Looks like Chrysler is DOA.... The looming threat of deeper cuts and bankruptcy also suggests a tough course for the UAW, which refused a previous offer on its retiree health care trusts from GM and Chrysler and has pressed for the bondholders to make some sacrifice. The $30.6 billion due from the two automakers to their UAW health care trusts have the same standing in bankruptcy as unsecured bonds -- meaning a judge could reduce them.
i do get the feeling the uaw wont give a inch sometimes...JHC if company goes bankrupt they may not get jack...now if we could only outsource healthcare which is a huge bruden to us companies...any us business is at a 30% disadvantage due to hospitals, prescription drugs
i would rather give the $$$ to depressed michigan and ohio just as long as they are pretty good...i was looking at kias and all that i saw were 99% korean made ..korea, japan and china protect there industries...i live NH and we just had a lumber mill shut down, a big reason is canadian lumber is subsidized by govt and ours does nothing to even playing field for our industries...free market sucks, how about a fair market so we have more blue collar workers?...and as far as excellence goes in US, the only thing we are great at now is being biggest debtor nation in history
My problem with anything from Detroit is simple: I want to give my business to people who are actually grateful for it. As I'm grateful to my employer to give me job and to my employer's clients to give us work, a little bit of that would be really nice from Detroit. Not that attitude of entitlement, self-importance and combativenesness. They actually think it's acceptable to vandlize somebody's property (as Rocky repeteadly and proudly told us his union friend would do) or even threaten their safety if they dare not to chose their divine product or worse dare to come near their sacred place of their devine-given jerbs.
This actually makes me less likely to buy anything from them - I would rather give my business to people just anywhere else - simply because they know what it's their honor to sell me their product, not mine to buy theirs.
"They actually think it's acceptable to vandlize somebody's property (as Rocky repeteadly and proudly told us his union friend would do)"
It is not only acceptable, to them it is a badge of honor...UAW had never wanted to earn your business, they believe the law should mandate it...fortunately, it does not...rather than fight to make the best product, they just fight to keep the jobs of people who make products that no one wants to buy...allow me to correct that...products that not enough people want to buy in order to keep them afloat...
There is no question that GM and Ford still sell cars, and quite a few of them...but they allowed their cost structure to become unmanageable and now their breakeven point is so high that even a "good" year of sales is not sufficient...as gagrice said, even in the last 5 years of record sales, GM lost money...if your best years cannot yield a profit, how soon before a bankruptcy becomes mandated by common sense???
Plus, as stated earlier, their entire business model of auto production is no longer viable, altho it was perfect until the 80s or so...due to UAW work restrictions, they need 3X the workers to make an equal number of cars as Toyota or Honda...simply put, that inflates their labor cost per vehicle far too much...
The solution is to dump 2/3 of the present work force and alter mode of production to the more effective method of Honda and Toyota...the UAW model is beyond obsolete...its only prupose is to "create" jobs out of thin air, but there is no money in that thin air to pay them...
I do not remember the year this occurred, but at one point there used to be a janitor for every six workers on machines...their job was to sweep up the messes made by the machinists (why the machinists could not sweep their own mess is another UAW featherbedding story, but this gets worse)...so, it was 1 janitor per 6 workers...then, by magic (a new UAW contract) it became 1 Janitor per 3 workers...overnight, the janitor payroll doubled...mind you, there was no trouble for 1 janitor to keep up with a mere 6 workers, but now it was 1 for 3...that meant the average janitor probably put in 1-2 hours of work daily instead of 2-4 hours (in an 8 hour day)...
Wonder why GM is not worth saving???...because if a true management expert walked in and critiqued the average plant, they could probably cut the work force by 80% and still make the cars, assuming that UAW work restrictions were removed and the method of production was modernized...all the UAW ever did was e-x-p-a-n-d the payroll over the years, raising overhead thru the roof, ultimately expanding legacy costs...if the modern method was in place 30 years ago, I would bet that with fewer workers, thereby fewer workers retiring, their legacy costs would be cut by more than half, because, if Honda's method was used, they only need 1/3 the workers to make their cars...if GM did this, legacy costs would have been for 1/3 the number of people they hired...
The UAW has poisoned manufacturing...it is time for the antidote...Chapter 11 is coming, the sooner the better...
There is truth to that. But, if GM had not buckled under for decades and let UAW wages/benefits get out of whack adding unnecessary cost to build cars, then top Management (if they were smart enough) could have put those extra dollars into engineering and better parts and closer tolerances. So, UAW still shares blame.
Yes, it's all connected. Just like the end game. The UAW is showing it's greed which is how it's supposed to be.
Excellent Post! Very close to how a huge swath of Americans feel about companies that thumb their noses at customers but are quick to beg for taxpayer dollars to bail them out of gross mismanagement, greed and failures, one after another. Even in restructuring, the decisions continue to boggle the mind. The UAW is getting some great bad press out of the negotiations.
free market sucks, how about a fair market so we have more blue collar workers?
Think about what you are saying. Do you want us to be less efficient? Is that any way to be the best? OK, if you want us to be more efficient and yet have more blue collar workers, then you need to sell more. And to sell more the products need to be competitive for other countries, too. Why would anybody in Japan buy a big American left-hand drive SUV that rattles like a poisonous snake? Why doesn't the UAW start being worth their high expense by striking for quality cars rather than for more to line their own pockets?
If you want more blue collar workers then $35/hr floor sweeping is NOT going to do it.
as far as excellence goes in US, the only thing we are great at now is being biggest debtor nation in history
Agree this is a risk. But we are excellent in biotechnology, computer software, entertainment industries.
