That is why you, Rocky and I are not in that picture. They are not really worried about the health of the company. They answer to the board of directors. They are more interested in the stock price. Notice GM stock went up while profits are in the toilet. Makes the stock options the bulk of the package. Make the stock look good, to heck with the profits. Of course the employees are as always, pawns.
They sold the next generation of auto workers down the river because of that mentality because they were forced to. A new UAW worker makes $14 bucks an hour, pays a large percentage portion of his health care insurance, has zero pension & health care, has a lousy 401K plan with a cap on the company match(like $1000 or $1500 a yr. I think?) What more do you want ?????????????
If $14 per hour is the starting pay at GM's competition Honda, then what do you expect? Remember the ill fated grocery worker's strike and subsequent lockout in CA. After months of being on strike they got just what Von's, Ralph's & Albertson's offered in the beginning. Grocery clerks now start at minimum wage $6.75 per hour. Some stores are having problems finding workers as you can flip burgers and make $8 per hour.
If $14 per hour is the starting pay at GM's competition Honda, then what do you expect?
Not much as the UAW and GM's hands are tied because of un fair and un free trade from global competition. :mad:
Remember the ill fated grocery worker's strike and subsequent lockout in CA. After months of being on strike they got just what Von's, Ralph's & Albertson's offered in the beginning. Grocery clerks now start at minimum wage $6.75 per hour.
OMG, you couldn't afford to pay rent on a card board box in Compton, let alone a efficiency apartment on those wages. :surprise:
Some stores are having problems finding workers as you can flip burgers and make $8 per hour.
So Arnie, has illegal aliens working in the stores while the teens work the burger flipping jobs ? What a state !!!! :confuse:
Minimum wage jobs were never meant as main bread winner wages. Those jobs are usually filled by teens, and secondary wage earners. The current $7.50 per hour is plenty for a high school kid living at home. You have admitted the last time you worked for minimum wage you were still a teenager. San Diego is currently at about 4% unemployment. Even the most menial jobs are paying more than minimum wage. That is in spite of the influx of illegal aliens. Who is going to mow the lawns and clean homes? Just as an example. When we started moving we were going to hire Merry Maids to clean our new home before we started moving in. They charge $193 for two people for 2 hours. That is a far cry from $7.50 per hour. Like I said at the beginning of this the minimum wage bill has had very little affect on the working man. It did nothing to help the Union situation. It did not address the biggest problem for the worker today. That is Part Time work.
PS We cleaned the house ourselves. I'll be danged if I am going to pay $48.25 per hour for house cleaning. That is almost UAW wages.
UAW and GM's hands are tied because of un fair and un free trade from global competition.
I dare say that most of the posters here will say that GM and the UAW are as much at fault for our being pushed into the global market as any other entities. Both by greed.
I dare say that most of the posters here will say that GM and the UAW are as much at fault for our being pushed into the global market as any other entities. Both by greed.
Dare I say that above post is coming from somebody who made $38 bucks an hour. :confuse:
I'll be danged if I am going to pay $48.25 per hour for house cleaning.
Isn't that the retail price (what you pay Merry Maids)?? I'll bet the Mexicans who'd have shown up at the door wouldn't have made much more than minimum.
BTW, Rocky, I notice all we hear from those anti-union guys are crickets when the topic turns to executive pay.
They don't seem to realize that with all that money they're throwing at one another, they also throw that kind of money at lobbyists (who are usually retired execs)to lobby Congress for rules and laws in their favor. Thats OK, but if a UNION dares do the same.....WAAAAAAAAH THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!! BOOO HOOOO
I take issue with your last post...while I hardly agree with rocky on anything (except that Michigan winters can be cold, just like Wyoming...yes, that is why Cheney is so quiet, as there was no one to talk to growing up except the bears and the elk), I am also upset at CEO compensation...not at the ratio of compensation to worker pay, but the fact that they make millions while the company loses money...even the capitalist that I am (and rocky couldn't be if he wanted to...:):):)...) thinks that it ought to be similar to the Iaccoca model in the early 1980s...$1.00 salary with excellent stock options that are tied to PROFITABILITY, not simply the stock price on a short-sighted quarterly basis...
If the chief exec does right and returns the company to profits with better products or greater (profitable) volume of current products, then there should a bonus waiting for him/her in the form of stock to sell, but ONLY WHEN PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN ACHIEVED...If the company is profitable, then, by definition, money should be flowing, folks are getting paid, and the stock should rise because the company is better, not because of some gimmick...
I may feel different if the actual company founder was highly paid, simply because it IS his/her company...but I have made the point before (I get confused between topics like "politics" and "UAW" and "buying American cars", so I may be cross-posting) that CEOs brought in from another company (Mullaly-Boeing) are not the true capitalists, but simply a different level of hired help...
It does sicken me to think that I may agree with Rocky on some of these mini-topics, esp since I consider his politics so left-wing he could teach Karl Marx a thing or two about leftist politics...but, stranger things have happened, like UFOs and religious figures showing up in fast food sandwiches...:):):):):):)..... :shades: :P
There are openings for qualified people willing to spend 8 months per year at minus 40 degrees. By the way. We were not making nearly what the BP non union technicians make per year in Prudhoe Bay. Most were over $125k per year. Those awful capitalist oil companies have very good wages and benefits. They also have rules which you may find offensive. So you have to decide what is and is not important in your life. Sounds like having fun is more important than a good job.
I am not sure what all that has to do with the greed of the UAW employees and the incompetent, greedy management at GM.
