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Comments
I think you mean " to break" or wear out.
The infrastucture to support this is what keeps the jobs to buy new ones!
It was a well designed plan, too bad the goverment sold our country out.
So, are you suggesting that designing cars to wear out was a good thing, or a bad thing?
Any car sold today is capable of twice the mileage there getting now with no design changes!
Do you mean gas milage or do you mean the number of years the car will last before breaking?
I believe that you're talking about "planned obsolescence "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
There's a fine line between it being a good thing and a bad thing.
However, I think that a lot of what General Motors has been doing for the past 30 years was just sloppy engineering, and indifferent quality standards rather than a scientific approach to making cars wear out on a schedule.
I used the Edmund's car appraisal tool. You are naive to think that a car backed by a company about to go bankrupt is not more prone to increased depreciation.
What do you drive again? An Astro Van? :shades:
-Rocky
-Rocky
K.I.T.T. always should have been a Corvette. That model Camaro was ugly in comparison and I don't remember Michael night ever having anyone in the back seat.
Every region has immigrants - we are all immigrants here in some way. Why would new immigrants want to come to stagnant or declining places like MI or FL? Not the lands of opportunity. If suckers paid too much to own housing there, woe is them. It's not a solution to any of the problems in the US or the west as a whole.
-Rocky
P.S. The powertrain warranty that is transferrable has also helped residuals along with 12/12 GM certified package.
Those days are over. People voted with the wallets for decades, and the election is over.
The question is what the new GM will look like...
-Rocky
That may be true, but don't think that the 5 or 6 sp autos are standard on the Camcord, because they are NOT! Standard equipt. is a manual. I understand that some people prefer a stick, and that it is not available on a Malibu is a knock, but it's not as if the auto on a Camcord is a no cost option.
-Rocky
I understand that. That was my biggest reason for asking you to do this writeup. A self-analysis from an insider. A loyal. Thank you for taking the time to do this. I just did not want your posts to be seen as rants and knee jerk reactions. This post just about summarizes good and bad about the D3 and the market dynamics you have from that perspective.
Now, some of the fixes you propose, I am sure you realize, will take as long to kick in as they took to erode D3 market - years that is. Reversal of fortune will happen gradually, but it will happen if D3 readies itself for a fight. I think that ignoring the competition for so long has taken it's toll. It is time for the D3 to go to the Gym, reduce fat, and tone it's muscles to fight better, and longer the next time.
Thank you again for the post.
Tariffs have two problems. It creates inflation as foreign goods go up in price and retaliatory tariffs bight back twice as hard. We put a tariff on Japanese cars, then the Japanese put tariffs on US agriculture foods.
Do you think they can win that war??? They need us a helluva alot more than we need them. Just go look at the trade deficit.
Also this was tried during the Great Depression with disastrous results:
Frantic attempts to shore up the economies of individual nations through protectionist policies, such as the 1930 U.S. Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act and retaliatory tariffs in other countries, exacerbated the collapse in global trade. By late in 1930, a steady decline set in which reached bottom by March 1933.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression
This isn't 1930 and we are now in a global economy. A Tariff on imports would be the greatest thing ever to help us recover from this economic crisis.
And Rocky, please see a specialist to determine the affects of cheap GM interior fumes on your health. I'm worried about you. They took our Jerbs!
I am more worried about you pal. It seems the Chinese lead paint has shut down certain function in your mind.
-Rocky
Yeah, but isn't Kemp the loser who fathered 7 kids by like 7 different women???
-Rocky
BMW3 > CTS
Avalon or ES300 > 2010 LaCrosse (not even out yet, REAL SOON NOW)
Corvette - only at that price. Boxster >> Corvette
Accord, Mazda 6 >> Malibu
First, how can you say that about the CTS? The CTS is a 5 series sized car, while the 3 series is Corolla sized. That is the primary reson it handles much better. The (all new) CTS-V has been shown to be better than the M3.
Second, the 2010 Lacrosse, like you said, isn't even out, so it is assinine to make that comment until we and the experts get to pour over them.
Show me an auto rag that rates the Boxter over the Vette.
The last one I'll grant you, but not by much.
