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It was never truly about improving the standard of living of anyone save for that of the top few. And they love the liberal vs anyone else garbage to come into play - distracts the sheeple from their own downfall.
A message for everybody, especially the UAW:
NO company is going to look out for #1 like you are. Union or not. Be selfish. Get skills. Outcompete the other workers. If you want to be on the high side of the bell curve then there needs to be others on the low side. If you don't want to get skills and work your [non-permissible content removed] off for that higher standing then you are the reason that *I* am on the high side of the average.
Harsh, but true.
While the union has tried to protect each other, the other countries' workers were outcompeting YOU.
China was going to come out of its shell at some time. There is no way a billion people would not want to raise their standard of living. And it is happening. For the millions who are living better lives, this would be one of the goals of the traditional charity-driven liberal establishment.
It was never truly about improving the standard of living of anyone save for that of the top few.
Perhaps true somewhat of the more greedy conservatives. But you can't deny that much of the world is seeing a big rise in their standard of living. That competition is a much bigger reason our auto industry is in trouble than a few thousand greedy elite crooks making a lot of money. The elitist argument is a distraction at best.
Competition is like the conservation of energy. It was bound to happen - the rest of the world saw what we had and they are busting their butts to get there, too. There is no point fighting it. Instead of whining, all the energy being spent by the UAW moaning about currency manipulation, tariffs, trade barriers, phases of the moon, right-hand drive, closed markets, engine sludge, transmissions, biases of CU, etc. -- that energy should be spent making sure that the US makes the BEST CARS IN THE WORLD. Not the embarrassing crap we've been dealing with for over 30 years.
Please slow down the "liberal" bitter cries, sad distraction. Most who use those cries have a very hard time taking accountability for the movements they support.
The rise in the standard of living in less developed areas where western jobs are offshored for the profit of a few is a coincidence, not the goal the globalists seek. It is a moot point.
The elites are consolidating wealth much faster than any gains seen by the rest of humanity, the lesser mortals in their view. This is not an opinion nor can it callously be passed off as a distraction - it is simple fact, and it is an unsustainable ideal unless one desires a serf 'n elite society.
American cars, which I agree do not lead the world, are a very small piece in this disaster. It comes down to this - free trade is not just when areas that pay for some measure of social and environmental responsibility are forced to compete head to head with areas that are not paying for those expensive ideals. Those ideals are what make the west the west, and they should not be abandoned so the most irresponsible segment of society can take in a few more undeserved dollars.
Globalization = a simple race to the bottom for all but a chosen few.
How about "GM's notorious Lost Quarter Century: 1975-2000".
So that must've been about when, 1980-1985 somewhere, in that time frame during Reagan's terms? No wonder Honda and Toyota and the rest gave themselves green lights to go in, then, and build with abandon. I understand about transplants, it's just that I've never heard that it was Ronnie Reagan that negotiated the deal.
So, according to rockford, someone like me, who buys an '08 Lancer GTS that is built solely in Japan, is pondscum in the 1st degree. Complain to your Legislator or to Barack, rock, if it's legal I look for the best deal for the money I can find. Yep, tools, too, from Wal*Mart. Crying about this seems to be backsliding and chomping on rabbit turds for fun.
I get more concened about the border drug wars, paying for illegals hospital and cost-of-living, etc. Paying for their education when all they do is disrespect the state and country they're sucking off of, etc. There are way more important battles to feel strongly about, to me, than whether someone buys an import or a domestic rig.
And yes, one does have to look after their own self as far as training and jobs go. Fully completely. If you gain the right skill, as Dad used to say, you can write your own ticket and go where you want. Truedat, Dad, may you rest in peace, man. I miss you so very much.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The same could be said for the USA. As you have pointed out in the past. It makes little difference who we elect. There are a few wealthy that make the rules. We are stuck trying to do the best we can under those rules. The impetus that was behind the UAW long ago no longer exists. They are not treated as slaves. The UAW devoured their own company with restrictive rules and unsustainable pension plans. Now they get to compete with the rest of the unskilled workers both legal and illegal. Being a Walmart greeter is not that tough of a job to supplement a retirement.
But with steamships & railroads, it was no longer necessary to build factories close to customers. You could set up shop wherever you could find cheap raw materials & labor. And once the telegraph had been invented, your main office could be thousands of miles away from your factory.
I'd say that globalization was inevitable by 1850. Later technological developments - the telephone, commercial air travel, highway systems &, most recently, the Internet - only sped things up. If Nixon & Kissinger had never been born, the world would look pretty much the same as it does today. Globalization is a product of technology.