A piece of electronics trivia, as this has been my field since 1960 . . .
Beg to differ on the 1st transistor radio... the 1st commercially-available production model transistor radio was manufactured in the USA by Regency in Indianapolis, IN in October 1954. The model was the TR-1. Similar models quickly appeared on the market from TI (Texas Instruments), Raytheon, and Zenith.
Sony is often attributed for marketing the 1st transistor radio in the United States, but it's not factual.
It is simple...the UAW never worried about quality, they just wanted to sell us their junk and have the gov't either put up a protectionist barrier to keep Honda and Toyota out, or raise tariffs to do the same thing...
The actual thought of COMPETING by making a better car was, and is, the furthest thing from their simplistic sheeple minds...all they think is that their jobs should be protected regardless of what they make or that no one wants to buy it...
The UAW should join the Roman Empire in the dustbin of history, and, without the UAW to tell them how to think and how to act, maybe the workers' minds can be salvaged and they can learn the concept of craftsmanship, altho I severely doubt it, as they have been fed the UAW sheeple mentality for half a century, and it takes time to evolve defective DNA out of the gene pool...
To this day they still think their cars of the 70s and 80s were masterpieces, but they were the sowing the seeds of today's downfall...they cruised thru the 90s but the roots were getting stronger, as they went deeper and deeper into the quicksand...now it is too late, and making 2 good cars like Malibu and CTS are not enough...oh, and lemko's unique vehicles...
If all of GM's cars were like lemko's, there would not be a Honda and Toyota, but lemko is unique, because too many others have been driven away forever...when I think about how stupid generations of UAW sheeple have been, between poor quality and striking to maintain that poor quality, it is a wonder GM lasted this long...
Anybody seen that? It was 80s Michael Keaton feature, before he became famous with Bettlejuice and Batman. He convinces Asian Motors to come and take over dying car factory in his town.
Some of my favorite parts were "Let the dealer worry about it" or when the workers figure that they get 3/4 raise if the make 13,000 cars, not 15,000. The Japanese standards were sooo outside of their comprehension, yet they were still absolutely convinced about their superiority even when presented with evidence to contrary.
Just like UAW-apologists with their "skilled labor" myth, who can't even comprehend that somewhere overseas people may have better education, better skills and better work ethic and attitude that would allow them to build better product. It is America, we have it written in the Constitution that we are superior. Always been, always will be - no effort, no real work required - just mere feeling of superiority will suffice. We invented wheel, gun powder, printing press, and car, even President said so (hint: America DID NOT invent car - it DID invent mass-production).
This work is not the same as assembling parts on a Civic in W. Liberty, Ohio. It's more like hand shaping the metal and parts as they're being assembled to build a specialty car--maybe like the earlier Jaguar in Britain (were they hand assembled?).
It sounds to me like we have a similar situation with GM and the UAW as Conn had with the UAW. It looked to me from the article that the company was asking for a large cut in pay and benefits. The UAW said NO WAY. They went on strike and about 100 of the workers crossed the picket line to keep a job. If there was work rules involved pertaining to automation, I don't think the article mentions that. It was slightly biased toward the UAW workers that had been collecting $200 per week for 3 years on strike. To me the bottom line is this: is the company able to compete with foreign instrument makers with the higher UAW pay? With Trumpets ranging from $150 to $5000 or more automation may be required to compete. The UAW act like no Union has every taken a cut before. We took a $400 per week cut in 1985 when things were slow. They also laid off half the crew including the bosses Son. So things can get tough from time to time. I just wonder how long the UAW will continue to pay that kind of strike pay? That is close to $1.5 million per year.
It is simple...the UAW never worried about quality, they just wanted to sell us their junk and have the gov't either put up a protectionist barrier to keep Honda and Toyota out, or raise tariffs to do the same thing...
Correct. It's pretty clear what the UAW stands for:
- High worker salaries - Protect all workers, even the incompetent - Put up trade barriers
It's also clear what the UAW is NOT for: - Competition - Making the best vehicles - Helping their parent companies - Anybody but themselves
The UAW has done more to destroy American jobs in this industry than anybody. Autoworkers to Mexico and other continents, dealers shutting down.
people here laugh at kia & suzuki cars or look down upon people who drive them as if they are poor or stupid i.e.(I live in detroit metro area). I look at people who drive ford, gm & chrysler in exactly the same way(i drive a honda). While kia & suzuki climb the mountain they should high five gm & chrysler as they tumble down the mountain. their misfortune is my fortune. I kick em outta their house & manage their forclosed property and business is booming. unions are so prevalent here and it disgusts me. 8-5 day 4 them consists of the following 8-9 safety meeting 10-12 actual work 12 -1 lunch 1 -2 union meeting & get ready to work 2-4 actually work 4-5 roll it up get ready to leave. lazy people love unions. actual work 4 hrs. in 8 hr. day. and thats a good day! to much bureacracy uaw is a joke. and so are the pu55y companies that bow down and accept it.
