United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

gagrice

the best deal i see are the GM products. I don't think I will be concerned about the UAW.

Most people could care less if the car is built by a UAW plant or in a small town in Mexico. So what comparisons did you make to come to your conclusion? I know there are some great deals on just about any vehicle you want to own on the market today.

lemko

Well, if they used the 2005 LaCrosse as a baseline, it's got to be! Girlfriend's LaCrosse has been absolutely trouble free since we brought it home on March 12, 2005!

dbostondriver

Alright, it is obvious we have some Buick fans.
How about this competition; Buick vs. Cadillac?

lemko

Not an IS!!! That's like somebody telling me I won a Cadillac and it turned out to be a Cimmaron. It's not a real Lexus. It better be an LS460 if you want me to choose the Lexus over the Buick, not the cramped, anonymous-looking faux 3-Series wannabe the IS appears to be.

lemko

Somebody who says "gas-guzzling Buick V-6" is obviously unfamiliar with it. My old 1988 Park Ave with the 3.8 V-6 gets phenomenal fuel economy and is therefore the car I drive most.

lemko

Funny thing. I bought my DTS wearing a casual black jacket, white sweatshirt, khaki pants, and sneakers.

lemko

The LS460h is a joke! My 1989 Cadillac Brougham gets better fuel economy. I guess Lexus tacked on the "h" to make hypocritical wannbe greenies feel good about piloting their barge.

rockylee

It is the same everywhere. Look at the article today in the UK. Green adviser to the Prime minister says they need to get rid of 50% of the population. I say where do we start. Maybe with the poor and unemployed.

I disagree with him. Am I worried about certain groups over populating the world because of religion or culture??? You betchya. I do think the human race has to use our brains for something other than trying to make another buck to address some of these issues today and not wait until it becomes a crisis.

You know my problem with the entitlement mentality of the average UAW worker. Nothing is forever. Whether you are making condoms or cars.

It could be forever if our government in both parties displayed some sort of patriotism and protected american business and worker. I know you are a globalist gagrice and believe whom ever does it the cheapest should win.

The Government you just elected is putting Americans out of work because they can buy condoms for THREE CENTS less made in China.

That you know I'm against. Obama and this congress has disappointed me but they were better than the alternative we've had for 12 years. If your hero Hunter, would of been the republican candidate for president I would of voted for him over Obama, because of his stance on illegal immigration and NAFTA/WTO/GATT. Yes I would of crossed over.

How much can the Chinese build a Buick LaCrosse for? Maybe you will be able to afford one.

I will never buy a Chinese, made automobile no matter how much I like it. I have certain moral boundaries I won't cross.

Most American workers today cannot afford a fancy Buick. They are lucky to afford a stinking Camry stripped. Buicks are for UPPER MIDDLE CLASS. People you were raised with.

My parents were far from UPPER MIDDLE CLASS gagrice. Your kids were a lot closer to that standard than I and my brother. You made more money than both of my parents combined and I assume your significant other worked also?

Not the average middle class you like to denigrate because of the state they were born in.

I apologize if I offended anyone with my views on the southern states. I have been lucky to have traveled a bit in my life and peoples mentality in the south well happens to be a lot different than what I'm accustomed too. I take offense when people that haven't left their county in the swamp form opinions on subject matters they have nary a clue about from media sources like Rush.

-Rocky

rockylee

Well they have. The wages and benefits which has been posted on here several times is $55 an/hr for the UAW vs. $48 for the transplants. So it is $7 dollars an/hr. more to use UAW labor and after these next round of concessions the UAW takes will make that playing field equal. Perhaps finally people like yourself will finally end the bashing of the UAW, but I won't hold my breath waiting for that day to come. :sick:

-Rocky

lemko

Bernie Madoff is a very sharp dresser. I guess he's all that!

The only chicks you're going to pick up in a Lexus are aging golddiggers with three divorces and two facelifts under their tummy-tucked belts.

cooterbfd

".....If Buicks are such great cars why does the average dealer only sell three a month?"

Because today, they have the same stigma attached to them (with older people) as minivans do (with soccer moms). Hopefully, the 2010 Lacrosse will change that. BTW Buick has been selling more Lucernes than Toyota has Avalons. And no, not to rental fleets, either. My FIL was in Fla last week, and couldn't get an American car. Had to settle for a Camry, and all he did was complain about what a POS it was....no power (must've been a 4 banger), and the wind blew it all over the highway.

lemko

Well then I'd be competing against myself. I have two Cadillacs and two Buicks in my household fleet. The Cadillacs are nice special occassions cars, but the Buicks are our everyday rides.

rockylee

Well that depends on what you want. If you want a performance based luxury car like BMW well the obvious choice is Cadillac. If you want a luxurious, smooth supple ride like Lexus, well you would choose a Buick. :shades:

-Rocky

gagrice

Do you sit in your DTS with greasy pants on?

