United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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Comments

  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    So doing one evil justifies doing another evil.
    These cases are incredibly different, and while I don't agree with AIG's bailout it is completely different from bailing out a manufacturing/retail company.
    AIG is being given money in order to keep liquidity so that they can insure bank investments. This allows companies like GM and Ford and customers like us to get credit.
    Bailing out GM is like giving Circuit city or Pan-Am money to stay in business. The business model and management failed, but your handing out cash just so the business can exist.
    Yes GM is large, but so was Texaco, Delta, Worldcom, United Airlines, Manville, Malden Mills etc. The only difference is that people are emotionally attached to GM (and their crappy cars).
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Before you get that Aura, you should read the Edmund's long term test.
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=121777

    "All this reaffirmed our original hypothesis: The Aura is a decent car, but it's no Camry and it's no Accord. Fortunately, it's at least a start."
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    It's pretty hard to justify the 33 days our Aura spent out of service during its time with us. Even our 1984 Ferrari 308 GTB was only out of service for 25 days and it was built before some of our staffers.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    AIG is being given money in order to keep liquidity so that they can insure bank investments.

    Taxpayers own 80% of AIG and they certainly insure their bonus. If they would have gone bankrupt, the contracts would be null and void. Then the taxpayers could have owned 100% of AIG as liquidation at this fire sale.

    You fail to mention that GM is in dire straight from GMAC going into the subprime business. The UAW is very much solvent and living within its means/income. Your just punishing good hard working folks who may in fact be frugal and conservative fiscally. I work beside many who have amassed fortunes of seven digits and are far from the stereotypes you claim all UAW workers to be.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Neely was some good luck...but what has become of the team in modern times? The team hasn't won a playoff series in a decade, and I see no light at the end of the tunnel. Jacobs is a greedy egoistic cheapskate when it comes to that team. Sounds like he might have simply bought something that wasn't in bad condition at the time."

    What I think Jacobs and Sinden have tried to do, was keep costs under control, while some teams (Detroit, the Rangers, Dallas) were spending like drunken sailors.

    Interesting parallel is that, while the foreign automakers were investing wisely, the D3 and UAW were spending like drunken sailors. The NJ Devils may be considered the best run franchise in hockey, much in the way Honda may be considered the best run car company right now.

    The only thing is I have FAR less sympathy for the $8,000,000 goaltender taking a paycut than I do the $80,000 forklift oper......(GASP.....what did I say????) NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Not that again......Gary, please bite your lip..... :cry:
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    No one watches hockey except people in Detroit and Canadians.
    Football baby!
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    General Motors’ Arlington plant
    Products: Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban; GMC Yukon and Yukon XL; Cadillac Escalade and Escalade ESV

    Capacity: 450-500 vehicles per eight-hour shift, two shifts a day

    Employees: About 2,280 UAW-represented production workers; about 200 nonunion management and engineering staff.

    2008 payroll: $309 million

    http://www.star-telegram.com/189/story/1218230.html
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Don't underestimate New Englanders. Back in the late '60's, The Bruins sold out games not just because of Orr, but because they were rabid hockey nuts. Hell, the Celtics couldn't sell out playoff games back then, because it was Hockey, Hockey, Baseball, and Hockey (pre 1967).

    Football players can't hold a candle athletically or in toughness to a Hockey player.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am not sure I can believe what I am reading. Had to look again at the poster.... I would not bail out either one. Then I have no feelings about any sports person. I think they are all WAY OVER PAID. Same with show people.

    Bailing out people that make dumb decisions with money I worked hard for just does not sit right with me.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    I can't wait till Nardelli, Wagoner, and Nardelli show up to congress to explain why they could not come to terms with labor and bondholders. "It's impossilbe Mr. Prez!" "Than how did Ford do it?" "They cheated Mr. Prez, now give us some tax money."
    Since the deficit is so high it is actually loaned Chinese treasuries.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well in the press plants where doors are made where my aunt and uncle worked well it wasn't a cake walk.It of course has gotten better over the years but most of the wear and tear on the body was done in their earliest years before ergonomics became a top priority. My cousin whom is 10 or so years older than me says the work in the Lansing, MI. Delta plant is very hard on his body and he is one who's in good physical condition. As time goes forward so will ergonomics. You gotta remember Toyota, has built modern plants where ergonomics were in the business model and thought about. The old mentality was once the worker was woren out the boss would say get me another!!! That is just reality back then.