There has been a lot of abuse with CEO compensation over the last 15 years for sure. That we agree on. I am pleased that Rocky has opinions and some knowledge of the world around him, even if it is misdirected. So many young people his age do not know the vice presidents name or anyone running for President. It is a result of our horrible education system that is controlled by Washington DC. Getting rid of the department of education would be a giant step forward in returning states rights.
I can see where a UAW member working for GM would be upset at the compensation given to the executives. If they were not so enslaved to the UAW they would just leave and move to some other place. It is not easy to do. But millions of Americans have had to do just that to survive. The UAW members have had a long joyful ride and it is about over. The smart ones saved money when it was flowing and didn't buy everything on credit.
Yeah, but what if Merry Maids not only cleaned your house, but detailed it? Your bathroom could be ready for the Councours d'Elegance! Heck, if I were planning an elegant party at my house and usually lived as a dirty slob too lazy to do housekeeping, I'd hire them.
You mentioned the food was good up in Prudhoe Bay. What did you guys eat Polar Bear, Seal, Penguins ???? :P:P:P
Why did the non-union make more than you ???? Do you think the oil company's paid that much out of the kindness of their hearts ???? Do you think it was like Toyota, and hadto keep the workers happy enough so they won't organize ????
I obviously can't make a accurate judgement on the topic but my gut feeling based on witnessing other fields most notably the automobile sector I would say they were living off of y'alls union shirt tails. They might of made a few bucks more than you but did they have the teamster benefits ?????? :surprise:
bee is comparing apples to pineapples. Shouldn't be done. They have a lot more responsibility than the average worker...they have to turn a profit. What does that mean for Chrysler owned by Cerberus, though? Since they aren't owned by the public in shares does that mean they can slack away and not worry about making the new Dodge Hornet made by Chery of China competently?
Of course not! Now, with GM a lot of us realize they've made more mistakes than Britney Spears in a Mercedes. But, they let so much time go by(you ought to be thinking about the 70's, 80's, 90's and the first 5 years of the 2000's here) before thinking about small rigs that would be appealing to Americans to buy, about making decent mid-size offerings, etc., that the Japanese and even the Koreans have overtook them and now they're playing catch-up games.
In the meantime the UAW members continue to pant down these contract negotiations like they are their saving grace, when, a different product is the answer and a different mindset worn by same is a big part of the answer. Does GM management need to worry about everyone striking or do they need team players showing up that sincerely want to help build better rigs! Yes! Gettin' while the getting's bad?
It would be different if GM was sitting pretty on top of the automotive world right now. We loved our Christmas bonuses in December at Boeing and I have happy memories heading to the mall with a tad extra to blow. But GM is playing catch-up and save our hide!
Really, long-timers and retirees should seriously be taking benefit cuts in a 20-35% manner right now. Not strutting their Kobe Bryant stuff and slam-dunking on their own management.
I guess I have a viewpoint that won't seem to change, rockford fosgate. Just the way it is.
I do want you to find suitable employment for yourself soon, man. And yes, this is a great time to look for work at Boeing's.
The oil companies had great pension plans, health care and pay scales. Not all departments were non-union. They had both in the field. I don't think unions were of particular worry to them. In fact in about 1971 BP signed an agreement with the joint council of Alaska Unions to let at least 50% of their contracts to Union contractors. When that agreement ended in 1990s, they did dump a few Union contractors. Several Pipeline contractors like Houston, HC Price, Norcon are Union and still up there.
We ate lots of steak, Prime rib and crab. I have lost 30 lbs since retiring. I ate too much up there. Not much to do but work, eat and sleep. The camps do have nice gyms etc.
Capitalism doesn't exist. It is all just a modified socialism.
That may be a bit simplistic. Capitalism seems to have been replaced by "Free Market". That seems to be palatable in most countries including Communist China. Just as Democracy is used to describe many different forms of government. From dictatorships like Iran to Republics such as the USA. Iraq under Hussein was called a Democracy because they got to vote for the dictator of their choice. I do agree we have many social programs that would put us into a socialized category. I do not see anyplace in the constitution giving our Congress the right to implement many of the current socialized programs. I trust the Federal Government about as much as I trust General Motors to do right by me. The Unions were implemented to give the worker a fighting chance against corporate greed. What do we have in place to protect us against our overly aggressive Federal Government?
In this morning's Boston Globe: Chrysler LLC's contract with the United Auto Workers has been rejected by most large union locals representing auto-assembly plants during the first four days of voting
Well, a real "free market" is the desire of Misean libertarianism, and if you wish for a safe and stable society, you do not want such visions to become reality.
Democracy is used to describe most governments, and "nice" is used in many car ads - doesn't make it true.
Your overly aggressive feds are as enabled by conservatives every bit as much they are by democrats. It is up to the people to organize and do something...and so long as cheap Chinese goods produced by glorified slave labor are able to soothe the masses, and naive Christian extremism is able to keep people submissive, nothing will change.
Friday October 19 By Anne D'Innocenzio, AP Business Writer AP IMPACT: America's Working Poor Stretching Paychecks to the Breaking Point
NEW YORK (AP) -- The calculus of living paycheck to paycheck in America is getting harder. What used to last four days might last half that long now. Pay the gas bill, but skip breakfast. Eat less for lunch so the kids can have a healthy dinner.
Across the nation, Americans are increasingly unable to stretch their dollars to the next payday as they juggle higher rent, food and energy bills. It's starting to affect middle-income working families as well as the poor, and has reached the point of affecting day-to-day calculations of merchants like Wal-Mart Stores Inc., 7-Eleven Inc. and Family Dollar Stores Inc.
Food pantries, which distribute foodstuffs to the needy, are reporting severe shortages and reduced government funding at the very time that they are seeing a surge of new people seeking their help.