I think there is a lot to be said for a clean work environment. The problem in the GM Corvette plant was undoubtedly a result of UAW WORK RULES. I don't sweep floors and the janitor is in the drunk lock up for 3 days. You and Rocky continue to make excuses for the slovenly behavior of the UAW workers. Expecting a certain level of dress and cleanliness is not Slavery.

I have no problem wearing Shorts and a T-shirt to test drive a Mercedes or BMW. I would not go in dirty and expect to be welcomed with open arms.

lemko

I don't wear dirty pants in my '88 Park Ave let alone my DTS.

gagrice

I guess Lexus tacked on the "h" to make hypocritical wannabe greenies feel good about piloting their barge.

Funny story that goes along with that whole LS600h. Lexus gave the supposedly green Paul McCartney one of the first ones. They flew it to the UK in a 747 transport that spewed more GHG than the car could possibly save in it lifetime. The carbon footprint of the rich and famous is fine as long as they don't preach to US common folk.

So what is the average carbon footprint of a UAW worker?

dbostondriver

Lets say you can only have one car? V-6 Lucerne vs V-6 Cadillac?
I don't wear pants in my car, but have to admit that the Buick is a sweet fleet ride.

Is anyone here a SMB owner? Do you prefer union labor or use non-union?

dbostondriver

The h is more of a gimmick. Still has a lot of HP but weak on the fuel economy. :lemon:
Lexus is making a larger upscale Prius to address fuel economy.

lemko

Well, that's a tough call. Does the V-6 Lucerne have the 3.6 V-6 or the 3.8 V-6. The 3.8 works fine in the LaCrosse, but I think it's no match for the heavier Lucerne. The 3.6, though smaller, is a better match. I have a hard time with having a V-6 in a Cadillac. When it comes to a Caddy, I want a V-8. I guess I'd take the more prestigious Cadillac if I could only have one car and it would be a V-6 STS. I like the CTS, but it's a bit too small for me. A V-6 CTS would be a perfect fit for my girlfriend, though I believe she's a die-hard Buick fan.

lemko

Sure as heck hope the Lexus version doesn't look like a Prius!!!

dbostondriver

GM guys always blame this magical stigma. Hyundai's used to have huge stigma, so big that they had to have a guaranteed 5yr 100,000 mile warranty. Now they are the only company with increase in sales.
If Buick put out a competitive, stylish, and reliable car with a 5-6spd auto maybe they would sell more cars. The new LaCrosse is a start, but maybe the next Lucerne would do well by high revving, direct inject, or turbo 4cyl.
By the way, the new LaCrosse was developed by Buick China on the global platform. They must have a thing for the new Mazda6,
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/FVDP/Preview/styleId=101001351

dbostondriver

I don't think the new Lexus/Prius will sell well. It is pretty ugly, and lets face it; if you have $40k to spend on a car; are gas prices a big problem?

gagrice

I know you are a globalist gagrice and believe whom ever does it the cheapest should win.

I am a realist. There is a difference. I realize there is little you or fintail or I can do about the powers running the WORLD. Obama is just a pawn like you and I. It just annoys me that the UAW workers and leaders are so stupid they would rather lose everything than give enough to save the company they say they love. The UAW workers are just as greedy as the globalist you hate.

If your hero Hunter, would of been the republican candidate for president I would of voted for him over Obama

He was not allowed to play. He was not part of the global elite as Obama and McCain are. Even Palin would be better than the other choices. She was smeared from the get go by the same people you hate.

My parents were far from UPPER MIDDLE CLASS gagrice. Your kids were a lot closer to that standard than I and my brother. You made more money than both of my parents combined and I assume your significant other worked also?

When my kids were at the college age in the mid 90s, there is no way I could afford to send them to anything but a local college. UAW workers making $80k+ are UPPER MIDDLE CLASS. You can deny it. That does not change the facts. The Median family income in this country is under $50k per year. My best years were from the late 1990s till I retired in 2006. My wife and her deceased husband had a reinforcing steel company when he died. She sold her share to her stepson. It was a Union shop until her husband died. The son busted the union in about 1998 when the economy was in the toilet out here.