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I respectfully disagree!!! My state would fall apart if the Big 3 were to go under. If you think unemployment is bad in Michigan, let the Big 3 go belly up. :sick:

    -Rocky
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    More reason for GM to break ties with the UAW. The job is so guaranteed and benefit laden that even though your parents are falling apart, you still work for the same place that is killing you parents.
    And Rocky, I thought you said the quality of the plant did not matter?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I've had some really awful people these last couple of days. I had one customer that wanted a new Traverse, that stickered for $33K for $18K OTD and when we told him it was impossible he was pissed off!!! I've had a couple call me a liar, dishonest, you name it. I purchased a Trailblazer from the auction for a customer who told me as I was bidding how high to go and the next day backed out saying a friend told him we were a bunch of liars and he was over paying for the vehicle. I was bidding on a 05 Trailblazer 4x4 with a Roof and Bose and could sell it to him for $15,700.....I spent a couple of hours going through each vehicle trying to find him the best value and the lowest mileage. It only had 25K on it and now we are stuck with it. :( My best customers are UAW workers because they can see that I genuinely care about each of them and more of than not one of them knows a relative of mine. :)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I said what you wear doesn't matter pal. I have always been big on ergonomics. ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I am just a son, grandson, cousin, nephew, friend of many GM/Delphi workers. I respectfully disagree with killing Buick, over Pontiac. Pontiac, is too much like Chevy. Saturn, hasn't had a brand identity since it opened outside of being known for customer service.

    -Rocky
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I said, bite your lip.....It was a slip of the tongue :P

    See?
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "..... If you think unemployment is bad in Michigan, let the Big 3 go belly up."

    Rocky, w/ all due respect, that is where the state has failed, by laying all it's eggs in one basket. Michigan should try to diversify it's industries, even with a healthy auto industry.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    You think Rocky is perhaps Wagoner or Gettlefinger in disguise?

    LOL, I would like to be CEO of GM. It was my dream job as a child. Buy enough stock and appoint me will ya!!! :P

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    LOL!!! Rick Wagoner, played basketball for Duke, I believe on a scholarship. ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    We have but the automobile sector is just too large to replace all the automobile related jobs. We have many furniture companies but they are hurting too. DeVos and Van Andel have invested big time in the healthcare fields in my city of Grand Rapids, but it's just not enough. Grand Rapids, will be one of the best if not the best medical care area's in the world.

    G-RAP

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-dE4wydKOA

    Furniture City
    During the second half of the 19th century, the city became a major lumbering center and the premier furniture manufacturing city of the United States. For this reason it was nicknamed "Furniture City". After an international exhibition in Philadelphia in 1876, Grand Rapids became recognized worldwide as a leader in the production of fine furniture. National home furnishing markets were held in Grand Rapids for about 75 years, concluding in the 1960s. Today, Grand Rapids is considered a world leader in the production of office furniture.

    In 1880, the country's first hydro-electric generator was put to use on the city's west side[4]. At the turn of the twentieth century, the people of Grand Rapids numbered 87,565. In 1916, the citizens of Grand Rapids voted to adopt a home rule charter that abolished the old aldermanic systems and replaced it with a commission-manager form of government, one of the first in the country. That 1916 Charter, although amended several times, is still in effect.

    In 1945, Grand Rapids became the first city in the United States to add fluoride to its drinking water.

    Downtown Grand Rapids used to host four department stores: Herpolsheimer's (Lazarus in 1987), Jacobson's, Steketee's (founded in 1862), and Wurzburg's. Like most downtown regional department stores, they suffered the same fate of falling sales, caused largely by the flight to the suburbs, and consolidation in the 1980s and 1990s.


    Metropolitan Area
    As of a 2007 census estimate, the Grand Rapids-Wyoming Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) had a population of 776,742, while the Grand Rapids-Muskegon-Holland Combined Statistical Area (CSA) had a population of 1,323,095.[7]


    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I've been to Arlington, and that plant despite the city's large size is very important to that area isn't it dallasdude1!!! ;) A lot of spin off business is around because of just that one plant. If that plant were to close so would a lot of connected business!!!