i make 15.69 a hr on my 35 hr a week supplier job with no retiree health care or pension...i wouldnt expect one and i highly doubt i could give one if ran a business...biotechnology is great, now if they could bring there prices down so us schmucks can afford it...i am on generic effexor and my wife is on tricor and if we didnt have our overpriced insurance (for me and my company) it would cost us $260 a month for the 2 up our [non-permissible content removed] prescriptions...i know we have to be efficient but it is not a even playing field when other countries back their industries, esp, in asia...IN CHINA ANY CAR SOLD THERE HAS TO BE ASSEMBLED THERE...good for them, we should do same thing if any chinese company wants to sell cars here...we bought 700k korean cars in 2007, they bought 7k, how is that fair?...korea protects their industries, we cant compete with that...i am no fan of uaw but if they can build a decent car i will buy one...i have bought 5 new uaw products over the years...our entertainment just exports filth to other countries but granted we are good at it...my wife is from phillippines and i heard better music over there than i do here on a regular basis, they just have no media exposure...it just really irks me that since 1945 when we were a real superpower we have gone down so much and i blame peoples selfishness as much as anything..in WW2 america stood together now all we care about is #1
You really need to get a eye exam if you think that "plasticky" Ford is a better truck!!! :confuse: Ford, will be living on tax payer money in due time if the economy doesn't turn around. They sold Volvo, Land Rover, Aston Martin, thus they had a few bucks to live on before they crash too. The GMT-900 is this generation of fullsize Trucks and SUV's from GM.
What part of they were breaking the law is so hard to understand?
What part of "I don't care" what the law says as if laws weren't meant to be broken when "just cause" like safety issues aren't being addressed. Why do you think we have "Whistle Blower" laws to protect federal employees today because some of that was started from the PATCO strike. Ronnie, took the path of least resistence and kept his hand in the sand and paid back the unions for not supporting his treasonist butt during the elections!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: It's funny how the law only apply's to union workers but executives, politicans, and the ubber wealthy can break it on a daily basis and I don't hear you whine! :sick:
we bought 700k korean cars in 2007, they bought 7k, how is that fair?
Forget about fair! This is competition! If we can't make decent cars in this country our auto industry will be FINISHED! And the policies of the D3 and the UAW have been DESTROYING our auto industry:
1 - D3 have no flexibility, can't automate enough 2 - D3 have to spend money on high priced labor rather than quality content 3 - D3 have UAW strikes the minute something is successful (American Axle last year)
If you want "more blue collar jobs" you need to be COST COMPETITIVE! Pick money or pick more jobs, it is not going to be both! Which one is it going to be? The UAW can kick and scream but it is not going to change anything! The golden goose is almost dead! Chrysler goes onto life support in <30 days and GM in <60 days.
I don't know, but when both Karl Malone and John Stockton retired and were gone from the NBA I wanted to pop open a bottle of champagne. Malone and his stupid little mantra when he shot free throws, he took about 5 minutes before his first shot would go up. And with Karl Malone, he usually didn't get fouled by anyone. He used one of those massive arms to clear an open path to the hoop, or to get the defender just a bit away from him so he could have an open shot. To me that's not talent, that's thugability in the 1st degree. Michael Jordan did it, too, they had what we call in the NBA "respect from the ref's", so they can get away with murder if they want. Glad they're all long gone, and what's nice, I don't have to see them as NBA analysts on TV, either, at tall! Whoo-hoo!
You are just mad because "The Mailman" delivered and your Supersonics couldn't do a damn thing to stop the best basketball player in the league.
I mean, who is that cable news lady, Greta Van Susteren, who just paid a visit to a GM plant making Buick Rendezvous. There ya go, GM is still trying to cash in on a dying breed, a large SUV! Sure, these people are proud of their SUV, it rides like a champ, I'm pretty sure one would like their Buick SUV. But what's new about it? It will cost you too much, just for starters.
The Rendezvous is made in Mexico, thus I'm not sure you and I were watching the same video? :confuse:
So rock, no, you weren't the inspiration for our 9 y/o Pom's name.
I appreciate you telling me your story so our fellow edmunds members don't think this Michigander, is blowing smoke just because he is pro-union. :shades:
There is SOME truth in what you say! But why is the US recognized as having the best post-high school educational system in the world? People come from all over the world to get a US college education
According to who??? US??? Just because someone from Bangledesh, like other poor countries come to the U.S. for some college doesn't make us the best. I agree in some fields we are indeed the best but just not in all fields. I personally like the German education system the best because they focus there people on the skills they need and not the other B.S. just so colleges can fill classrooms and make a extra buck for non-sense. :mad:
Rocky, if you changed your attitude and focused on night college you would do well. You have the determination if you want to.
I have been considering it. I'm trying to figure out if I were to make such a move what to go into that won't be outsourced or one of Barry's H-1 Visa people that will come and take my job away from me. I am not a book worm and hate studing useless stuff. My patience is short on the B.S.
In 5 years we could be reading about you forming your own manufacturing company!
What would I do once my competition goes to China??? Ask for a bailout??? :sick:
I think I have finally figured you out. You are upset because UAW workers make more than you do in your current job and have better benefits than you thus instead of being upset with your employer who is screwing you over and you feel there is nothing I can do well instead let's take my hate and anger out on those who I feel are at my skill level that make more than me?? I think if I'm not "red hot" with that assumption well I'm at least luke warm.
me...I missed so many posts I cannot respond to rocky's ripping me a new one...
AWWW!!! I felt guilty just for a sec. :P
I just remember a few points...I rip the UAW because of the absolute junk they have sold to us over the decades, and it is their poor quality that has driven buyers into the imports...I BOUGHT Big 3 products because I believe it was the right think to do...
I'm having a very hard time buying that statement marsha7. Your personality as in words doesn't match the above. :confuse:
I sat down long and hard in 1998 when my 10 year old Legend was nearing its end...should I buy another Honda, being a delightfully satisfied customer, or should I keep my money here with the Big 3???
While I can, and will, always justify why the American buyer has deserted the Big 3, and with very good reason (poor quality, pure and simple), I still believed that I should keep my money here...no hypocrisy here, however, and it was personal belief that I should keep my money here, I just do not feel right telling someone else to do the same, I can only say to buy what you think is best...
