United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Regardless, the trends show many are moving away form Unions. Like it or not.

    Regards,
    OW
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    As unions grew, the country was in an upswing. As the American standard of living declines, unions are on a decline. Like it or not, at one time America was the envy of the world. We as Americans can only hope for a rebirth. The insanity of envy will not make someone better off. If you move on and not worry about the prosperity your union/UAW neighbor, you will be able to concentrate on the big picture. UAW members don't envy and or begrudge the CEO, its like the dog trying to catch its tail.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    Boeing and their decision to build a second Dreamliner production line in South Carolina.

    Is that the very same plane, which is over two years late? This is a total disservice to the shareholders. It has been coined the 7LATE7. What a bunch of losers leading such a big corporation.

    Two years late, Boeing’s Dreamliner jet makes its maiden test flight this spring—straight into the turbulence of the financial crisis. Boeing is losing billions in canceled Dreamliner orders and has been repeatedly passed over for Pentagon contracts. Can it break its losing streak?

    Now, on the eve of its big launch, the Dreamliner carries the company’s hopes of recapturing lost revenue and repairing the damage to its image. If the plane passes the rigorous yearlong series of flight tests that begin this spring, it could lead Boeing out of the financial crisis. But if the Dreamliner fails, Boeing could become the General Motors of the skies, with enormous repercussions for the U.S. economy and the U.S. manufacturing base. Although Boeing announced in January that it was laying off 10,000 workers, it still employs more than 150,000 people in the U.S. and is the nation’s No. 1 exporter. About 70 percent of Boeing shares are held by institutions, including all of the major mutual funds and Bank of America Corp., its biggest shareholder.

    http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2008/10/boeings_misconduct.php

    http://www.portfolio.com/business-news/portfolio/2009/04/22/Boeing-and-Dreamline- r-Troubles/

    http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/11/09/boeings-move-to-south-carolina-cuts-787s-- costs-but-risks-labo/

    All the Boeing News That's Fit to Put in a Blog Post
    While a former Boeing engineer faces the United States' first ever economic espionage trial--for allegedly stealing space program secrets and giving them to China (Beijing, we have a problem!)--the company as a whole lost a big federal case. A US Court of Appeals ruled that the government could cancel its contract with Boeing and General Dynamics to develop an A-12 Fighter Jet (an advanced model of this) after the companies' execs admitted that they weren't going to be able to meet the agreed-up
    June 3, 2009

    What a Difference a Few Days Makes
    In its budget presentation last Monday, the city said that, locally speaking, this recession shouldn't be as bad as the last one. In the nine days since, the Defense Secretary announced a budget that would slash Boeing's defense programs, Boeing announced layoffs (with experts predicting more), and now new numbers confirm previous predictions: after the most precipitous decline in over three decades, the state's unemployment rate--which is now higher than the national one--is at 9.2% and likely
    April 15, 2009

    Dubai Debt Threatens Boeing
    Dubai, the very picture of modesty and moderation, feels the credit crunch.​Have global economy. Have global economic problems. Boeing's recent move to South Carolina may have saved the jet-maker a couple bucks on non-union labor. But it looks like that money might be needed immediately now that the Middle East's Disnelyand-for-the-rich appears to be dead broke. Dubai just asked for a six-month IOU on a $60 billion debt. News that's troublesome for a host of global companies, including t
    November 27, 2009

    Reader: I'll Wait a Year Before Flying the Dreamliner
    Courtesy of BoeingWhat if Boeing offered you a free business class upgrade, Sharon?​Reader Sharon responds to Boeing 787 Dreamliner to Fly on December 18th. Proud as she is, she says overseas production will keep her off a 787 for at least 12 months. "It will be great to see this plane in the air - at last. I'm a former Boeing employee and wife of retired 30 year Boeing engineer (including the 787). Boeing made a HUGE error parting the production out to outside companies - France, Japan,
    December 7, 2009
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    A UAW fork lift operator is not worth $30 per hour when a non union fork lift operator in the same town is making $10 an hour.

    I'm certain that an Asian could do phone wire in Alaska for a mere $10 a day. However, there is unwritten ethical behavior to which we heeded at one time. Or maybe the Cold War was a good thing? In any case you fail to make a reasonable point and or something which is anything other than the race to the bottom. You have enjoyed the fruits of capitalism and want the next generations to race to the bottom, oh please. Toil for the least amount, an unreasonable amount is not an option. I assure you that there will total revolution and perhaps a redistribution of the wealth if that is the case. The American public will morph into something other than the pathetic existence you offer. There is a whole new breed of wildcat out there. Tree and or corner the next generation and see for yourself. This is the very reason the workers of the past organized and the UAW grew so strong. This new generation will toil hard and expect/demand just compensation to play even harder. There are time in which social forces are much greater than market forces. Remember its so much easier to organize these days (cell phones, instant messengers, internet) as sure as Obama resides as Commander and Chief of the Armed services.
  • verdugoverdugo Member Posts: 2,288
    UAW members don't envy and or begrudge the CEO, its like the dog trying to catch its tail.