    -Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,481
    And another parallel,,,, some of those who spend wisely see some measure of success year after year. Kind of like some automakers who put endless sums into product refinement, and acquire reputations for it that last for decades, and are able to survive. While others with frugal ownership cheap out, and pay the price. If I could spend like a drunken sailor and have a franchise with the longterm success of the Wings, I would do it. I don't believe Ilitch is losing anything. They are more like BMW or MB than the big 2.3.

    The Devils saw a lot of success through a failure to enforce obstruction rules, especially in the 90s. Sounds more Toyota-like, unexciting ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    --An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated that the Chevy Cobalt gets 24 miles per gallon. The most popular version of the Cobalt gets 25 mpg.

    GM's worst enemy and mine as a car sales consultant=The Media :sick:

    From article: --An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated that the Chevy Cobalt gets 24 miles per gallon. The most popular version of the Cobalt gets 25 mpg.

    The Cobalt's most popular model much better than 25 mpg thus get your facts straight editor!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: The XFE is capable of 37+ mpg highway :mad:

    -Rocky
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You fail to mention that GM is in dire straight from GMAC going into the subprime business. The UAW is very much solvent and living within its means/income.

    I call another silly diversion. You treat UAW like it is a business. Who cares if the UAW spends well? We're talking about GM here, a company that should be making money. They might be without all of those UAW costs. The brilliant Union that struck almost bankrupt American Axle last year. Suck all the remaining blood out of the turnip.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I respectfully disagree!!! My state would fall apart if the Big 3 were to go under. If you think unemployment is bad in Michigan, let the Big 3 go belly up.

    I read an interesting fact yesterday. Did you know that more "American" nameplate cars are made in the province of Ontario, Canada, than in Michigan?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I've had some really awful people these last couple of days.

    Rocky, stay honest and I'm sure the good work will pay off. Your biggest problem is probably just how poor the economy is right now. We wish you the best of luck; if I were in Michigan and buying GM I would buy from you!

    And that would help the UAW! (to keep it relevant ;) )
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Economy
    Grand Rapids has long been a center for furniture and automobile manufacturing; however, the presence of both industries has declined in the region along with manufacturing in general. American Seating, Steelcase and Herman Miller, major manufacturers of office furniture, are based in the Grand Rapids area.

    In 1880, Sligh Furniture Company started manufacturing furniture.[8] In 1881, the Furniture Manufacturers Association (FMA) was organized in Grand Rapids, it was apparently the first furniture manufacturing advocacy group in the country.[9] Also Since 1912, Kindel Furniture Company,[10] and since 1922, the Hekman/Woodmark Furniture Company,[11] have been designing and manufacturing traditional American furniture in Grand Rapids. All of these companies are still producing furniture today.

    More recently the city has had some success in developing and attracting businesses focusing on the health sciences, with facilities such as the Van Andel Research Institute (primarily focused on cancer research), Grand Valley State University's Cook-DeVos Center for Health Sciences (undergraduate and graduate health-related programs, doctorate program in Physical Therapy, upcoming Doctorate of Nursing Practice (DNP)), and Michigan State University's new Grand Rapids based Medical School. Over the next several years, multiple millions of dollars are being spent on new and expanded facilities (including the Spectrum Health Cancer Pavilion, the Spectrum Health Helen DeVos Children's Hospital and an addtion to the Van Andel Institute, which will more than double its space. Most of these buildings are located in the Michigan Street medical corridor, and is commonly known as "Medical Mile". Employment opportunities thrive and the growth has developed specialized health science employment groups to facilitate the influx, such as the [3]Medical Mile Group].

    The Grand Rapids area is also home to a number of well known companies that include; Alticor/Amway (a consumer goods manufacturer and distributor), Foremost Insurance Company (a specialty lines insurance company), Meijer (a reigonal Supercenter chain), GE Aviation (formerly Smiths Industries, an Aerospace products company), Wolverine World Wide (a designer and manufacturer of shoes, boots and clothing), MC Sports, Inc. (a regional sports retail chain) and Universal Forest Products (a building materials company).

    The city is also known as a center of Christian publishing, home to Zondervan, Baker Books, Kregel Publications, and Eerdmans Publishing.

    The surrounding area is noted for its fruit production. Due to its close proximity to Lake Michigan the climate is considered prime for apple, peach, and blueberry farming.

    In recent years, the convention business has seen an increase following the construction of the DeVos Place Convention Center.


