one important factor...despite politics, the main reason for the loss of jobs in union states like the Midwest was that the Big 3 spent YEARS making junk cars...JUNK...and they thought we, the buying public, would simply swallow and take it...then the japanese came in droves in the 1980s and showed us what a quality automobile can be, and we bought them...
Not because of Reagan, Bush or Clinton, not because someone forced us to do so, we bought them voluntarily because they were BETTER...blame management, blame union, blame the Mayor of Detroit, but American cars were junk and any blind person could see it...
Unions have lost power because the alternative was better than their product, and they are unemployed because they thought if they just "waited it out" their bad habits would be supreme again...but no, the Japanese simply made their better cars even BETTER, and never ONCE did the UAW strike over the crap they were making, but always over wages...
Well, they got their wages, they got their benefits, and now they have lost almost half their market share because folks like me have longer memories than they think we do...while I have very little respect for the union worker, it is apparent that the union worker, assembling junk for many years, had very little respect for me, the consumer...
Why didn't they strike for better cars and better methods of quality control???...if they had any brains at all, and they do not, striking for better QC may have insured that they WERE employed by making cars better then the Japanese and maintaining market share...
But they started this "Buy American" hollow slogan, asking us to buy their crap to save our neighbor's job...when our neighbor makes a product worth buying, I will buy it...but to wave the flag and tell me to buy junk for my neighbor, tell my neighbor where to stick it...
Rather than a closed market, we have accesss to better products from overseas (now also made here)...why can't the union strike for newer tooling to make cars with closer tolerances, like Honda/Toy???...because they don't care as long as they have a job and can leave drunk on Friday, payday, and show up hung over on MOnday, with a union to protect their job...
Back in the 1960s, over 50 years ago, it was well known not to buy a car made on Monday or Friday...and that was not the fault of management...face the truth, the union planted seeds of their own destruction over half a century ago, long before NAFTA, long before the Honda/Toy invasion, and they have achieved a bumper crop in the obvious consequences...
The UAW can only look in the mirror to realize who did this to them, and, considering how many of them are hung over on Monday, that image in the mirror ain't pretty...
I'd have to agree with Marsha on this topic. One personal story regarding the modern day workings of a union...
My uncle has worked in many non-union fields for more than 20 years. He recently accepted his first union job making life-saving equipment, sold to various municipalities across the country, which sell for $200K-$1 million.
As he had done at all his previous non-union jobs, he took his job seriously and worked hard throughout his shift. However, his union co-workers quickly told him that working at such a fast pace was unacceptable.
I can't recall exactly how my uncle stated it, but he said guys told him..."You work just enough to not raise eyebrows/get fired, but not hard enough to piss off your co-workers."
So from the first day, he learned that he must work at about 50% productivity level, so that he wouldn't out pace the rest of the guys and make them look bad.
It is so bad, the union guys intentionally work slow throughout the week when a truck needs to be finished, because they know management will have them work overtime and they will get paid 2x their normal salary.
According to my uncle, they could easily get the work done during normal hours, but instead hold out for the extra money.
Keep in mind that every tax-paying citizen of this country is affected by this horrible practice since every city/county must buy this equipment, with YOUR tax dollars.
If these union workers did their jobs as they should, the cost of this equipment would probably go down by 20/30/40%.
I was a Federal employee until the end of 1980 - 6 months before the PATCO strike began. Sorry to say this, but my colleagues & I considered the controllers to be a bunch of spoiled, overpaid prima donnas. Back then, they were far & away the highest paid non-management workers in the Federal government. (My job required a 4-year college degree, but I earned less than half as much as a controller, who only had to be a H.S. grad.)
When Reagan showed them the door, even those of us who didn't like him cheered wildly.
bumpy: Short answer: they were paid not to. Longer answer here.
There's less here than meets the eye.
During the early postwar years, the UAW was striking for higher wages. The car companies claimed that raising wages would raise prices. The union claimed that this was not necessarily true, and demanded to see the car makers' books. In particular, the union struck GM in 1946 for months, seeking higher wages. GM management stood its ground. It also refused to open its books to the union.
The union WAS NOT striking for better quality control methods, less badge engineering or smaller, more fuel-efficient models, no matter what modern-day revisionists claim. It had no particular expertise in the areas of product planning, styling or engineering (aside from production engineering) in those days, and still doesn't today.
The union wasn't interested in those areas then, and still really isn't today. The UAW wanted more pay and benefits, but was sensitive to charges that the settlements were driving up the prices of new cars. Remember, in the late 1940s and early 1950s, despite a prosperous economy, memories of the Great Depression were still vivid, and even a small price increase in new cars seemed pretty substantial to people accustomed to pinching every penny.
The union wanted higher wages and benefits; the company claimed that this would result in higher car prices. The union wanted the companies - particularly GM - to pledge not to raise car prices in response to a rise in wages. GM said "no." GM wanted the union to "butt out" regarding the prices of new cars.
In the lush postwar market, GM gave the union generous pay and benefits, and the union stopped demanding that the company not raise prices in response to each wage settlement. GM knew that it could afford to pass at least some price increases on to customers. It also knew that the generous settlements seriously hurt the independents and, as events would prove, even Chrysler, as they had to spread increased costs over a much smaller production base. They couldn't raise their prices as much as GM (and, to a lesser extent, Ford), which could spread costs over a much larger number of vehicles.
Of course, in the 21st century, competition HAS de-linked union pay and benefits from the price of cars. The domestics can no longer automatically raise the prices of cars to cover higher costs, as they did through the early 1980s. This is part of the reason they are facing bankruptcy.
" in the late 1940s and early 1950s, despite a prosperous economy, memories of the Great Depression were still vivid, and even a small price increase in new cars seemed pretty substantial to people accustomed to pinching every penny."
The above is interesting because I remember those days when new cars were in such demand, the dealers had waiting lists of future customers. People would be on four different lists like Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, & Chrysler and often the dealers would accept up to $500 to place a name at the head of the list. I remember knowing of many local people who paid a premium for the first new 1942 cars produced after The War. It wasn't until 1949 that production caught up with demand. Some of the earliest post war cars arrived without bumpers and hubcaps as chrome was still scarce and the dealers installed wood 2X4's (bumpers)because demand was so great. They weren't pinching pennies around the NW. They wanted their new car and they wanted it now!
I believe the average age of a car after the war was something like 7-9 years old. So people were probably still driving around in their 1938 Plymouth most likely with bald tires.
You're probably right. No new cars were built between early 1942 & the fall of 1945, so the pent-up demand was enormous. And it was nearly impossible to buy new tires during the war -- at a time when tires wore out after 8 or 10K miles.
Dad told stories about slipping a car salesman a couple of hundred bucks under the table to pry loose a new '46 Plymouth.
one important factor...despite politics, the main reason for the loss of jobs in union states like the Midwest was that the Big 3 spent YEARS making junk cars...JUNK...and they thought we, the buying public, would simply swallow and take it...then the japanese came in droves in the 1980s and showed us what a quality automobile can be, and we bought them...
Not because of Reagan, Bush or Clinton, not because someone forced us to do so, we bought them voluntarily because they were BETTER...blame management, blame union, blame the Mayor of Detroit, but American cars were junk and any blind person could see it...
Unions have lost power because the alternative was better than their product, and they are unemployed because they thought if they just "waited it out" their bad habits would be supreme again...but no, the Japanese simply made their better cars even BETTER, and never ONCE did the UAW strike over the crap they were making, but always over wages...
Well, they got their wages, they got their benefits, and now they have lost almost half their market share because folks like me have longer memories than they think we do...while I have very little respect for the union worker, it is apparent that the union worker, assembling junk for many years, had very little respect for me, the consumer...
Why didn't they strike for better cars and better methods of quality control???...if they had any brains at all, and they do not, striking for better QC may have insured that they WERE employed by making cars better then the Japanese and maintaining market share...
But they started this "Buy American" hollow slogan, asking us to buy their crap to save our neighbor's job...when our neighbor makes a product worth buying, I will buy it...but to wave the flag and tell me to buy junk for my neighbor, tell my neighbor where to stick it...
Rather than a closed market, we have accesss to better products from overseas (now also made here)...why can't the union strike for newer tooling to make cars with closer tolerances, like Honda/Toy???...because they don't care as long as they have a job and can leave drunk on Friday, payday, and show up hung over on MOnday, with a union to protect their job...