While economists debate whether the country is headed for a recession, some say the financial stress is already the worst since the last downturn at the start of this decade.
From Family Dollar to Wal-Mart, merchants have adjusted their product mix and pricing accordingly. Sales data show a marked and more prolonged drop in spending in the days before shoppers get their paychecks, when they buy only the barest essentials before splurging around payday.
"It's pretty pronounced," said Kiley Rawlins, a spokeswoman at Family Dollar. "It seems like to us, customers are running out of food products, paper towels sooner in the month."
Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, said the imbalance in spending before and after payday in July was the biggest it has ever seen, though the drop-off wasn't as steep in August.
And 7-Eleven says its grocery sales have jumped 12-13 percent over the past year, compared with only slight increases for non-necessities like gloves and toys. Shoppers can't afford to load up at the supermarket and are going to the most convenient places to buy emergency food items like milk and eggs.
"It even costs more to get the basics like soap and laundry detergent," said Michelle Grassia, who lives with her husband and three teenage children in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn, N.Y.
Her husband's check from his job at a grocery store used to last four days. "Now, it lasts only two," she said.
To make up the difference, Grassia buys one gallon of milk a week instead of three. She sometimes skips breakfast and lunch to make sure there's enough food for her children. She cooks with a hot plate because gas is too expensive. And she depends more than ever on the bags of free vegetables and powdered milk from a local food pantry.
Grassia's story is neither new nor unique. With the fastest-rising food and energy prices since the 1980s, low-income consumers are stretching their budgets by eating cheap foods like peanut butter and pasta.
Industry analysts and some economists fear the strain will get worse as people are hit with higher home heating bills this winter and mortgage rates go up.
It's bad enough already for 85-year-old Dominica Hoffman.
She gets $1,400 a month in pension and Social Security from her days in the garment industry. After paying $500 in rent on an apartment in Pennsauken, N.J., and shelling out money for food, gas and other expenses, she's broke by the end of the month. She's had to cut fruits and vegetables from her grocery order -- and that's even with financial help from her children.
"Everything is up," she said.
Many consumers, particularly those making less than $30,000 a year, are cutting spending on nutritious food like milk and vegetables, and analysts fear they're further skimping on basic medical care and other critical services.
Coupon-clipping just isn't enough.
"The reality of hunger is right here," said the Rev. Melony Samuels, director of The BedStuy Campaign against Hunger, a church-affiliated food pantry in Brooklyn.
The pantry scrambled to feed 5,000 new families over the past 12 months, up almost 70 percent from 3,000 the year before.
"I am shocked to see such numbers," Samuels said, "and I am really concerned that this is just the beginning of what we are going to see."
In the past three months, Samuels has seen more clients in higher-paying jobs -- the $35,000 range -- line up for food.
The Regional Food Bank of Northeastern New York, which covers 23 counties in New York State, cited a 30 percent rise in visitors in the first nine months of this year, compared with 2006.
Maureen Schnellmann, senior director of food and nutrition programs at the American Red Cross Food Pantry in Boston, reported a 30 percent increase from January through August over last year.
Until a few months ago, Dellria Seales, a home care assistant, was just getting by living with her daughter, a hairdresser, and two grandchildren in a one-bedroom apartment for $750 a month. But a knee injury in January forced her to quit her job, leaving her at the mercy of Samuels' pantry because most of her daughter's $1,200 a month income goes to rent, energy and food costs.
"I need it. Without it, we wouldn't survive," Seales said as she picked up carrots and bananas.
John Vogel, a professor at Dartmouth College's Tuck School of Business, worries that the squeeze will lead to a less nutritious diet and inadequate medical or child care.
In the meantime, rising costs show no signs of abating.
Gas prices hit a record nationwide average of $3.23 per gallon in late May before receding a little, though prices are expected to soar again later this year. Food costs have increased 4.5 percent over the past 12 months, partly because of higher fuel costs. Egg prices were 44 percent higher, while milk was up 21.3 percent over the past 12 months to nearly $4 a gallon, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
The average family of four is spending anywhere from $7 to $10 extra a week -- $40 more a month -- on groceries alone, compared to a year ago, according to retail consultant Burt Flickinger III.
And while overall wage growth is a solid 4.1 percent over the past 12 months, economists say the increases are mostly for the top earners.
Retailers started noticing the strain in late spring and early summer as they were monitoring the spending around the paycheck cycle.
Wal-Mart and Family Dollar key on the first week of the month, when government checks like Social Security and public assistance generally hit consumers' mailboxes.
7-Eleven, whose customers are more diverse, looks at paycheck cycles in specific markets dominated by a major employer, such as General Motors in Detroit, to discern trends in shopping.
To economize, shoppers are going for less expensive food.
To economize, shoppers are going for less expensive food.
"They're buying more peanut butter and pasta. And they're going for hamburger meat," Flickinger, the retail consultant, said. "They're trying to outsmart the store by looking for deep discounts at the end of the month."
He said the last time he saw this was 2000-2001, when the dot-com bubble burst and the economy went into a recession after massive layoffs.
For now, low-price retailers are readjusting their merchandising and pricing.
Wal-Mart is becoming more aggressive on discounting. It announced Thursday it is expanding price cuts to 15,000 items, ranging from Motts apple juice and Progresso soups to women's fleece tops, heading into the holidays.
Family Dollar, whose food offerings were limited to candy and snacks until two years ago, has expanded its mix of groceries like fruit cups, cereal and such refrigerated items as milk and ice cream while cutting back on shoes. This summer the chain began accepting food stamps.