    We are 2nd in the world next to Detroit, in automotive but as you can see we have a diverse economy in Grand Rapids. The suburbs like Holland/Zeeland, are filled with manufacturing plants like Gentex, Johnson Controls, Herman Miller, Donnelly, Haworth, Tier Yachts, all of which are non-union and are struggling to stay alive

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well not if you factor "made" as in parts to be included. Michigan, has more parts made to a car than any other state by far and away. We have a crap load of supplier plants just on this side of the state. Ontario, Canada is indeed a huge final assembly place though!!!!

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well Beth, sold her 15th car today and I'm truly happy for my best friend. She can't even believe it was possible in these tough times. She sold 4 yesterday and her coworkers aren't even close to her and are in shock n' aw!!! I am now considering a sex change and pumps I told her!!! :P I'm jealous of her because I work in a more affluent part of Grand Rapids, a northern suburb known as Rockford. We also get East Grand Rapids, clients whom are the wealthiest people in the area. East Grand Rapids, is so wealthy there basketball coach makes as much as 4 UAW workers but that probably explains why there high school ranks among the top in academics and has won more high school state championships than any other school in the U.S. ;) American Pie, movie series was based on East Grand Rapids, but the story line was fictional of course. Remember East Great Falls ;)

    EGR, is also the hometown of our most famous former Grand Rapids, resident and President of the United States, Gerald R. Ford. He was a decent president from what I read about him. I in fact watched a video about him on PBS the other night but was too tired to watch the ending. If I remember right Gerry Ford, was against globalism I think. Is that correct information???

    I also appreciate your kind words saying you would buy a UAW made car from me. The economy is tough despite our diversity and I've lost a lot of deals not because I did anything wrong but because the imports are able to lease or Ford or Chrysler are giving em' away. Beth, gets 3-4x the volume that I do at her Chevy dealership because she is on perhaps the busiest street in Michigan called 28th street. I like where I work and love my boss because he cares about his people. I also have good coworkers also. She has stress that I don't deal with day to day due to a rotating door of sales staff and management that back stab one another. I was recruited by another dealer though today that wanted me to sell Hyundai's, in Holland. The devil angel on my left shoulder was telling me to do it Rocky! It was tempting!!! The angel on my right shoulder said Rocky, you are a UAW-GM man and don't sell your soul to the devil!!! :surprise:

    -Rocky
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    It's pretty hard to justify the 33 days our Aura spent out of service during its time with us. Even our 1984 Ferrari 308 GTB was only out of service for 25 days and it was built before some of our staffers.

    That was my thought exactly. From the article:
    Total Routine Maintenance Costs (over [16] months): $223.24
    Additional Maintenance Costs: 0
    Warranty Repairs: 5
    Non-Warranty Repairs: 0
    Scheduled Dealer Visits: 4
    Unscheduled Dealer Visits: 6
    Days Out of Service: 33
    Breakdowns Stranding Driver: None


    Not a whole lot different from my '87 BMW! Except, of course, I had no warranty repairs or any unscheduled dealer visits :shades:

    So,this is an example of one of the D3's best?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I respectfully disagree!!! My state would fall apart if the Big 3 were to go under. If you think unemployment is bad in Michigan, let the Big 3 go belly up.

    It would be tough for a while, but people, cities, and states survive these kinds of things. Metropolitan Baltimore survived the closing of it's GM plant and the closing of Bethlehem Steel which, at one time, was the largest employer in the state. The biggest losers, in my mind, were the Beth Steel retirees who had their pensions cut, sometimes significantly, when the plan was taken over by the PBGC. But, they have survived - just not as comfortably as before.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Expect all banks that took the TARP funds and CAN pay it back to do so ASAP....the rest will be nationalized.

    Just like the Auto Industry. Government-issue cars and UAW Government employees.

    Sounds about right. :(

    Regards,
    OW
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    That maintenance cost of $223.24 threw me off at first. According to the article, they put around 21,800 miles on the car, and I was thinking that as maintenance-free as modern cars are, what could it possibly need in that amount of time?