Back in the 1960s, over 50 years ago, it was well known not to buy a car made on Monday or Friday...and that was not the fault of management...face the truth, the union planted seeds of their own destruction over half a century ago, long before NAFTA, long before the Honda/Toy invasion, and they have achieved a bumper crop in the obvious consequences...
The UAW can only look in the mirror to realize who did this to them, and, considering how many of them are hung over on Monday, that image in the mirror ain't pretty...
All I can say is wow !!!! That is so ridiculous I'm not going to comment !!!!! :confuse:
Ok, you made your case for the auto industry, but what about the other 99% of Americans who don't work in the Auto industry, and still had to put up w/ the shenanigans talked about in Rocky's excerpt???
I'd have to agree with Marsha on this topic. One personal story regarding the modern day workings of a union...
My uncle has worked in many non-union fields for more than 20 years. He recently accepted his first union job making life-saving equipment, sold to various municipalities across the country, which sell for $200K-$1 million.
As he had done at all his previous non-union jobs, he took his job seriously and worked hard throughout his shift. However, his union co-workers quickly told him that working at such a fast pace was unacceptable.
I can't recall exactly how my uncle stated it, but he said guys told him..."You work just enough to not raise eyebrows/get fired, but not hard enough to piss off your co-workers."
So from the first day, he learned that he must work at about 50% productivity level, so that he wouldn't out pace the rest of the guys and make them look bad.
It is so bad, the union guys intentionally work slow throughout the week when a truck needs to be finished, because they know management will have them work overtime and they will get paid 2x their normal salary.
According to my uncle, they could easily get the work done during normal hours, but instead hold out for the extra money.
Keep in mind that every tax-paying citizen of this country is affected by this horrible practice since every city/county must buy this equipment, with YOUR tax dollars.
If these union workers did their jobs as they should, the cost of this equipment would probably go down by 20/30/40%.
So what you are saying is the union workers should work like slaves in a sweat shop ? What's wrong with a good steady pace ???? :confuse: I've had some ergonomics training and people going balls to the wall are the ones who end up making mistakes and end up injured.
I think this is more of a personal slam towards unions than substance since statistics say unions are more productive than non-union.
I'm curious how many people actually know someone who was a union member who set out each day to just earn the largest wages possible and didn't care about the product assembly quality which they were given to build by the know-it-alls in the big house.
Marsha's opinion sounds simply ridiculous. As Judge Judy says, "If it doesn't make sense, it isn't true."
Everyone can talk about the person who clocked in at some unknown plant and then left to go build their own house. If they made so much money, they surely paid other people to build their house, e.g.
There seems to be a problem in Marsh's past with labor. I won't venture guess. But he seems to hold a lot of animosity toward some people whom he doesn't even know. Maybe Dr. Phil can help talk through some of these buried feelings...
A good steady pace is fine but as long as you are on somebody's payroll you should always give your not 50%, not 85%, not 95% but 100%. A fully trained worker should be able to perform his task at 100% without injuring himself or put his co-workers at risk.
Rocky, you really aren't helping your case by making comments like these.
A good steady pace is fine but as long as you are on somebody's payroll you should always give your not 50%, not 85%, not 95% but 100%. A fully trained worker should be able to perform his task at 100% without injuring himself or put his co-workers at risk.
Rocky, you really aren't helping your case by making comments like these.
There is a way to give 100% and not just working like a dog is one of them. How bout looking over and at what you produce instead of just running piece work to get as many out the door as possible. That is how recalls, injurys, safety issues, happen.
I think reasonable people can see and understand where I'm coming from.
A good steady pace is fine but as long as you are on somebody's payroll you should always give your not 50%, not 85%, not 95% but 100%. A fully trained worker should be able to perform his task at 100% without injuring himself or put his co-workers at risk.
Giving it your all, or 100%, does not mean going full throttle. Ask the boys over in Georgetown, Ky. how going balls to the walls is doing for the Camry???
Also, the Nissan workers in Miss.??
Far more quality control problems than usual to go along with record production.
I was working on the Verizon Fios project in RI, and we had one co-worker who went as fast as he could splicing the junctions where the fiber split off down the different roads, and the splitter hubs that distribute the fiber in the neighborhoods. I was on the crew that tested the jobs when they were done. Nobody's splices had more mistakes than his. All because he was in a rush to look like a hero, he ended up the goat.
Bob is right on Rocky. Even you can not be a revisionist of the UAW today. What he says is 100% true. That you don't recognize it - is what is ridiculous.
Were Maytag refrigerators made by union people a few years back? I have one that keeps having problems with the defrosting. I obviously don't want to buy another American brand refrigerator and pay those union guys (or nonunion guys) for having assembled a refrigerator so poorly. Actually there seems to be an engineering problem or two. I'm still troubleshooting it. I don't want to blame the engineers or purchasers who bought a poor timer setup or a poor defroster coil with thermostat control unit built in. I'll blame the assembly folk.
I'll have to buy a Japanese made refrigerator because they have 20 years of reliability. Maybe a Camry refrigerator, grin, because they have no flaws according to CR--at least until now.
Would the refrigerator union have been the URW? I believe UAW made Frigidaire; my wife made us get rid of it. It still worked perfectly but was almost 30 years old. Those earlier American brand union made products were really good when the company used quality parts and turned out a quality product; the assemblers could do a good job.
Now I see all sorts of brands owned by the same mass market company, White, Westinghouse, etc., and the parts are cheap and look it. Guess I'll have to blame the poor assembly guy.
I'll have to buy a Japanese made refrigerator because they have 20 years of reliability. Maybe a Camry refrigerator, grin.
No you'd be better off getting a BMW refrigerator because it would "handle" cooling and freezing better than any other brand. :P If you do get the Camry, refridge beware you might not hear about any recalls for 8+ years. :P
Naah. BMW frig would mean having to take it in for adjustments every 2 months after the warranty period. Same for a Volvo frig.
Would get a Honda frig but the gears would be breaking everytime I crank a shelf up or down to adjust the heights; but that'd be alright quality-wise because they'd offer to fix it as long as I bring the refrigerator back to them for service and don't use another dealer for service. Darn transmission problems.
If I get the Lexus or Acura models they are just the same parts underneath with different skin and much high price and maintenance costs when they break. But I can always sell them to the junkyard for more money because they have a higher resale value.
We spent $2500 on a Maytag bottom freezer fridge last year. I believe it was manufactured in Tennessee. The ice maker has never worked right and I had to put $400 bucks in this year because a control board died. It took a month to get the parts. Thankfully we have more than one fridge.
Absolutely pathetic in my opinion, plus Maytag wouldn't stand behind it either. Convenient that it died 1 month out of warranty.
Also our 4 year old $900 Kenmore Elite (whirlpool) washing machine shorted out and filled the whole house up with smoke. I thought it was going to burn the damn house down.
We replaced it with LG Tromm front loaders. Absolutely sweet. We'll see how they hold up. Can't be much worse than my Maytag and Kenmore.
BTW, my mom had her Maytag fridge puke a compressor in 15 mos. Ended up having to have it replaced.
I want to buy american made products. But when you spend your hard earned money on products that suck, why would I buy another from the same company. I don't care who's fault it is. I just want something to work as it should.
diesel, your heart is in the right place pal. Glad to see you want to buy american. The problem is these american company's might build here (which is becoming very rare) and when they do they use crappy parts made by the cheapest suppliers. It's really sad when old General Motors, refridgerators are still running like well oiled machines and todays crap is junk !!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
Eltralux, shut down it's plant here in Greenville, Mi. a few years back. I was heart broken because those were good paying union jobs and the refridges they made were pretty darn good.
In 2000 we purchased a new Maytag double door ice maker refrig and three years later Maytag replaced it with a new one,(side wall insulation collapsed) but they wanted us to pay 30% of the new price due to betterment. We paid the 30% & got a replacement in 2003. Three months ago that unit required a new relay costing about $100 including the service call. Where was the original relay made? Mexico! The replacement was made in USA. We've replaced all of the appliances in the kitchen since 2000 due to American craftsmanship so if the dishwasher goes, hello Bosch. :mad:
Reliability of goods is much better now, thanks to competition and improvements from these "cheap suppliers." Especially if you're considering cars- the 1960s-1970s weren't really good for reliability.
FENTON, Mo. -- Workers at Chrysler LLC's pickup truck plant in suburban St. Louis rejected a tentative four-year labor contract between the United Auto Workers and the automaker.
Roughly 1,400 of the plant's 2,100 employees voted, with about 80 percent rejecting the deal, said Jerry Dennison, president of UAW Local 136.