Again I'm having a tough time buying that. Why would fight so strong on one thing and do another. You have made it quite clear you are a Mises loving free-marketeer and those types are globalist not nationalistic. You can't be both can ya??? :confuse:
Truly, I do not believe my Ford and Dodge are made as well as my Hondas were, but I wanted to keep my money here...what I do for myself is my business, but I cannot tell another to keep their money here if they believe that the import is the better car and the car they want...
I agree but the import buyers try to justify why they purchased there beloved import with slamming the UAW and Big 3. They can't just say they liked it better.
Deep, DEEP inside, I bought Big 3 because I WANT them to win...I wanted to see if all the hype about improvement was real or simple advertising...these 2004 models are better than my 82 and 83 Fords, but I am saddened that after 20 years, they have yet to close the gap with Japanese quality...I had hoped for SUPERIOR quality, simply hoping that we (think UAW) had learned some kind of a lesson about quality control...they have learned SOME, but, in my mind, there really should be NO REASON why our cars are not better than theirs...
What are you talking about??? I ask you to drive a new Malibu/Aura, Lucerne, MKS, Taurus, DTS, Sierra/Silverado, F-150, Mazda6, CTS, G6, etc, etc, Marsha7. Seriously do yourself a favor and go drive a new CTS, Malibu, Lucerne, MKS next week. Please!!!!
We should be able to embarrass the Japanese with our quality, but we fail to do so...for that I blame the UAW for shoddy workmanship, always...they do not design the car, but they put it together, so when rattles and squeaks show up, I blame the folks who built it...
That is a engineering flaw. How in the hell can a car rattle be a UAW workers fault??? Please explain that one to me!!!!! Do you have any idea how a car is assembled???? Most of the parts come from non-union shops like Johnson Controls and if your dash or instrument cluster squeaks you can blame them and the engineering department. I worked in the field. The UAW worker only puts on the the parts which are fully assembled modules. I encourage you to go to your local Kia plant and watch how those cars are built so you can grasp what I'm taking about!!!!
rocky, you are incapable of seeing the fault with the UAW, your only diversionary argument is to ask how someone could buy a house if he isn't paid enough...that misses the point...you have NEVER understood the point concerning how quality has dropped like a rock literally "forcing" people to seek out a better product...and they found one (2?) in Honda and Toyota...
The UAW simply did not, and I question whether it now does, care...they believe they have a divine right to a job, regardless of the quality they build...they are ignorant in terms of why they lost market share and their jobs...they blame currency manipulation, not enough tariffs, yada, yada, yada...the UAW sounds like you (no surprise, there) in that nothing is ever THEIR fault, always someone else's...
That is complete hawg wash. I said the UAW is to take some blame for what is going on but I'm not going to give them the majority of the blame like you. I choose to look at the big picture while you like to only look at what you want to see and believe. That is your problem, not mine!!!!
They simply do not know they made junk, and that junk had a LASTING impression on millions of Americans...to say to try the new cars sounds good, but, like the boy who cried wolf, and after being burned by rotten cars for years and years, Americans are justifiably suspicious of Big 3 claims of better cars...the claim falls on deaf American ears because too many buyers were burned too many times...how many Big 3 COTY turned out to be junk???
How many imports turned out to be complete junk??? Ask those import owners with the sludge problems and tranny problems just how well Honyota has taken care of them????
What you cannot comprehend with your union mentality is that, simply, the American people, to a great extent, do not trust the Big 3 and the UAW anymore...you have violated our trust over the decades, but you stick your head in the sand...when we no longer trust you, we will no longer buy your product...and we don't trust you, as you are NOT trustworthy...
I think you are seeing that a lot more people are trusting the Big 3 today than the Japanese, because we are backing our products with warranties that the Japanese, haven't matched!!! If the Japanese, are so confident that there cars are so much better well why haven't they stepped up to the plate with a superior powertrain warranty??? :P
You said that GM was still the biggest carmaker...and that means, what???...the biggest carmaker, selling the most cars, is 100 billion in debt and is, simply, bankrupt...so what does the biggest mean now???...simple...they will make the biggest splash when they crash into the water, no more, no less...
GM, is too big to fail. If they do you better be prepared for another great depression.
You seem incapable of seeing the obvious...Americans deserted them because, unlike me, they went away but did NOT come back, and, to this day, YOU cannot explain why because you cannot see the junk you and your family manufactured for years...
Your hate and anger will not allow you too see reality. Again if they were so damn bad then why in the hell did you buy them??? :confuse: My family made the best parts to cars they could. Why else would other manufacturers want to buy parts from GM or Delphi??? My step-dads plant makes car parts for VW, Toyota, GM.
When the quality returns, across the entire line, and they remain top notch for 5-10 years, you may win back the market that deserted you...one or two good years of Malibu and CTS proves nothing, as it could simply be a fluke...
We are headed in the right direction and have been for awhile now. I can't help it you have your blinders on. We made some crap cars in the 1980's I'll admit but so did the Japanese, you love to worship. They weren't all superior. They created a great marketing strategy and purchased the media outlets to boast about just how good they were and kept the public deceived for years by hiding there recalls. Maybe someday you will go drive a new domestic car and realize your thought process is 30 years old. :sick:
There is NO REASON that we shouldn't be able to make the world's best cars.
We have already and will continue too. The CTS is the best ELLPS ever made. The MKS, 2010 LaCrosse, Corvette, Malibu, just to name a couple can be argued as the best in there respective classes.