-Rocky
-Rocky
No, Gary. Anyone not involved in a dispute between a union and the employer who choses to stick their nose in where it doesn't belong is a scab, and worse than a child molester.
I don't think anybody thinks we are better than them. We are equals in this world.
As far as money making, that is a relative thing. Comparing me making my $34/hr vs. someone in China working for that telco company for say $2/hr is not fair. What you need to compare is our standards of living, our qualities of life. If they still live in what they would consider squalor, then they ARE underpaid. If they live like kings over there, then, I guess, one could say that I am underpaid.
What does that mean? There was a job offer, a guy with five kids took it. What does he care if some fat union bosses have some dispute with the guy who offer him a job?
Last time I checked it was the company owners who pay the rent or mortgage on those properties and machines. Unless you contribute to those payments, you if you chose not want to work there for the offered pay, it's your privilidge not to, but it's not your business who is allowed on that property and in what capacity. Pick up that mortgage/rent payment and then you might.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
What? Because I prefer how a Honda Accord v6 handles/drives over a Malibu and appreciate how smooth and refined the engine is I'm brainwashed? Reliability isn't my first concern. The car has to feel right first. To me, that's usually where I part ways with GM products. They just don't feel right to me in a few key areas.
If you look at every quality reporting agency out there and avg. the scores the Asian cars are still on top overall. That doesn't mean they are better in every category or that the domestics are crap. The difference is small overall. But I appreciate and value those small differences, particularly powertrain refinement where Honda flat out excels whether it's a lawnmower, motorcycle, marine outboard, or car, they are always among the highest rated products in every area they compete.
That said, I've never owned a Honda anything.
Rock, don't get to high on your high horse, because I know you liked your Acura TL, I think you apprecaited it's refinement, quality, styling and performance. Where you brainwashed?
$700 a month eh? How nice is the neighborhood? How big is the house? What are your taxes?
Here in RI, a nice 3 bed 1 bath ranch will run you $250,000 (you'll get a whole 10,000 square feet of land, too). At 5%, w/ 20% down, that'll run you $1100 a month. Prop. taxes, $275/month. Ins. $100/mo. That's close to $1500/mo, or more than DOUBLE what you pay. It's not extravagant, VERY modest, in fact. But, it's just a fact of life that that is what the "free market" demands you pay around here.
Yeah, I'd cross a picket line in a heart beat if it meant feeding my kids. In my opinion if you don't go to work when your scheduled, you quit. I've worked a few union jobs and never understood their mentality. I don't like where I work... I leave! Then again the gung ho union people probably feel the same about me so we're even.
The (UFCW) Retail Clerks union was picketing a grocery store I used to work for years ago (which was union but it was a small independent union) Anytime I drove by or walked by the picketers I'd call them every derogatory name I could think of and to get a life. They didn't have the balls to picket Walmart which isn't union at all, but they wanted to bully their way into a store that already had a union but it wasn't them. Thankfully the store employees never gave in and basically told the UFCW to go screw themselves and the UFCW eventually went away.
It's "mystery metal". You know, the soft stuff.
My sister and BIL are renting a new 3 bedroom ranch with appliances, hardwood floors, unfinished basement and 2 bathrooms outside of Kansas City in for $1200/mo.
I think you WANT to believe that but you DON'T believe that. If you were so sure of that statement then you wouldn't be worrying so much about imports, etc. ?
The original post mentioned "Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan". I'd call the 3-series entry level rather than the 5-series.
CTS better than the M3? It's getting quite good but IMHO handling is not the only important part of Luxury-Performance Sedan. Overall the market still votes BMW. But kudos to GM for at least making this one a decent argument -- that wasn't true in the past and they have accomplished something admirable here.
Second, the 2010 Lacrosse, like you said, isn't even out, so it is assinine to make that comment until we and the experts get to pour over them.
I agree, but Rocky posted it that way and I was just responding. :P He seems to know in advance of vehicles being on the market that they will be the best!
Show me an auto rag that rates the Boxter over the Vette.