"It actually failed by a larger margin than I thought it would," Dennison said Thursday night after the votes were tallied.
UAW members at Chrysler's North Assembly Plant in Fenton were among the first Chrysler employees to vote on the contract. Those workers make Dodge Ram pickups.
The 2,900 members of UAW Local 110 at the nearby South Assembly Plant, which makes Chrysler Town and Country and Dodge Caravan minivans, vote Friday.
Union officials said workers were bothered by the contract's creation of "core" and "noncore" workers at the Fenton plant, with newly hired noncore workers being paid a lower hourly wage.
The contract did not specify which jobs would be designated noncore if the deal is approved, they said.
"There were people voting who didn't know if their job would be shuffled to a noncore job," said Local 136 Treasurer Glenn Kage Jr.
Meanwhile, workers at a Chrysler engine plant in Kenosha, Wis., voted overwhelmingly Thursday to approve the tentative agreement, reached Oct. 10 after a six-hour strike.
UAW Local 72 President Dan Kirk said 78 percent of workers voted for the deal.
The UAW represents about 800 workers at the Kenosha engine plant, Kirk said. The plant recently was given a new six-cylinder engine to build.
All of Chrysler's 45,000 UAW employees are expected to complete voting sometime next week.
Kirk said the national bargaining committee worked hard to bring back the best deal it could.
"We're not really happy with it, but it is what it is," Kirk said. "It's a contract we can live with."
The chairman of the UAW's national Chrysler negotiating committee is among those criticizing the tentative deal.
Bill Parker, who also is president of a local, wrote an undated "minority report" letter that urged the union's Chrysler Council to reject the agreement and return to the bargaining table.
The council, made up of presidents and other local officials from across the country, approved the deal on a voice vote Monday at a meeting in Detroit.
Parker's letter says the deal's lower tier wage scale for some entry-level employees would create divisions within the union. It also says the Chrysler deal fell short of one that General Motors Corp. workers agreed to earlier this month, including a failure to guarantee vehicle commitments to many plants beyond current products.
The votes come as UAW officials in Detroit stepped up efforts to convince the rank-and-file to approve the pact in the face of dissent by a top bargainer.
The deal closely follows a tentative agreement ratified by workers at General Motors Corp., and is expected to be used as a template for negotiations with Ford Motor Co. The union won guarantees that Chrysler will continue to build vehicles or parts at most of its U.S. plants, at least through the life of the contract.
A Chrysler spokeswoman declined comment on the future of any plants.
True. Guys who work balls-to-the-wall actually do get hurt -BADLY. For instance:
Two guys operate a steel press.
The proper proceedure is for both to lift a large piece of sheet steel, place it in the press, each hits a button: on on the left and the other on the right. The stamped part is removed by both.
Instead, these two dudes figured out a way to speed up the process. ONE guy places the sheet steel in the machine while the other guy leans over him and presses both buttons simultaneously.
What happened? The guy pressing the buttons hits them too quickly and his buddy's hands are still clutching the sheet steel. The press refuses the retract, and some other guy comes along with a 2x4 to turn a big gear on top of the press to get it to retract as some guy is screaming with his hands caught in the die. Guy loses four fingers on both hands and is permanently disabled. Non-union shop of course!
You will still see a lot of those old refrigerators soldiering on. My paternal grandfather had a Philco from the late 1940s that is still soldiering on. It's still here, he died 25 years ago. My parents had a mid-1950s Frigidaire that was replaced sometime in the mid 1990s. Several refrigerators were made by the auto manufacturers.
Frigidaire = GM Philco = Ford Kelvinator = Nash/AMC
I'm sure Chrysler made them, but I don't remember the brand. Their air conditioners were Airtemp.
Good friends bought a Bosch dishwasher and he finds it noisy and lacking in lots of ways. He's getting rid of it. He buys appliances frequently and currently has a Kelvinator 3-door where the top doors open to a wide space. Loves it. No problems. New washer dryer latest feature from some company last year. No problem.
The Maytag company was bought by Whirlpool recently and their quality should go back up. But Maytag had bought into the higher profit for management several years ago by using cheaper parts of something.
My frig probably was nonunion in one of the areas where carmarkers, foreign, are locating new plants. The defroster failed 6 months ago. I troubleshot and found the thermostat that turns on when cold to enable defrost heating did not turn back on after it opens to turn off the defrost cycle. Replaced heater coil and defrost which are a unit instead of buying separate thermostat and cutting wires. Lately it seems to have a bad contact somewhere or defrost thermostat is not turning back on. Guess what the box for heater and thermostat probably say on the --Mexico.
The timer was not the same timer as indicated by the circuit diagram for the unit nor is it the same as info on the internet indicated. It's a clock timer with 8-hour cycles instead of an electronic unit taht senses how much the doors have been open as well as time to determine when to defrost.
BTW the Haier refrigerators from China ( do chinese buy Toyota appliances) seem to work. But neighbor replaced Lennox heat pump with a cheap Haier heat pump because his HVAC buddy doing the work on the side recommended. It lasted less than 60 days. After spending almost 8 hours troubleshooting the thing he ditched it and got an American brand made in USA.
I'm still waiting for the advantage from using nonunion labor here in the cheap areas for labor where people don't know their rights. Think it might be the parts the company chose to use to build the Maytags? BTW Maytag quality should be back up. But the Maytag repairman never made a housecall here but they're not sitting in the shops anymore. But I'll bet the CEO'S and highly paid managers all took a nice golden parachute and retirement with them in the sales deal to Whirlpool. Wonder how the line workers managed? Oh, I forgot, they don't have any rights; just the CEO's and managers have rights.
The Maytag Repairman is a nervous wreck these days. He's working for minimum wage with no overtime as his job is now non-union. The telephone is ringing off the hook. He's got the thousand-yard stare and is ambivalent about answering. Either it's his Alabama Good Ole Boy bossman or his Chinese Master ready to ream him but good. He hasn't slept in five days, has a four-day beard, his once neatly pressed uniform is rumpled, dirty, torn, and stained with perspiration. He smells like sweat, cheap whiskey, and hundreds of departed cigarettes. He's been swilling coffee like it's going out of style. He's holed-up in his tiny office filled with boxes of defective parts stamped "Made in China." An angry mob outside is banging on the doors and windows shouting profanity and demanding he fix their broken washing machines and refrigerators. They're looking for blood and the poor Maytag Repairman sees no way out. His eyes well with tears as he stares at the loaded .38 caliber revolver in the half-open top right hand desk drawer. He thinks about the wife and children he'll be leaving behind in a cruel, unforgiving world...
euphonium: it is nice to see that some of us have a historical perspective based on reality, not on what we wish it was...
Imidaz: what was that phone number for Dr. Phil's show??? Basically, being surrounded by UAW and Teamsters for my decade in Detroit, it takes about, oh, 10 days for one's view of the union to become jaded, and when one gets to know many of the union members, just listen to them for about a day or so, and you will never want to buy one of their products again...you think I exaggerate, but with a less than 50% market share, I believe not only that the chickens are coming home to roost, but that realuity is slamming union folks right between the eyes, but they simply live in denial, waiting for the good old days to return like waiting for the 1960s Yankees to come back with Mantle, Maris, Ford, et al...the past is dead...
a really cool Nova II and buy one made well for a decent price. GM no longer makes cool small cars and the Koreans and Japanese do. Not a difficult one to read and decipher what a person like myself needs to do while car shopping.
My point about the '62 Nova II or SS is that GM used to make cars with cool body designs at reasonable prices. Made by union personnel, the UAW. How come GM, Ford and Chrysler aren't thinking about taking a pay cut in light of all this foreign competition? Because they've got huge credit card bills? Or because they feel they all have a bright future in making and selling vehicles against strong foreign and domestic competition.
Grabbing from your employer while the getting is good is the union way, I understand. But shouldn't this contract's demands be a tad more reasonable. Or is setting up your retirement more important than your grandson ever being able to work where you did?
Must be some truth in it Rocky. People are not buying as many cars from GM and Ford as Honda and Toyota. Sadly I switched. I wanted a solid heavy SUV. The new Denali left me cold. I don't think GM has built a rock solid truck or SUV since the 1998 strike. I don't blame the Union. I think it is just a company in total dis-array. At least the Sequoia I bought was built in Indiana. Not exactly what I wanted. It will have to do.