If only Captain Smith would've just had a few more margarita's and relaxed a bit more, and realized that the Titanic was gonna make it to NY. Man, you had a rich White Star retirement waiting for you once you docked that behemoth in New York City's harbor. Still one of the most fascinating news stories about too much too fast in technological advancement. Had to speed up so he could brag about it later in NYC over a plump steak and tangy margarita.
His telegraph operators were taking in messages from other ships warning about icebergs all over the north Atlantic.
A good comparison can be made to the behemoth GM. Things are running along fine, burning through fuel, and slowly things are emerging that the Captain, or CEO, should be looking at. Deciding to change something...save lives, in the Titanic's case. For GM, it's jobs. Ignoring warning signs, humm...sound familiar?
Those poor people on April 14-15, 1912. The strike of the iceberg happened at about 11:41PM, IIRC, on April 14, 1912.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
A good comparison can be made to the behemoth GM.
How many years have many of us grossly underpaid non-CEOs been saying about GM:
- Fire Wagoner
- Radically cut the number of brands
- Improve interior quality
- Stand up to the union
- If none of that works, declare chapter 11
It took 3-5 years and a lousy economy for GM to finally realize we were right. Wagoner the $15million/year man went begging to Congress to get some of YOUR MONEY and MY MONEY to save his ship. It took the PRESIDENT to do what the Board should have done. Now here we are.
The Board at Ford, and even their previous CEO, were smarter than GM, so Ford has a really good chance. Let's hope the UAW isn't so stupid as to torpedo the last surviving/non bankruptcy US car maker.
Much of that technology existed for some time without the negative impacts being
given to the western world today - the many paying for the benefit of the few. The one world ideal is a disease.
UAW perks and unsustainable pensions are known and being fought...I want to see public sector equivalents fought just as hard.
So here are the true colors. This UAW sympathizer (member?) thinks you are pond scum if you decide to buy a product that you want if he doesn't like it. Doesn't matter whether the product is cheaper or better. Somehow the values of the USA have turned into "I will deny your freedom of choice to buy what you want because I don't like it".
- Crime is ok, if it helps the UAW
- Freedom of choice is not ok, if it hurts the UAW
- Doing legal things is not ok, if it hurts the UAW
Nice. Did the inmates escape from Alcatraz and begin working making cars?
Millions more people will lose there jobs. It's that simple!!! :sick:
But if enough people don't buy their cars to make a profit, then the ONLY choice is to go bankrupt and let the ripple effect happen...
Forget the ripple effect for a moment...if GM cannot make money, why should they stay in business....HOW can they stay in business...should the Fed gov't simply buy them and operate like a large welfare facility, because that is all it is...if the company is not viable it must go under, reagrdless of the ripple effect...
They could make money on a level playing field. Hell millions of jobs would be spared and created if we leveled the playing field. It's like if the Falcons beat the Lions then so be it!!! I am a Lions fan but can accept that the better team one because each team has a equal playing field well except that the Cowboy's have always got good spots by the refs!!!
Should Johnson Controls make dashboards for cars that do not sell???...
No. But right now pretty much everyone is losing money. Not too many vehicles are selling.
GM is simply a victim of the change in the market, combined with an anti-business UAW work (donut eating) force...just because it grew as big as it was is no reason for it to stay that big...as their suppliers grew, they, too must shrink in size to survive...THERE IS NO OTHER ANSWER...all those jobs that were there when they sold 10 million cars yearsly simply are not there when they sell 5 million cars yearly...after all your whining, the only answer is that half of them, or more, have to go...if they used efficient manufacturing methods, 2/3 of them would be unnecessary...
I can handle a smaller profitable GM. I believe in allowing the market to decide who stays and who dies. I don't believe outside forces should be able to influence those choices. I would love nothing more than this country to rebuild it's industrial base. We should be making everything here in this country. Refrigerators, Washing Machines, TV's, should also be allowed to compete on a level playing field. What I mean is if you Marsha7, wanted to give up being an attorney and wanted to start your business making TV's and wanted to build them in this country using american labor well you should be able too. You should not have to worry about competing with Sony, making TV's with Slave Labor for pennies on the dollar that would run you out of business by undercutting you.
Industry has changed from 50 years ago, but we use 50 year old methods...it is not the function of the company to create as many jobs as possible, it is the function of the company to operate as lean as possible, so as to make maximum profit...in the case of GM, they have made NO PROFIT, yet, you keep thinking that the jobs should remain...for what???...to make what???
