current Honda Accord V-6 puts out 271hp, has variable cylinder management control, and won't break down on you. Also costs less. :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I understand that each Tata Nano comes with a free picture of Big Brother pasted on the dashboard.

    I guess the car will make sense in the "Brave New World" of the global elitists: Nano cars for nano-incomes! Will Mork from Ork drive a Nano Nanoo?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Honda Accord, is now one of the ugliest beasts on the road. It's now classified as a large car and it's fit and finish isn't in the same ballpark as the new LaCrosse. Even Acura, can't touch it with it's TL/RL combo!!! So is the root problem of your frusteration that GM, did business with The Third Reich I just read??? :confuse:

    Remember back in those days the business of america was just business. However back in those days the working class finally had a voice at the table with the sit-down strike. It's ashame we are going back to pre 1937 era. All the big players did business with the enemy. What did they do that isn't going on today??? Your globalist buddies are funding terrorist and smiling all the way to the bank as we speak. It's the neocon way right??? :sick:

    -Rocky
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Hey, I think the Buick LaSuck is ugly. Looks are in the eye of the beholder.
    Lucerne is a nice looking ride.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,474
    A little melamine and formaldehyde never hurt anyone :shades:
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    I will not disagree on what you and ILO have to say about Toyota. But I want an answer to this simple question:

    Is it possible to produce high quality, attention to detail products using unmotivated, unrecognized, and dissatisfied labor?
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    I guess they are in the process of creating a rapid response team, with the usual lethargy :)
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Chikoo, I agree a 100%. Much of UAW is unmotivated and over protective.

    I was watching the NatGeo channel. They showed the production of the BMW Z4 in one episode and the Chevy Z06 in another.

    The Z4 plant was spotless and filled with innovative and ergonomic ways to build the car. Every employee had a collared BMW shirt and worked with the care of a Dr.

    The Z06 plan seemed dirty and greasy. People were wearing jeans and cutoff t-shirts and no one was smiling. Though the Z06 is a top level car, employees were hammering in windshields with their hands.
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