Quite frankly. The UAW bosses should be telling the members that they need to match the non-union wages until the Big 3 regains the lost market share. It looks to me like the UAW membership is strangling the golden goose. Not my problem. If I was in the UAW I would be screaming my head off. It is my lively hood you are killing, living in the past. They are sheep following a leader that has nothing to lose. probably has enough stashed to live quite well when the Union loses all their members.
Have not either of you guys read the news and links I and other's have put on here about the UAW-GM contract ????? :confuse:
They sold the next generation of auto workers down the river because of that mentality because they were forced to. A new UAW worker makes $14 bucks an hour, pays a large percentage portion of his health care insurance, has zero pension & health care, has a lousy 401K plan with a cap on the company match(like $1000 or $1500 a yr. I think?) What more do you want ????????????? :sick:
Gary, it's pretty easy making suggestions what <>other's should have to sacrifice and playing arm chair QB when you are sitting on top of the mountain and have for many years. I'm not mad at ya, actually happy for you.
iluv, I do feel sorry for you losing your job at Boeing, and understand you did what you had to do and got re trained in a good paying health care. Hey I respect that !!!! Boeing, is on top once again and is the "place" to work once again.
I just don't understand the both of ya'lls feelings on this issue ????? It's like these UAW folks have "given back" about everything they have worked and faught for over the years and it's still not enough or both of you, or either of you don't have any idea what the new contract details are about ???? :confuse: A new Toyota, worker will make approxiamatley $5+ bucks an hour more and have better benefits. Honda, workers make like $0.92 more an hour to start out and have better benefits.
The 401K retirement is all but worthless as how many of you could save for retirement on a lousy $14 an hour which might be your pay for the for see able future until new better paying positions open up. Those details need to be worked out I heard because GM, also won in the contract the ability to out source a good number of these jobs which would other wise be done by the $14 dollar employees. :sick:
The bottom line is until we fix all trade issues, currency manipulation, labor laws, this country will continue to regress and will spiral down like a brown trout being flushed in the toilet. :mad:
Rocky, Have you tried UPS or FED EX? They are usually hiring, especially with the holiday season starting. The pay is good and so are the benefits. Also a civil service test for policeman, fireman, postal worker, etc?? NORTSR
I have not tried UPS or FED EX. I was reminded of UPS, in fact a couple days ago by my father. I will have to go check them out. Thanx......
I have a interview Monday, for selling insurance. I have another interview lined up Wednesday doing security for the Gerald R. Ford, Job Corp. It's a $10.64 an hour job to start but they have some decent benefits. It would be enough to hold me over until something better comes along. I have future job prospects with Casino's and security with the Nuke Plant, once it goes "in house" and certain corrupted heads are chopped off.
One thing about me pal, is I will not give up trying. 80 applications, resumes, faxes, for jobs later. Competition is tough. I have even checked out the state of Wyoming (lots of decent jobs) but member's of my family are against it and feel I shouldn't totally give up on Michigan, yet. I am most happy here in Michigan, as it's home. Living in Wyoming, would be like living in the Tx, Panhandle only a lot colder in the winter. There is nothing in Wyoming. Boring !!!! Perhaps that is why Cheney, is so quiet and secretive as their was nobody to talk to outside of a goat, horse, cow, sheep, growing up !!!! :P
Yeah, I guess UAW workers should make Wal~Mart wages, however, you do get what you pay for. I don't trust a Wal~Mart worker to assemble a bicycle made of cheap Chinese parts let alone a car made of cheap Chinese parts. Heck, Toyota and Honda might catch on, "Gee, those GM guys are making $14 an hour! Shoot, maybe we should cut our guys down to $10 and do away with the 401K so we can be competitive!" Hey, I remember when $14 an hour was an excellent pay, but that was over 20 years ago. Maybe if the cost of everything regressed to what it was over 20 years ago, especially housing, everything would be cool?
UAW lobbies support as Detroit Axle, two other plants oppose contract
Two more locals on Friday defeated the four-year tentative agreement between the United Auto Workers and Chrysler LLC, in the wake of a resounding "no" vote the day before at an assembly plant in Missouri.
Workers at Detroit Axle narrowly defeated the contract by a 53.5 percent margin in a vote from Local 961 that represents about 1,430 workers at the plant. Earlier Friday, workers from Local 122 at the Chrysler Twinsburg, Ohio, stamping plant voted the contract down by a 53 percent margin. The plant represents 1,150 workers.
Some 9,500 employees at six locals nationwide were to vote on the agreement Friday, including Local 372 in Trenton. Results from some locals were not available late Friday.
The vote at Detroit Axle stunned Local 961 president Ed May.
"I was totally floored," May said Friday night following the final vote count. "For that membership to turn that down, I was appalled. To me, it was like they really don't care. Some of the membership is confused; some were misled."
Two workers at Detroit Axle on Lynch Street said the severity of the two-tier wage system was a key issue in the rejection.
On the first day of voting Thursday, the contract drew a split decision, but the "no" vote was the loudest. At the St. Louis North Assembly plant representing 2,100 workers, the contract was rejected by 81 percent of voters, while at an engine plant in Kenosha, Wis., with about 800 UAW workers, 82 percent OK'd the deal.
The rejection unsettled some of those voting in Trenton Friday.
"That took me by surprise and made me think a little bit more about how I'd vote," said Dean DeMarco, who ultimately voted "yes" for the tentative agreement. "I think we could've gotten more, but what's the point in fighting for it? So we can go on another strike? I'll take what we can get."
Two provisions of the landmark agreement are proving to be particularly troublesome for the rank and file: A two-tier wage system in which new hires in jobs not directly tied to the assembly of vehicles would be paid less; and the lack of specific product commitments for Chrysler plants.
The deal does promise up to $15 billion in new domestic investment, offer workers a $3,000 bonus, and creates a union-controlled trust fund to cover retiree health care costs.
Ratification of the contract requires a majority vote of some 45,000 Chrysler workers eligible to vote. Voting is expected to wrap up Wednesday.
On Friday, some workers stood firmly in support of their leadership and the agreement.
"The health benefits, retiree benefits and profit sharing are a good thing," said Ernest Milo, shortly after he voted for the contract at Local 961. "We are just trying to hold on to our jobs."
Still, with more contract rejections Friday, that could affect the decisions of the more than 8,800 members scheduled to vote today and Sunday, said Gary Chaison, a professor of industrial relations at Clark University in Worcester, Mass.
"You are beginning to see a groundswell against this agreement," he said. "Opposition can be a self-perpetuating force. Once one local turns it down, others will be willing to vote 'no.' "
John Hernandez, a worker at Sterling Heights Assembly Plant who will cast his ballot next week, said Friday that the Missouri vote is a wake up call for UAW leaders.
"I think the (Missouri vote) is a good thing -- it's going to shake up the international office," he said. "They'll think twice about what they push in our laps."
Hernandez said he's upset that Chrysler wouldn't say which products are coming next to many plants, including his own, while General Motors Corp. gave specific guarantees. He also said that the two-tier wage systems would split the membership.
In an unprecedented move, top UAW leadership is lobbying the rank-and-file hard for passage. UAW President Ron Gettelfinger and UAW Vice President General Holiefield this week have been visiting workers preparing to vote. And on Wednesday, Holiefield sent a memo to local union leaders asking all appointed union representatives to sign the memo endorsing the agreement. "With teamwork in the leadership and solidarity in the ranks, we will prevail and our members will be best served," Holiefield said in the memo.
Harley Shaiken, a labor professor at University of California-Berkeley, said while such direct lobbying is unusual, it's not surprising given the complexity of the deal. "They've got to sell it not on what's making workers angry, but on the alternatives they face. (Leadership) feels it did the best they could in a tough economic situation."
Michigan's top-paid corporate executives are raking in nearly double what they made in 2001 at a time when deep economic turmoil has cost tens of thousands of worker's their jobs. Here's our ranking of the most highly paid executives at Michigan's publicly traded company's.
Michigan's top-paid corporate executives are raking in nearly double what they made in 2001 at a time when deep economic turmoil has cost tens of thousands of workers their jobs.
The average compensation of the Fortunate 50 -- The Detroit News' ranking of the most highly paid executives at Michigan's publicly traded companies -- was $7.1 million in 2006, up 88 percent over 2001 or more than seven times the rate of inflation.
No. 1 on the list is Alan Mulally, who was hired away from Boeing Co. last fall by Ford Motor Co. as its new president and CEO. His compensation package -- for four months on the job in 2006 -- was worth $28.2 million, according to Ford's proxy statement filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Richard A. Manoogian, chairman and CEO of Taylor-based Masco Corp., placed second with total compensation of $17.3 million.