Well what has killed the car companies is that each person buying an american car thinks they should get employee pricing + rebates and/or zero percent financing. That deal was so good that people expect it killing residuals during the tough economic times. I agree if there is no profit to be made there is no sense to stay in business. Again the problem is un fair trade. I deep down believe you know that this is killing american business. Currency Manipulation, Unfair Trade, Trade Barriers. Slave Labor Made products should be banned in this country. We are not practicing what we preach with regards to human rights. :sick:
con't........
So we can either keep our heads in the sand and do nothing to fix the root problems that got us here in the first place and let millions upon millions of people lose there houses, cars, healthcare, disposable income along with thousands of small businesses that will go BK like small coffee shops, gas stations, schools, etc. The ripple effect will destory this country. Our local suppliers said they will have to file for BK. These are your non-union shops. They will not be able to restructure fast enough or be able to absorb that kind of a loss thus they will throw in the towel causing a shortage of parts for other manufacturers. How is Toyota, going to get it's parts from the same suppliers that GM, uses if the supplier goes BK??? Toyota, management said if GM, goes BK it will do serious damage to Toyota. So what is the answer??? Do you really want to risk this??? It's not just UAW jobs that are on the line.
Once you accept the principle that the company exists to make a profit and that jobs are a result of profit, the downsizing of GM becomes child's play...if your are one of the naive who believe that companies are established solely to create jobs, then you have an eye-opening experience ahead of you...
I as a consumer of and relative of many GM workers it's a double whammy for me. Not only would I lose the products I like to own but it would personally affect me financially as my family will as a whole will be a whole lot poorer. :sick: I can bag getting a car sales job again. I might not be able to find a job period and if I did it sure in the hell wouldn't pay anything because everyone and there brother would be willing to do it for poverty wages.
I used to have 5 employees in my Detroit office...I computerized in 1987...found out I no longer needed two of the employees, so I cut back to 3, because computers could do the repetitive paperwork...I am a small business, but computers did one of two things:
1. made my office more efficient and cut my overhead (good for me)
2. made two jobs disappear (bad for them)
That is good for you. This isn't 1987 and back in those days the economy was in a lot better shape despite what Reagan, did to damage it. I'm sure you two employees found good paying jobs right away.
Should I remain on typewriters solely because two people lost their jobs...in your mind, I started my office to create jobs which is not true...in my mind, I have increased my efficiency and can do the work with fewer people...the office WAS created to earn a living for ME, and any other job created was done out of profitability...the computer increased my profitability...if YOU were in chanrge of my office, not only would I still be using typewriters, they would be manual instead of IBM Selectrics, because manual typewriters are even slower than IBMs...you simply do not understand why business is created, so you cannot understand why the downsizing must occur...
I know you think I'm a complete dummy Marsha7 but I would look at increasing efficiency means we will soon create enough capital to expand and if I had the money to play with I would probably send my 2 employees that lost there jobs to school to learn the jobs I will be creating. That is what we use to do back in the old days. Now the office manager wants to hire some illegal alien or H-1B employee he/she can screw over on pay and benefits. :mad:
GM will survive, just smaller, with fewer employees...it will still be a large company, just not the largest in the world...and the suppliers will cut back, and eventually it will all work out...
I sure hope you are right. I'm not convinced yet. :sick:
5-10 years from now, no one will remember this, because it will be ancient history, along with the UAW and their profit-sucking work rules...
If GM, is still around there will still be a UAW. The UAW employees might be getting a screw job but they will bounce back. The UAW should of gotten behind Dennis Kucinich. The problem is poor Dennis, didn't have the "good looks" to move to the top because it's ultimately a popularity contest and who has the better idea's on the issues means little.
-Rocky
-Rocky
There is NOTHING new going on today that has not happened in the past.
Rush and Mises aren't doing a good job with your history education. I would be more than happy to give you a few lessons at a union discount that you qualify for of course.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rkramer62/2999379012/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eridony/2784570942/
Downtown Grand Rapids
http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrinwassom/782111371/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrinwassom/1395143152/in/set-72157600041618882/
Breath Taking!!!! :shades:
It was a special relaxing walk along the river as I haven't been down there since I was a child (11-13) and it gave me a great view of our beautiful city and just how much we keep expanding and why I'm optomistic we will survive. Western Michigan, is my home. It shaped me into the person I am. I saw a couple guys catch "Steelhead" and it was the perfect spring sunny day that cleansed my soul and cleared my head from all the negative stress. I told my ex I can't leave this place because I love it here too much.