What a really sad story!!!! It just makes me absolutely sick!!!! :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:
I think it should be illegal for pernament replacement workers in this country aka "scabs" to take another mans job and in some states the bodies of such sewer trash come up missing. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Still have not heard anything yet pal. I will call them Monday afternoon to see if they made a decision. I have a few irons in the pot so hopefully something works out this next week.
If it was a 40% reduction in your pay which would of been about $12 bucks an hour for those guys it would of destroyed there life. I have nothing but respect for them. I highly doubt your teamster union ever took a 40% cut on anything thus you can sit there on your high horse and tell all of us what other people should do as you collect your fat pension check each month. :mad:
I probably would serve some time if anyone crossed my picket line :mad:
Do you really think if GM, would of saved money on concessions that they would of put those dollars into engineering??? Do you really think Roger Smith, would of done that??? Go read about the man and get back to me with your reply.
Hey I know who this post was directed at. Whydon't you just come out and say "Hey Rocky:"??? :confuse:
Can we abolish Liars with there entitlement mentality while we are at it that rip their clients off at $150-$300 a hr. pop with no recourse even if they look at a page for 30 seconds while guzzling down a Lone Star? I think all would agree that Liars have done more damage to this country than the UAW thus don't give me that hawg wash about destroying this country and the need to breed out those genes :mad:
"They actually think it's acceptable to vandlize somebody's property (as Rocky repeteadly and proudly told us his union friend would do)"
It is not only acceptable, to them it is a badge of honor...UAW had never wanted to earn your business, they believe the law should mandate it...fortunately, it does not...rather than fight to make the best product, they just fight to keep the jobs of people who make products that no one wants to buy...allow me to correct that...products that not enough people want to buy in order to keep them afloat...
I think certain things are worth fighting for. Messing with a mans family, job, country are all worth fighting for. If you don't agree I'm sorry. A UAW member wants to "earn" every customer fair and square. The problem is the "fair" part has never been addressed. :sick:
Think about what you are saying. Do you want us to be less efficient? Is that any way to be the best? OK, if you want us to be more efficient and yet have more blue collar workers, then you need to sell more. And to sell more the products need to be competitive for other countries, too. Why would anybody in Japan buy a big American left-hand drive SUV that rattles like a poisonous snake? Why doesn't the UAW start being worth their high expense by striking for quality cars rather than for more to line their own pockets?
There are so many trade barriers that the Asian countries have in place they can't buy them even if they wanted too. We can't be competitive with 2nd and 3rd world countries when some are living in grass huts and eating rattling snakes!!! There is a huge difference in standards of living. Unless you want this country to flush it's standard of living down the toilet and the majority of people move into small wooden shacks and drink there toilet and bath water we will never be competitive. If you can't see the writing on the wall we are headed to a serf n' elite society. is that what you want??? People making $7-10 bucks an hour doing manufacturing jobs will not be able to keep the wheels turning in this country. 25% of our jobs are manufacturing. If we lose that "base" this country is SOL tlong. :sick:
A $400 a week cut for you guys was like pocket change. It appeared you more than made up for it later based on how much money you were making. The UAW which has been repeated here many times has made billions of dollars of concessions. There is a huge difference going from $30 an hour to $22 an hour as $22 an hour is still a decent wage than going from lower middle class at $20 an/hr. to $12 an hour which is poverty. Kiss the house, car, good-bye!!! :sick:
So your answer is just cave in and work for poverty wages. That is going to solve everything right??? If I get another job selling cars who's going to buy them??? Most of my clients work in manufacturing and if people aren't buying there stuff they get laid-off and they don't come see me to buy a car. I'm screwed and my dealership closes. That is the ripple effect I've been trying to get through some peoples thick skulls. 25% of people work in manufacturing. If there salaries are slashed it will affect all careers as things will have to adjust "correct" and I don't think car prices will be able to come down quick enough to meet those corrections anytime soon. Hell Detroit is really the only super terrible market in Michigan. Sure home sales are very slow here but they aren't giving them away yet. If our industry collapses here in Western Michigan, we will be next to face the same problems as Detroit. The only upside is the wealthy will have to hire private security which might give me employment. I personally would rather not see that day become a reality. :sick:
Comments
The looming threat of deeper cuts and bankruptcy also suggests a tough course for the UAW, which refused a previous offer on its retiree health care trusts from GM and Chrysler and has pressed for the bondholders to make some sacrifice. The $30.6 billion due from the two automakers to their UAW health care trusts have the same standing in bankruptcy as unsecured bonds -- meaning a judge could reduce them.
http://www.freep.com/article/20090411/BUSINESS01/904110377/1002/BUSINESS/Chrysle- - r+debt+plan+still+vague
This actually makes me less likely to buy anything from them - I would rather give my business to people just anywhere else - simply because they know what it's their honor to sell me their product, not mine to buy theirs.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It is not only acceptable, to them it is a badge of honor...UAW had never wanted to earn your business, they believe the law should mandate it...fortunately, it does not...rather than fight to make the best product, they just fight to keep the jobs of people who make products that no one wants to buy...allow me to correct that...products that not enough people want to buy in order to keep them afloat...
There is no question that GM and Ford still sell cars, and quite a few of them...but they allowed their cost structure to become unmanageable and now their breakeven point is so high that even a "good" year of sales is not sufficient...as gagrice said, even in the last 5 years of record sales, GM lost money...if your best years cannot yield a profit, how soon before a bankruptcy becomes mandated by common sense???
Plus, as stated earlier, their entire business model of auto production is no longer viable, altho it was perfect until the 80s or so...due to UAW work restrictions, they need 3X the workers to make an equal number of cars as Toyota or Honda...simply put, that inflates their labor cost per vehicle far too much...