This links says Boxster is better:
http://www.nextautos.com/issue-2/boxster-vs-corvette
This comparo says Corvette is better by a bit, but each writer gives his personal opinion and most of them pick Porsches, none of them picks the Corvette as the car he would personally choose:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=1949&page_numbe- r=1
With overtime vanishing, the daily traffic now gets jammed at 5 p.m., when everyone goes home. Narita's earnings have dropped from 40,000 yen ($400), and even 60,000 yen a day in the city's heyday, to between 15,000 yen and 20,000 yen.
"We just had it too good before," he said.
Yuri Kageyama, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
April 10, 2009
Don't ever believe that all people in Japan and China live in grass huts and eat snakes. They have their poor sames as every country does, but they don't need any handouts from the USA or anyone else.
But lets look at the reality of things here. Their employer is burning through so much money they don't even really know how big of a loss they are taking. Any other business in that situation goes out of business or makes some massive changes right away. Large layoffs - payscale changes etc. Thats what the rest of the US work force faces every day - but not the UAW. The average UAW worker makes more than a 5yr college grad in the first year or two working as a public school teacher. The qualifications of a UAW line worker is a GED - nothing wrong with that but think about it.
The people who are screaming for Import taxes on imported Autos - tend to also be the people who never made it beyond the GED because they would know that import taxes would only make things worse. For instance Buick is a premium brand in Asia- slap import taxes on Asian autos and you bet your Buick is going to get buried under heaps of fees that kill its over seas market. Now you just cut a finger off the hand that feeds you.
The true reality of our domestic Auto challenge? Simple the Auto industry is a global business - car parts are sourced from the best priced vs quality source that can be worked out doesn't matter if the parts are made in the US or Romania if you want the best product for the best price its an easy choice you pick the best one. If the bits your making or assembling in the US cost more you need to make up for that cost in other ways. Cheaper parts - parts that don't fit as well together - parts that don't last as long etc - sound familiar? If GM - Ford etc are paying 10-15-20-30% more in labor costs than Subaru down the street in Indiana - where exactly do you think that Ford and GM are making up that lost % in cost? Not hard for us to figure that out is it? Read the complaints about domestic cars - cheap - poorly designed - behind the curve - lame interiors - etc thats how they make up the lost cost..
The same people who think the UAW contracts and practices are good - are the same people who criticize our GOV for not spending what they take in - ie running a deficit larger than anyone can comprehend. Yet they have no clue that their UAW benefits are so out of touch with reality of any industry or job in the US that they are simply killing the company they work for.
Its global people!!! If you build a car in Michigan you better learn how to do it cheaper and better than the people in Korea, India - China, Spain - Romaina etc because if you don't - your only way of staying in the middle class is going to night school and getting a degree that pays what its worth. Days of $80,000 from salary and over time for bolting on bumpers is over.
That attitude pervaded the UAW since the 1970s and into the next century...while American quality did improve over time, the benchmark of the Japanese was a moving taget, also improving their vehicles as well...
Over the last 20 years, admittedly a long time, Americans perceived better quality in the imports and their market share grew dramatically, obviously at the expense of the Big 3...
I am going to assert that the quality gap was REAL, not imagined, simply because the people who deserted the Big 3 deserted for a reason, and it sure wasn't styling, I believe it was quality...especially when the stories are legend about American lemon cars and cars spedning weeks in the dealer soon after purchase...
For all the whining about how Big 3 cars are better, apparently American buyers do not believe it, and the lemkos and rockys of the world are not sufficiently convincing in their statements to bring those buyers back to Detroit...my personal experience with cars in my past and then working in Detroit after that does, to me, confirm what is obvious to the outside observer...Americans have, IMO, been burned too many times that the imports look better by the day...argue with me all you want, but when people desert a product in droves, there has to be a reason, and currency manipulation is not the reason...they like the cars and believe they are better...
Perception is reality...lemko can stand there all day with his GM iron, but will not convince anybody...rocky can complain about some UAW guy losing his job and his house, and the buyer will ask "where was the quality when I bought my GM car???"...buyers will spedn their money on the car they believe is good, and that reputation simply does not ooze from American cars...I blame shoddy workmanship which is easier to see than the ugly design from mgmt, becaus eonce you are past the ugly part, it is the solidness of the vehicle that will impress, and we have not had it for decades...