-Rocky
-Rocky
You are truly dilusional. Atleast my ballplayers were good role models. Kemp, was strung out on drugs and became a loser. Payton, was a good ball player but had a bad attitude. He was good just not great like the all-time stels and assist leader. Karl Malone's stats speak for themselves. He was in my opinion the best basketball player to ever play. Michael, was worshipped because he could dunk the ball from the free-throw line and was in a huge market and had the better players on his team. These kids today say Kobe, was better than MJ. That is debatable. I still think Lebron, will end up the best ever because he's as bigger than Karl Malone and can dribble like Kobe. He can do things nobody else can because he has the brute power to play like a big man but the finnese of a guard. I also think Lebron, has a team first attitude instead of all about me like Kobe or MJ.
And Greta visited a GM plant making a Buick SUV, I thought it was in Michigan. You name the large bland SUV for me, rocky. I don't keep close tabs on GM and haven't since the 1960's.
It was a Buick Enclave. :P
And Kia's styling on the 1999 Kia Sephia drew me in to look some more, while Hon-Duh's turned me off like watching Bab-wah-waaaa-waaaa on any TV show she selected to grace us with her presence. Apparently others saw this, though so many Edmunds posters forever sing the praises of Hon-duh and Toyota that they didn't and still don't see the enthusiast's mark on Kia body styling. It could be seen with the front end styling of the Sephia compared to the Billy Bob Thornton "mashed potatoes without the gravy" Hon-Duh styling on the 1999 Hon-duh Civic. No, I don't feel this pressure a lot of y'all do to sing praises to the Hon-Duh and Toyota gods.
Yikes, Hon-Duh still doesn't have a single body stylist in their stable. I would never disgrace my driveway with one of their non-style-mobiles. Truth be that.
It can be said that for those with an eye for good car body styling Kia accomplished their said mission embarked upon in the mid-90's in South Korea. And I just said it.
Well hopefully all of there transplants become UAW ones so injured workers aren't terminated because they were hurt on the job and some of those part-time workers can become full-time and will beable to obtain some benefits. :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
I agree that is the absolute best solution but the next best thing is to level the playing field as a compromise.
Your globalization theory doesn't hold weight dino. Go buy some chinese made crap and compare it too something made here!!! A Chinese Made Tool is forged out of some cheap copper like metal with silver paint. An american made tool is made of forged steel. One you can buy at the dollar store and the other you have to buy at a hardware store where people buy "real" tools that will last.
-Rocky
P.S. I can picture lemko, turning a chinese made wrench on his kitchen sink and "SNAP"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
With the foriegn auto makers when a person retires they become the ward of the state. If the company down sides and a person losses there job they become ward of the state. When a UAW peron retires the money and pi that was suppossed to have been put a side to help off set this persons pension was not done ( like social security did) now that all these people are retiring there is no money in the account, That is why 401k's were started" The price of medical care is also killing us, you can see it in a hospital bill when my mother inlaw was in one two asperin were $6 I can by a hole bottle for that price.
Many of the work rules might seen stupid but they are there from past experince like sticking youre arm in between a moving chain years ago when you dropped a bolt you use to stick an arm in between and pick it up untill some ones clothes got snaged and that person lost a arm :sick:
-Rocky
P.S. I agree also with your scab comment from your other post!!!
-Rocky
Not around here I can promise you that!!! There would be more hits than Ty Cobb.
-Rocky
-Rocky
P.S. I liked your joke also!!!
Thank-you!!! That is the first time we agreed!!! :P
That being said, in this economy; if the UAW was to strike GM and Chrysler would have no problem replacing them.
Perhaps but it could be your only day for a long time
-Rocky
They aren't BK yet. But.............
#1 Trade. The current system in place isn't free trade but unfair trade. We allow imports to be dumped on our markets while are trading partners put up barriers and tariffs on our products. (Exports)
#2 We have allowed foreign countries to subsidize there industry with tax payer money both at home (Japan) and abroad (U.S.) "Our tax dollars helped built these modern factories here" and the Japanese workers have national healthcare to keep expenses low.
#3 UAW wages are higher than the the average factory worker. Wasn't a problem until we allowed foreign interests like the Japanese to take over economically. They have purchased politicians like Boxer, Feinstein, Shelby, Pelosi, Graham, to lobby against american business and worker interests.