The solution is to dump 2/3 of the present work force and alter mode of production to the more effective method of Honda and Toyota...the UAW model is beyond obsolete...its only prupose is to "create" jobs out of thin air, but there is no money in that thin air to pay them...
I do not remember the year this occurred, but at one point there used to be a janitor for every six workers on machines...their job was to sweep up the messes made by the machinists (why the machinists could not sweep their own mess is another UAW featherbedding story, but this gets worse)...so, it was 1 janitor per 6 workers...then, by magic (a new UAW contract) it became 1 Janitor per 3 workers...overnight, the janitor payroll doubled...mind you, there was no trouble for 1 janitor to keep up with a mere 6 workers, but now it was 1 for 3...that meant the average janitor probably put in 1-2 hours of work daily instead of 2-4 hours (in an 8 hour day)...
Wonder why GM is not worth saving???...because if a true management expert walked in and critiqued the average plant, they could probably cut the work force by 80% and still make the cars, assuming that UAW work restrictions were removed and the method of production was modernized...all the UAW ever did was e-x-p-a-n-d the payroll over the years, raising overhead thru the roof, ultimately expanding legacy costs...if the modern method was in place 30 years ago, I would bet that with fewer workers, thereby fewer workers retiring, their legacy costs would be cut by more than half, because, if Honda's method was used, they only need 1/3 the workers to make their cars...if GM did this, legacy costs would have been for 1/3 the number of people they hired...
The UAW has poisoned manufacturing...it is time for the antidote...Chapter 11 is coming, the sooner the better...
Yes, it's all connected. Just like the end game. The UAW is showing it's greed which is how it's supposed to be.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Think about what you are saying. Do you want us to be less efficient? Is that any way to be the best? OK, if you want us to be more efficient and yet have more blue collar workers, then you need to sell more. And to sell more the products need to be competitive for other countries, too. Why would anybody in Japan buy a big American left-hand drive SUV that rattles like a poisonous snake? Why doesn't the UAW start being worth their high expense by striking for quality cars rather than for more to line their own pockets?
If you want more blue collar workers then $35/hr floor sweeping is NOT going to do it.
as far as excellence goes in US, the only thing we are great at now is being biggest debtor nation in history
Agree this is a risk. But we are excellent in biotechnology, computer software, entertainment industries.
Beg to differ on the 1st transistor radio... the 1st commercially-available production model transistor radio was manufactured in the USA by Regency in Indianapolis, IN in October 1954. The model was the TR-1. Similar models quickly appeared on the market from TI (Texas Instruments), Raytheon, and Zenith.
Sony is often attributed for marketing the 1st transistor radio in the United States, but it's not factual.
The actual thought of COMPETING by making a better car was, and is, the furthest thing from their simplistic sheeple minds...all they think is that their jobs should be protected regardless of what they make or that no one wants to buy it...
The UAW should join the Roman Empire in the dustbin of history, and, without the UAW to tell them how to think and how to act, maybe the workers' minds can be salvaged and they can learn the concept of craftsmanship, altho I severely doubt it, as they have been fed the UAW sheeple mentality for half a century, and it takes time to evolve defective DNA out of the gene pool...
To this day they still think their cars of the 70s and 80s were masterpieces, but they were the sowing the seeds of today's downfall...they cruised thru the 90s but the roots were getting stronger, as they went deeper and deeper into the quicksand...now it is too late, and making 2 good cars like Malibu and CTS are not enough...oh, and lemko's unique vehicles...
If all of GM's cars were like lemko's, there would not be a Honda and Toyota, but lemko is unique, because too many others have been driven away forever...when I think about how stupid generations of UAW sheeple have been, between poor quality and striking to maintain that poor quality, it is a wonder GM lasted this long...
Some of my favorite parts were "Let the dealer worry about it" or when the workers figure that they get 3/4 raise if the make 13,000 cars, not 15,000. The Japanese standards were sooo outside of their comprehension, yet they were still absolutely convinced about their superiority even when presented with evidence to contrary.
Just like UAW-apologists with their "skilled labor" myth, who can't even comprehend that somewhere overseas people may have better education, better skills and better work ethic and attitude that would allow them to build better product. It is America, we have it written in the Constitution that we are superior. Always been, always will be - no effort, no real work required - just mere feeling of superiority will suffice. We invented wheel, gun powder, printing press, and car, even President said so (hint: America DID NOT invent car - it DID invent mass-production).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It sounds to me like we have a similar situation with GM and the UAW as Conn had with the UAW. It looked to me from the article that the company was asking for a large cut in pay and benefits. The UAW said NO WAY. They went on strike and about 100 of the workers crossed the picket line to keep a job. If there was work rules involved pertaining to automation, I don't think the article mentions that. It was slightly biased toward the UAW workers that had been collecting $200 per week for 3 years on strike. To me the bottom line is this: is the company able to compete with foreign instrument makers with the higher UAW pay? With Trumpets ranging from $150 to $5000 or more automation may be required to compete. The UAW act like no Union has every taken a cut before. We took a $400 per week cut in 1985 when things were slow. They also laid off half the crew including the bosses Son. So things can get tough from time to time. I just wonder how long the UAW will continue to pay that kind of strike pay? That is close to $1.5 million per year.
Correct. It's pretty clear what the UAW stands for:
- High worker salaries
- Protect all workers, even the incompetent
- Put up trade barriers
It's also clear what the UAW is NOT for:
- Competition
- Making the best vehicles
- Helping their parent companies
- Anybody but themselves
The UAW has done more to destroy American jobs in this industry than anybody. Autoworkers to Mexico and other continents, dealers shutting down.