Union sympathizers must acknowledge that the UAW has done NOTHING to bolster the confidence of the American buyer, only to try and save the jobs of people who sit around and eat jelly donuts...maybe if we were impressed with superior quality, you might have not lost so many jobs...whether you want to see that or not, there is a reason why Americans do not trust Detroit cars (at least to the extent they used to do so), and the UAW is a big part of it...
Get used to a smaller GM and Ford, because it may be a long time before we go back in the same droves that we left, because you have done NOTHING to earn our trust when it comes to quality...
Sorry, rocky, while you whine about jobs lost, we whine about quality lost, and the quality of my purchase is far more important than some UAW job...
Hope this wasn't too long, I am not billing anyone...
How can a company build a brand when it is about to go bankrupt. People thinking it is a good car have to worry about how quality is going to be effected when a million people are trying to get what they think is owed to them (UAW and bondholders).
The Corvette is a great car, but the Z06 falls way behind the GTR and the ZR1 falls way behind the Audi R8, any Ferrari, etc.
Still a great car though.
Also the CTS is notoriously unreliable :lemon: . Consumer reports could not recommend the CTS because of this.
$700 a month eh? How nice is the neighborhood? How big is the house? What are your taxes?
Here in RI, a nice 3 bed 1 bath ranch will run you $250,000 (you'll get a whole 10,000 square feet of land, too). At 5%, w/ 20% down, that'll run you $1100 a month. Prop. taxes, $275/month. Ins. $100/mo. That's close to $1500/mo, or more than DOUBLE what you pay. It's not extravagant, VERY modest, in fact. But, it's just a fact of life that that is what the "free market" demands you pay around here.
Then move...thats what we did.....I refused work years to pay off a home in NJ them pay $8000 a year to "rent " the land it's on....for what? We ran to the south,
We paid $130K for a larger 1500 SF home on a 1/4 acre and put $20K down. Our note was 110K and the payment is $660 Property taxes are 642 a year. Insurance is $580 We will have it payed off in 6 years. We chose the south because we were tired of paying taxes in northern Liberal States. We made the choice to buy a small home we could more than afford. Yeah we could have bought a 2300 SF home for $200K but why? I would never buy a $250K home I could buy for $120K 900 miles away!!. Thats why we initially moved. To find less expensive homes and a more tax friendly environment. You want to live in the NE fine. But you cannot hold companies responsible to pay your way. The property taxes in the NE are outrageous.
We believe in personal responsibility and choice, I would not want to be paid the same as the worse worker. I want to work for a company to be able to fire a worker who is not carrying their load without answering to an outside organization who's primary purpose is to DIVIDE a company between management and Labor. Toyota is not divided. With few exceptions (every work organization has) there is no beef with management. Those who say Toyota's wages are where they are because of the UAW are on crack. If that were true we would be earning a lot more in pay and benefits. I want to work for a company who will buy back 15 year old vehicles becasue they made an error rather than cover it up. I want to work for a company that will spend $10 MORE for a more reliable part then a company who will put an inferior part in a car to save $.10 per car. Cars are assembled by people who are happy or those who are not.......That factor is reflected in reliability, fit and finish.
GM pays 4 BILLION in pensions! Thank You UAW?????
The UAW experiment will never be repeated...there is no where that workers who cannot read and barely write (I know, I was flat-out amazed at the number of folks who cannot fill out a simple 1-page form, but that is the UAW intelligence level) will get paid over $25.hour to sweep the floor...those days are over...
They lived in a bubble dream world, because it went on so long they actually thought they were worth it for janitorial help...
Your comment about happy workers is interesting...I would tend to think that happy people will make better product simply because they like being there...
You have to wonder, as UAW people disappear left and right, will the remaining workers make a good product, or will they follow that solidarity line of crap and sabotage the product so as to "get back at the man"...considering the posters who have vouched for sabotage when times were booming, it is no stretch to believe that the few who remain will sabotage the product even more...fewer bolts tightened, fewer screws installed, parts out of alignment, etc.