    That is soooo not true. There is plenty of resentment/envy about CEO pay in this country (not just at unions). Just look at pay limits imposed at companies that took govt money, or the effort to tax AIG bonuses, or England's recent decision to heavily tax the bonuses of the finance industry.
  • verdugoverdugo Member Posts: 2,288
    gagrice's post:
    A UAW fork lift operator is not worth $30 per hour when a non union fork lift operator in the same town is making $10 an hour.

    dallasdude's reply
    I'm certain that an Asian could do phone wire in Alaska for a mere $10 a day.

    Wake up to the new reality. Workers in the US (skilled and unskilled) are not competing with non-union states. They are competing with the entire world. You can say that it's not fair, but you also have to keep in mind that companies now sell to the entire world.

    The world has changed. You either adapt, or you die. Does it suck? It sure does in the short term, but the future can be bright. Don't you think that people in the horse carriage business complained about cars? Sure, but society as a whole is better off.

    I'm aware that individuals suffer, and I'm not discounting their suffering. But life is tough for everybody. If you only have a high school education and your only skill is to drive a forklift, I'm sorry, but you don't deserve $30/hr when somebody can do that job for 1/10 of it.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Wake up to the new reality. Workers in the US (skilled and unskilled) are not competing with non-union states. They are competing with the entire world."

    I'm not saying I totally agree or disagree with this statement, but the last administration loved to throw out the "global economy" statement when it was good for them, but when they wanted to go into Iraq and the "global community" protested, they pretty much said screw everybody, we will do what's good for America.

    Well you CAN'T have it both ways. If we truly are a world leader, then we need a world class economy with world class wages. We can't afford 10% unemployment and God knows how much underemployment in this country just so the Chinese in China or the Indians in India can work.

    The horse carriage business has nothing to do with this (2 of the most successful car companies during the first half of the last century.... Studebaker and International Harvester got their start during the HC era). they adapted. What bothers me is the downward pressure put on wages in this country NOT based solely what you know or how complicated a job is or isn't, but just based solely on the fact that some schlep in a 3rd world country will do it for pennies.

    China and India's economies are booming for one reason; they do the work making products for US, work that WE used to do.

    Our economy boomed for MOST of the last 25 years for 1 reason: CREDIT!!! The average Joe BORROWED his/her way to prosperity.

    How's THAT working out for us now????
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    Why should the masses "adapt" to competing with glorified slave labor wages and a third world standard of living so a chosen few can reap windfall profits? The latter is what all of this is REALLY about. :sick:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm certain that an Asian could do phone wire in Alaska for a mere $10 a day.

    That sounds a bit racist to me. I would bet an illegal alien could do your job for less also. And they would not have to put up with 40-50 below zero weather to do it. Having worked as a fork lift operator for Ma Bell in 1962 I do know what it takes and I was paid very close to minimum wage to do that job as a CWA union member. The UAW has screwed America out of having two good automakers. Ford may survive by sending the bulk of the work to Mexico. And the UAW workers and retirees only have to look in the mirror to see who is to blame.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You keep repeating that. I see a lot of folks in this country making big bucks for very little work. The report is out that the average Federal worker is knocking down $71k per year on our tax dollars. I know the state workers in CA make a ton of money. The middle class in China is now numbering more than our entire population. Those are not people living on slave wages. I know you realize we are in this with no way to change. Hope and Change is a campaign slogan and nothing more. He did try to help the UAW for getting out some votes. But they had screwed the company so far into the ground that the US government cannot save them.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    I see a lot of people with collapsing real incomes, mounting debt, and no financial means for the future, and a lot of people who are unable to find enough work at all. I won't deny the excess of federal compensation - especially after the age of 55 or so, but most people aren't overpaid public sector slackers.

    Never forget, none of this is about altruism. The globalization scheme was not hatched to help the less developed world, it was hatched to help those who are already in the elite. The "middle class in China" isn't relevant, and likely isn't what would be considered middle class in the developed world. Why should we sacrifice so they and the top 1% who has their finger on the button can benefit? We should be thankful those Chinese are dumb enough to buy our debt, I guess. If we go down, so do they. Pretty slick.

    There may appear to be no way to change, but there will be a future with social strife and upheaval, you can bank on it. With the right future history, the pendulum can swing back...but it will not be a clean transition. On the path of today, the only change we will see is what we are left with in our pockets...no matter who wins an election.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Never forget, none of this is about altruism. The globalization scheme was not hatched to help the less developed world, it was hatched to help those who are already in the elite.