Corporations are required by law to make public the pay of their most highly rewarded executives via an annual filing with the SEC. Amounts posted include base salary, cash bonuses, stock awards and miscellaneous pay and perks.
The average weekly compensation of a Michigan Fortunate 50 member is 174 times that of what the average Michigan worker collected in 2006, $784.34 a week.
By contrast, Mulally's 2006 package worked out to $541,990 a week over a year, while Manoogian earned $332,560 weekly.
The widening pay divide is a sore spot for many workers in Michigan."I don't know what you tell workers that are laid off about executives at the company that are making millions and millions of dollars," said Pete Lupo, managing director of Pearl, Meyer & Partners, a New York City compensation consulting firm. "If you can go back and demonstrate their pay has a direct correlation to the performance of the company and is within the peer norms, that's the only answer.
"But it's difficult for many people to understand it because they can't relate to people being paid millions of dollars a year."
Executive compensation packages have swelled even as Michigan companies slashed 171,900 jobs from their payrolls over the past five years. Last year, 11 executives from seven Michigan public companies made $10 million or more, according to company filings. In 2001, one executive topped the $10 million mark.
Average 2006 compensation for the 50 people on this year's list was $7.1 million, with the No. 50 executive earning $2.7 million. In 2001, the average was $3.8 million, with the earner on the lowest rung making $1.85 million.
Other findings in 2006:
• Base salaries averaged $843,838, 16 percent higher than in 2001.
• Bonuses, which include both gifts and performance-based rewards, averaged $1.7 million, up 103 percent since 2001.
• The executives reaped about $1.9 million in stock rewards on average as well as $1.9 million in stock options last year.
• Executives at 18 Michigan companies made the list.
• Fifteen managers on the list worked for companies that lost money in 2006; Ford led the way with $12.7 billion in red ink.
• Twenty-one top players worked for companies that lost stock value in 2006.
Nationally known psychologist Robert R. Butterworth said anger is building among the work force over these huge executive compensation packages.
"Workers don't like it when executives are making all this money and they are being asked for wage and benefit cuts or face layoffs," said Butterworth of Los Angeles. "People don't forget these things."
Gary Wolkowicz, a 37-year veteran at Ford's Rouge plant, says top managers are "showing their greed and not being fair."
"It's outrageous that Alan Mulally is making so much money at the same time they keep asking us to accept so many cuts," he said.
Compensation experts, however, say some positive signs are emerging from the pay packages posted this year. More bonuses and stock awards are being tied to performance goals while base salaries have climbed only 16 percent.
While Michigan's economy is suffering, many of the state's larger companies are national or even global corporations. Regardless of the local climate, companies often have to compete to hire and keep top-level executives. That means offering competitive pay and benefits.
In Mulally's case, for example, $18 million of his package was reimbursement for money he left on the table by leaving Boeing.
Andrew Goldstein, central division practice leader for Watson Wyatt Worldwide, a consulting firm with offices in Southfield, said firms in crisis sometimes have to offer huge pay packages to lure new executives.
"Sometimes a distressed company or a company going through a lot of turmoil has to pay more to attract an executive," Goldstein said. "Why would an executive leave a company to take a risky job at a struggling company?
Shoot, as an executive, I wouldn't want to rake in that much dough while my company and its workers are suffering. Heck, I might forgo my pay until the company was solvent and everything was okay. It makes me look bad and also a prime target for some disgruntled employee. I wouldn't want to be so hated as to need to be chauferred around in a bulletproof car.
Comments
-Rocky
Not because of Reagan, Bush or Clinton, not because someone forced us to do so, we bought them voluntarily because they were BETTER...blame management, blame union, blame the Mayor of Detroit, but American cars were junk and any blind person could see it...
Unions have lost power because the alternative was better than their product, and they are unemployed because they thought if they just "waited it out" their bad habits would be supreme again...but no, the Japanese simply made their better cars even BETTER, and never ONCE did the UAW strike over the crap they were making, but always over wages...
Well, they got their wages, they got their benefits, and now they have lost almost half their market share because folks like me have longer memories than they think we do...while I have very little respect for the union worker, it is apparent that the union worker, assembling junk for many years, had very little respect for me, the consumer...
Why didn't they strike for better cars and better methods of quality control???...if they had any brains at all, and they do not, striking for better QC may have insured that they WERE employed by making cars better then the Japanese and maintaining market share...
But they started this "Buy American" hollow slogan, asking us to buy their crap to save our neighbor's job...when our neighbor makes a product worth buying, I will buy it...but to wave the flag and tell me to buy junk for my neighbor, tell my neighbor where to stick it...
Rather than a closed market, we have accesss to better products from overseas (now also made here)...why can't the union strike for newer tooling to make cars with closer tolerances, like Honda/Toy???...because they don't care as long as they have a job and can leave drunk on Friday, payday, and show up hung over on MOnday, with a union to protect their job...
Back in the 1960s, over 50 years ago, it was well known not to buy a car made on Monday or Friday...and that was not the fault of management...face the truth, the union planted seeds of their own destruction over half a century ago, long before NAFTA, long before the Honda/Toy invasion, and they have achieved a bumper crop in the obvious consequences...
The UAW can only look in the mirror to realize who did this to them, and, considering how many of them are hung over on Monday, that image in the mirror ain't pretty...
Short answer: they were paid not to. Longer answer here.
My uncle has worked in many non-union fields for more than 20 years. He recently accepted his first union job making life-saving equipment, sold to various municipalities across the country, which sell for $200K-$1 million.
As he had done at all his previous non-union jobs, he took his job seriously and worked hard throughout his shift. However, his union co-workers quickly told him that working at such a fast pace was unacceptable.
I can't recall exactly how my uncle stated it, but he said guys told him..."You work just enough to not raise eyebrows/get fired, but not hard enough to piss off your co-workers."
So from the first day, he learned that he must work at about 50% productivity level, so that he wouldn't out pace the rest of the guys and make them look bad.
It is so bad, the union guys intentionally work slow throughout the week when a truck needs to be finished, because they know management will have them work overtime and they will get paid 2x their normal salary.
According to my uncle, they could easily get the work done during normal hours, but instead hold out for the extra money.
Keep in mind that every tax-paying citizen of this country is affected by this horrible practice since every city/county must buy this equipment, with YOUR tax dollars.
If these union workers did their jobs as they should, the cost of this equipment would probably go down by 20/30/40%.
When Reagan showed them the door, even those of us who didn't like him cheered wildly.
There's less here than meets the eye.
During the early postwar years, the UAW was striking for higher wages. The car companies claimed that raising wages would raise prices. The union claimed that this was not necessarily true, and demanded to see the car makers' books. In particular, the union struck GM in 1946 for months, seeking higher wages. GM management stood its ground. It also refused to open its books to the union.
The union WAS NOT striking for better quality control methods, less badge engineering or smaller, more fuel-efficient models, no matter what modern-day revisionists claim. It had no particular expertise in the areas of product planning, styling or engineering (aside from production engineering) in those days, and still doesn't today.
The union wasn't interested in those areas then, and still really isn't today. The UAW wanted more pay and benefits, but was sensitive to charges that the settlements were driving up the prices of new cars. Remember, in the late 1940s and early 1950s, despite a prosperous economy, memories of the Great Depression were still vivid, and even a small price increase in new cars seemed pretty substantial to people accustomed to pinching every penny.
The union wanted higher wages and benefits; the company claimed that this would result in higher car prices. The union wanted the companies - particularly GM - to pledge not to raise car prices in response to a rise in wages. GM said "no." GM wanted the union to "butt out" regarding the prices of new cars.
In the lush postwar market, GM gave the union generous pay and benefits, and the union stopped demanding that the company not raise prices in response to each wage settlement. GM knew that it could afford to pass at least some price increases on to customers. It also knew that the generous settlements seriously hurt the independents and, as events would prove, even Chrysler, as they had to spread increased costs over a much smaller production base. They couldn't raise their prices as much as GM (and, to a lesser extent, Ford), which could spread costs over a much larger number of vehicles.
Of course, in the 21st century, competition HAS de-linked union pay and benefits from the price of cars. The domestics can no longer automatically raise the prices of cars to cover higher costs, as they did through the early 1980s. This is part of the reason they are facing bankruptcy.