    But heck, these days if you're anal about oil changes and do them every 3,000 miles, and do a tire rotation, say, every 3rd oil change, I guess just that could run over $200. Plus, throw in an air filter or two. And if that thing has a pollen/dust filter for inside, I guess that would run the cost up pretty quickly.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Some Chevrolet dealers could shame a Lexus dealer. The dealership from which my girlfriend purchased her 2001 Impala was immaculate and the service was A-1 ! My Cadillac dealer just built a beautiful new place down the street from where my girlfriend bought her LaCrosse.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My awesome 1989 Cadillac Brougham was built in the Arlington plant 20 years ago. They sure know how to build 'em in Texas!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Budd used to build auto bodies in Philadelphia some time ago. A guy who worked in the huge plant on Hunting Park Avenue back in the 1940s said the place was a butcher shop. It wasn't uncommon to see men with missing fingers or occassionally witness a nasty accident with a press.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Too bad you guys don't sell Buicks. I might fly out there to personally buy the first 2010 LaCrosse you guys get.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Oh, I have seen that Sparrows Point plant. That place is IMMENSE!!!
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Edmund's reviews the Cobalt XFE too. Rickety seats, manual windows, solid rear axle, and no acceleration. That thing is a real winner.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    ? Detroit Lions t-shirts?
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Had our corporate masters not sold us out, the Chinese would still be too busy killing their own people under Chairman Mao's "Great Leap Forward" and we'd still be a wealthy industrialized nation living in immense prosperity.

    Don't you think that the Chinese would've figured out on their own that this communism thing just wasn't working out?

    Anyway, this is a car forum, & I haven't seen any Chinese cars on the streets of my town. And I'm surprised you haven't worked yourself into a white-hot rage over the damage that the Germans have done to your beloved Cadillac. All of those luxury car sales lost to BMW & Mercedes Benz have cost GM untold billions of dollars.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Seems we had a pretty awesome lifestyle when we were keeping the Russians and Chinese at bay with our ICBMs.

    I'd say our lifestyle (materially) now is far better than the 70's and early 80's. Our houses are larger, larger and better TV's, everyone's got a cellphone, airfares are cheap with more and more people travelling ...

    I used to work at a submarine shipyard, and needless to say my workplace was getting hit in the first 15 minutes by a Russian sub in the Atlantic.

    I think you and a lot of people need to find why you're not happy, or a way to be happy unless you have the newest Escalade or Lacrosse in the driveway. ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Had a 77 GP and remember the gas lines and odd/even days! Meanwhile, the tankers are moored off-shore.

    Regards,
    OW
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Hey, it is pretty obvious we have one thing that was not around in the '70s or '80s: the internet. Think how less educated and entertained we would be without it.
    It gives us a chance to argue over the UAW.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Unions, in steep decline, have in some cases forced pricey benefits and high wages that bled industries to the point of insolvency. Conversely, Dickensian sweatshops and child labor are history in large part because of organized labor. Workers today are struggling with layoffs, benefit cutbacks, and decreases in work hours. They watch executives walk off with obscene paychecks, float away from companies they've ruined on golden parachutes, and scoop up bonuses at worker expense, and they justifiably clamor for fair treatment."

    "Free Choice" is a faux choice; retain the secret ballot (Fredericksburg.com)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What I miss is the lifestyle all hard-working people seemed to enjoy in the 1950s and 1960s: a nice modest house, a nice modest vacation to the shore every summer, a crime and blight free neighborhood

    Well we had 1 of the above in the 1950s. Relatively little crime. Maybe it is the fact that people did not feel entitled to having every thing as the UAW is now displaying. We nearly starved in 1953. We ate broken Oreos & Graham Crackers my dad brought home while working at Nabisco in Portland Oregon. He was going to college days and working nights. Our rental house leaked on my bed in the loft. It was freezing at night as the house was not insulated. I think you and Rocky got your perception of the 1950s by watching Ozzie and Harriet re-runs. Then again maybe the fat cat UAW families lived like what you see in the movies. I am to this day frugal and conservative with my money as I do not want a repeat of my life in the 1950s
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The increasing use of the gun-to-the-head gambit even percolated to normally relaxed Chrysler president Tom LaSorda, who told the Canadian government the company would leave the country entirely if the Canadian Auto Workers union did not make new wage concessions and an ongoing tiff over taxes wasn't settled.

    Chrysler makes its segment-defining Chrysler Town & Country and Dodge Grand Caravan minivan as well as the Chrysler 300 sedan in Canada; it has some 9,000 direct employees there. Chrysler and the CAW began negotiations just this week."

    Chrysler Rhetoric Gets Contradictory - and Desperate? (AutoObserver)
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