#4 Currency Manipulation. Do I need to say more??? The $3-12K profit margin on imported vehicles from Japan allow a artificial profit to take place. In the 1980's they used this profit to under cut the Big 3 while still making a profit while the Big 3 sold vehicles at losses just to stay competitive. Selling a Lexus LS will yield Toyota approx $10-12 of "extra" profit despending on yen prices to the dollar.
#5 The media was on the buy Japanese bandwagon. Michael J. Fox said in Back to the Future "Doc, all the best stuff is made in Japan" and that was the mentality.
#6 GM CEO Roger Smith, once said something like the american people will buy whatever we produce. :mad: Wrong attitude. :sick:
#7 Engineering. The bean counters believed in the good enough approach. Make something that is styled good and we will make the parts as cheap as possible. This mentality didn't change until the 1990's when the engines got better and were more reliable. The 3800 and 350 were the first really good engines from GM. They learned a lot from the LT-5 which evolved to the Northtar Technology. They had some early hiccups with some of there engines i.e. Northstar, 3.5 Shortstar. in the 90's. Quad 4 was junk as was the 3.1 and 3.4 except the DOHC 3.4 was a good engine. The interiors hurt GM. Badge Engineering. They should of shared technology and platforms with there global partners to cut costs 30 years ago which would of helped eliminate the need for badge engineering. Still a problem today.
#8 Customer Service and Sales at the dealerships were horrible at some places. We now have CSI scores and factory training as a test. Dealerships have gotten cheap and GM lost a lot of good sales people to import dealerships because of commission structure.
#9 Warranty Work. GM, had a problem stepping up to the plate. I had a problem with my aluminum rims leaking air because they are likely from China. I eventually took care of the problem roughing up my rims and getting them cleaned 3 or 4 times. GM would not step up and replace my factory rims. They are doing a better job but it's not where it needs to be.
#10 Technology. GM, seemed to always lag behind in technology and creature comforts. it is much better now but growing up the imports were leaders. They also were more efficient by bundling these trim packages in usually 3 or 4 levels. GM, would let too many people customize there cars which isn't efficient.
#11 Fleet Sales, killed residuals (resale)
2. Bullet point list of actions that can prevent GM from going bankrupt.
#1 Fix NAFTA and Free Trade to Fair Trade. The Indians (dot not feather) will kill us with TATA. Hyundai/Kia, has a labor wage advantage and currency manipulation and will grow if we don't address it.
#2 Currency Manipulation. We can either tell the Asians to address it or implement a tariff to counter act it.
#3 Make other nations open up there markets to our exports or restrict there imports. It's that simple. Some tariff american exports and that percentage "damage" should be countered.
#4 National Healthcare would get rid of GM's biggest burden of it's employees.
#5 Government investment. If we are going green to save us money down the road show me the money for these expensive changes.
#6 Military and other government contracts. Military equipment should not be outsourced but rather insourced. Why not let a struggling automaker like GM, build the latest and greatest military vehicles and other equipment. Let GM, build these bullet train locomotives and wind and solar technologies. They might be able to use some of these technologies on cars. I think Ford and Chrysler should get equal amounts. if we give them the money they have to by written order keep this technology here and these plants opened as part of the agreement for using tax- payer money.
#7 GM, needs to bring back Tiger Woods and keep Hollywood and other influential people endorsing there products. They haven't had the best history marketing.
#8 Free Maintainence. I would copy BMW. This would raise residuals and peoples perception of GM, to lemko levels. They would drink the Kool-Aid. They will need another car guy like Lutz, to keep the good products rolling. GM, killed great car idea's like the Velite, while allowing cars like the Aztek and Cimmaron to make it to the show room. :mad: They also need to get the 4.5L V8 Duramax for half-ton pick-ups and the 2.9L V6 diesel sold in Europe for the CTS. A smaller diesel for the Chevy Cruze would be welcomed and they really need to push this biodiesel and Ethanol made out of garbage and tires to the market.
I hope some of this helps you see my point from a fan, family member, former sales consultant of GM. This is a very personal issue for me. I grew up worshipping GM and Delphi. If they fail so does my family's way of life as I know it.
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
If a guy is dealing drugs on the corner and killing his fellow citizens with his dope, it's OK. He just had to support his family? If somebody puts a hit out on me and I'm brutally murdered, that's OK. The assassin just had to support his family?
Per keying foreign cars - I never vandalized anybody's property and won't.
Before you think I just a UAW shill, I'm not in the UAW, nor are any friends or family. I don't work in the auto industry or am associated with it in any manner. I just know what I like, and it's the Cadillac and Buick cars built by UAW workers!