The above is interesting because I remember those days when new cars were in such demand, the dealers had waiting lists of future customers. People would be on four different lists like Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, & Chrysler and often the dealers would accept up to $500 to place a name at the head of the list. I remember knowing of many local people who paid a premium for the first new 1942 cars produced after The War. It wasn't until 1949 that production caught up with demand. Some of the earliest post war cars arrived without bumpers and hubcaps as chrome was still scarce and the dealers installed wood 2X4's (bumpers)because demand was so great. They weren't pinching pennies around the NW. They wanted their new car and they wanted it now!
And those charges probably kept a fair number of people out of the market completely. Remember that even $100 was a lot of money in those days.
Dad told stories about slipping a car salesman a couple of hundred bucks under the table to pry loose a new '46 Plymouth.
Dad told stories about slipping a car salesman a couple of
Doesn't say much for salesmen even in those days, does it?
My dad talked about the 30 mph speed limit to conserve fuel and tires. He talked about ratio coupons.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not because of Reagan, Bush or Clinton, not because someone forced us to do so, we bought them voluntarily because they were BETTER...blame management, blame union, blame the Mayor of Detroit, but American cars were junk and any blind person could see it...
Unions have lost power because the alternative was better than their product, and they are unemployed because they thought if they just "waited it out" their bad habits would be supreme again...but no, the Japanese simply made their better cars even BETTER, and never ONCE did the UAW strike over the crap they were making, but always over wages...
Well, they got their wages, they got their benefits, and now they have lost almost half their market share because folks like me have longer memories than they think we do...while I have very little respect for the union worker, it is apparent that the union worker, assembling junk for many years, had very little respect for me, the consumer...
Why didn't they strike for better cars and better methods of quality control???...if they had any brains at all, and they do not, striking for better QC may have insured that they WERE employed by making cars better then the Japanese and maintaining market share...
But they started this "Buy American" hollow slogan, asking us to buy their crap to save our neighbor's job...when our neighbor makes a product worth buying, I will buy it...but to wave the flag and tell me to buy junk for my neighbor, tell my neighbor where to stick it...
Rather than a closed market, we have accesss to better products from overseas (now also made here)...why can't the union strike for newer tooling to make cars with closer tolerances, like Honda/Toy???...because they don't care as long as they have a job and can leave drunk on Friday, payday, and show up hung over on MOnday, with a union to protect their job...
Back in the 1960s, over 50 years ago, it was well known not to buy a car made on Monday or Friday...and that was not the fault of management...face the truth, the union planted seeds of their own destruction over half a century ago, long before NAFTA, long before the Honda/Toy invasion, and they have achieved a bumper crop in the obvious consequences...
The UAW can only look in the mirror to realize who did this to them, and, considering how many of them are hung over on Monday, that image in the mirror ain't pretty...
All I can say is wow !!!! That is so ridiculous I'm not going to comment !!!!! :confuse:
-Rocky
My uncle has worked in many non-union fields for more than 20 years. He recently accepted his first union job making life-saving equipment, sold to various municipalities across the country, which sell for $200K-$1 million.
As he had done at all his previous non-union jobs, he took his job seriously and worked hard throughout his shift. However, his union co-workers quickly told him that working at such a fast pace was unacceptable.
I can't recall exactly how my uncle stated it, but he said guys told him..."You work just enough to not raise eyebrows/get fired, but not hard enough to piss off your co-workers."
So from the first day, he learned that he must work at about 50% productivity level, so that he wouldn't out pace the rest of the guys and make them look bad.
It is so bad, the union guys intentionally work slow throughout the week when a truck needs to be finished, because they know management will have them work overtime and they will get paid 2x their normal salary.
According to my uncle, they could easily get the work done during normal hours, but instead hold out for the extra money.
Keep in mind that every tax-paying citizen of this country is affected by this horrible practice since every city/county must buy this equipment, with YOUR tax dollars.
If these union workers did their jobs as they should, the cost of this equipment would probably go down by 20/30/40%.
So what you are saying is the union workers should work like slaves in a sweat shop ? What's wrong with a good steady pace ???? :confuse: I've had some ergonomics training and people going balls to the wall are the ones who end up making mistakes and end up injured.
I think this is more of a personal slam towards unions than substance since statistics say unions are more productive than non-union.
-Rocky
Marsha's opinion sounds simply ridiculous. As Judge Judy says, "If it doesn't make sense, it isn't true."
Everyone can talk about the person who clocked in at some unknown plant and then left to go build their own house. If they made so much money, they surely paid other people to build their house, e.g.
There seems to be a problem in Marsh's past with labor. I won't venture guess. But he seems to hold a lot of animosity toward some people whom he doesn't even know. Maybe Dr. Phil can help talk through some of these buried feelings...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky, you really aren't helping your case by making comments like these.
Rocky, you really aren't helping your case by making comments like these.
There is a way to give 100% and not just working like a dog is one of them.
I think reasonable people can see and understand where I'm coming from.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Giving it your all, or 100%, does not mean going full throttle. Ask the boys over in Georgetown, Ky. how going balls to the walls is doing for the Camry???
Also, the Nissan workers in Miss.??
Far more quality control problems than usual to go along with record production.
I was working on the Verizon Fios project in RI, and we had one co-worker who went as fast as he could splicing the junctions where the fiber split off down the different roads, and the splitter hubs that distribute the fiber in the neighborhoods. I was on the crew that tested the jobs when they were done. Nobody's splices had more mistakes than his. All because he was in a rush to look like a hero, he ended up the goat.
-Rocky
I'll have to buy a Japanese made refrigerator because they have 20 years of reliability. Maybe a Camry refrigerator, grin, because they have no flaws according to CR--at least until now.
Would the refrigerator union have been the URW? I believe UAW made Frigidaire; my wife made us get rid of it. It still worked perfectly but was almost 30 years old. Those earlier American brand union made products were really good when the company used quality parts and turned out a quality product; the assemblers could do a good job.
Now I see all sorts of brands owned by the same mass market company, White, Westinghouse, etc., and the parts are cheap and look it.
Guess I'll have to blame the poor assembly guy.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No you'd be better off getting a BMW refrigerator because it would "handle" cooling and freezing better than any other brand. :P If you do get the Camry, refridge beware you might not hear about any recalls for 8+ years. :P
-Rocky
Would get a Honda frig but the gears would be breaking everytime I crank a shelf up or down to adjust the heights; but that'd be alright quality-wise because they'd offer to fix it as long as I bring the refrigerator back to them for service and don't use another dealer for service. Darn transmission problems.
If I get the Lexus or Acura models they are just the same parts underneath with different skin and much high price and maintenance costs when they break. But I can always sell them to the junkyard for more money because they have a higher resale value.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
Absolutely pathetic in my opinion, plus Maytag wouldn't stand behind it either. Convenient that it died 1 month out of warranty.
Also our 4 year old $900 Kenmore Elite (whirlpool) washing machine shorted out and filled the whole house up with smoke. I thought it was going to burn the damn house down.
We replaced it with LG Tromm front loaders. Absolutely sweet. We'll see how they hold up. Can't be much worse than my Maytag and Kenmore.
BTW, my mom had her Maytag fridge puke a compressor in 15 mos. Ended up having to have it replaced.
I want to buy american made products. But when you spend your hard earned money on products that suck, why would I buy another from the same company. I don't care who's fault it is. I just want something to work as it should.
Eltralux, shut down it's plant here in Greenville, Mi. a few years back. I was heart broken because those were good paying union jobs and the refridges they made were pretty darn good.
-Rocky
Roughly 1,400 of the plant's 2,100 employees voted, with about 80 percent rejecting the deal, said Jerry Dennison, president of UAW Local 136.
"It actually failed by a larger margin than I thought it would," Dennison said Thursday night after the votes were tallied.
UAW members at Chrysler's North Assembly Plant in Fenton were among the first Chrysler employees to vote on the contract. Those workers make Dodge Ram pickups.
The 2,900 members of UAW Local 110 at the nearby South Assembly Plant, which makes Chrysler Town and Country and Dodge Caravan minivans, vote Friday.
Union officials said workers were bothered by the contract's creation of "core" and "noncore" workers at the Fenton plant, with newly hired noncore workers being paid a lower hourly wage.
The contract did not specify which jobs would be designated noncore if the deal is approved, they said.
"There were people voting who didn't know if their job would be shuffled to a noncore job," said Local 136 Treasurer Glenn Kage Jr.
Meanwhile, workers at a Chrysler engine plant in Kenosha, Wis., voted overwhelmingly Thursday to approve the tentative agreement, reached Oct. 10 after a six-hour strike.