Food pantries are also getting creative. Samuels said her church, Full Gospel Tabernacle of Faith, just started offering free cooking classes to teach clients who are diabetic or have other health conditions how to prepare vegetables like squash. It's also offering free exercise classes.
"We are trying to make them health conscious," Samuels said. "It's not right to give them just anything. Our mantra is eat well and live well."
Associated Press Writers Geoff Mulvihill in Mount Laurel, N.J., and Terry Tang in Phoenix, Ariz., contributed to this report.
Your overly aggressive feds are as enabled by conservatives every bit as much they are by democrats. It is up to the people to organize and do something...and so long as cheap Chinese goods produced by glorified slave labor are able to soothe the masses, and naive Christian extremism is able to keep people submissive, nothing will change.
I do agree with you on the whole. We also are keeping people submissive with massive welfare programs and warehoused votes.
There is enough blame to go around. I am not anxious to live in a Kingdom or European style government either. I think the countries in the EU have just as many problems as we have, maybe more.
PS It is pretty easy to keep the Christian Community in the Republican camp as long as they remain Pro-Life and anti gay marriage. If they were to drop those two planks, that group would be looking for a different party. The main reason Rudy will not be the candidate.
I think we are infringing on the UAW thread. We should be in the Politics thread, sorry....
Prospects fade for union approval of Chrysler deal Chrysler's contract with the United Auto Workers has been rejected by bigger union locals during the first three days of voting that started on Thursday, but was supported by smaller groups, dimming the prospects for approval of the accord.
Three of five locals that voted to reject the proposal represent workers at assembly plants with 1,500 or more workers, according to union officials and news reports. Most of the five locals that have accepted it have fewer than 1,000 members.
A majority of members voting through this week must approve the four-year contract for it to take effect.
One opponent is Bill Parker, chief of the UAW committee that negotiated the accord. He says that the UAW president, Ron Gettelfinger, did not secure work for Chrysler plants as far into the future as he did in the agreement approved this month by two-thirds of workers at General Motors.
"If the Chrysler contract is voted down, Gettelfinger has to go back to the company and say, 'I need more product guarantees,' " said Dan Luria, an analyst at the Michigan Manufacturing Technology Center in Plymouth.
When the head of the UAW committee that negotiated the deal is against it, there's trouble in paradise. Looks like he wants Gettelfinger out and this might be the start of an internal power play.
If the plan is to turn the union more militant and try to go back to the "good old days", I think they're in for a very rude awakening.
"So I see Rocky is in favor of socialism and nationalism instead of capitalism. Now there's a combination that's done wonders for the world"...
Hey, don't pick on rocky...we keep him around to remind us what liberalism and communism are like...plus, his comments do keep us on our philosophical toes...
Hard to believe, but we even find areas of agreement sometimes, kinda like finding an occasional area of agreement with Lenin or Stalin...:):):):):):):)
Well Cerberus' restructuring plan at Chrylser included fairly large cutbacks as I recall. And Cerberus can probably aford a bit of a strike. But Ford cannot, and this development probably puts Ford on the hot seat.
to answer to Wall Street with quarterly reports, I believe, as they have taken Chrysler private...so they can actually take the time to make plans for the future without some analyst looking over their shoulder, and also deal with the UAW as they see fit...it will be interesting to watch...the buyers had to know that contract negotiations were coming up at the time of purchase, so I would bet they have their strategy mapped out, for both the short and the long haul...
It is gratifying to see another well educated and brilliant captain of industry navigate his way to the top and enjoying his success. More power and money to them. They deserve it.
The problem is, all I see is decisions that APPEAR to be made SOLELY on the basis of stock price.
Now, while that may be my perception, one of the reasons for that is the comment iv'e heard over and over here and in other media outlets about CEO's being beholden to the stockholders. This leads to the perception that all they care about is the stock price, especially when they are given large stock options. Then it seems all they care about is maximzing THEIR profits.
You must admit, Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz seem to be doing a very good job pulling GM out of their quagmire. All the auto experts who've had a chance to pour over cars like the CTS and Malibu, as well as the GMT 900 trucks are amazed at the quailty that these vehicles are made of.
Now, just like 25 yrs ago, they seem to be doing for GM what Iaccoca did for Chrysler, only taking a different path.
As for the UAW, I believe they did their part in negotiations, as their was plenty of give and take. The mentality you speak of (don't buy cars made on Mon. or Fri., etc) I believe is going away, not entirely of course, but going, just based on the fact that the workforce have had a good scare put into them over the last several years w/ plant closings and all. I think that the products coming down the line and the reception they receive in the public will reinvigorate them. Remember, a lot of the troubles the imports have been having lately can be attributed to their AMERICAN workforce. Not that it's a bad workforce because they're non-union, but because they are pumping out so many cars.
OK, I will admit that GM does seem to be making changes, and for the better...but I sure hope I don't see the boy who cried wolf, where their cars become boat anchors again...
Yes, I realize that one must give them a chance, but you can certainly appreciate my caution/skepticism/fear/reluctance to spend my money when my memory of their past 30 years is fresh in my mind...
Fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me...
Bottom line question...is the quality REAL, or simply a flash in the pan to look good and snooker more folks over time???...I do wear my skepticism on my sleeve, and I am aware of many things the US auto industry has done over the years, and I am slow to believe they have truly reformed...
They are definitely working under my skepticism and trying to dislodge it. They certainly make better LOOKING cars and the designs make you think they are reading the market loads better.
By the time I'm planning on buying again I should have a much better idea of what's up.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Bottom line question...is the quality REAL, or simply a flash in the pan to look good and snooker more folks over time???...I do wear my skepticism on my sleeve, and I am aware of many things the US auto industry has done over the years, and I am slow to believe they have truly reformed...
