Read your article. It's a hard pill to swallow. No gaurantees leads to job insecurity. They and Ford, are worried about having job gaurantees is what it boils down to more so than the wages.
Why should the UAW workers be different that anyone else? If I don't do my job the right way, I'll get fired. If my company cannot make money, they will cut back on employees. Guaranteeing someone a job,no matter what, in this day and age is ridiculous.
That is why they organized so they can have a "collective bargaining" agreement so the company can't pull the rug out from underneath them. Having specific product being produced at a certain location is security. Just having them say "trust us" is no longer good enough. They are willing to sacrifice in other area's (wages & benefits) to gain that objective.
My point is, that isn't a reasonable objective. It handcuffs the company, and hurts the bottom line. It is one of the reasons why the Big 3 aren't competitive.
A job is not a right. it has to make economic sense for an employer.
My how the worm has turned. I recall 15 maybe 20 years ago hearing how wonderful the Japanese system was because people had jobs for life. I assume that included the auto workers for the companies making whatever models they had then.
Now we have people telling us that auto workers should have no guarantees of job security. The Japanese manufacturers come here and don't want anything to do with unions. They want to be able to hire and fire at will when people become injured or older and not as agile as they would like. Somehow the worm has turned when we have people saying that's the best way: use the worker and then toss them out to become wards of the state.
Guess what? Thats the way it is. Even the japanese don't have jobs for life anymore. It didn't work. In fact, it was one of the issues that nearly bankrupted Nissan.
It has a lot to do with the rapid change in technology. A company has to be able to change much faster today than they did 20 years ago. If the Union contract ties the companies hands on making changes, they will not be able to compete. Look what happened to IBM. They were probably the most loyal employer in the Fortune 500. They finally had to layoff people when the dynamics of personal computers put them out of the competition. The only way the UAW can hope to survive is by doing what the Big 3 wants them to do. If they decide to build refrigerators instead of Malibu cars. The workers need to adapt.
You kill me Volvomax. I know you have a right to your opinion but I know others like you that put all the blame on the workers and very little on management. :confuse: The Japanese Autoworkers Union (JAW) still to this day have job gaurantees for their union employees. Sure the unions and country have loosened their "Made in Japan" restrictions a lot over the years but by and large their unions are a lot more militant than the UAW. The Japanese, company's are better run as many people would say and I'd have to agree as they think long-term and aren't short-sighted. It also hasn't hurt that they have made billions on artificially low curreny and have been manipulatating it for several years adding like I said billions to the cash coffers.
The Europeans, also have auto unions. Your beloved Volvo, brand you love so much is a union made automobile. I like Volvo's and think for the most part they are fine vehicles and am very happy they are union made by well compensated people in Sweden. They have family's to support also. I'm glad Volvo's aren't made by slaves in some sweat shop. I hope they never are.
The bottom line is people in this country blame the small man and give the executives that are screwing up a free pass. :confuse: I guess I'll never understand that mentality and I suppose I'll never look the other way either when those executives pull the gold strings on their golden parachutes. :sick:
I wish they would build refrigerators once again. I also would like to see GM, build commercial and military airplanes. Hell if I was CEO of GM, I would buy the Saab aviation part of the company and get into the airline industry. Since Bush, is determined to keep us in this war and will start another one this time with Iran, their is money to be made on aircraft. GM, might get paid in Yuan, but money is money, right ????? :surprise:
GM now has a contract in place. They need to make as their number one priority, building better cars than Toyota their number one competitor. It will take time to convince the buyers. Maybe the new Malibu is a good start. What does GM sell that is on a par with the Corolla and Civic? Those are the cars that are going to be in demand with high gas prices.
A job is not a right. it has to make economic sense for an employer.
Neither is owning or running a business. If your boss told you I'll pay you $250/wk plus $25 per new car sold (which I'm sure would be down from your current pay scale) REGARDLESS of how well you perform, just because HE wanted the money for himself, would you say "Yessir Massah, whatever you says" or tell him to go pound tar and find another dealership to work for?
My point is that you could have the best product in the world, but your not going to make ANY money unless you pay employees a proper wage and treat them well. IT IS a 2 way street, no matter what you think. The foreign car co.'s may not pay union wages AND bennies, but they STILL pay well in their areas, and THATS what keeps them happy and the unions at bay. If they cut their pay down to average or below average for their area, see how fast the unions get in. Why??? Lowered morale from an arbtrary pay cut.
Dogs may make a mistake by biting the hand that feeds them, but that doesn't make it OK for the owner to kick it in the ribs for no good reason (or any reason).
I have no doubt that the Germans build great cars. Is the Astra going to be built by UAW workers in the USA? GM USA needs to design and build small to mid-sized cars HERE in the USA that are better than the competition. I do see that the 2007 Malibu is getting better consumer reviews than the 2007 Camry. It is not doing as well with the consumers of Fusion, Altima & Accord. So they need a real winner with the 2008 Malibu. I think Ford may be doing better at improvement than GM. Now if Ford can get a contract without a strike they may survive.
rockylee: I know you have a right to your opinion but I know others like you that put all the blame on the workers and very little on management.
What the union wants - guaranteed employment no matter what, rigid job classifications, etc. - are not feasible in today's rapidly changing market. That's not bashing the union; that's merely stating a fact. And it doesn't even mean that the union has to go away; it means that the union must revise its expectations.
rockylee: The Japanese Autoworkers Union (JAW) still to this day have job gaurantees for their union employees. Sure the unions and country have loosened their "Made in Japan" restrictions a lot over the years but by and large their unions are a lot more militant than the UAW.
It is my understanding that both Mazda and Nissan laid off employees when they hit hard times, which was quite a shock to Japan. So those job guarantees may only apply when times are good, which really isn't much of a job guarantee at all.
And I would like to see proof that the Japanese unions are more militant than the UAW. My understanding, based on David Halberstam's book The Reckoning, and other sources, is that they resemble what we would call "company" unions, which were banned in the U.S. by the Wagner Act for being too closely controlled by management.
Neither is owning or running a business. If your boss told you I'll pay you $250/wk plus $25 per new car sold (which I'm sure would be down from your current pay scale) REGARDLESS of how well you perform, just because HE wanted the money for himself, would you say "Yessir Massah, whatever you says" or tell him to go pound tar and find another dealership to work for?
Now you are confusing market economics w/ union economics. Of course I wouldn't work for that money, no one would. That is where the market sets prices. In a union environment, the market has no say. Companies are held hostage to a contract that doesn't give them the flexibility to be competitive.
You kill me Volvomax. I know you have a right to your opinion but I know others like you that put all the blame on the workers and very little on management.
First of all, this thread is about the UAW, not management. I also think managememt was stupid to agree to those contracts, but it looks like they are finally wising up.
Union (JAW) still to this day have job gaurantees for their union employees.
Check again. Japanese automakers HAVE laid off workers. Volvo has a union,but they aren't above firing people when called for. They have in the past.
UAW as a topic does involve management. They negotiate with them. Management has made the decisions about product quality, sizes, FE, etc. through the years. Why wouldn't management be involved.
If Hosts Steve and Clairs feel it's not I'm sure one'll chime in here.
We're more concerned with keeping CarSpace an inviting place for people to feel comfortable to participate. To that end a couple of recent off-topic "personal" posts have been removed.
The negotiations with Ford have been going on for at least a week, if I recall correctly.
Ford recently said that it would consider keeping open four of the plants slated for closure in the downsizing announced earlier this year if it gets the concessions it wants.
It is my understanding that both Mazda and Nissan laid off employees when they hit hard times, It was a man named Carlo Ghosn that closed a couple of Nissan plants in the late 90s early 00s (in Japan) that really helped (the FM platform/VQ engine helped a lot as well) Nissan turn everything around. Mazda is supposedly the only part of FoMoCo that is making money largely because of the same type of thing. And both, of course, do a lot of manufacturing in this country. So it is possible, just ask Toyota or Honda. As you say though, very un-Japanese like things to do, but a good example for 'Detroit', and a good reason that Ghosn was rumored to be headed to GM or Ford recently (not gonna happen). Guaranteed jobs? Not if Ghosn would have anything to say about it!
And I would like to see proof that the Japanese unions are more militant than the UAW.
Oh they make $60K a year, start out with 6 weeks of vacation and every holiday off. Working for toyota, you live in toyota housing, kids go to toyota schools, and you and your family enjoy toyota vacations, your wife shopsat toyota owned grocery stores. Toyota City is like a large family and the benefits were earned by the JAW. The average Toyota-JAW worker makes $60K a year. They don't have the labor problems because they have all the advantages of national healthcare, manipulated currency, and their company gives them plenty of time off to spend with their family. I have read in the past that the UAW and JAW, have been working togeather towards common causes.
Well that mission has been about accomplished so it's time to conquer something else
I don't think they are close yet. I was a died in the wool GM fan until the last few years. The 2005 GMC was made out of tin foil. It was paper thin. The new Denali was as bad. I bought the Sequoia because when you push on the doors they do not pop in and out like the GM. I am sure they have done it to make it lighter. I don't want a light vehicle. GM lost me on their latest try to beat the competition. My 1999 Suburban was a solid built vehicle.
That said, it has nothing to do with the UAW workers. They can only build what GM puts out for them. Maybe they are doing better with the Malibu etc.
You mentioned the Astra. What has that got to do with what they have the UAW working on? My 2005 GMC was proudly built by UAW workers in Indiana. My Sequoia was also built in Indiana. Too bad they gave the Union guys an inferior product to build.
Do you have a link for those figures? This article paints a much less blissful picture of Toyota workers in Japan. I think you read in what you want it to be. Here is what the workers at Toyota City say:
If one complains to the leaders of the union local, the threatening response is, "Find me a company that will hire you for the wages you're being paid now." This is one of the fruits of "labor-management harmony," with an assist from the financial instability of nearby Mitsubishi Motors, and the workers of the world's number one corporation simply wither away.
Toyota has always suffused the workplace with a crisis consciousness in order to suppress wages. While I was working there, managers would regularly address the daily morning assembly, warning that Nissan was catching up, we've got to penetrate the American market, GM is powerful, don't let us end up like Mitsubishi. Toyota used this kind of manipulation to keep wages at average levels and to steadily increase its internal cash reserves.
The result: manufacturing plants in twenty-six countries, total assets of 22 trillion yen ($200 billion), and 2.2 trillion yen ($20 billion) cash-in-hand in the "Toyota Bank." Annual wage negotiations amount to getting together with the labor union to talk about "the priority of competitiveness," and the workers and subcontracting companies are left to suffer.
With a thoroughly defanged company union and no countervailing power within the company, Toyota has been afflicted with a series of scandals that are astounding for the home company of the chairman of the Business Federation. The Labor Standards Bureau ordered Toyota to desist from unpaid overtime, the Nagoya tax office discovered 5 billion yen ($45 million) in underpaid taxes, the company was accused of leaking test questions for the national auto maintenance certification exam--all petty, stopgap mess-ups, unworthy of a world-class corporation. In its mind, Toyota is still a provincial company.
The conversation among my friends turned to an accident one early morning in May, where a 33-year old worker was crushed to death in a metal press, followed by talk of suicides, some from overwork, among elite technicians in the development division and among leaders of the labor union. Over the last decade, they said, they've seen a dramatic increase in depression among their coworkers.
Since the only goal is to create a workplace environment that "brings about a further increase in Toyota's competitiveness," there is little chance that the brake will be applied to the rate of suicide. I spoke with TOGUCHI Masashi, 67, the son of a Toyota worker who grew up hearing talk of "another fatal accident at the factory today" in the bathhouse of the company housing. He has served seven terms in the city assembly as an anti-Toyota representative. "Living in Toyota City," he said, "if I am asked what kind of company Toyota is, I say, nobody knows."
The new GM Trucks and SUV's 2007+ are as solid as your Sequoia ever dreamed of.
That is just not true. Go push on the door or top of a new GM SUV. Then do the same with a Sequoia. Open and close the doors on both. My 2005 GMC doors never did close right. Dealership tried to get them aligned to no avail. The only thing the GM offered that was better was the XM radio. Why Toyota is so far behind in electronics is beyond me. The Escalade drove as well as the Sequoia. It should for $70k. Wife did not like the looks of the front end of the Escalade. I did not push on the roof or doors of the Caddy while the salesman was standing there.
I have a link for the wages. The other info was given to me by my great aunt who toured Toyota City, when she owned "Frontier Equipment" in Boise, Idaho selling Toyota Fork Trucks.
I have "searched" both vehicles including the new Tundra, many times at Pantex. I have been a passenger in a Sequoia, a couple of times as a friend of mine at Pantex, owned one.
I'm calling B.S. on your claim. :confuse: The Sequoia, plastics looked "cheap" compared to their GM, counterparts and I'm amazed as your the first one to say that GM's sheet metal is thin. :surprise: I guess most of america disagree's with you. :P
If most of America disagrees I don't care. I have owned both. GM lost this round with me. The Sequoia is an interim SUV until someone offers a diesel SUV that I like. I wanted to like the Mercedes and it failed the driving test. I agree the plastic on the Sequoia looks cheap and it looks cheap on the new GM vehicles also. I HATE all PLASTIC CRAP on the exterior of a vehicle. My 99 Suburban had plastic fender guards. They faded after a couple years sitting in the CA sun. Give me steel on my vehicles.
Well did you actually take the new GMers out for a test drive ???? The new Denali's are sharp and you could of baught one of them for probably what you paid for your Sequoia. To each their own I suppose.
Well you are one of the few who aren't blaming the problems you see with the vehicles on the UAW workers. I personally am in love with the GMT-900 SUV's and Trucks but I guess you found area's you didn't like. If the new Denali, wouldget the Bose 5.1 and some cooled seats that might be enough for me to pick it as my #1 autombile choice when I get back on my feet.
-Rocky
P.S. I was officially hired today as a Insurance Agent. I have lottsa training to look forward to but the reward is worth it all.
"P.S. I was officially hired today as a Insurance Agent." Congratulations and good for you.
What kind of insurance? Life & Health or Property & Casualty, or all of the above. Who is the company and how would you describe their training program?
Congratulations on that new job. I am sure you will do great.
I did not drive the new Denali. I sat in it and did not like the seats, too hard. Same with the new Escalade. The 2006 seats were much better. I looked at a used 2006 Denali that the dealer thought was worth as much as a new one. I really liked the looks of the last generation of Denali. This one just does not look right. I still like the pre 2000 Chevy Suburban best. The Denali does not seem as roomy in the back seat. None are as good as the old Suburban.
I got a very good deal on the 2007 Sequoia 4X4 limited. The MSRP was $51,684. The Internet manager knocked off $10k. Making it about $4000 under invoice. They just are not selling with the high price of gas. The GMC dealer I bought my PU truck from tried raping me when I tried trading my 2005 in on a 2006 Denali. So I did not really try dealing with them again.
There are things I do not like about the Sequoia. Like the NAV has no integrated XM available. I will live with that for a couple years. By then I hope there are some good diesel SUVs on the market. Maybe the small diesel that GM is getting ready to build.
GM needs to go back to building tough trucks. This plastic bumper crap just does not get it with me. That is for foo foo trucks and SUVs.
The Denali also needs to offer 4WD with low range.
Maybe your friends in the UAW can mention to management that they lost a 5 time GM buyer because of plastic bumpers and thin sheet metal. Then again if they are like management I dealt with for 45 years they have a hard time finding their rearend with both hands.
What kind of insurance? Life & Health or Property & Casualty, or all of the above.
Life insurance, Annuities, Long-Term Care, Short-Term Care and Home Health Care. We also provide a Medicare Supplement. We also offer a variety of other services like a cancer policy.
Who is the company
Bankers Life and Casualty Company.
Company Motto: "We specialize in seniors"
and how would you describe their training program?
Training Magazine: Top 100 Training Programs in the country.
The company has been around since 1879'
I have a lot to learn but it will make me feel good inside helping others.
Congratulations on that new job. I am sure you will do great.
Thanks gagrice, I will give my best effort.
I did not drive the new Denali. I sat in it and did not like the seats, too hard. Same with the new Escalade.
I actually haven't had the chance to sit in a new Denali. :sick: I heard about the Slade, seats being hard which amazes me. I have been next to but not inside a new Slade, either.
The 2006 seats were much better. I looked at a used 2006 Denali that the dealer thought was worth as much as a new one. I really liked the looks of the last generation of Denali. This one just does not look right. I still like the pre 2000 Chevy Suburban best. The Denali does not seem as roomy in the back seat. None are as good as the old Suburban.
I love the new Sierra Denali. I have sat in one of those briefly this summer. I didn't find the seats hard but of course I'm use to sports seats. I owned one but I'm not much of a fan of the 99-2006 GMT-800's. My pops has a 98' Silverado, and I actually like it a lot. If I were to buy a used truck that would be the route I'd go. 95-98' had the roller lifters on the 350.
I got a very good deal on the 2007 Sequoia 4X4 limited. The MSRP was $51,684. The Internet manager knocked off $10k. Making it about $4000 under invoice.
I suppose that's a good deal. I guess I'm not much of a fan of the Sequoia. Now the 2008' Lexus LX 570 I'm a Toyota, Kool-Aid drinker when it comes to that SUV. :shades:
They just are not selling with the high price of gas. The GMC dealer I bought my PU truck from tried raping me when I tried trading my 2005 in on a 2006 Denali. So I did not really try dealing with them again.
Yeah a dealer trying to rip you off can ruin your whole experience with a brand. :mad:
There are things I do not like about the Sequoia. Like the NAV has no integrated XM available. I will live with that for a couple years. By then I hope there are some good diesel SUVs on the market. Maybe the small diesel that GM is getting ready to build.
Yeah, I read somewhere I think here on edmunds that their are plans to use that diesel in the half-tons. I can't remember if that engine is made here or by Isuzu ????? If it's made here then my question is where ????? Is it by UAW or CAW members ????
GM needs to go back to building tough trucks. This plastic bumper crap just does not get it with me. That is for foo foo trucks and SUVs.
Yeah, but they are trying to get the mileage up on them so the greenies don't have a cow.
The Denali also needs to offer 4WD with low range.
100% agree and a state of the art 4WD system wouldn't hurt the image either.
Maybe your friends in the UAW can mention to management that they lost a 5 time GM buyer because of plastic bumpers and thin sheet metal.
I will mention it to my great aunt. You would have better luck expressing to GM, the way you feel by using either faq@gmc or faq@chevrolet
Then again if they are like management I dealt with for 45 years they have a hard time finding their rearend with both hands.
I agree with you there pal. I personally would like them to use high polished aluminum bumpers which would add to the look and keep weight down. Does that sound like a compromise ?????
Does anyone know where the electric battery's for the Volt, are going to be made yet ???? Is GM, going to make em' here by UAW member's or are they going to be outsourced ???? :surprise:
Yeah a dealer trying to rip you off can ruin your whole experience with a brand.
Yeah they offered me $16k for my 2005 GMC hybrid, in trade on a $38k vehicle. I sold it on Craigslist for $23k cash. It did not turn me off on GM as much as the looks of the new trucks.
I have not looked at the LX570. The GX470 was a disappointment.
I could go for aluminum bumpers I suppose. I just like heavy steel and will accept the lower mileage. Of course a diesel would help that a lot.
Does anyone know where the electric battery's for the Volt, are going to be made yet ????
They still have to develop a battery that will work safely in the Volt. Li-Ion has some serious limitations. When and IF they solve the problems you can bet they will not be manufactured in the USA. Most batteries are now made in China where the environmental regulations are much more lax than here, Japan or the EU.
The UAW will do well to hold on to what they have.
No one likes to lose wages or benefits. It is the alternative that will determine the outcome. I took a cut in pay twice in 45 years. I did not like it. The alternatives were less to my liking. In the end we got more than we had hoped for. If the UAW cooperates and the Big 3 gain back some ground lost. They should be in better position to bargain in 4 years.
that doesn't surprise me. If you need to work so hard that you give yourself a heart attack-ack-ack-ack, then you might wanna consider flipping burgers at BurgerMaster or becoming a crossing guard. Maybe not.
I know, Toyota wants to build the best and brightest and how could we knock that? But if you're becoming a total grouch and yelling and screaming at everyone and refusing to go get some Paxil or Prozac, you might want to take a clue card and get out or slow down.
This is what I have always heard about with Japanese work loyalty and pride. An unsatisfactory result could result in hari-kari. Eeek.
rockford, the Aura or Astra are compact/midsize cars if I have my facts straight. They're not the kind that I feel like GM should have engineered back around 1984 and on. I mean, wasn't all the improving quality of the Civic and Corolla a strong enough clue for them? Gas prices continually move up and down so building competitive small cars is the best movement for them. Continuing to build good trucks and SUV's and the new Malibu looks great so far, but the Volt and similar designs need strong emphasis right now. With solid progress. Ghastly prices are not going to go down to $2.00/gal and lower ever again.
Ever. Never. Small is good. Small is better. Size is about as important as anything Kobe Bryant and/or Britney Spears and/or Paris Hilton say. As in not, notta, zip, zero and nether.
Congratulations on your new job rockford and fill us in what you may or might about it. Study hard!
In a union environment, the market has no say. Companies are held hostage to a contract that doesn't give them the flexibility to be competitive.
Well, in your "free" market, what stops companies from colluding and tring to manipulate wages??? Rumor has it that Toyota may just cut wages to keep their price advantage over the Big 3, considering the new contracts. How would you like to be the one seeing your standard of living take a hit like that, and have NO say, regardless of how good of an employee you are???
Companies AREN'T held hostage to ANY contract they AGREED to. If contract time comes up, they could ALWAYS hold their ground and say no. The union can go on strike to try and force the company's hand, but the company can always hire scabs to do the job during the strike.
Now yes, scabs will cause things to get VERY intense on the picket line, but they are just one example of the "tools" available to both sides during a disagreement. I don't believe scabs are outlawed in any state (nor should they be), but what IS important during a labor dispute is that both sides should be forced to keep talking.
My feeling is that if YOU want to cut my pay (or bennies), and WE (the union) say no, then while I'm on strike getting no pay, YOU and MY UNION had damn well better stay in the bargaining room and not come out until there is an agreement. That is why they all still draw a paycheck. The LAST thing I'd want to hear from my Bus. Agent is we're walking away from the table for a few days.
Anyhow, when was the last time you saw a union and a company have irreconcilable differences??? In most cases, just like a pro athlete contract negotiation, BOTH sides know what they WANT, and what they will SETTLE FOR. After some haggling, they invariably meet in the middle somewhere, and BOTH PARTIES AGREE (key word; AGREE) on a contract. No guns to anybody'd head, no manipulation, just an AGREEMENT. Just like you have w/ your boss.
Well, in your "free" market, what stops companies from colluding and tring to manipulate wages??? Rumor has it that Toyota may just cut wages to keep their price advantage over the Big 3, considering the new contracts. How would you like to be the one seeing your standard of living take a hit like that, and have NO say, regardless of how good of an employee you are???
Well thats just it, it is a RUMOR. So far, I have seen nothing reputable that points in that direction. You can make up anything you want, doesn't make it true. In a free market, wages tend to fall to a natural level. Yes, some companies pay more, other less. Toyota isn't about to unilaterally reduce wages. such a decision would affect productivity adversely. The execs at Toyota aren't stupid.
SPEEA white-collar strike in 2000 that the Rah! Rah! mentality of the union can have a negatory affect on union members' ability to think clearly. Collective Soul vs. thinking clearly on your own. I now know there is a huge difference. I remember specifically the subject of health-care benefits and the first contract offer from the company.
When the out-of-pocket expensees, deductibles, fees, payroll deduction amounts, etc., was all taken in to account and totalled up for each plan layer of each plan and offer, the first offer that was voted down outdid the second offer that the union finally voted for and accepted. And the union leadership had every SPEEA member feeling like they ought to be proud of theirselves, ya know, have an extra Jack and Coke for me because you all did so well, blah-blah-blah.
I could not believe what my eyes and ears were seeing and hearing. Furthermore, when I tried to explain same to my co-workers, I was treated like a smelly green alien off the crashed Roswell UFO on the ER slab being examined.
What a bunch of dorks. Believe you me, unions are to be taken with a large grain of sea salt. Shaken not stirred. I did my homework on each offer and I was correct on my calculations. I went over each plan thoroughly and it wasn't just my family and I's selections that I took in to account. Because the majority voted it down the better offer was rejected for both money and pay and health care benefits. Couldn't believe it.
Sometimes they cut off their foot to spite their noses. I am happy as a clam to not be in a union now in the Allied Health Care industry.
The Astra, I believe will be made in Mexico. GM, claims they can't build a competitive compact sedan here in the U.S. using UAW labor. I still think if GM, would focus hard they could manufactor a Civic beater Cobalt, and yes it be UAW made.
I don't believe scabs are outlawed in any state (nor should they be), but what IS important during a labor dispute is that both sides should be forced to keep talking.
Wow, you and I finally disagree on something related to union !!! :surprise:
My feeling is that if YOU want to cut my pay (or bennies), and WE (the union) say no, then while I'm on strike getting no pay, YOU and MY UNION had damn well better stay in the bargaining room and not come out until there is an agreement. That is why they all still draw a paycheck. The LAST thing I'd want to hear from my Bus. Agent is we're walking away from the table for a few days.
If negotiations are breaking down that day their is no point to stay at the bargaining table as nothing will be accomplished. The company, walked away from the bargaining table a couple of times while we were on strike and their was nothing we could do.
Well it appears the union workers at Boeing, are as happy as clams also. Both are making money and last time I looked Boeing, appears to be king once again of the airplane manufactoring industry. Glad we are #1 and strong in something in this country.
Comments
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
If I don't do my job the right way, I'll get fired.
If my company cannot make money, they will cut back on employees.
Guaranteeing someone a job,no matter what, in this day and age is ridiculous.
"collective bargaining" agreement so the company can't pull the rug out from underneath them. Having specific product being produced at a certain location is security. Just having them say "trust us" is no longer good enough. They are willing to sacrifice in other area's (wages & benefits) to gain that objective.
-Rocky
It handcuffs the company, and hurts the bottom line.
It is one of the reasons why the Big 3 aren't competitive.
A job is not a right. it has to make economic sense for an employer.
Now we have people telling us that auto workers should have no guarantees of job security. The Japanese manufacturers come here and don't want anything to do with unions. They want to be able to hire and fire at will when people become injured or older and not as agile as they would like. Somehow the worm has turned when we have people saying that's the best way: use the worker and then toss them out to become wards of the state.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thats the way it is.
Even the japanese don't have jobs for life anymore.
It didn't work.
In fact, it was one of the issues that nearly bankrupted Nissan.
The Europeans, also have auto unions. Your beloved Volvo, brand you love so much is a union made automobile. I like Volvo's and think for the most part they are fine vehicles and am very happy they are union made by well compensated people in Sweden. They have family's to support also. I'm glad Volvo's aren't made by slaves in some sweat shop. I hope they never are.
The bottom line is people in this country blame the small man and give the executives that are screwing up a free pass. :confuse: I guess I'll never understand that mentality and I suppose I'll never look the other way either when those executives pull the gold strings on their golden parachutes. :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Neither is owning or running a business. If your boss told you I'll pay you $250/wk plus $25 per new car sold (which I'm sure would be down from your current pay scale) REGARDLESS of how well you perform, just because HE wanted the money for himself, would you say "Yessir Massah, whatever you says" or tell him to go pound tar and find another dealership to work for?
My point is that you could have the best product in the world, but your not going to make ANY money unless you pay employees a proper wage and treat them well. IT IS a 2 way street, no matter what you think. The foreign car co.'s may not pay union wages AND bennies, but they STILL pay well in their areas, and THATS what keeps them happy and the unions at bay. If they cut their pay down to average or below average for their area, see how fast the unions get in. Why??? Lowered morale from an arbtrary pay cut.
Dogs may make a mistake by biting the hand that feeds them, but that doesn't make it OK for the owner to kick it in the ribs for no good reason (or any reason).
What the union wants - guaranteed employment no matter what, rigid job classifications, etc. - are not feasible in today's rapidly changing market. That's not bashing the union; that's merely stating a fact. And it doesn't even mean that the union has to go away; it means that the union must revise its expectations.
rockylee: The Japanese Autoworkers Union (JAW) still to this day have job gaurantees for their union employees. Sure the unions and country have loosened their "Made in Japan" restrictions a lot over the years but by and large their unions are a lot more militant than the UAW.
It is my understanding that both Mazda and Nissan laid off employees when they hit hard times, which was quite a shock to Japan. So those job guarantees may only apply when times are good, which really isn't much of a job guarantee at all.
And I would like to see proof that the Japanese unions are more militant than the UAW. My understanding, based on David Halberstam's book The Reckoning, and other sources, is that they resemble what we would call "company" unions, which were banned in the U.S. by the Wagner Act for being too closely controlled by management.
Now you are confusing market economics w/ union economics.
Of course I wouldn't work for that money, no one would.
That is where the market sets prices.
In a union environment, the market has no say.
Companies are held hostage to a contract that doesn't give them the flexibility to be competitive.
First of all, this thread is about the UAW, not management.
I also think managememt was stupid to agree to those contracts, but it looks like they are finally wising up.
Union (JAW) still to this day have job gaurantees for their union employees.
Check again. Japanese automakers HAVE laid off workers.
Volvo has a union,but they aren't above firing people when called for. They have in the past.
UAW as a topic does involve management. They negotiate with them. Management has made the decisions about product quality, sizes, FE, etc. through the years. Why wouldn't management be involved.
If Hosts Steve and Clairs feel it's not I'm sure one'll chime in here.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We're more concerned with keeping CarSpace an inviting place for people to feel comfortable to participate. To that end a couple of recent off-topic "personal" posts have been removed.
TheStar.com
Ford negotiations start when?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Ford recently said that it would consider keeping open four of the plants slated for closure in the downsizing announced earlier this year if it gets the concessions it wants.
It was a man named Carlo Ghosn that closed a couple of Nissan plants in the late 90s early 00s (in Japan) that really helped (the FM platform/VQ engine helped a lot as well) Nissan turn everything around. Mazda is supposedly the only part of FoMoCo that is making money largely because of the same type of thing. And both, of course, do a lot of manufacturing in this country. So it is possible, just ask Toyota or Honda.
As you say though, very un-Japanese like things to do, but a good example for 'Detroit', and a good reason that Ghosn was rumored to be headed to GM or Ford recently (not gonna happen). Guaranteed jobs? Not if Ghosn would have anything to say about it!
Well that mission has been about accomplished so it's time to conquer something else.
-Rocky
Oh they make $60K a year, start out with 6 weeks of vacation and every holiday off. Working for toyota, you live in toyota housing, kids go to toyota schools, and you and your family enjoy toyota vacations, your wife shopsat toyota owned grocery stores. Toyota City is like a large family and the benefits were earned by the JAW. The average Toyota-JAW worker makes $60K a year. They don't have the labor problems because they have all the advantages of national healthcare, manipulated currency, and their company gives them plenty of time off to spend with their family. I have read in the past that the UAW and JAW, have been working togeather towards common causes.
-rockylee
I don't think they are close yet. I was a died in the wool GM fan until the last few years. The 2005 GMC was made out of tin foil. It was paper thin. The new Denali was as bad. I bought the Sequoia because when you push on the doors they do not pop in and out like the GM. I am sure they have done it to make it lighter. I don't want a light vehicle. GM lost me on their latest try to beat the competition. My 1999 Suburban was a solid built vehicle.
That said, it has nothing to do with the UAW workers. They can only build what GM puts out for them. Maybe they are doing better with the Malibu etc.
You mentioned the Astra. What has that got to do with what they have the UAW working on? My 2005 GMC was proudly built by UAW workers in Indiana. My Sequoia was also built in Indiana. Too bad they gave the Union guys an inferior product to build.
If one complains to the leaders of the union local, the threatening response is, "Find me a company that will hire you for the wages you're being paid now." This is one of the fruits of "labor-management harmony," with an assist from the financial instability of nearby Mitsubishi Motors, and the workers of the world's number one corporation simply wither away.
Toyota has always suffused the workplace with a crisis consciousness in order to suppress wages. While I was working there, managers would regularly address the daily morning assembly, warning that Nissan was catching up, we've got to penetrate the American market, GM is powerful, don't let us end up like Mitsubishi. Toyota used this kind of manipulation to keep wages at average levels and to steadily increase its internal cash reserves.
The result: manufacturing plants in twenty-six countries, total assets of 22 trillion yen ($200 billion), and 2.2 trillion yen ($20 billion) cash-in-hand in the "Toyota Bank." Annual wage negotiations amount to getting together with the labor union to talk about "the priority of competitiveness," and the workers and subcontracting companies are left to suffer.
With a thoroughly defanged company union and no countervailing power within the company, Toyota has been afflicted with a series of scandals that are astounding for the home company of the chairman of the Business Federation. The Labor Standards Bureau ordered Toyota to desist from unpaid overtime, the Nagoya tax office discovered 5 billion yen ($45 million) in underpaid taxes, the company was accused of leaking test questions for the national auto maintenance certification exam--all petty, stopgap mess-ups, unworthy of a world-class corporation. In its mind, Toyota is still a provincial company.
The conversation among my friends turned to an accident one early morning in May, where a 33-year old worker was crushed to death in a metal press, followed by talk of suicides, some from overwork, among elite technicians in the development division and among leaders of the labor union. Over the last decade, they said, they've seen a dramatic increase in depression among their coworkers.
Since the only goal is to create a workplace environment that "brings about a further increase in Toyota's competitiveness," there is little chance that the brake will be applied to the rate of suicide. I spoke with TOGUCHI Masashi, 67, the son of a Toyota worker who grew up hearing talk of "another fatal accident at the factory today" in the bathhouse of the company housing. He has served seven terms in the city assembly as an anti-Toyota representative. "Living in Toyota City," he said, "if I am asked what kind of company Toyota is, I say, nobody knows."
That is just not true. Go push on the door or top of a new GM SUV. Then do the same with a Sequoia. Open and close the doors on both. My 2005 GMC doors never did close right. Dealership tried to get them aligned to no avail. The only thing the GM offered that was better was the XM radio. Why Toyota is so far behind in electronics is beyond me. The Escalade drove as well as the Sequoia. It should for $70k. Wife did not like the looks of the front end of the Escalade. I did not push on the roof or doors of the Caddy while the salesman was standing there.
Here's the link.
http://www.risingsunofnihon.com/2007/03/car_buyers_give_japanese_auto.html
Toyota Announces New Car Plant for Japan
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/5236830.html
-Rocky
I have "searched" both vehicles including the new Tundra, many times at Pantex. I have been a passenger in a Sequoia, a couple of times as a friend of mine at Pantex, owned one.
I'm calling B.S. on your claim. :confuse: The Sequoia, plastics looked "cheap" compared to their GM, counterparts and I'm amazed as your the first one to say that GM's sheet metal is thin. :surprise: I guess most of america disagree's with you.
-Rocky
Well you are one of the few who aren't blaming the problems you see with the vehicles on the UAW workers. I personally am in love with the GMT-900 SUV's and Trucks but I guess you found area's you didn't like. If the new Denali, wouldget the Bose 5.1 and some cooled seats that might be enough for me to pick it as my #1 autombile choice when I get back on my feet.
-Rocky
P.S. I was officially hired today as a Insurance Agent. I have lottsa training to look forward to but the reward is worth it all.
What kind of insurance? Life & Health or Property & Casualty, or all of the above. Who is the company and how would you describe their training program?
I did not drive the new Denali. I sat in it and did not like the seats, too hard. Same with the new Escalade. The 2006 seats were much better. I looked at a used 2006 Denali that the dealer thought was worth as much as a new one. I really liked the looks of the last generation of Denali. This one just does not look right. I still like the pre 2000 Chevy Suburban best. The Denali does not seem as roomy in the back seat. None are as good as the old Suburban.
I got a very good deal on the 2007 Sequoia 4X4 limited. The MSRP was $51,684. The Internet manager knocked off $10k. Making it about $4000 under invoice. They just are not selling with the high price of gas. The GMC dealer I bought my PU truck from tried raping me when I tried trading my 2005 in on a 2006 Denali. So I did not really try dealing with them again.
There are things I do not like about the Sequoia. Like the NAV has no integrated XM available. I will live with that for a couple years. By then I hope there are some good diesel SUVs on the market. Maybe the small diesel that GM is getting ready to build.
GM needs to go back to building tough trucks. This plastic bumper crap just does not get it with me. That is for foo foo trucks and SUVs.
The Denali also needs to offer 4WD with low range.
Maybe your friends in the UAW can mention to management that they lost a 5 time GM buyer because of plastic bumpers and thin sheet metal. Then again if they are like management I dealt with for 45 years they have a hard time finding their rearend with both hands.
Thank-you, euphonium
What kind of insurance? Life & Health or Property & Casualty, or all of the above.
Life insurance, Annuities, Long-Term Care, Short-Term Care and Home Health Care. We also provide a Medicare Supplement. We also offer a variety of other services like a cancer policy.
Who is the company
Bankers Life and Casualty Company.
Company Motto: "We specialize in seniors"
and how would you describe their training program?
Training Magazine: Top 100 Training Programs in the country.
The company has been around since 1879'
I have a lot to learn but it will make me feel good inside helping others.
Now to get back on topic:
Ford, UAW eye to eye on job cuts
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/25/news/companies/ford_uaw_cuts.ap/index.htm?sectio- - - - - n=money_latest
UAW's Attention Shifts To Ford
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/25/AR2007102502653.- - - - - html
Chrysler UAW contract wins crucial backing
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071025/us_nm/chrysler_uaw_dc_4
The issues surrounding the UAW, Ford, and Chrysler, seems to be really heating up. :surprise:
-Rocky
Thanks gagrice, I will give my best effort.
I did not drive the new Denali. I sat in it and did not like the seats, too hard. Same with the new Escalade.
I actually haven't had the chance to sit in a new Denali. :sick: I heard about the Slade, seats being hard which amazes me. I have been next to but not inside a new Slade, either.
The 2006 seats were much better. I looked at a used 2006 Denali that the dealer thought was worth as much as a new one. I really liked the looks of the last generation of Denali. This one just does not look right. I still like the pre 2000 Chevy Suburban best. The Denali does not seem as roomy in the back seat. None are as good as the old Suburban.
I love the new Sierra Denali. I have sat in one of those briefly this summer. I didn't find the seats hard but of course I'm use to sports seats.
I got a very good deal on the 2007 Sequoia 4X4 limited. The MSRP was $51,684. The Internet manager knocked off $10k. Making it about $4000 under invoice.
I suppose that's a good deal. I guess I'm not much of a fan of the Sequoia. Now the 2008' Lexus LX 570 I'm a Toyota, Kool-Aid drinker when it comes to that SUV. :shades:
They just are not selling with the high price of gas. The GMC dealer I bought my PU truck from tried raping me when I tried trading my 2005 in on a 2006 Denali. So I did not really try dealing with them again.
Yeah a dealer trying to rip you off can ruin your whole experience with a brand. :mad:
There are things I do not like about the Sequoia. Like the NAV has no integrated XM available. I will live with that for a couple years. By then I hope there are some good diesel SUVs on the market. Maybe the small diesel that GM is getting ready to build.
Yeah, I read somewhere I think here on edmunds that their are plans to use that diesel in the half-tons.
GM needs to go back to building tough trucks. This plastic bumper crap just does not get it with me. That is for foo foo trucks and SUVs.
Yeah, but they are trying to get the mileage up on them so the greenies don't have a cow.
The Denali also needs to offer 4WD with low range.
100% agree and a state of the art 4WD system wouldn't hurt the image either.
Maybe your friends in the UAW can mention to management that they lost a 5 time GM buyer because of plastic bumpers and thin sheet metal.
I will mention it to my great aunt. You would have better luck expressing to GM, the way you feel by using either faq@gmc or faq@chevrolet
Then again if they are like management I dealt with for 45 years they have a hard time finding their rearend with both hands.
I agree with you there pal. I personally would like them to use high polished aluminum bumpers which would add to the look and keep weight down. Does that sound like a compromise ?????
Does anyone know where the electric battery's for the Volt, are going to be made yet ???? Is GM, going to make em' here by UAW member's or are they going to be outsourced ???? :surprise:
-Rocky
Hallelujah?
Yeah they offered me $16k for my 2005 GMC hybrid, in trade on a $38k vehicle. I sold it on Craigslist for $23k cash. It did not turn me off on GM as much as the looks of the new trucks.
I have not looked at the LX570. The GX470 was a disappointment.
I could go for aluminum bumpers I suppose. I just like heavy steel and will accept the lower mileage. Of course a diesel would help that a lot.
Does anyone know where the electric battery's for the Volt, are going to be made yet ????
They still have to develop a battery that will work safely in the Volt. Li-Ion has some serious limitations. When and IF they solve the problems you can bet they will not be manufactured in the USA. Most batteries are now made in China where the environmental regulations are much more lax than here, Japan or the EU.
The UAW will do well to hold on to what they have.
IIRC the smaller diesel (not small, it's supposed to be a 4.5L V8) is going to be built at Tonawanda.
http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2007/06/11/daily24.html?from_rss=1
I know, Toyota wants to build the best and brightest and how could we knock that? But if you're becoming a total grouch and yelling and screaming at everyone and refusing to go get some Paxil or Prozac, you might want to take a clue card and get out or slow down.
This is what I have always heard about with Japanese work loyalty and pride. An unsatisfactory result could result in hari-kari. Eeek.
rockford, the Aura or Astra are compact/midsize cars if I have my facts straight. They're not the kind that I feel like GM should have engineered back around 1984 and on. I mean, wasn't all the improving quality of the Civic and Corolla a strong enough clue for them? Gas prices continually move up and down so building competitive small cars is the best movement for them. Continuing to build good trucks and SUV's and the new Malibu looks great so far, but the Volt and similar designs need strong emphasis right now. With solid progress. Ghastly prices are not going to go down to $2.00/gal and lower ever again.
Ever. Never. Small is good. Small is better. Size is about as important as anything Kobe Bryant and/or Britney Spears and/or Paris Hilton say. As in not, notta, zip, zero and nether.
Congratulations on your new job rockford and fill us in what you may or might about it. Study hard!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Great minds think alike. That was my first reaction, too.
Companies are held hostage to a contract that doesn't give them the flexibility to be competitive.
Well, in your "free" market, what stops companies from colluding and tring to manipulate wages??? Rumor has it that Toyota may just cut wages to keep their price advantage over the Big 3, considering the new contracts. How would you like to be the one seeing your standard of living take a hit like that, and have NO say, regardless of how good of an employee you are???
Companies AREN'T held hostage to ANY contract they AGREED to. If contract time comes up, they could ALWAYS hold their ground and say no. The union can go on strike to try and force the company's hand, but the company can always hire scabs to do the job during the strike.
Now yes, scabs will cause things to get VERY intense on the picket line, but they are just one example of the "tools" available to both sides during a disagreement. I don't believe scabs are outlawed in any state (nor should they be), but what IS important during a labor dispute is that both sides should be forced to keep talking.
My feeling is that if YOU want to cut my pay (or bennies), and WE (the union) say no, then while I'm on strike getting no pay, YOU and MY UNION had damn well better stay in the bargaining room and not come out until there is an agreement. That is why they all still draw a paycheck. The LAST thing I'd want to hear from my Bus. Agent is we're walking away from the table for a few days.
Anyhow, when was the last time you saw a union and a company have irreconcilable differences??? In most cases, just like a pro athlete contract negotiation, BOTH sides know what they WANT, and what they will SETTLE FOR. After some haggling, they invariably meet in the middle somewhere, and BOTH PARTIES AGREE (key word; AGREE) on a contract. No guns to anybody'd head, no manipulation, just an AGREEMENT. Just like you have w/ your boss.
Well thats just it, it is a RUMOR.
So far, I have seen nothing reputable that points in that direction.
You can make up anything you want, doesn't make it true.
In a free market, wages tend to fall to a natural level.
Yes, some companies pay more, other less.
Toyota isn't about to unilaterally reduce wages. such a decision would affect productivity adversely.
The execs at Toyota aren't stupid.
When the out-of-pocket expensees, deductibles, fees, payroll deduction amounts, etc., was all taken in to account and totalled up for each plan layer of each plan and offer, the first offer that was voted down outdid the second offer that the union finally voted for and accepted. And the union leadership had every SPEEA member feeling like they ought to be proud of theirselves, ya know, have an extra Jack and Coke for me because you all did so well, blah-blah-blah.
I could not believe what my eyes and ears were seeing and hearing. Furthermore, when I tried to explain same to my co-workers, I was treated like a smelly green alien off the crashed Roswell UFO on the ER slab being examined.
What a bunch of dorks. Believe you me, unions are to be taken with a large grain of sea salt. Shaken not stirred. I did my homework on each offer and I was correct on my calculations. I went over each plan thoroughly and it wasn't just my family and I's selections that I took in to account. Because the majority voted it down the better offer was rejected for both money and pay and health care benefits. Couldn't believe it.
Sometimes they cut off their foot to spite their noses. I am happy as a clam to not be in a union now in the Allied Health Care industry.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
-Rocky
I will study hard.
The Astra, I believe will be made in Mexico. GM, claims they can't build a competitive compact sedan here in the U.S. using UAW labor. I still think if GM, would focus hard they could manufactor a Civic beater Cobalt, and yes it be UAW made.
-Rocky
Wow, you and I finally disagree on something related to union !!! :surprise:
My feeling is that if YOU want to cut my pay (or bennies), and WE (the union) say no, then while I'm on strike getting no pay, YOU and MY UNION had damn well better stay in the bargaining room and not come out until there is an agreement. That is why they all still draw a paycheck. The LAST thing I'd want to hear from my Bus. Agent is we're walking away from the table for a few days.
If negotiations are breaking down that day their is no point to stay at the bargaining table as nothing will be accomplished. The company, walked away from the bargaining table a couple of times while we were on strike and their was nothing we could do.
-Rocky
-Rocky
But Can They Sell The Cars?