What will amaze us all is that they are sufficiently stupid not to comprehend that they will drive even MORE buyers away, because once the stories of sabotage become public ("my buddy lost his job so I'm gonna ruin this day's production...that'll show GM who's boss") they will take on a life of their own, and then NOBODY, literally, but lemko and rocky will buy the only two Big 3 cars made that year...
The UAW intelligence level will drive the carmakers further into the red, simply because instead of being pushed away by poor-to-moderate quality, we will be shoved away by the FEAR of buying a $40K piece of absolute trash...once the public believes that workers will destroy the product out of revenge, sales will drop to zero...
If happy workers make good cars, pissed off workers make.........
Thank our lucky stars that this UAW experiment in failure and poor quality will soon come to an end...the nation will be better for it...
Oh, BTW...while I detest Obama's politics, I must commend him on letting the military sharpshooters do their job...now, if we could just blow the heads off about a billion more radical muslims, we could deal with burying the remains of the UAW...
No offense intended. These are older GM cars built before the Wagoner/UAW quality-fest began...
The one GM I had (Olds 88, company car) only endangered my life when it began seriously leaking gas from the top of the gas tank. A minor QC issue I was told. Good thing I didn't smoke.
But, to be fair and balanced, I owned a Chrysler 300M for 5.5 years, enjoyed that car. A few early teething pains (window motors, tranny module). Not built nearly as well as my current Acura TL (stupidly uneven panel gaps, but didn't leak and nothing fell off. High praise, indeed for the Chrysler), nor as trouble free, but that car gave me hope that the D3 were on their way back. But, I was not going to keep a Chrysler past 70k miles...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
81K is nothing for a car.......and a $3000 spiff from GM is part of why they are where they are. They have to give a huge chunk of car away. Even that did not save them
A Corolla would last 15 years and over 200K easily. In fact people should be able to keep a car for 10 years. Only a handful of car makers can build a reliable ten year car.......GM is not one of them. Exception not the rule.
Oh and BTW one need not trade in a used Toyota or Honda there are always people looking for them used in the LOL.
At some point, a worker stops being considered part time. That is, a company cannot just arbitrarily say a worker is part time and continue to work (and pay them) ~40 hours/week for a year or more on end just to avoid paying benefits.
Just in the last year or 2, Microsoft was taken to court (maybe it was arbitration) over that very issue. They had a number of "part time" programmers that had been on the payroll for years, doing the exact same job and working similar hours as full-time workers, only the part timers were not paid any benefits. I believe the ruling went against Microsoft and they had to start paying the part-timers (which they were in name only) benefits, along with back pay, so they effectively became full time employees with benefits.
God thing now that the engine could cook! :surprise:
Regards
OW
What makes you think it's that simple? Do you think everybody is going to abandon the northern states for the south?? If they did, I've got news for you....you'll end up in the same boat you were in in NJ.
Speaking of NJ, and my RI, these are the 2 most densly populated states in the country, IIRC.
".....You want to live in the NE fine. But you cannot hold companies responsible to pay your way. The property taxes in the NE are outrageous."
Proporty taxes ARE outrageous here, no doubt. Where you miss MY point is if COMPANIES want to do business UP HERE, then they have to pay the going rate UP HERE!!! You can't hold the employees responsible to do a job for, essentially nothing.
I work for Verizon. If you can come up with a way to move all our telephone cables to Kentucky, and still do business HERE, I'll gladly move.
Having worked in the Telephone business 46 years I am aware that it is unique and somewhat indispensable. Kind of a monopoly that is everywhere. Not the same can be said for manufacturing companies. Whether Rocky wants to believe it or not companies have been moving out of high labor states to better locations for at least 200 years. I am sure when Michigan and Ohio were being industrialized it was for several reasons. CHEAP Labor being one of them. I know that much of the industry moved out in the 1960s due to high labor costs. High taxes will also force companies to move. CA has run all but a few very clean high tech businesses out of the state. Those that did not leave the country went to states like TX, AZ, NV & NM.