Well, it better not be a flash. I worked on those early "K" cars and Caravans from the Iaccoca era and they weren't quality products by any means. But, what they were was innovative, and people really took to them, plus the simplicity of having basically 1 platform for all their FWD models pulled them out of trouble. I don't forsee that happening ever again, because the quality HAS to be there now. It seems as though people WON'T stand for poor worksmanship or poor quality of the pieces in the cars now. So far, the experts seem to be going "WOW" over the new GM products, and they don't go "WOW" for nothing.
They are definitely working under my skepticism and trying to dislodge it. They certainly make better LOOKING cars and the designs make you think they are reading the market loads better.
I saw my first new model VUE on the road today. It caught my attention, it is definitely a nice looking small SUV. Big improvement over the previous body design.
I must agree...people will not stand for poor workmanship or poor quality in a purchase as expensive as an auto...whether you like Japanese, Korean or European cars, Big 3 now has very good competition they are up against, and it isn't patriotism that will sell Big 3 cars, as it is certainly unpatriotic to waste our money on junk...
There is a part of me that is always rooting for the home team, as much as I like my 4 previous Honda products, but the Big 3 will have to earn our business with good cars, not fancy slogans...
One of our members over in Chronic Car Buyers went from a previous generation Vue to a new one. He is very impressed. It's a better vehicle by every measure.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
There is a big difference between Wal Mart products and Ford/GM/Chrysler products.
Let's say when my Malibu breaks down and I can replace it with another one and the total cost is still lower than buying one Camry/Accord then I'll definitely give it a try.
It's fine to use comparison but let's try to keep it an apple-to-apple one.
The sad part is that the domestics are in danger of becoming the Walmart of the automotive industry.
The main attractions have, for a long time, been "low price, incentives and rebates" and not too much else.
Things are looking up - for GM, and, to a lesser extent, Ford - on the product front, and Ford seems to have gotten a handle on quality. But it is the domestics that are struggling to get out of the bargain basement, along with Kia and Hyundai.
The same mindset that drives people to Walmart is NOT driving sales of Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, BMWs and Benzes. Please note that low price is NOT their main attraction, and their vehicles generally sell for more than a comparable domestic product.
If anything, the Walmart mindset is most likely to occur among domestic buyers.
Incidentally, Walmart sells lots of brand-name stuff available in other stores. It just keeps prices lower by buying fewer variations of the same product, and using its state-of-the-art tracking system to better monitor inventory.
And lots of other stores sell junk, too. And guess what - there is a market for it, because often people don't WANT the best. If I want a pair of sandals for yardwork or car washing, I'm not spending good money on a name-brand pair. "VERY cheap and good enough" are...good enough.
Comments
What more do you want ?????????????
If $14 per hour is the starting pay at GM's competition Honda, then what do you expect? Remember the ill fated grocery worker's strike and subsequent lockout in CA. After months of being on strike they got just what Von's, Ralph's & Albertson's offered in the beginning. Grocery clerks now start at minimum wage $6.75 per hour. Some stores are having problems finding workers as you can flip burgers and make $8 per hour.
Not much as the UAW and GM's hands are tied because of un fair and un free trade from global competition. :mad:
Remember the ill fated grocery worker's strike and subsequent lockout in CA. After months of being on strike they got just what Von's, Ralph's & Albertson's offered in the beginning. Grocery clerks now start at minimum wage $6.75 per hour.
OMG, you couldn't afford to pay rent on a card board box in Compton, let alone a efficiency apartment on those wages. :surprise:
Some stores are having problems finding workers as you can flip burgers and make $8 per hour.
So Arnie, has illegal aliens working in the stores while the teens work the burger flipping jobs ? What a state !!!! :confuse:
-Rocky
PS
We cleaned the house ourselves. I'll be danged if I am going to pay $48.25 per hour for house cleaning. That is almost UAW wages.
I dare say that most of the posters here will say that GM and the UAW are as much at fault for our being pushed into the global market as any other entities. Both by greed.
Dare I say that above post is coming from somebody who made $38 bucks an hour. :confuse:
-Rocky
Isn't that the retail price (what you pay Merry Maids)?? I'll bet the Mexicans who'd have shown up at the door wouldn't have made much more than minimum.
BTW, Rocky, I notice all we hear from those anti-union guys are crickets when the topic turns to executive pay.
They don't seem to realize that with all that money they're throwing at one another, they also throw that kind of money at lobbyists (who are usually retired execs)to lobby Congress for rules and laws in their favor. Thats OK, but if a UNION dares do the same.....WAAAAAAAAH THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!! BOOO HOOOO
If the chief exec does right and returns the company to profits with better products or greater (profitable) volume of current products, then there should a bonus waiting for him/her in the form of stock to sell, but ONLY WHEN PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN ACHIEVED...If the company is profitable, then, by definition, money should be flowing, folks are getting paid, and the stock should rise because the company is better, not because of some gimmick...
I may feel different if the actual company founder was highly paid, simply because it IS his/her company...but I have made the point before (I get confused between topics like "politics" and "UAW" and "buying American cars", so I may be cross-posting) that CEOs brought in from another company (Mullaly-Boeing) are not the true capitalists, but simply a different level of hired help...
It does sicken me to think that I may agree with Rocky on some of these mini-topics, esp since I consider his politics so left-wing he could teach Karl Marx a thing or two about leftist politics...but, stranger things have happened, like UFOs and religious figures showing up in fast food sandwiches...:):):):):):)..... :shades: :P
I am not sure what all that has to do with the greed of the UAW employees and the incompetent, greedy management at GM.