Unions have a way of running companies into bankruptcy. Think GM and Chrysler.....

I apologize if I offended anyone with my views on the southern states.

I think you have to look at the mentality in the Midwest as well. They have been losing jobs to the South since the 1960s. Do the UAW workers ever question, WHY? Automaking is not rocket science in spite of what your family tells you about the scope of the average UAW job. It can be done by someone in Arkansas, Mexico, Japan, India or China. All with equal quality or lack of quality.

dbostondriver

100% agreed Gagrice. I do not understand how Michiganers can dis on the south.
Michigan has the highest unemployment rate, lowest house values, is cold, and home of the Detroit Lions. :lemon:
The two cities I would least like to move to are Detroit and Buffalo. No offense.

gagrice

I think they have their own Lexus.....

What does our supposedly PRO UNION Speaker of the House drive?

imidazol97

>Had to settle for a Camry, and all he did was complain about what a POS it was

I thought they were God's gift to the US from the land of the rising sun! Aren't they perfect? Well, other than sludge, erratically shifting transmissions, head gaskets, --you should read the repair threads on Camry here on Edmunds.

marsha7

"Automaking is not rocket science in spite of what your family tells you about the scope of the average UAW job."...what rocky forgets is that back in the 50s and 60s, many Southerners, looking for better paid work (which it was) moved up North en masse to work in the auto plants...

So, while he bashes the South for being dumb hicks, they are many of the folks his father worked with from the 50s thru the 70s and 80s...and then has the gall to call it "skilled work", that only the "educated" Northerners can perform...heck, if it wasn't for child labor laws, you could probably train a 12 year old to do it in about a day or so...

There is a reason that you can work in an auto plant with a 2nd or 3rd grade education, making you virtually illiterate, and that is because the job can be trained in about the same time as it takes to sweep the floor in WalMart...

Rock, you can't have it both ways...but don't worry, the collective intelligence of the UAW will kill the Big 3 rather than save their overpaid jobs...

You mentioned earlier about a mere $7/hour difference between UAW and non-union automakers...that is not quite the whole story...that assumes that both plants hire the same number of workers to make the same number of cars...you muct remember that Honda makes as many cars with 2000 workers as GM does with 6000 workers, so it is $7/hour multiple by GM's extra 4000 workers PER PLANT, all due to silly UAW work restrictions...so that comes to $28,000 PER HOUR, $280,000 per day (10 hour day), approx $1.5 million per week per plant, $75 million dollars per year...now multiple $75 million times the number of GM plants, and it does add up...that does not count for the UAW absenteeism due to drunks and drug addicts...and you wonder why their cost structure is ridiculous???

Now you know why the UAW is a relic from the past, and needs to die now...just like buggy whip makers served a vital function until the automobile, the UAW served a vital function in the 30s and 40s, when they really were needed...no more, though...their gravy train is OVER...pack up Detroit and mail it to Canada...

I assure you that is the volcanic eruption from Alaska all lands on Detroit and covers it up with 6 feet of soot and ash, no one will miss the City of Detroit...we might miss Oak Park and Southfield, as they had great delicatessans, but losing them is a small price to pay... :P :sick:

andre1969

Does the V-6 Lucerne have the 3.6 V-6 or the 3.8 V-6. The 3.8 works fine in the LaCrosse, but I think it's no match for the heavier Lucerne. The 3.6, though smaller, is a better match.

The Lucerne V-6 just went to the 3.9 unit for 2009. The 3.9 is a 60-degree pushrod engine that's an enlarged version of the 3.5. In turn, the 3.5 is basically a heavily worked version of the 3.1/3.4 engine, which itself is an enlargement of the old 2.8 that first came out in the Chevy Citation in 1980!

But, don't let that scare you away. When the 3.9 first came out, it used a beefed-up block and heavier-duty components, as it was primarily designed as a police car engine, for use in the Impala. Initially, it was a bit of a guzzler, but the EPA estimates I've seen for the 2009 Lucerne put it at 17/26. The 2008 Lucerne, which used a 3.8, was rated 16/25.

For comparison, Lemko, your '88 Park Ave is rated at 17/26 using the newer EPA ratings. The original EPA sticker read 19/29. So I'd guess the 3.9 Lucerne should get about the same economy.