UAW Local 72 President Dan Kirk said 78 percent of workers voted for the deal.
The UAW represents about 800 workers at the Kenosha engine plant, Kirk said. The plant recently was given a new six-cylinder engine to build.
All of Chrysler's 45,000 UAW employees are expected to complete voting sometime next week.
Kirk said the national bargaining committee worked hard to bring back the best deal it could.
"We're not really happy with it, but it is what it is," Kirk said. "It's a contract we can live with."
The chairman of the UAW's national Chrysler negotiating committee is among those criticizing the tentative deal.
Bill Parker, who also is president of a local, wrote an undated "minority report" letter that urged the union's Chrysler Council to reject the agreement and return to the bargaining table.
The council, made up of presidents and other local officials from across the country, approved the deal on a voice vote Monday at a meeting in Detroit.
Parker's letter says the deal's lower tier wage scale for some entry-level employees would create divisions within the union. It also says the Chrysler deal fell short of one that General Motors Corp. workers agreed to earlier this month, including a failure to guarantee vehicle commitments to many plants beyond current products.
The votes come as UAW officials in Detroit stepped up efforts to convince the rank-and-file to approve the pact in the face of dissent by a top bargainer.
The deal closely follows a tentative agreement ratified by workers at General Motors Corp., and is expected to be used as a template for negotiations with Ford Motor Co. The union won guarantees that Chrysler will continue to build vehicles or parts at most of its U.S. plants, at least through the life of the contract.
A Chrysler spokeswoman declined comment on the future of any plants.
http://www.woodtv.com/global/story.asp?s=7235560
-Rocky
Two guys operate a steel press.
The proper proceedure is for both to lift a large piece of sheet steel, place it in the press, each hits a button: on on the left and the other on the right. The stamped part is removed by both.
Instead, these two dudes figured out a way to speed up the process. ONE guy places the sheet steel in the machine while the other guy leans over him and presses both buttons simultaneously.
What happened? The guy pressing the buttons hits them too quickly and his buddy's hands are still clutching the sheet steel. The press refuses the retract, and some other guy comes along with a 2x4 to turn a big gear on top of the press to get it to retract as some guy is screaming with his hands caught in the die. Guy loses four fingers on both hands and is permanently disabled. Non-union shop of course!
Frigidaire = GM
Philco = Ford
Kelvinator = Nash/AMC
I'm sure Chrysler made them, but I don't remember the brand. Their air conditioners were Airtemp.
Good friends bought a Bosch dishwasher and he finds it noisy and lacking in lots of ways. He's getting rid of it. He buys appliances frequently and currently has a Kelvinator 3-door where the top doors open to a wide space. Loves it. No problems. New washer dryer latest feature from some company last year. No problem.
The Maytag company was bought by Whirlpool recently and their quality should go back up. But Maytag had bought into the higher profit for management several years ago by using cheaper parts of something.
My frig probably was nonunion in one of the areas where carmarkers, foreign, are locating new plants. The defroster failed 6 months ago. I troubleshot and found the thermostat that turns on when cold to enable defrost heating did not turn back on after it opens to turn off the defrost cycle. Replaced heater coil and defrost which are a unit instead of buying separate thermostat and cutting wires. Lately it seems to have a bad contact somewhere or defrost thermostat is not turning back on. Guess what the box for heater and thermostat probably say on the --Mexico.
The timer was not the same timer as indicated by the circuit diagram for the unit nor is it the same as info on the internet indicated. It's a clock timer with 8-hour cycles instead of an electronic unit taht senses how much the doors have been open as well as time to determine when to defrost.
BTW the Haier refrigerators from China ( do chinese buy Toyota appliances) seem to work. But neighbor replaced Lennox heat pump with a cheap Haier heat pump because his HVAC buddy doing the work on the side recommended. It lasted less than 60 days. After spending almost 8 hours troubleshooting the thing he ditched it and got an American brand made in USA.
I'm still waiting for the advantage from using nonunion labor here in the cheap areas for labor where people don't know their rights. Think it might be the parts the company chose to use to build the Maytags? BTW Maytag quality should be back up. But the Maytag repairman never made a housecall here but they're not sitting in the shops anymore. But I'll bet the CEO'S and highly paid managers all took a nice golden parachute and retirement with them in the sales deal to Whirlpool. Wonder how the line workers managed? Oh, I forgot, they don't have any rights; just the CEO's and managers have rights.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Let's slide our way back to the UAW and leave the refrigerator-making for the allaboutrefrigerators.com forums.
Imidaz: what was that phone number for Dr. Phil's show???
Basically, being surrounded by UAW and Teamsters for my decade in Detroit, it takes about, oh, 10 days for one's view of the union to become jaded, and when one gets to know many of the union members, just listen to them for about a day or so, and you will never want to buy one of their products again...you think I exaggerate, but with a less than 50% market share, I believe not only that the chickens are coming home to roost, but that realuity is slamming union folks right between the eyes, but they simply live in denial, waiting for the good old days to return like waiting for the 1960s Yankees to come back with Mantle, Maris, Ford, et al...the past is dead...
My point about the '62 Nova II or SS is that GM used to make cars with cool body designs at reasonable prices. Made by union personnel, the UAW. How come GM, Ford and Chrysler aren't thinking about taking a pay cut in light of all this foreign competition? Because they've got huge credit card bills? Or because they feel they all have a bright future in making and selling vehicles against strong foreign and domestic competition.
Grabbing from your employer while the getting is good is the union way, I understand. But shouldn't this contract's demands be a tad more reasonable. Or is setting up your retirement more important than your grandson ever being able to work where you did?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That is so ridiculous I'm not going to comment
Must be some truth in it Rocky. People are not buying as many cars from GM and Ford as Honda and Toyota. Sadly I switched. I wanted a solid heavy SUV. The new Denali left me cold. I don't think GM has built a rock solid truck or SUV since the 1998 strike. I don't blame the Union. I think it is just a company in total dis-array. At least the Sequoia I bought was built in Indiana. Not exactly what I wanted. It will have to do.
They sold the next generation of auto workers down the river because of that mentality because they were forced to. A new UAW worker makes $14 bucks an hour, pays a large percentage portion of his health care insurance, has zero pension & health care, has a lousy 401K plan with a cap on the company match(like $1000 or $1500 a yr. I think?)
What more do you want ????????????? :sick:
Gary, it's pretty easy making suggestions what <>other's should have to sacrifice and playing arm chair QB when you are sitting on top of the mountain and have for many years. I'm not mad at ya, actually happy for you.
iluv, I do feel sorry for you losing your job at Boeing, and understand you did what you had to do and got re trained in a good paying health care. Hey I respect that !!!!
I just don't understand the both of ya'lls feelings on this issue ????? It's like these UAW folks have "given back" about everything they have worked and faught for over the years and it's still not enough or both of you, or either of you don't have any idea what the new contract details are about ???? :confuse:
A new Toyota, worker will make approxiamatley $5+ bucks an hour more and have better benefits. Honda, workers make like $0.92 more an hour to start out and have better benefits.
The 401K retirement is all but worthless as how many of you could save for retirement on a lousy $14 an hour which might be your pay for the for see able future until new better paying positions open up. Those details need to be worked out I heard because GM, also won in the contract the ability to out source a good number of these jobs which would other wise be done by the $14 dollar employees. :sick:
The bottom line is until we fix all trade issues, currency manipulation, labor laws, this country will continue to regress and will spiral down like a brown trout being flushed in the toilet. :mad:
-Rocky
Have you tried UPS or FED EX? They are usually hiring, especially with the holiday season starting. The pay is good and so are the benefits. Also a civil service test for policeman, fireman, postal worker, etc??
NORTSR
I have a interview Monday, for selling insurance. I have another interview lined up Wednesday doing security for the Gerald R. Ford, Job Corp. It's a $10.64 an hour job to start but they have some decent benefits. It would be enough to hold me over until something better comes along. I have future job prospects with Casino's and security with the Nuke Plant, once it goes "in house" and certain corrupted heads are chopped off.
One thing about me pal, is I will not give up trying. 80 applications, resumes, faxes, for jobs later. Competition is tough. I have even checked out the state of Wyoming (lots of decent jobs) but member's of my family are against it and feel I shouldn't totally give up on Michigan, yet. I am most happy here in Michigan, as it's home. Living in Wyoming, would be like living in the Tx, Panhandle only a lot colder in the winter. There is nothing in Wyoming. Boring !!!! Perhaps that is why Cheney, is so quiet and secretive as their was nobody to talk to outside of a goat, horse, cow, sheep, growing up !!!! :P
-Rocky
Agree with ya pal !!!! However that scenario isn't likely is it ? :surprise:
Lemko, the politics forum is heating up if ya get time I'd like to see lemko's $0.02 worth on the subjects we are talking about.
-Rocky
Two more locals on Friday defeated the four-year tentative agreement between the United Auto Workers and Chrysler LLC, in the wake of a resounding "no" vote the day before at an assembly plant in Missouri.
Workers at Detroit Axle narrowly defeated the contract by a 53.5 percent margin in a vote from Local 961 that represents about 1,430 workers at the plant. Earlier Friday, workers from Local 122 at the Chrysler Twinsburg, Ohio, stamping plant voted the contract down by a 53 percent margin. The plant represents 1,150 workers.
Some 9,500 employees at six locals nationwide were to vote on the agreement Friday, including Local 372 in Trenton. Results from some locals were not available late Friday.
The vote at Detroit Axle stunned Local 961 president Ed May.
"I was totally floored," May said Friday night following the final vote count. "For that membership to turn that down, I was appalled. To me, it was like they really don't care. Some of the membership is confused; some were misled."
Two workers at Detroit Axle on Lynch Street said the severity of the two-tier wage system was a key issue in the rejection.
On the first day of voting Thursday, the contract drew a split decision, but the "no" vote was the loudest. At the St. Louis North Assembly plant representing 2,100 workers, the contract was rejected by 81 percent of voters, while at an engine plant in Kenosha, Wis., with about 800 UAW workers, 82 percent OK'd the deal.
The rejection unsettled some of those voting in Trenton Friday.
"That took me by surprise and made me think a little bit more about how I'd vote," said Dean DeMarco, who ultimately voted "yes" for the tentative agreement. "I think we could've gotten more, but what's the point in fighting for it? So we can go on another strike? I'll take what we can get."
Two provisions of the landmark agreement are proving to be particularly troublesome for the rank and file: A two-tier wage system in which new hires in jobs not directly tied to the assembly of vehicles would be paid less; and the lack of specific product commitments for Chrysler plants.
The deal does promise up to $15 billion in new domestic investment, offer workers a $3,000 bonus, and creates a union-controlled trust fund to cover retiree health care costs.
Ratification of the contract requires a majority vote of some 45,000 Chrysler workers eligible to vote. Voting is expected to wrap up Wednesday.
On Friday, some workers stood firmly in support of their leadership and the agreement.
"The health benefits, retiree benefits and profit sharing are a good thing," said Ernest Milo, shortly after he voted for the contract at Local 961. "We are just trying to hold on to our jobs."
Still, with more contract rejections Friday, that could affect the decisions of the more than 8,800 members scheduled to vote today and Sunday, said Gary Chaison, a professor of industrial relations at Clark University in Worcester, Mass.
"You are beginning to see a groundswell against this agreement," he said. "Opposition can be a self-perpetuating force. Once one local turns it down, others will be willing to vote 'no.' "
John Hernandez, a worker at Sterling Heights Assembly Plant who will cast his ballot next week, said Friday that the Missouri vote is a wake up call for UAW leaders.
"I think the (Missouri vote) is a good thing -- it's going to shake up the international office," he said. "They'll think twice about what they push in our laps."
Hernandez said he's upset that Chrysler wouldn't say which products are coming next to many plants, including his own, while General Motors Corp. gave specific guarantees. He also said that the two-tier wage systems would split the membership.
In an unprecedented move, top UAW leadership is lobbying the rank-and-file hard for passage. UAW President Ron Gettelfinger and UAW Vice President General Holiefield this week have been visiting workers preparing to vote. And on Wednesday, Holiefield sent a memo to local union leaders asking all appointed union representatives to sign the memo endorsing the agreement. "With teamwork in the leadership and solidarity in the ranks, we will prevail and our members will be best served," Holiefield said in the memo.
Harley Shaiken, a labor professor at University of California-Berkeley, said while such direct lobbying is unusual, it's not surprising given the complexity of the deal. "They've got to sell it not on what's making workers angry, but on the alternatives they face. (Leadership) feels it did the best they could in a tough economic situation."
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071020/AUTO01/710200338/1148- /rss25
-Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070504/BIZ/70503001#
-Rocky
P.S. If Amway, wasn't a private company certainly Van Andel & DeVos, would be at the top !!!!!
P.S.S. Click on the link above and see just how starving Wagoner, Ford, Mulally, and other auto executives really are !!!!! :surprise:
Michigan's top-paid corporate executives are raking in nearly double what they made in 2001 at a time when deep economic turmoil has cost tens of thousands of workers their jobs.
The average compensation of the Fortunate 50 -- The Detroit News' ranking of the most highly paid executives at Michigan's publicly traded companies -- was $7.1 million in 2006, up 88 percent over 2001 or more than seven times the rate of inflation.
No. 1 on the list is Alan Mulally, who was hired away from Boeing Co. last fall by Ford Motor Co. as its new president and CEO. His compensation package -- for four months on the job in 2006 -- was worth $28.2 million, according to Ford's proxy statement filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Richard A. Manoogian, chairman and CEO of Taylor-based Masco Corp., placed second with total compensation of $17.3 million.
Corporations are required by law to make public the pay of their most highly rewarded executives via an annual filing with the SEC. Amounts posted include base salary, cash bonuses, stock awards and miscellaneous pay and perks.
The average weekly compensation of a Michigan Fortunate 50 member is 174 times that of what the average Michigan worker collected in 2006, $784.34 a week.
By contrast, Mulally's 2006 package worked out to $541,990 a week over a year, while Manoogian earned $332,560 weekly.
The widening pay divide is a sore spot for many workers in Michigan."I don't know what you tell workers that are laid off about executives at the company that are making millions and millions of dollars," said Pete Lupo, managing director of Pearl, Meyer & Partners, a New York City compensation consulting firm. "If you can go back and demonstrate their pay has a direct correlation to the performance of the company and is within the peer norms, that's the only answer.
"But it's difficult for many people to understand it because they can't relate to people being paid millions of dollars a year."
Executive compensation packages have swelled even as Michigan companies slashed 171,900 jobs from their payrolls over the past five years. Last year, 11 executives from seven Michigan public companies made $10 million or more, according to company filings. In 2001, one executive topped the $10 million mark.
Average 2006 compensation for the 50 people on this year's list was $7.1 million, with the No. 50 executive earning $2.7 million. In 2001, the average was $3.8 million, with the earner on the lowest rung making $1.85 million.
Other findings in 2006:
• Base salaries averaged $843,838, 16 percent higher than in 2001.
• Bonuses, which include both gifts and performance-based rewards, averaged $1.7 million, up 103 percent since 2001.
• The executives reaped about $1.9 million in stock rewards on average as well as $1.9 million in stock options last year.
• Executives at 18 Michigan companies made the list.
• Fifteen managers on the list worked for companies that lost money in 2006; Ford led the way with $12.7 billion in red ink.
• Twenty-one top players worked for companies that lost stock value in 2006.
Nationally known psychologist Robert R. Butterworth said anger is building among the work force over these huge executive compensation packages.
"Workers don't like it when executives are making all this money and they are being asked for wage and benefit cuts or face layoffs," said Butterworth of Los Angeles. "People don't forget these things."
Gary Wolkowicz, a 37-year veteran at Ford's Rouge plant, says top managers are "showing their greed and not being fair."
"It's outrageous that Alan Mulally is making so much money at the same time they keep asking us to accept so many cuts," he said.
Compensation experts, however, say some positive signs are emerging from the pay packages posted this year. More bonuses and stock awards are being tied to performance goals while base salaries have climbed only 16 percent.
While Michigan's economy is suffering, many of the state's larger companies are national or even global corporations. Regardless of the local climate, companies often have to compete to hire and keep top-level executives. That means offering competitive pay and benefits.
In Mulally's case, for example, $18 million of his package was reimbursement for money he left on the table by leaving Boeing.
Andrew Goldstein, central division practice leader for Watson Wyatt Worldwide, a consulting firm with offices in Southfield, said firms in crisis sometimes have to offer huge pay packages to lure new executives.
"Sometimes a distressed company or a company going through a lot of turmoil has to pay more to attract an executive," Goldstein said. "Why would an executive leave a company to take a risky job at a struggling company?
"It's pay, pay and more pay."
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070504/BIZ/705040409
-Rocky
-Rocky