I can see where a UAW member working for GM would be upset at the compensation given to the executives. If they were not so enslaved to the UAW they would just leave and move to some other place. It is not easy to do. But millions of Americans have had to do just that to survive. The UAW members have had a long joyful ride and it is about over. The smart ones saved money when it was flowing and didn't buy everything on credit.
Why did the non-union make more than you ???? Do you think the oil company's paid that much out of the kindness of their hearts ???? Do you think it was like Toyota, and hadto keep the workers happy enough so they won't organize ????
I obviously can't make a accurate judgement on the topic but my gut feeling based on witnessing other fields most notably the automobile sector I would say they were living off of y'alls union shirt tails. They might of made a few bucks more than you but did they have the teamster benefits ?????? :surprise:
-Rocky
-Rocky
Of course not! Now, with GM a lot of us realize they've made more mistakes than Britney Spears in a Mercedes. But, they let so much time go by(you ought to be thinking about the 70's, 80's, 90's and the first 5 years of the 2000's here) before thinking about small rigs that would be appealing to Americans to buy, about making decent mid-size offerings, etc., that the Japanese and even the Koreans have overtook them and now they're playing catch-up games.
In the meantime the UAW members continue to pant down these contract negotiations like they are their saving grace, when, a different product is the answer and a different mindset worn by same is a big part of the answer. Does GM management need to worry about everyone striking or do they need team players showing up that sincerely want to help build better rigs! Yes! Gettin' while the getting's bad?
It would be different if GM was sitting pretty on top of the automotive world right now. We loved our Christmas bonuses in December at Boeing and I have happy memories heading to the mall with a tad extra to blow. But GM is playing catch-up and save our hide!
Really, long-timers and retirees should seriously be taking benefit cuts in a 20-35% manner right now. Not strutting their Kobe Bryant stuff and slam-dunking on their own management.
I guess I have a viewpoint that won't seem to change, rockford fosgate. Just the way it is.
I do want you to find suitable employment for yourself soon, man. And yes, this is a great time to look for work at Boeing's.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
We ate lots of steak, Prime rib and crab. I have lost 30 lbs since retiring. I ate too much up there. Not much to do but work, eat and sleep. The camps do have nice gyms etc.
http://www.nsm88.org/index2.html
If there was a little more nationalism in the first world, some future problems would be able to be avoided.
Many neocon elements aren't too far from that link... :P
That may be a bit simplistic. Capitalism seems to have been replaced by "Free Market". That seems to be palatable in most countries including Communist China. Just as Democracy is used to describe many different forms of government. From dictatorships like Iran to Republics such as the USA. Iraq under Hussein was called a Democracy because they got to vote for the dictator of their choice. I do agree we have many social programs that would put us into a socialized category. I do not see anyplace in the constitution giving our Congress the right to implement many of the current socialized programs. I trust the Federal Government about as much as I trust General Motors to do right by me. The Unions were implemented to give the worker a fighting chance against corporate greed. What do we have in place to protect us against our overly aggressive Federal Government?
Chrysler LLC's contract with the United Auto Workers has been rejected by most large union locals representing auto-assembly plants during the first four days of voting
Alternate Route chimes in:
Windsor Knot
Democracy is used to describe most governments, and "nice" is used in many car ads - doesn't make it true.
Your overly aggressive feds are as enabled by conservatives every bit as much they are by democrats. It is up to the people to organize and do something...and so long as cheap Chinese goods produced by glorified slave labor are able to soothe the masses, and naive Christian extremism is able to keep people submissive, nothing will change.
By Anne D'Innocenzio, AP Business Writer
AP IMPACT: America's Working Poor Stretching Paychecks to the Breaking Point
NEW YORK (AP) -- The calculus of living paycheck to paycheck in America is getting harder. What used to last four days might last half that long now. Pay the gas bill, but skip breakfast. Eat less for lunch so the kids can have a healthy dinner.
Across the nation, Americans are increasingly unable to stretch their dollars to the next payday as they juggle higher rent, food and energy bills. It's starting to affect middle-income working families as well as the poor, and has reached the point of affecting day-to-day calculations of merchants like Wal-Mart Stores Inc., 7-Eleven Inc. and Family Dollar Stores Inc.
Food pantries, which distribute foodstuffs to the needy, are reporting severe shortages and reduced government funding at the very time that they are seeing a surge of new people seeking their help.
While economists debate whether the country is headed for a recession, some say the financial stress is already the worst since the last downturn at the start of this decade.
From Family Dollar to Wal-Mart, merchants have adjusted their product mix and pricing accordingly. Sales data show a marked and more prolonged drop in spending in the days before shoppers get their paychecks, when they buy only the barest essentials before splurging around payday.
"It's pretty pronounced," said Kiley Rawlins, a spokeswoman at Family Dollar. "It seems like to us, customers are running out of food products, paper towels sooner in the month."
Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, said the imbalance in spending before and after payday in July was the biggest it has ever seen, though the drop-off wasn't as steep in August.
And 7-Eleven says its grocery sales have jumped 12-13 percent over the past year, compared with only slight increases for non-necessities like gloves and toys. Shoppers can't afford to load up at the supermarket and are going to the most convenient places to buy emergency food items like milk and eggs.
"It even costs more to get the basics like soap and laundry detergent," said Michelle Grassia, who lives with her husband and three teenage children in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn, N.Y.
Her husband's check from his job at a grocery store used to last four days. "Now, it lasts only two," she said.
To make up the difference, Grassia buys one gallon of milk a week instead of three. She sometimes skips breakfast and lunch to make sure there's enough food for her children. She cooks with a hot plate because gas is too expensive. And she depends more than ever on the bags of free vegetables and powdered milk from a local food pantry.
Grassia's story is neither new nor unique. With the fastest-rising food and energy prices since the 1980s, low-income consumers are stretching their budgets by eating cheap foods like peanut butter and pasta.
Industry analysts and some economists fear the strain will get worse as people are hit with higher home heating bills this winter and mortgage rates go up.
It's bad enough already for 85-year-old Dominica Hoffman.
She gets $1,400 a month in pension and Social Security from her days in the garment industry. After paying $500 in rent on an apartment in Pennsauken, N.J., and shelling out money for food, gas and other expenses, she's broke by the end of the month. She's had to cut fruits and vegetables from her grocery order -- and that's even with financial help from her children.
"Everything is up," she said.
Many consumers, particularly those making less than $30,000 a year, are cutting spending on nutritious food like milk and vegetables, and analysts fear they're further skimping on basic medical care and other critical services.
Coupon-clipping just isn't enough.
"The reality of hunger is right here," said the Rev. Melony Samuels, director of The BedStuy Campaign against Hunger, a church-affiliated food pantry in Brooklyn.
The pantry scrambled to feed 5,000 new families over the past 12 months, up almost 70 percent from 3,000 the year before.
"I am shocked to see such numbers," Samuels said, "and I am really concerned that this is just the beginning of what we are going to see."
In the past three months, Samuels has seen more clients in higher-paying jobs -- the $35,000 range -- line up for food.
The Regional Food Bank of Northeastern New York, which covers 23 counties in New York State, cited a 30 percent rise in visitors in the first nine months of this year, compared with 2006.
Maureen Schnellmann, senior director of food and nutrition programs at the American Red Cross Food Pantry in Boston, reported a 30 percent increase from January through August over last year.
Until a few months ago, Dellria Seales, a home care assistant, was just getting by living with her daughter, a hairdresser, and two grandchildren in a one-bedroom apartment for $750 a month. But a knee injury in January forced her to quit her job, leaving her at the mercy of Samuels' pantry because most of her daughter's $1,200 a month income goes to rent, energy and food costs.
"I need it. Without it, we wouldn't survive," Seales said as she picked up carrots and bananas.
John Vogel, a professor at Dartmouth College's Tuck School of Business, worries that the squeeze will lead to a less nutritious diet and inadequate medical or child care.
In the meantime, rising costs show no signs of abating.
Gas prices hit a record nationwide average of $3.23 per gallon in late May before receding a little, though prices are expected to soar again later this year. Food costs have increased 4.5 percent over the past 12 months, partly because of higher fuel costs. Egg prices were 44 percent higher, while milk was up 21.3 percent over the past 12 months to nearly $4 a gallon, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
The average family of four is spending anywhere from $7 to $10 extra a week -- $40 more a month -- on groceries alone, compared to a year ago, according to retail consultant Burt Flickinger III.
And while overall wage growth is a solid 4.1 percent over the past 12 months, economists say the increases are mostly for the top earners.
Retailers started noticing the strain in late spring and early summer as they were monitoring the spending around the paycheck cycle.
Wal-Mart and Family Dollar key on the first week of the month, when government checks like Social Security and public assistance generally hit consumers' mailboxes.
7-Eleven, whose customers are more diverse, looks at paycheck cycles in specific markets dominated by a major employer, such as General Motors in Detroit, to discern trends in shopping.
To economize, shoppers are going for less expensive food.
"They're buying more peanut butter and pasta. And they're going for hamburger meat," Flickinger, the retail consultant, said. "They're trying to outsmart the store by looking for deep discounts at the end of the month."
He said the last time he saw this was 2000-2001, when the dot-com bubble burst and the economy went into a recession after massive layoffs.
For now, low-price retailers are readjusting their merchandising and pricing.
Wal-Mart is becoming more aggressive on discounting. It announced Thursday it is expanding price cuts to 15,000 items, ranging from Motts apple juice and Progresso soups to women's fleece tops, heading into the holidays.
Family Dollar, whose food offerings were limited to candy and snacks until two years ago, has expanded its mix of groceries like fruit cups, cereal and such refrigerated items as milk and ice cream while cutting back on shoes. This summer the chain began accepting food stamps.
Food pantries are also getting creative. Samuels said her church, Full Gospel Tabernacle of Faith, just started offering free cooking classes to teach clients who are diabetic or have other health conditions how to prepare vegetables like squash. It's also offering free exercise classes.
"We are trying to make them health conscious," Samuels said. "It's not right to give them just anything. Our mantra is eat well and live well."
Associated Press Writers Geoff Mulvihill in Mount Laurel, N.J., and Terry Tang in Phoenix, Ariz., contributed to this report.
I do agree with you on the whole. We also are keeping people submissive with massive welfare programs and warehoused votes.
There is enough blame to go around. I am not anxious to live in a Kingdom or European style government either. I think the countries in the EU have just as many problems as we have, maybe more.
PS
It is pretty easy to keep the Christian Community in the Republican camp as long as they remain Pro-Life and anti gay marriage. If they were to drop those two planks, that group would be looking for a different party. The main reason Rudy will not be the candidate.
I think we are infringing on the UAW thread. We should be in the Politics thread, sorry....
rockylee, "Politics" #497, 21 Oct 2007 1:53 pm
Chrysler's contract with the United Auto Workers has been rejected by bigger union locals during the first three days of voting that started on Thursday, but was supported by smaller groups, dimming the prospects for approval of the accord.
Three of five locals that voted to reject the proposal represent workers at assembly plants with 1,500 or more workers, according to union officials and news reports. Most of the five locals that have accepted it have fewer than 1,000 members.
A majority of members voting through this week must approve the four-year contract for it to take effect.
One opponent is Bill Parker, chief of the UAW committee that negotiated the accord. He says that the UAW president, Ron Gettelfinger, did not secure work for Chrysler plants as far into the future as he did in the agreement approved this month by two-thirds of workers at General Motors.
"If the Chrysler contract is voted down, Gettelfinger has to go back to the company and say, 'I need more product guarantees,' " said Dan Luria, an analyst at the Michigan Manufacturing Technology Center in Plymouth.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/21/bloomberg/bxautos.php
When the head of the UAW committee that negotiated the deal is against it, there's trouble in paradise. Looks like he wants Gettelfinger out and this might be the start of an internal power play.
If the plan is to turn the union more militant and try to go back to the "good old days", I think they're in for a very rude awakening.
Hey, don't pick on rocky...we keep him around to remind us what liberalism and communism are like...plus, his comments do keep us on our philosophical toes...
Hard to believe, but we even find areas of agreement sometimes, kinda like finding an occasional area of agreement with Lenin or Stalin...:):):):):):):)
There's PLENTY in the news about the UAW. Let's get back to discussiing it please.
Where do they go from here? Is there more Chrysler can promise in the way of production? They should be willing to do more in the US.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Plus, the firm wants to kill off several models, given that the market for them is either rapidly evaporating or already nonexistent.
At this point, the survival of the entire firm looks shaky, so the rejection of the contract by the workers just may, in the long run, be moot.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
Now, while that may be my perception, one of the reasons for that is the comment iv'e heard over and over here and in other media outlets about CEO's being beholden to the stockholders. This leads to the perception that all they care about is the stock price, especially when they are given large stock options. Then it seems all they care about is maximzing THEIR profits.
You must admit, Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz seem to be doing a very good job pulling GM out of their quagmire. All the auto experts who've had a chance to pour over cars like the CTS and Malibu, as well as the GMT 900 trucks are amazed at the quailty that these vehicles are made of.
Now, just like 25 yrs ago, they seem to be doing for GM what Iaccoca did for Chrysler, only taking a different path.
As for the UAW, I believe they did their part in negotiations, as their was plenty of give and take. The mentality you speak of (don't buy cars made on Mon. or Fri., etc) I believe is going away, not entirely of course, but going, just based on the fact that the workforce have had a good scare put into them over the last several years w/ plant closings and all. I think that the products coming down the line and the reception they receive in the public will reinvigorate them. Remember, a lot of the troubles the imports have been having lately can be attributed to their AMERICAN workforce. Not that it's a bad workforce because they're non-union, but because they are pumping out so many cars.
-Rocky
-Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071023/AUTO01/710230390/1148-
-Rocky
Yes, I realize that one must give them a chance, but you can certainly appreciate my caution/skepticism/fear/reluctance to spend my money when my memory of their past 30 years is fresh in my mind...
Fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me...
Bottom line question...is the quality REAL, or simply a flash in the pan to look good and snooker more folks over time???...I do wear my skepticism on my sleeve, and I am aware of many things the US auto industry has done over the years, and I am slow to believe they have truly reformed...
They are definitely working under my skepticism and trying to dislodge it. They certainly make better LOOKING cars and the designs make you think they are reading the market loads better.
By the time I'm planning on buying again I should have a much better idea of what's up.
Well, it better not be a flash. I worked on those early "K" cars and Caravans from the Iaccoca era and they weren't quality products by any means.
But, what they were was innovative, and people really took to them, plus the simplicity of having basically 1 platform for all their FWD models pulled them out of trouble.
I don't forsee that happening ever again, because the quality HAS to be there now. It seems as though people WON'T stand for poor worksmanship or poor quality of the pieces in the cars now. So far, the experts seem to be going "WOW" over the new GM products, and they don't go "WOW" for nothing.
I saw my first new model VUE on the road today. It caught my attention, it is definitely a nice looking small SUV. Big improvement over the previous body design.
Day of Decision?
There is a part of me that is always rooting for the home team, as much as I like my 4 previous Honda products, but the Big 3 will have to earn our business with good cars, not fancy slogans...
Tell that to all those shopping at Wal~Mart!
There is a big difference between Wal Mart products and Ford/GM/Chrysler products.
Let's say when my Malibu breaks down and I can replace it with another one and the total cost is still lower than buying one Camry/Accord then I'll definitely give it a try.
It's fine to use comparison but let's try to keep it an apple-to-apple one.
The main attractions have, for a long time, been "low price, incentives and rebates" and not too much else.
Things are looking up - for GM, and, to a lesser extent, Ford - on the product front, and Ford seems to have gotten a handle on quality. But it is the domestics that are struggling to get out of the bargain basement, along with Kia and Hyundai.
The same mindset that drives people to Walmart is NOT driving sales of Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, BMWs and Benzes. Please note that low price is NOT their main attraction, and their vehicles generally sell for more than a comparable domestic product.
If anything, the Walmart mindset is most likely to occur among domestic buyers.
Incidentally, Walmart sells lots of brand-name stuff available in other stores. It just keeps prices lower by buying fewer variations of the same product, and using its state-of-the-art tracking system to better monitor inventory.
And lots of other stores sell junk, too. And guess what - there is a market for it, because often people don't WANT the best. If I want a pair of sandals for yardwork or car washing, I'm not spending good money on a name-brand pair. "VERY cheap and good enough" are...good enough.
-Rocky