You really need to get a eye exam if you think that "plasticky" Ford is a better truck!!! :confuse: Ford, will be living on tax payer money in due time if the economy doesn't turn around. They sold Volvo, Land Rover, Aston Martin, thus they had a few bucks to live on before they crash too. The GMT-900 is this generation of fullsize Trucks and SUV's from GM.
-Rocky
What part of "I don't care" what the law says as if laws weren't meant to be broken when "just cause" like safety issues aren't being addressed. Why do you think we have "Whistle Blower" laws to protect federal employees today because some of that was started from the PATCO strike. Ronnie, took the path of least resistence and kept his hand in the sand and paid back the unions for not supporting his treasonist butt during the elections!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: It's funny how the law only apply's to union workers but executives, politicans, and the ubber wealthy can break it on a daily basis and I don't hear you whine! :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
Forget about fair! This is competition! If we can't make decent cars in this country our auto industry will be FINISHED! And the policies of the D3 and the UAW have been DESTROYING our auto industry:
1 - D3 have no flexibility, can't automate enough
2 - D3 have to spend money on high priced labor rather than quality content
3 - D3 have UAW strikes the minute something is successful (American Axle last year)
If you want "more blue collar jobs" you need to be COST COMPETITIVE! Pick money or pick more jobs, it is not going to be both! Which one is it going to be? The UAW can kick and scream but it is not going to change anything! The golden goose is almost dead! Chrysler goes onto life support in <30 days and GM in <60 days.
Even if the GM truck were better, I'd rather drive a D3 truck from a non-bankrupt company! :P
Hi Rocky - how is the search going? Still wishing you luck...
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Joe Dirt, never owned a slant-six Trans-AM. Remember he had the Hemi.
-Rocky
You are just mad because "The Mailman" delivered and your Supersonics couldn't do a damn thing to stop the best basketball player in the league.
I mean, who is that cable news lady, Greta Van Susteren, who just paid a visit to a GM plant making Buick Rendezvous. There ya go, GM is still trying to cash in on a dying breed, a large SUV! Sure, these people are proud of their SUV, it rides like a champ, I'm pretty sure one would like their Buick SUV. But what's new about it? It will cost you too much, just for starters.
The Rendezvous is made in Mexico, thus I'm not sure you and I were watching the same video? :confuse:
So rock, no, you weren't the inspiration for our 9 y/o Pom's name.
Darn!!! :P
-Rocky
-Rocky
I appreciate you telling me your story so our fellow edmunds members don't think this Michigander, is blowing smoke just because he is pro-union.
-Rocky
According to who??? US??? Just because someone from Bangledesh, like other poor countries come to the U.S. for some college doesn't make us the best. I agree in some fields we are indeed the best but just not in all fields. I personally like the German education system the best because they focus there people on the skills they need and not the other B.S. just so colleges can fill classrooms and make a extra buck for non-sense. :mad:
Rocky, if you changed your attitude and focused on night college you would do well. You have the determination if you want to.
I have been considering it. I'm trying to figure out if I were to make such a move what to go into that won't be outsourced or one of Barry's H-1 Visa people that will come and take my job away from me. I am not a book worm and hate studing useless stuff. My patience is short on the B.S.
In 5 years we could be reading about you forming your own manufacturing company!
What would I do once my competition goes to China??? Ask for a bailout??? :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
AWWW!!! I felt guilty just for a sec. :P
I just remember a few points...I rip the UAW because of the absolute junk they have sold to us over the decades, and it is their poor quality that has driven buyers into the imports...I BOUGHT Big 3 products because I believe it was the right think to do...
I'm having a very hard time buying that statement marsha7. Your personality as in words doesn't match the above. :confuse:
I sat down long and hard in 1998 when my 10 year old Legend was nearing its end...should I buy another Honda, being a delightfully satisfied customer, or should I keep my money here with the Big 3???
While I can, and will, always justify why the American buyer has deserted the Big 3, and with very good reason (poor quality, pure and simple), I still believed that I should keep my money here...no hypocrisy here, however, and it was personal belief that I should keep my money here, I just do not feel right telling someone else to do the same, I can only say to buy what you think is best...
Again I'm having a tough time buying that. Why would fight so strong on one thing and do another. You have made it quite clear you are a Mises loving free-marketeer and those types are globalist not nationalistic. You can't be both can ya??? :confuse:
Truly, I do not believe my Ford and Dodge are made as well as my Hondas were, but I wanted to keep my money here...what I do for myself is my business, but I cannot tell another to keep their money here if they believe that the import is the better car and the car they want...
I agree but the import buyers try to justify why they purchased there beloved import with slamming the UAW and Big 3. They can't just say they liked it better.
Deep, DEEP inside, I bought Big 3 because I WANT them to win...I wanted to see if all the hype about improvement was real or simple advertising...these 2004 models are better than my 82 and 83 Fords, but I am saddened that after 20 years, they have yet to close the gap with Japanese quality...I had hoped for SUPERIOR quality, simply hoping that we (think UAW) had learned some kind of a lesson about quality control...they have learned SOME, but, in my mind, there really should be NO REASON why our cars are not better than theirs...
What are you talking about??? I ask you to drive a new Malibu/Aura, Lucerne, MKS, Taurus, DTS, Sierra/Silverado, F-150, Mazda6, CTS, G6, etc, etc, Marsha7.
Seriously do yourself a favor and go drive a new CTS, Malibu, Lucerne, MKS next week. Please!!!!
We should be able to embarrass the Japanese with our quality, but we fail to do so...for that I blame the UAW for shoddy workmanship, always...they do not design the car, but they put it together, so when rattles and squeaks show up, I blame the folks who built it...