The 3.6 DOHC engine still has more hp, I believe, than the 3.9, but the 3.9 might have a bit more torque.

rockylee

gagrice, your perception of the UAW-GM plants is totally wrong. If you think factory workers should wear Armani Suits it really goes to show your lack of knowledge regarding manufacturing. lemko and I live in industrial states and each of us have either worked in or had a relative that has worked in manufacturing. I guess life at the phone company isn't a place where you get your hands dirty or are you so caught up in the media conspiracy that UAW workers don't work hard thus how could they get dirty? :confuse: :sick:

-Rocky

rockylee

I think you got your numbers wrong pal. It takes 3x the number of dumb southern hicks to do the job of one northerner. Why else do you think they built the plants up here in the north a century ago???...It sure in the hell wasn't for the great weather!!! :P

Seriously I will put the IQ of your average northerner against the south any day of the week!!! The reason why they are building stuff in the south is because they can get away with playing the religion card to dumb down the sheeple. They contribute a small sum of money to the local churches and the people will work like slaves while at work if you can get them to show up not under the influence of Meth. The bible capital of the world the Panhandle of Texas, also had the highest drug use of any area in the U.S. per capita. Pampa was #1 in the U.S. for Meth thus don't give me this hawg wash story of how much harder working and better moral human beings your non-union laborers are than UAW workers marsha7. :mad:

-Rocky

dbostondriver

My only experience with the UAW is what I have seen on Discovery channel and CNN. The examples I saw were not that impressive.
So what is the average day at the GM plant like? Are you at the jobs bank right now Rocky.
And don't dis on Southerners. I live in Boston, but all my family lives in Atlanta and Florida. There are some great schools down there, great business, and good people.
I have not heard a single good thing about Detroit except for Ted Nugent and Eminem. That is an extremely biased comment. Also last I checked Florida and LSU had beat Ohio State and Oklahoma in the Football and Basketball championships the last few years.
Michigan has been in a perpetual recession for years, propagated by Union Labor.
Last but not least= The Detroit Lions 0-16! :shades:

kernick

I know you are a globalist gagrice and believe whom ever does it the cheapest should win.

So you think everyone in the U.S. should be a "nationalist"? Support your country and the hell with the rest of the world, because they're not as important as 'us"? Is that the same mentality the UAW uses to support why the average lower-paid worker has to support the UAW thru loans to their employers?

And before you go promoting buy American and making a case for your pampered middle-class, consider any history you might have learned. What are the great events throughout history that nationalism has inspired?

tlong

You claim wage parity of the UAW vs. Transplants, which may be getting close. But don't ignore the bigger issue - the retirement costs paid by GM. Which means they don't have money to put higher quality content in the design and manufacture of their vehicles. And consumers can see that which is why their market share is declining. So the UAW affects the health of GM greatly. You want a healthy GM and you also want the big benefits for the UAW. Which is it going to be?

rockylee

Well that depends on the plant. It is back breaking work if you are on the assembly line. A lot of my relatives have had knee replacements, shoulder surgeries, and some carpal tunnel. It is not a rosy job like some on here make it out to be. I've been in three different GM plants in my lifetime. I've delivered industrial chemicals for a couple of them and have been to many suppliers. I worked at Johnson Controls back in the day and I would leave the facility covered in fiber glass, sweat, scratches, skin irritations, making car parts for sometimes 12 hours. I encourage you all to go on a plant tour like imidazol97, has done. I think imidazol97, will tell you that the work isn't the funnest job in the world. You only have so much time to get your work done before the next car is coming. Other area's like car parts is totally different than assembly line work.

-Rocky

rockylee

So you are comparing my nationalism to that of the German people in support of the Third Reich. Interesting as that has been brought up in the past. So I guess if you are nationalistic you think like a [non-permissible content removed]. I swear you globalist are something else.

As far as the hell with the rest of the world???...I say the hell with them until we get our home in order!!!!

-Rocky

dbostondriver

Thanks for the insight. I have no doubt that plant workers work hard. It is just that in this economy everyone has to sacrifice, and that includes the UAW.
Also a collared shirt, factory gym, random drug tests, and corporate softball leagues would be good too. Maybe even tuition reimbursement?

rockylee

That $7 dollars an hour was including wages and benefits tlong. The UAW & Big 3 were doing this country a social good and I'm not going to apologize because I have straight teeth because my father had good insurance. D3 retirees weren't sucking tax payer money i.e. medicare/medicaid because they had benefits. The Transplant workers will be on medicare and medicaid and the sad thing is many of you are okay with that because that is where you will be because your employer doesn't provide insurance. The funny thing is many of you same people will claim to be against national healthcare so which is it??? :P

-Rocky

dbostondriver

I will say this. Loosing the Corvette and Mustang would be a tragedy. The Mustang is a great looking car.

dbostondriver

Rocky, UAW has ridiculous retiree benefits. Full health, pension, etc. after only 30 years. I pump 10% of my wages in order to save for my retirement. Fair is Fair, and full pension for 30 years is not fair to GM. It will migrate plants to Mexico, Utah, and Tennessee.

rockylee

Ylur welcome. The UAW-D3 do some of those things. The 36th St. GM plant here in Grand Rapids, MI. that is closing put a gym a few years ago inside of the plant for all employees to use to stay fit. My dad played on his GM softball league and they have a tuition reimbursement program.

-Rocky

lemko

True, gagrice I realize there is little we can do about the powers RUINING the WORLD! :mad:

UAW workers making $80k+ are UPPER MIDDLE CLASS.

They are? Geeze, then I must be one of the elite and I didn't even know it!!! From what I've experienced, $80K in Philly buys you a lower middle or middle middle class lifestyle. You have to go well north of $100K for that upper middle class lifestyle. I guess $80K buys you a pretty good living in the Midwest. Nice work...if you can find it anymore.

dbostondriver

That is awesome. It is good to here that long term intrinsic benefits are being assessed too by the UAW.
Now just take a 20% pension hair cut, add 5 more years to the vesting time frame, and reduce wages by 5% across the board. And dump Saturn.

rockylee

They did not have 401K plans back then. 401K didn't really become popular until the 1990's. You saw how reliable those plans have been this last year when most people lost 40%. If I want those kind of odds well I'll take my money to Vegas. 401K plans are a joke and is another bill of goods sold to the sheeple to make them think they were all going to be multi-millionaires living in Florida, on the beach!!! :confuse:

-Rocky

rockylee

The pension will last for 50-60 years as it stands so why address that??? GM, isn't worried about that. They are worried about rising healthcare costs. How about us addressing the healthcare costs and lower the premiums for GM, would be a great start.

-Rocky

dbostondriver

First of all, the market returns an average of 7% long term. Second, how can GM not be worried about paying near full pay to retirees for 50-60 years.
If you ran a company, would you be cool with paying pensions for 50-60 years for only 30 years of work.
It will be great when GM goes bankrupt and the union will be SOL.

lemko

Right on, Rocky!!! Do you think the rest of the world gives a rat's butt about us? Heck, half the world is plotting to destroy us and the other half is trying to exploit us! :mad:

stever

Back in our world (the one that revolves around the UAW), U.S. Automakers Are Said to Near 10,000 UAW Buyouts. (Bloomberg)

"GM, Ford and Chrysler are trying to get as many of their 132,600 UAW members as possible to leave to help cut labor costs to the level of non-union workers at Japanese-owned U.S. plants."

dbostondriver

GM is making layoffs anyway it can. Free market economy.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-begins-whitecollar-layoffs-apf-14729390.html?se- c=topStories&pos=7&asset=TBD&ccode=TBD

grbeck

rockylee: Seriously I will put the IQ of your average northerner against the south any day of the week!!!

Only problem is that an ever-increasing number of people are comparing the vehicles built by non-union southerners and UAW northerners, and choosing the former. So high IQ must not be required to build a competitive vehicle...

rockylee: The reason why they are building stuff in the south is because they can get away with playing the religion card to dumb down the sheeple. They contribute a small sum of money to the local churches and the people will work like slaves while at work if you can get them to show up not under the influence of Meth.

Someone indoctrinated in UAW-think ridiculing anyone else for being a "sheeple" is really quite amusing...

rockylee: The bible capital of the world the Panhandle of Texas, also had the highest drug use of any area in the U.S. per capita. Pampa was #1 in the U.S. for Meth thus don't give me this hawg wash story of how much harder working and better moral human beings your non-union laborers are than UAW workers marsha7.

As compared to Detroit, the bucolic Eden on the Great Lakes? :P

fintail

The globalists do love those comparisons. It's a key reason they sought involvement in that war to begin with - destroy the largest opponent to globalized control of finance and national direction. All at the same time embracing their own style of fascism.

Today, nations work for the benefit of corporations, certain special interest groups, and the top 1% of the population. Sadly, it continues whether or not your beloved unions exist.

The 30 year amazing retirement schemes are going to have to die, or the UAW will be completely gone within a decade.