How can you blame a corporation, that is constantly hassled by repressive Unions like the UAW, from moving to a more labor friendly state? I don't know if it is coincidence but many of those same states have higher than average taxes. Business is for making money. If Taxes, labor, regulations etc get in the way of making money, why stay in business?
You made a great buy, and I'm glad that worked out for you... but it points out GM's problem, exactly -
The Sunfire did not list for $6500 - you had a $3000 discount from GM. However, that car did not originally list for $9500 either. It was already marked down from list at $9500. GM lost thousands selling you that car.
However, in order to sell the car, they had to reduce the price far enough to make it attractive to buyers. Once the price is low enough, people will buy.
The Corolla sold for close to list price. Toyota MADE money on every Corolla they sold. Note that this discussion has nothing to do with the quality of the vehicles per se. It's all about what people pay for the vehicles.
Even if their quality is good as Toyota's , GM has trained buyers to expect to pay less than list for their cars. They've been discounting them for years and years and their customers simply expect to pay well less than list for their cars.
There's a famous story in the retail world about K-Mart. They were losing sales to Wal-Mart, so they hired a guy from Wal-Mart to turn them around. Well, K-Mart had been using the sales flyer system of advertising special prices on certain products every week. They'd trained their customers to read the flyers, see what was on sale, and then buy that item. K-Mart would make small profits on that item, but would have huge volumes.
The Wal-Mart model doesn't use sales or sales-flyers. They have "every day low prices". So the Wal-Mart guy decided to save money by not printing and mailing sales flyers and used the money he saved to lower prices in the stores -changing to the "every day low prices model".
He nearly put K-Mart out of business. People were used to expecting weekly specials from K-Mart; that wasn't happening any more. When K-Mart started interviewing shoppers about why they weren't buying at the every day low prices, here's what they found:
People were saying, "Sure that's a great price, but I'm going to wait till it goes on sale and get a REALLY great price!"
GM has trained their customers the same way. Their choices are to either sell the cars at a discount, and take threadbare profits (and sometimes lose money). This is the grocery store model and it requires huge volume sales to work. Note that the grocery store model also assumes that while you're buying the items on sale, you'll pick up something else on which the store makes a better profit. For GM that used to be accessories. However that profit stream has been cut because so many things that used to be luxury upgrades are now standard.
If the grocery model isn't bring profits, the other alternative is to artifically inflate list prices so that they can discount them and still make a profit. This is the Department Store Model where a $20 sweater is marked at $98 so it can be marked down to $24.
However, the foreign competition makes the 'mark-em-up-to-mark-'em-down' model a tough sell. Worse GM has a huge backlog of cars to sell. Now is NOT the time to try changing pricing models. They're forced to keep discounting, and the consumer simply has too much information available for the 'mark-em-up-to-mark-'em-down' to have any chance of success. Nobody is going to believe that a Pontiac G5 is worth $30, and that they're getting a bargain at a sale price of $24K.
So, (back to the UAW) the only way to succeed is to lower costs of production. If you can reduce costs, you can keep your pricing model and still make money. Well, we all know that GM cut parts cost and squeezed their suppliers - causing quality problems. We know that they simplified designs and rationalized parts - causing quality perception problems among their customers ( A Cobalt steering Wheel works fine in a Corvette, but it seems cheap.) There's no more blood in these turnips. Where else can GM save money? In business school, we're taught that - in any business - labor is your single largest controllable expense.
Given what we've seen here from the UAW supporters, I think GM is hopelessly screwed.
So says you. My '91 GMC ran fine for the 9 years I owned it ('97-'06). Same for my '88 Regal ('88-02). My father's '88 Park ave is still on the road running fine. My BIL just got rid of his '94 Chevy after 10 years. My cousin just sold her '88 Mustang after 20 yrs of ownership. My '99 Ultra is going to my nephew in a few months, runs beautiful.
I haven't even mentioned my '65 Wildcat or my bil's '67 Camaro or my friend's '69 Cutlass (gee, all over 40 years old. Don't see many Toymota's that old)
You can't blame them for moving. I know. I believe higher taxes are a byproduct of our generally denser population base, plus the fact that the South keeps sending their rejects (read; habitual welfare recipients) up here, and we take them.