That is a engineering flaw. How in the hell can a car rattle be a UAW workers fault??? Please explain that one to me!!!!! Do you have any idea how a car is assembled???? Most of the parts come from non-union shops like Johnson Controls and if your dash or instrument cluster squeaks you can blame them and the engineering department. I worked in the field. The UAW worker only puts on the the parts which are fully assembled modules. I encourage you to go to your local Kia plant and watch how those cars are built so you can grasp what I'm taking about!!!!
con't.......
Please Watch Marsha7!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYWhYfJR-SA
The UAW simply did not, and I question whether it now does, care...they believe they have a divine right to a job, regardless of the quality they build...they are ignorant in terms of why they lost market share and their jobs...they blame currency manipulation, not enough tariffs, yada, yada, yada...the UAW sounds like you (no surprise, there) in that nothing is ever THEIR fault, always someone else's...
That is complete hawg wash. I said the UAW is to take some blame for what is going on but I'm not going to give them the majority of the blame like you. I choose to look at the big picture while you like to only look at what you want to see and believe. That is your problem, not mine!!!!
They simply do not know they made junk, and that junk had a LASTING impression on millions of Americans...to say to try the new cars sounds good, but, like the boy who cried wolf, and after being burned by rotten cars for years and years, Americans are justifiably suspicious of Big 3 claims of better cars...the claim falls on deaf American ears because too many buyers were burned too many times...how many Big 3 COTY turned out to be junk???
How many imports turned out to be complete junk??? Ask those import owners with the sludge problems and tranny problems just how well Honyota has taken care of them????
What you cannot comprehend with your union mentality is that, simply, the American people, to a great extent, do not trust the Big 3 and the UAW anymore...you have violated our trust over the decades, but you stick your head in the sand...when we no longer trust you, we will no longer buy your product...and we don't trust you, as you are NOT trustworthy...
I think you are seeing that a lot more people are trusting the Big 3 today than the Japanese, because we are backing our products with warranties that the Japanese, haven't matched!!!
You said that GM was still the biggest carmaker...and that means, what???...the biggest carmaker, selling the most cars, is 100 billion in debt and is, simply, bankrupt...so what does the biggest mean now???...simple...they will make the biggest splash when they crash into the water, no more, no less...
GM, is too big to fail. If they do you better be prepared for another great depression.
You seem incapable of seeing the obvious...Americans deserted them because, unlike me, they went away but did NOT come back, and, to this day, YOU cannot explain why because you cannot see the junk you and your family manufactured for years...
Your hate and anger will not allow you too see reality. Again if they were so damn bad then why in the hell did you buy them??? :confuse: My family made the best parts to cars they could. Why else would other manufacturers want to buy parts from GM or Delphi??? My step-dads plant makes car parts for VW, Toyota, GM.
When the quality returns, across the entire line, and they remain top notch for 5-10 years, you may win back the market that deserted you...one or two good years of Malibu and CTS proves nothing, as it could simply be a fluke...
We are headed in the right direction and have been for awhile now. I can't help it you have your blinders on. We made some crap cars in the 1980's I'll admit but so did the Japanese, you love to worship. They weren't all superior. They created a great marketing strategy and purchased the media outlets to boast about just how good they were and kept the public deceived for years by hiding there recalls. Maybe someday you will go drive a new domestic car and realize your thought process is 30 years old. :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
We have already and will continue too. The CTS is the best ELLPS ever made. The MKS, 2010 LaCrosse, Corvette, Malibu, just to name a couple can be argued as the best in there respective classes.
-Rocky
I think it should be illegal for pernament replacement workers in this country aka "scabs" to take another mans job and in some states the bodies of such sewer trash come up missing. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
-Rocky
Still have not heard anything yet pal. I will call them Monday afternoon to see if they made a decision. I have a few irons in the pot so hopefully something works out this next week.
-Rocky
I probably would serve some time if anyone crossed my picket line :mad:
-Rocky
Nothing yet. When most jobs you apply for have several thousand applicants it can take a while. :sick: .....Thanks tlong!!!
-Rocky
P.S. I am afraid that is the truth buying a car from a BK automaker.
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Can we abolish Liars with there entitlement mentality while we are at it that rip their clients off at $150-$300 a hr. pop with no recourse even if they look at a page for 30 seconds while guzzling down a Lone Star? I think all would agree that Liars have done more damage to this country than the UAW thus don't give me that hawg wash about destroying this country and the need to breed out those genes :mad:
-Rocky
-Rocky
It is not only acceptable, to them it is a badge of honor...UAW had never wanted to earn your business, they believe the law should mandate it...fortunately, it does not...rather than fight to make the best product, they just fight to keep the jobs of people who make products that no one wants to buy...allow me to correct that...products that not enough people want to buy in order to keep them afloat...
I think certain things are worth fighting for. Messing with a mans family, job, country are all worth fighting for.
-Rocky
There are so many trade barriers that the Asian countries have in place they can't buy them even if they wanted too. We can't be competitive with 2nd and 3rd world countries when some are living in grass huts and eating rattling snakes!!! There is a huge difference in standards of living. Unless you want this country to flush it's standard of living down the toilet and the majority of people move into small wooden shacks and drink there toilet and bath water we will never be competitive. If you can't see the writing on the wall we are headed to a serf n' elite society. is that what you want??? People making $7-10 bucks an hour doing manufacturing jobs will not be able to keep the wheels turning in this country. 25% of our jobs are manufacturing. If we lose that "base" this country is SOL tlong. :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky