>"The Board at Ford, and even their previous CEO, were smarter than GM, so Ford has a really good chance. Let's hope the UAW isn't so stupid as to torpedo the last surviving/non bankruptcy US car maker. "
Very well said! And I agree.
But, consider the story of the Scorpion and the frog.
One day the Scorpion found a way to cross a creek on some freshly fallen limbs. It opened a whole new world of hunting for him. He did so, and after a successful day returned to the limbs to cross back over. He found the creek had swollen and become very turbulent. The limbs were gone. However, he spotted a frog about to cross.
He asked the frog for a ride. The frog said, "I don't think so, I know your reputation."
After the Scorpion did much begging and pleading and assuring that he would not sting, the frog reluctantly agreed to give him a ride.
When they entered the water the Scorpion started demanding that the frog swim faster and higher in the water. The frog was doing the best he could with the added weight, and the turbulent water. But that wasn't good enough. Half way across, the Scorpion used his stinger. The frog said, "That was stupid. Now we are both going to drown".
The Scorpion replied, "What did your really expect? I'm a Scorpion! Things don't go my way, I sting. That is my mentality." --------------------
We have been looking at adding an "ECONOMY" car to the stable. The Ford Focus is on the short list for several reasons.
1. It drives and rides as good or better than most others in consideration.
2. Ford appears to be serious about building a quality car.
3. Ford got serious about their company a long time before GM and Chrysler, and is standing on it's own feet without begging for welfare from the tax payers.
4. I think maybe they have earned and therefore deserve my support. Even though I haven't owned a Ford for many years.
My one MAIN concern is the UAW. As Ford struggles in this turbulent economy, will the UAW decide to STING just because they can? Just as they always have?
I too feel bad for anyone that loses their job, including Rocky. My family has been rocked by cut backs; my Father and two uncles lost their jobs.
That being said, much of the UAW can keep their jobs if they make concessions to the D3. You could argue that the UAW is quitting. Furthermore a buy out is a lot better than being put out on the street.
And Lemko, we know you only buy GM and classics. But as you have not driven a foreign make since 1980 and thought that the Corvette had its own steering wheel maybe you are not the best judge of UAW quality. :P
The stuff that GM built during the 80s wasn't bad - just boring. Nothing more than a bunch of forgettable, yawn-inducing appliances. Compare a Caddy from the 80s with one built 20 years earlier & you'll understand immediately.
In the 50s & 60s, GM knew how to build & market cars that got Americans excited. Then, at some point in the 70s, the company lost its mojo. You can tell by looking at just about any 1980s GM product that the accountants were running things by then. The car guys had gone elsewhere.
That's why I'm not as hard on the UAW as others here. You can't blame the guys on the line for dull, timid designs.
Are you kidding? Name one quality car made in the 80's by GM. They were notoriously unreliable. Remember the Cimarron :lemon: Everything they put out was relative garbage except for a few trucks. The '80s was the era of wildcat strikes and sabotage. UAW more than ever was looking at the Japanese and yelling "They took our jerbs!"
Funny you should say that. Back in the 1980s, my then-girlfriend had a drop-dead gorgeous white 1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. Between my 1989 Brougham and her car, I'd have taken her 1969 model hands down!
Millions more people will lose there jobs. It's that simple
I think it will be in the Billions at least. :P That is so over stated I cannot believe it. The only industry in this country that has lost millions is the housing. And the folks in DC have done NOTHING to improve that. Why bother with the piddly auto industry?
I would love nothing more than this country to rebuild it's industrial base. We should be making everything here in this country. Refrigerators, Washing Machines, TV's, should also be allowed to compete on a level playing field.
When we bought the first electronics from Japan in the 1950s we opened that flood gate. I just took 50+ years to roost in Michigan and now you complain.
You should not have to worry about competing with Sony, making TV's with Slave Labor for pennies on the dollar
You have praised the Japanese model for taking care of their people. Which is it going to be? Are they slaves or well cared for people. I consider anyone under a socialist system slaves.
Well what has killed the car companies is that each person buying an american car thinks they should get employee pricing + rebates and/or zero percent financing.
You got it wrong again my friend. In 2005 when all the other automakers were making money GM was struggling to get rid of the excess inventory they built. Why did they have excess inventory? Because they have excess workers to pay and huge legacy costs to pay. I know you would like to still have 1.5 million workers making cars in Detroit. Just does not work that way. Again the D3 are very late to the automation game. When I went to work for the Telephone company in 1961, it took over a year to install the equipment to service 10,000 customers. The last office I was involved with would handle 100,000 customers and took less than a month to install and turn up with two guys from the factory. The early telephone offices had dozens of installers and maintenance people. Not anymore. One guy in a remote location monitors several offices. Most of those union jobs are history. Just like the UAW jobs will go. It just did not hit close to you before.
Aren't these all the same car with different badging. I guess what you call quality the rest of the world calls fleet cars? Wasn't the Caprice Classic the cop car the Blues Brothers drove. :shades:
The Caprice Classic is GM's RWD "B" body configuration - 115" wheelbase The Park Avenue is GM's FWD "C" body configuration The Cadillac Brougham is a Cadillac-only "D" body configuration - 121" wheelbase
The Blues Brothers' car was a 1974 Dodge Monaco - "It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?"
I'm a big German car fan - I drive & love a BMW 330i - but I learned the hard way that you can't use the words "Audi" & "quality" in the same sentence. After my absolutely dreadful Audi experience, I wouldn't buy one with your money.
So do lemko a favor & suggest that he test-drive a 5-series BMW.
No SUVs or cross-overs! I wouldn't buy an Escalade or Enclave either!
PA must be doing a better job of filling the potholes in your area. Here in CA I am always swerving in the LS400 to avoid potholes. We waste our gas tax which is about the highest in the Nation on everything but the roads. I did just put a set of Michelin Primacy V94s on the Lexus. Means I have to keep it another 5 years. My wife had let a local tire company put no name tires on and one split right in the tread. When you get older you will appreciate the ease of getting in and out of an SUV. I hate that part of the LS400. And of course the lousy road clearance.
UAW members and retirees have enjoyed a much higher standard of living than the average American worker for at least 60 years. That makes it hard for them to accept reality. They are the last of the Mohicans so to speak. Factory work is no longer an upper middle class job. The UAW is just about 40 years behind the rest of the factory workers that have already lost their jobs or are making entry level wages. I cannot see how the US manufacturing can survive paying over $15 per hour. Too much competition. Has nothing to do with level playing fields. It is making the best product for the least amount of money.
If people refused to buy Chinese tools they would improve or go bust.
We aren't worried...We can take a pay cut and still live well here. Many of the guys live on far less than they make. Some just started some have been doing it for a while The COL is low in the South. We bank $800 a month...
The difference is we live well below our salary. We can easily live on $20 an hour. But at $30 With a $700 House Payment That leaves around $2000 a month AFTER we bank $800. It's not what you make that counts its how you live. We live are saving for our own retirement, not depending on Toyota or Social Security. No we don't buy cars using loans, We save and pay cash. We don't use credit cards except for convenience. We are our own bank,
I laugh when I read sob stories of UAW workers crying in their beer about not having any money saved up. Jeeze your pensioners make more than most people in the US!!! not including medical coverage.....We "get it" We don't need a union. We pride ourselves on personal responsibility..and many of us know we are overpaid.when compared to the rest of the workforce in the US.
>"The car reviews from J.D. Power, and import biased sources like [non-permissible content removed] Trend, Pol Pot and Track, Stalin and Driver, etc have given GM rave reviews."
Here is a review for ya!
My brother-in-law is a Saturn fan. He has a Vue and an Aura. Pretty sure he has had some more of them. He is also the type that can squeeze the last dime from the dealer on a trade. He just traded his 06 Vue on an 08 Vue "Red Line".
He had a few problems with the 06, but nothing to get terribly concerned about. Problem is the trade and resale value of them.
He purchased an 08 "GM Executive" car with 25K miles. It had never been titled. MSRP was $30K +/-. Purchase price was $18k +/-. In the first year, the car lost approx 40% of its value off of MSRP. Great deal for him. But what about the guy that purchased a brand new 08?
His 06 VUE "trade-in" was near $28K new in 06, and brought $11K trade which he thought was pretty generous since KBB said it was worth $8K-$11k. It was low mileage and looked like it just rolled off the show room. I would define it as excellent. Both cars are loaded.
By comparison, my wifes 03 CR-V with 45K miles looks new, no dings. It's MSRP new was $22K. It's "trade in Value", according to KBB, is $10,050 good, and $10,600 excellent. Perfect inside and out with new Michelin tires. I would define it as perfect also.
So a 6 year old $22K CR-V is worth the same as a 3 year old $28K Vue.
In 6 years the CR-V lost 51%. In 3 years the Vue lost 60%.
An 03 vue with the same equipment and mileage and condition as our 03 CR-V trades at $6800 good and $7200 excellent.
So much for JD Powers "initial quality" quality really meaning a lot. The true cost of ownership is more involved than most folks think.
To say that some vehicle is Motor Trend's vehicle of the year only involves driving impressions, of NEW or New model vehicles. For instance if the Yugo was the only "New" model vehicle in it's category, it could win by default. :sick:
In a nut shell, the poor quality of D3, UAW Built vehicles, is continuing catching up to them. Even those built in this century. Even though they just might be as good as the imports.
Wouldn't anyone rather buy a $25K Toyota Camry that will be worth $19K in three years then a $20k Malibu that will be worth $10K in three years? People don;t understand the cost to drive. Its not about initial PRICE. Its about the cost per month over the long run. Yeah the $20K car will cost less per month to PAY FOR but real dollars lost will be far more trade in time.
Between my 1989 Brougham and her car, I'd have taken her 1969 model hands down!
Most people would agree. The Cadillacs of the 60s were designed to inspire, but the 80s Cadillacs were designed not to offend. They were pathetic snoozemobiles with pleated upholstery.
Somewhere between her '69 & your '89, GM lost its way.
Way to be poignant and use a good example. Living within your means is a large part to financial success and I am willing to bet it is a large reason as to why the UAW won't bend. The older UAW members are so indebted that they cannot afford a cost of living reduction. Meanwhile they sap benefits from the new guys.
As for JD Power's initial quality survey, it is just for that INITIAL QUALITY. It does not take into account an owner's opinion on quality after the car is paid off in four years.
As for Satrurn, their resale value is going to take a huge hit when Saturn goes out of business. :lemon: Who would want to buy a Saturn right now in general.
I guess billing by the hour has put ME into the welfare entitlement mentality, as I forgot I was NOT being paid to post here at edmunds...:):):):):)
Anybody care to give me their address so I can send a bill?????
rocky: I often wonder, if there was a large tariff on imported cars, would that necessarily bring a rush of buyers back to the Big 3???...for those who have been burned over the years, and, like it or not, there are many, would they pay the extra price for the import rather than the "cheaper" Big 3 car???...I would gamble that if the buyer believed the quality was there, the imports would maintain their share of the market because the folks who have deserted the Big 3 need a VERY good reason to come back, and saving a few thousand, but getting a poorly made product, is no savings at all...that does not count in depreciation, which was documented above to be horrendous for American cars...
Depreciation is the objective measurement of quality, I guess...not in a scientific sense, but if your Big 3 car loses half its value in 2 years, and the import loses it over 5-6, then the market is speaking...that means that the market will pay more for the import because it will probably last longer, or else its value would simply not stay up that high...
You talk about lifestyles, people getting paid for doing nothing in the Jobs Bank, but you never discuss that the American people deserted the Big 3 because they no longer wanted to buy their cars...pure and simple...the American people believe that imports are better...why is that???...ya think maybe they bought enough UAW lemons that they are tired of them and want something reliable???...not everyone has left Detroit iron, but a sufficient dent has been made in their market share...all you talk about is the job of someone who probably never should have been hired in the bloated work force anyway, and all you think is that his job should be preserved no matter what...the answer to that is NO...the Big 3 had their day, and still sell LOTS of cars, but your union destroyed Big 3 loyalty by making too many years and models of junk, and we Americans rebelled against it...truthfully, you can't handle it, and you cannot face the fact that the UAW destroyed itself by destroying the market for Big 3 cars (except for lemko and his circle of friends)...
You just think that the UAW job should be preserved regardless of whether they are needed or not, and they have not been needed for about 20 years...that is false thinking...they need to make the product quality that we demand, and we seem to obtain from imports...and that is something you simply do not get, because you think GM is there to allow Detroiters to buy houses, when the jobs are a byproduct of quality cars...
When the quality comes back, and we KNOW it is not a one model flash in the pan, you will see the buyers back to Big 3 in droves...but you made your bed, and you are simply unwilling to acknowledge that you are now lying in it, having made it over the last 20-30 years...
The quality is back, like Malibu and CTS, but not enough and not long enough...folks say that we should not go back 15, 20, 30 years, but that is how long we have been burned by Big 3 quality..folks left you, some for good, and to this day all you can cry is currency manipulation, instead of knowing that the junk of many years has finally caught up with you, in triplicate...
So, if a guy burglarizes my house, it's OK. He just had to support his family? If a guy is dealing drugs on the corner and killing his fellow citizens with his dope, it's OK. He just had to support his family? If somebody puts a hit out on me and I'm brutally murdered, that's OK. The assassin just had to support his family?
Your examples are illegal acts. Is it illegal for somebody to take a job that is offered?
I don't understand why people have trouble distinguishing between legal and breaking the law. Perhaps that's part of our problem.
People making $7-10 bucks an hour doing manufacturing jobs will not be able to keep the wheels turning in this country. 25% of our jobs are manufacturing. If we lose that "base" this country is SOL...
It's been decades since manufacturing jobs were 25% of the Economy. Note that the UAW Big 3 jobs are only a portion of the 5% of U.S. jobs that are in manufacturing.
From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
9% Goods-producing 3% Construction 5% Manufacturing 47% Service-providing 6% Retail trade 7% Professional & business Svcs 8% Education and health 5% Leisure & hospitality 9% Government
Marha, I love your posts and agree 100% (but they are way to long). Tariffs have two problems. It creates inflation as foreign goods go up in price and retaliatory tariffs bight back twice as hard. We put a tariff on Japanese cars, then the Japanese put tariffs on US agriculture foods.
Also this was tried during the Great Depression with disastrous results: Frantic attempts to shore up the economies of individual nations through protectionist policies, such as the 1930 U.S. Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act and retaliatory tariffs in other countries, exacerbated the collapse in global trade. By late in 1930, a steady decline set in which reached bottom by March 1933. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression
And Rocky, please see a specialist to determine the affects of cheap GM interior fumes on your health. I'm worried about you. They took our Jerbs!
we are headed toward universal health care. Just figure about $5000 per family in new taxes each year to pay for it. When it comes, employers will shift the costs of insurance policies from themselves to their employees. Maybe they will give out little raises to compensate. Withholding taxes will jump by 100 a week.
This will allow GM to sever health care to nearly a million people. GM will then compete more equally with it's global competitors.
I'd rather have $5000 more taxes for the rest of my life than to stand by and let this bailout thing happen for GM where they get money they don't deserve. The $5000 more taxes a year for me to pay makes it a viable plan into the future.
Wait a minute. Couldn't I buy a new GM car every 4 years with the $5000 in taxes I will have to start paying? Wonder if that would be helpful to GM now instead of a many year plan to get universal health care.
Avoided: a gov't plan to manage health care for 320 million people. After all, we don't want them managing a 250 thousand person company.
Huh, did you just make these figures up or have some insiders at the White House. Don't you think universal health care is a little different than giving charity to a failing company. Wait, didn't you own a Astro Van? One of Detroit's worst cars that helped hastened GM's death. That is right you own an Astro Van? :shades:
Mon Apr 13, 12:45 am ET WASHINGTON, April 12 (Reuters ) – The U.S. Treasury Department is directing General Motors to lay the groundwork for a bankruptcy filing by June 1, even though the automaker has publicly stated it could reorganize outside of court, The New York Times reported on Sunday.
The new world order is a lot more than a conspiracy theory. You even have that slave to international banks and thought control who pretends to be the British PM using the term in speeches now. This ideal is regressive for 99% of the people in the western world.
However, in the end, the UAW will collapse no matter if old banking families and oligarchs seek global political influence or not, as the decisions of domestic automaker management are just too faulty. I have no sympathy for that union, but I do mourn the demise of western standards established in relatively recent history.
All I can say is I am glad I am alive now and not maybe in a couple centuries - I do not believe most will have it as good.
too bad your full of it. $25k camry worth 19 in 3 years? dream on. last time I checked, 2 yr old malibus were selling for more than I can get a new one for. dont talk gas guzzling suvs and then use malibu in your conclusion. The malibu will be worth 14 in 3 yrs, not 10. Besides, Why would I pay an extra 5k to take a chance that I could possibly lose ALL my money slower? The extra insurance and tax and interest would negate all the gains, even if it was possible.
By the time Ronnie came along, the road had already been cleared and was being paved. None of it was his decision to make. I have a hard time blaming him for any problems seen today, regarding unions or otherwise. Presidents themselves seldom have such influence, but sometimes they do have well-connected manipulators within reach to wreak havoc.
And if you buy one, do it used...those things have depreciation that is downright embarrassing even compared to the hated GM cars. Find a mint low mileage used one that's a few years old but still the new style, spend a few grand on an aftermarket warranty, and laugh at the over-monied fool who bought it new.
Dave, check your Blue book number or Edmund's Auto Apraiser. A 2007 Saturn Aura has lost close to $10,000 while the Camry has lost about $5,500. People just don't trust GM reliability. A 1999 Astro Van is worth about $3,000. :lemon:
Even though it is 40 years old, it is pretty amazing that a worker would actively try to sabotage their company's product. What happened to the American pride and work ethic?
There were some movie comedies made back in 60's in England, some with Terry Thomas, about how the unions were slowing down, fighting companies and their management. Perhaps the movie industry in US could make some comedies with placement here, rather than England, with former UAW workers serving as consultants at lawyers' fees/wages for the authenticity factor. Other possibilites for former UAW workers/leaders in years to come would be to go global as consultants and organize in other countries, such as China, Latin America, South America, etc. They could get UN backing to safely go into these countries. If Democrats still control Congress, then Pelosi/Reed would also support these efforts to bring up wages and working conditions globally.
"What happened to the American pride and work ethic?"...PLEASE boston this is a family oriented topic...you CANNOT place "work ethic" and "UAW" in the same sentence, paragraph or maybe even a 2 Terabyte hard drive...
I will try to stay shorter on posts...
About the tariffs...I was not advocating them, but, I believe rocky is, as I believe (I may be wrong) because I think it is how he sees the way to "level the playing field"...I think it is better to make the best car (which we sadly don't) and compete by having the superior product,,,being raised in the UAW mentality, quality was never an issue, just protecting the jobs of people who insisted (by their behavior) on making an inferior product, and hoping to use gov't control to cram it down our collective throats...
I had a 72 Pontiac Ventura that had a dashboard that was mounted cockeyed by 3 full inches...it was disgraceful...my father had a 76 Olds Omega (both knockoffs of the Nova) that rattled and groaned from Day One...they were junk that no one could be proud of (except the UAW which knew no other kind of workmanship, or lack of it)...
I bring that up simply because if it wasn't for the Japanese bringing us superior cars in the mid-80s (not the 70s, for they were junk, too), I would bet that GM cars would have either stayed the same or gooten even worse, as there was NO competition to compare them to...
Having been exposed to much junk and trash from our illustrious UAW, those Nova knockoffs would be state of the art today if not for the Japanese, and minimal tariffs...
Maybe this nation will be UAW-free by June 1 when the GM bankruptcy takes place...
Hey Marsha, I agreed with you 100%. I know you are against tariffs, but wanted to show some historic examples as to why protectionist tariffs are a horrible idea. Some people like Rocky just don't understand global economics. It is like all the people who are against immigration. They are so focused on protectionism that they don't see how controlled immigration could help the US. With housing prices so low and the national debt so high, immigration could help.
But people like Rocky and the UAW are afraid that "They took our jerbs!" Southerners are smarter than Michiganers. Michigan brain drain.
Housing prices so low? Low, or simply now realistic? Just because some idiots bought in to an artificially inflated market 2 or 3 years ago and are now upside down does not mean prices are now too low. IMO they still have a little ways to fall until they are realistic compared to incomes and sustainable debt.
Most who support immigration don't support controlled immigration. Look at modern Europe for proof. It's a weapon used by the globalists, cultural suicide for easier coercion into the new world order. The EU works for this, and so would a NAU.
Immigration is not an answer to anything right now.
The fate of BMC can be related to GM in some ways.
The Dems want to improve wages and working conditions overseas as much as the neocons - that is, in no way. Both sides are controlled by the same sinister force.
Houses in Detroit are going to for $100. Miami has a two year supply of vacant condos on the market. Yes the market has normalized, but supply is so high that controlled immigration would do a lot of good for some places. Like Michigan.
I checked this. New '09 camry LXE $28,893. Used '07 highest priced one is $20,900. That's $7k gone in 2 yrs and about 29k miles. Most 2 yr old used cars that are for sale have between 30,000 and 60,000 miles on them. Highest priced malubu is 17k. Add $7k and ask. Could a Malibu have stickered for at least 24k? If so, then depreciation was not any worse. Did any more pay full $24k sticker for the Malibu when new as paid full MSRP for the $29k Camry? No, they both got something off, which takes the sting out of the first $7k of depreciation that they both have seen. I see the Malibu fdealers take 2750 rebate off of invoice, knocking that first $7k of depreciation in 2 years down to about $3250. How does Toyota help out on the first $7k of depreciation?
DBoston, you say a used malibu is $10k after 2 years and then you need to know where I get my figures? I got them from you.
Immigration won't help those areas. Who wants to move to Detroit or Florida? Immigrants will go where the jobs are, and that isn't many places right now.
Those $100 Detroit houses are teardowns, and Florida is cursed because of "free market capitalist" property developers who in a fit of greed and hubris were blindly allowed to build more than the market could sustain, as if somehow the spurious lending practices and flipping mentality of 2004 would be able to last forever. The market might never recover in those areas, and no shame if it doesn't.
There is a time and a place for immigration...I just don't see it as solving problems now. It isn't helping anyone else who has embraced it lately.
I try to limit myself to car related subjects...but idle time is the devils playground :shades:
The auto industry designs cars to brake! The infrastucture to support this is what keeps the jobs to buy new ones! It was a well designed plan, too bad the goverment sold our country out. Any car sold today is capable of twice the mileage there getting now with no design changes!
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2018 430i Gran Coupe
Very well said! And I agree.
But, consider the story of the Scorpion and the frog.
One day the Scorpion found a way to cross a creek on some freshly fallen limbs.
It opened a whole new world of hunting for him. He did so, and after a successful day returned to the limbs to cross back over. He found the creek had swollen and become very turbulent. The limbs were gone. However, he spotted a frog about to cross.
He asked the frog for a ride. The frog said, "I don't think so, I know your reputation."
After the Scorpion did much begging and pleading and assuring that he would not sting, the frog reluctantly agreed to give him a ride.
When they entered the water the Scorpion started demanding that the frog swim faster and higher in the water. The frog was doing the best he could with the added weight, and the turbulent water. But that wasn't good enough. Half way across, the Scorpion used his stinger. The frog said, "That was stupid. Now we are both going to drown".
The Scorpion replied, "What did your really expect? I'm a Scorpion! Things don't go my way, I sting. That is my mentality."
--------------------
We have been looking at adding an "ECONOMY" car to the stable. The Ford Focus is on the short list for several reasons.
1. It drives and rides as good or better than most others in consideration.
2. Ford appears to be serious about building a quality car.
3. Ford got serious about their company a long time before GM and Chrysler, and is standing on it's own feet without begging for welfare from the tax payers.
4. I think maybe they have earned and therefore deserve my support. Even though I haven't owned a Ford for many years.
My one MAIN concern is the UAW. As Ford struggles in this turbulent economy, will the UAW decide to STING just because they can? Just as they always have?
Kip
My family has been rocked by cut backs; my Father and two uncles lost their jobs.
That being said, much of the UAW can keep their jobs if they make concessions to the D3. You could argue that the UAW is quitting. Furthermore a buy out is a lot better than being put out on the street.
And Lemko, we know you only buy GM and classics. But as you have not driven a foreign make since 1980 and thought that the Corvette had its own steering wheel maybe you are not the best judge of UAW quality. :P
They took our jerbs! :lemon:
In the 50s & 60s, GM knew how to build & market cars that got Americans excited. Then, at some point in the 70s, the company lost its mojo. You can tell by looking at just about any 1980s GM product that the accountants were running things by then. The car guys had gone elsewhere.
That's why I'm not as hard on the UAW as others here. You can't blame the guys on the line for dull, timid designs.
The '80s was the era of wildcat strikes and sabotage. UAW more than ever was looking at the Japanese and yelling "They took our jerbs!"
I'll name three!
1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic
1988 Buick Park Avenue
1989 Cadillac Brougham
Had all three and they were extremely good quality cars! :shades:
I think it will be in the Billions at least. :P That is so over stated I cannot believe it. The only industry in this country that has lost millions is the housing. And the folks in DC have done NOTHING to improve that. Why bother with the piddly auto industry?
I would love nothing more than this country to rebuild it's industrial base. We should be making everything here in this country. Refrigerators, Washing Machines, TV's, should also be allowed to compete on a level playing field.
When we bought the first electronics from Japan in the 1950s we opened that flood gate. I just took 50+ years to roost in Michigan and now you complain.
You should not have to worry about competing with Sony, making TV's with Slave Labor for pennies on the dollar
You have praised the Japanese model for taking care of their people. Which is it going to be? Are they slaves or well cared for people. I consider anyone under a socialist system slaves.
Well what has killed the car companies is that each person buying an american car thinks they should get employee pricing + rebates and/or zero percent financing.
You got it wrong again my friend. In 2005 when all the other automakers were making money GM was struggling to get rid of the excess inventory they built. Why did they have excess inventory? Because they have excess workers to pay and huge legacy costs to pay. I know you would like to still have 1.5 million workers making cars in Detroit. Just does not work that way. Again the D3 are very late to the automation game. When I went to work for the Telephone company in 1961, it took over a year to install the equipment to service 10,000 customers. The last office I was involved with would handle 100,000 customers and took less than a month to install and turn up with two guys from the factory. The early telephone offices had dozens of installers and maintenance people. Not anymore. One guy in a remote location monitors several offices. Most of those union jobs are history. Just like the UAW jobs will go. It just did not hit close to you before.
Test drive an Audi A6 lemko.
The Caprice Classic is GM's RWD "B" body configuration - 115" wheelbase
The Park Avenue is GM's FWD "C" body configuration
The Cadillac Brougham is a Cadillac-only "D" body configuration - 121" wheelbase
The Blues Brothers' car was a 1974 Dodge Monaco - "It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?"
The bigger A8 is more my style.
Find a dealer and spin one around. Just for fun.
I'm a big German car fan - I drive & love a BMW 330i - but I learned the hard way that you can't use the words "Audi" & "quality" in the same sentence. After my absolutely dreadful Audi experience, I wouldn't buy one with your money.
So do lemko a favor & suggest that he test-drive a 5-series BMW.
And they are MADE IN THE USA, or at least assembled from parts unknown.
PA must be doing a better job of filling the potholes in your area. Here in CA I am always swerving in the LS400 to avoid potholes. We waste our gas tax which is about the highest in the Nation on everything but the roads. I did just put a set of Michelin Primacy V94s on the Lexus. Means I have to keep it another 5 years. My wife had let a local tire company put no name tires on and one split right in the tread. When you get older you will appreciate the ease of getting in and out of an SUV. I hate that part of the LS400. And of course the lousy road clearance.
None of which is the fault of the UAW.
UAW members and retirees have enjoyed a much higher standard of living than the average American worker for at least 60 years. That makes it hard for them to accept reality. They are the last of the Mohicans so to speak. Factory work is no longer an upper middle class job. The UAW is just about 40 years behind the rest of the factory workers that have already lost their jobs or are making entry level wages. I cannot see how the US manufacturing can survive paying over $15 per hour. Too much competition. Has nothing to do with level playing fields. It is making the best product for the least amount of money.
If people refused to buy Chinese tools they would improve or go bust.
The difference is we live well below our salary. We can easily live on $20 an hour. But at $30 With a $700 House Payment That leaves around $2000 a month AFTER we bank $800. It's not what you make that counts its how you live. We live are saving for our own retirement, not depending on Toyota or Social Security. No we don't buy cars using loans, We save and pay cash. We don't use credit cards except for convenience. We are our own bank,
I laugh when I read sob stories of UAW workers crying in their beer about not having any money saved up. Jeeze your pensioners make more than most people in the US!!! not including medical coverage.....We "get it" We don't need a union. We pride ourselves on personal responsibility..and many of us know we are overpaid.when compared to the rest of the workforce in the US.
Here is a review for ya!
My brother-in-law is a Saturn fan. He has a Vue and an Aura. Pretty sure he has had some more of them. He is also the type that can squeeze the last dime from the dealer on a trade. He just traded his 06 Vue on an 08 Vue "Red Line".
He had a few problems with the 06, but nothing to get terribly concerned about. Problem is the trade and resale value of them.
He purchased an 08 "GM Executive" car with 25K miles. It had never been titled.
MSRP was $30K +/-. Purchase price was $18k +/-. In the first year, the car lost approx 40% of its value off of MSRP. Great deal for him. But what about the guy that purchased a brand new 08?
His 06 VUE "trade-in" was near $28K new in 06, and brought $11K trade which he thought was pretty generous since KBB said it was worth $8K-$11k. It was low mileage and looked like it just rolled off the show room. I would define it as excellent. Both cars are loaded.
By comparison, my wifes 03 CR-V with 45K miles looks new, no dings. It's MSRP new was $22K. It's "trade in Value", according to KBB, is $10,050 good, and $10,600 excellent. Perfect inside and out with new Michelin tires. I would define it as perfect also.
So a 6 year old $22K CR-V is worth the same as a 3 year old $28K Vue.
In 6 years the CR-V lost 51%.
In 3 years the Vue lost 60%.
An 03 vue with the same equipment and mileage and condition as our 03 CR-V trades at $6800 good and $7200 excellent.
So much for JD Powers "initial quality" quality really meaning a lot. The true cost of ownership is more involved than most folks think.
To say that some vehicle is Motor Trend's vehicle of the year only involves driving impressions, of NEW or New model vehicles. For instance if the Yugo was the only "New" model vehicle in it's category, it could win by default. :sick:
In a nut shell, the poor quality of D3, UAW Built vehicles, is continuing catching up to them. Even those built in this century. Even though they just might be as good as the imports.
Kip
Wouldn't anyone rather buy a $25K Toyota Camry that will be worth $19K in three years then a $20k Malibu that will be worth $10K in three years? People don;t understand the cost to drive. Its not about initial PRICE. Its about the cost per month over the long run. Yeah the $20K car will cost less per month to PAY FOR but real dollars lost will be far more trade in time.
Most people would agree. The Cadillacs of the 60s were designed to inspire, but the 80s Cadillacs were designed not to offend. They were pathetic snoozemobiles with pleated upholstery.
Somewhere between her '69 & your '89, GM lost its way.
The older UAW members are so indebted that they cannot afford a cost of living reduction. Meanwhile they sap benefits from the new guys.
As for JD Power's initial quality survey, it is just for that INITIAL QUALITY. It does not take into account an owner's opinion on quality after the car is paid off in four years.
As for Satrurn, their resale value is going to take a huge hit when Saturn goes out of business. :lemon: Who would want to buy a Saturn right now in general.
Anybody care to give me their address so I can send a bill?????
rocky: I often wonder, if there was a large tariff on imported cars, would that necessarily bring a rush of buyers back to the Big 3???...for those who have been burned over the years, and, like it or not, there are many, would they pay the extra price for the import rather than the "cheaper" Big 3 car???...I would gamble that if the buyer believed the quality was there, the imports would maintain their share of the market because the folks who have deserted the Big 3 need a VERY good reason to come back, and saving a few thousand, but getting a poorly made product, is no savings at all...that does not count in depreciation, which was documented above to be horrendous for American cars...
Depreciation is the objective measurement of quality, I guess...not in a scientific sense, but if your Big 3 car loses half its value in 2 years, and the import loses it over 5-6, then the market is speaking...that means that the market will pay more for the import because it will probably last longer, or else its value would simply not stay up that high...
You talk about lifestyles, people getting paid for doing nothing in the Jobs Bank, but you never discuss that the American people deserted the Big 3 because they no longer wanted to buy their cars...pure and simple...the American people believe that imports are better...why is that???...ya think maybe they bought enough UAW lemons that they are tired of them and want something reliable???...not everyone has left Detroit iron, but a sufficient dent has been made in their market share...all you talk about is the job of someone who probably never should have been hired in the bloated work force anyway, and all you think is that his job should be preserved no matter what...the answer to that is NO...the Big 3 had their day, and still sell LOTS of cars, but your union destroyed Big 3 loyalty by making too many years and models of junk, and we Americans rebelled against it...truthfully, you can't handle it, and you cannot face the fact that the UAW destroyed itself by destroying the market for Big 3 cars (except for lemko and his circle of friends)...
You just think that the UAW job should be preserved regardless of whether they are needed or not, and they have not been needed for about 20 years...that is false thinking...they need to make the product quality that we demand, and we seem to obtain from imports...and that is something you simply do not get, because you think GM is there to allow Detroiters to buy houses, when the jobs are a byproduct of quality cars...
When the quality comes back, and we KNOW it is not a one model flash in the pan, you will see the buyers back to Big 3 in droves...but you made your bed, and you are simply unwilling to acknowledge that you are now lying in it, having made it over the last 20-30 years...
The quality is back, like Malibu and CTS, but not enough and not long enough...folks say that we should not go back 15, 20, 30 years, but that is how long we have been burned by Big 3 quality..folks left you, some for good, and to this day all you can cry is currency manipulation, instead of knowing that the junk of many years has finally caught up with you, in triplicate...
If a guy is dealing drugs on the corner and killing his fellow citizens with his dope, it's OK. He just had to support his family? If somebody puts a hit out on me and I'm brutally murdered, that's OK. The assassin just had to support his family?
Your examples are illegal acts. Is it illegal for somebody to take a job that is offered?
I don't understand why people have trouble distinguishing between legal and breaking the law. Perhaps that's part of our problem.
People making $7-10 bucks an hour doing manufacturing jobs will not be able to keep the wheels turning in this country. 25% of our jobs are manufacturing. If we lose that "base" this country is SOL...
It's been decades since manufacturing jobs were 25% of the Economy. Note that the UAW Big 3 jobs are only a portion of the 5% of U.S. jobs that are in manufacturing.
From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
9% Goods-producing
3% Construction
5% Manufacturing
47% Service-providing
6% Retail trade
7% Professional & business Svcs
8% Education and health
5% Leisure & hospitality
9% Government
100% Total Employment
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
Tariffs have two problems. It creates inflation as foreign goods go up in price and retaliatory tariffs bight back twice as hard. We put a tariff on Japanese cars, then the Japanese put tariffs on US agriculture foods.
Also this was tried during the Great Depression with disastrous results:
Frantic attempts to shore up the economies of individual nations through protectionist policies, such as the 1930 U.S. Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act and retaliatory tariffs in other countries, exacerbated the collapse in global trade. By late in 1930, a steady decline set in which reached bottom by March 1933.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression
And Rocky, please see a specialist to determine the affects of cheap GM interior fumes on your health. I'm worried about you. They took our Jerbs!
This will allow GM to sever health care to nearly a million people. GM will then compete more equally with it's global competitors.
I'd rather have $5000 more taxes for the rest of my life than to stand by and let this bailout thing happen for GM where they get money they don't deserve. The $5000 more taxes a year for me to pay makes it a viable plan into the future.
Wait a minute. Couldn't I buy a new GM car every 4 years with the $5000 in taxes I will have to start paying? Wonder if that would be helpful to GM now instead of a many year plan to get universal health care.
Avoided: a gov't plan to manage health care for 320 million people. After all, we don't want them managing a 250 thousand person company.
Don't you think universal health care is a little different than giving charity to a failing company.
Wait, didn't you own a Astro Van? One of Detroit's worst cars that helped hastened GM's death. That is right you own an Astro Van? :shades:
Mon Apr 13, 12:45 am ET
WASHINGTON, April 12 (Reuters ) – The U.S. Treasury Department is directing General Motors to lay the groundwork for a bankruptcy filing by June 1, even though the automaker has publicly stated it could reorganize outside of court, The New York Times reported on Sunday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090413/bs_nm/us_autos_gm
However, in the end, the UAW will collapse no matter if old banking families and oligarchs seek global political influence or not, as the decisions of domestic automaker management are just too faulty. I have no sympathy for that union, but I do mourn the demise of western standards established in relatively recent history.
All I can say is I am glad I am alive now and not maybe in a couple centuries - I do not believe most will have it as good.
last time I checked, 2 yr old malibus were selling for more than I can get a new one for. dont talk gas guzzling suvs and then use malibu in your conclusion. The malibu will be worth 14 in 3 yrs, not 10. Besides, Why would I pay an extra 5k to take a chance that I could possibly lose ALL my money slower? The extra insurance and tax and interest would negate all the gains, even if it was possible.
A 2007 Saturn Aura has lost close to $10,000 while the Camry has lost about $5,500.
People just don't trust GM reliability.
A 1999 Astro Van is worth about $3,000. :lemon:
http://libcom.org/library/counter-planning-shop-floor-bill-watson
What happened to the American pride and work ethic?
I will try to stay shorter on posts...
About the tariffs...I was not advocating them, but, I believe rocky is, as I believe (I may be wrong) because I think it is how he sees the way to "level the playing field"...I think it is better to make the best car (which we sadly don't) and compete by having the superior product,,,being raised in the UAW mentality, quality was never an issue, just protecting the jobs of people who insisted (by their behavior) on making an inferior product, and hoping to use gov't control to cram it down our collective throats...
I had a 72 Pontiac Ventura that had a dashboard that was mounted cockeyed by 3 full inches...it was disgraceful...my father had a 76 Olds Omega (both knockoffs of the Nova) that rattled and groaned from Day One...they were junk that no one could be proud of (except the UAW which knew no other kind of workmanship, or lack of it)...
I bring that up simply because if it wasn't for the Japanese bringing us superior cars in the mid-80s (not the 70s, for they were junk, too), I would bet that GM cars would have either stayed the same or gooten even worse, as there was NO competition to compare them to...
Having been exposed to much junk and trash from our illustrious UAW, those Nova knockoffs would be state of the art today if not for the Japanese, and minimal tariffs...
Maybe this nation will be UAW-free by June 1 when the GM bankruptcy takes place...
I know you are against tariffs, but wanted to show some historic examples as to why protectionist tariffs are a horrible idea. Some people like Rocky just don't understand global economics.
It is like all the people who are against immigration. They are so focused on protectionism that they don't see how controlled immigration could help the US.
With housing prices so low and the national debt so high, immigration could help.
But people like Rocky and the UAW are afraid that "They took our jerbs!"
Southerners are smarter than Michiganers. Michigan brain drain.
Most who support immigration don't support controlled immigration. Look at modern Europe for proof. It's a weapon used by the globalists, cultural suicide for easier coercion into the new world order. The EU works for this, and so would a NAU.
Immigration is not an answer to anything right now.
The Dems want to improve wages and working conditions overseas as much as the neocons - that is, in no way. Both sides are controlled by the same sinister force.
Houses in Detroit are going to for $100. Miami has a two year supply of vacant condos on the market.
Yes the market has normalized, but supply is so high that controlled immigration would do a lot of good for some places. Like Michigan.
Also fintail, you have a rocking car library.
DBoston, you say a used malibu is $10k after 2 years and then you need to know where I get my figures? I got them from you.
Those $100 Detroit houses are teardowns, and Florida is cursed because of "free market capitalist" property developers who in a fit of greed and hubris were blindly allowed to build more than the market could sustain, as if somehow the spurious lending practices and flipping mentality of 2004 would be able to last forever. The market might never recover in those areas, and no shame if it doesn't.
There is a time and a place for immigration...I just don't see it as solving problems now. It isn't helping anyone else who has embraced it lately.
I try to limit myself to car related subjects...but idle time is the devils playground :shades:
I think you got that wrong!
The European auto industry designs cars to *brake*.
The D3 companies design cars to *break*!
(couldn't resist) :P
BTW, Camry and Malibu both rated 4 stars. Accord, Civic, Fit, CRV are 5stars.
ALG