    I agree 100%. I just think you mis-identified them as wealthy GOP when they are really the Liberal elitist. Have you ever wondered why so many Jews in this country are tied to the Democrat elitist Party? Yet it is the GOP that tries to protect Israel and their right to survive. The Democratic party is more a religion than a political party. It is based on emotion and not logic or what might be good for the USA. The bulk of the GOP are small business men struggling to keep their heads above water. I talk to many every day. And to a person they hate what is happening to our country under this Congress and administration. When you ask who they would like to replace Obama. It is a mixed bag of confusion. The two I hear most are Ron Paul and Sarah Palin. Romney is one of the bad guys. He might as well be a Democrat elitist. He fits the mold.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, try to get a guy to even show up for work at that pay scale let alone show up sober. That's why so many kids are slingin' rocks on the corner instead of working for peanuts.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    Workers in the US (skilled and unskilled) are not competing with non-union states. They are competing with the entire world.

    Yes one cab certainly see the recent outrage by the well educate IBM employees as the carpet is pull out on them. Just how does one compete with child labor? Prison labor? Crimes against the environment/humanity? All the American workers seeks is a level playing field. Being it that America is the number one consumer nation on the planet, we could certainly boycott any multi-national to their knees. You have to first acknowledge that these corporations are not so patriotic. They as a separate entity on to themselves have and will continue to be sold off as to the highest bidder as a prostitute would. Its no secret that we have to teach ethics in colleges these days. Even so, they continue to lack the character of days gone by. Just because market forces put pressure behavior, we must show restraint. Just as there is demand for drugs, prostitution, and many other vices- we have to have moral standards to be considered civilized.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    You can't borrow your way to prosperity. I laugh at all these knuckleheads out there spending their meager wages at Wal~Mart on a whole bunch of Chinese-manufactured garbage this season. If they really cared about their loved ones, they wouldn't be shopping their families, friends, and neighbors out of a job. The economy worked when Americans were making the stuff here and selling it in local stores. Most of the time, they were buying it with cash. Now, nobody has a job and they're splurging on credit. What happens when the credit runs out and the bills are due? TSHTF, that's what!!! :mad:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah!!! Shouldn't we try to pull the rest of the world up to us rather than us plunging to their standards? Hmmmm! The chosen few? Maybe we'll use cheap off-spec dull Chinese manufactured guillotine blades on these scumbags? It'll make the suffering last longer.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The middle class in China is probably the equivalent of a poor college student with a moped in America. Well, I used to live off $5 a week in ramen noodles at one time and and share an apartment with four other guys. I guess this is what it's like to be the Chinese middle class.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    There is plenty of resentment/envy about CEO pay in this country (not just at unions).

    There is no sin in bring up CEO compensation to negotiate better compensation for union represented employees. The disservice is being done to shareholders when a CEO is over compensated and or this competition entails taking ill advised risk to justify the compensation in itself. The system becomes one of self destruction at some point. One could argue, in view of the bail-outs, that communism isn't the only form of gov't to have failed. Bail-outs aren't capitalist at all, but are just state sponsored socialism. The system is corrupted/tainted by external forces. Most of these come from the lobby system (influence buying) with deep pockets. As such, you have all kinds of folks greasing the wheels of gov't. There is certainly well documented evidence of managed care, drug companies, the AMA, and many others victory in the influence business. They contribute to elections. Wine and dine, buy Madison Ave ad men, and supply perks to the folks we vote for. There absolutely should be a big labor component to the lobby system. Even those who aren't in the unions benefit from victories by labor/the UAW.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    Jews in this country are tied to the Democrat elitist Party?

    Speaking of racism.

    You certainly have not considered the large Jewish support the neo conservatives enjoyed. Since, the ill-fated compassionate conservative GOP blunders, I'm not too sure folks want to be GOP members these days. Other than Cheney and a few delusional sheep, the GOP is history.

    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31594

    http://www.amazon.com/Neoconservative-Revolution-Jewish-Intellectuals-Shaping/dp- - /0521836565

    Most well to do Democrats are admired and go on to be true humanitarians. Bill/Melinda Gates, Warren Buffet, George Soros, Hollywood elite (as you describe them), and many others are out to help mankind. Yeah, we have disagreements from time to time. However, all of those other wannbes are pathetic self rationalizing poster children for 100% genuine fecal matter keeping my UAW brother and sisters and mankind down for unearned profits. Holding on to all that money the GOP got them skin flint misers, whom refuse to fuel the very economy that they profited from.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Any more "political" posts will be moved over to the Off Topic Chatter board.

    UAW please. Thanks.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    The UAW's image problem stems from the fact that it has been arguably much better at doing its job than the Big Three management teams have been at theirs. Over the past 60 years, many of the benefits that both blue- and white-collar workers hold dear were either won or expanded by the UAW. That includes pensions, early retirement, overtime, total health-care coverage and paid holidays.

    "This attitude, targeting the UAW as the bad guy here or the reason the auto industry is in rough shape — they think that's unjustified, not warranted," says David Lipsky, professor of dispute resolution at Cornell's School of Industrial and Labor Relations. And with some reason, says Lipsky, "they were innovative and creative: they built a comfortable lifestyle for middle-class Americans.i>

    Reuther, who began to worry about rising health-care costs as far back as the 1950s, feared that the auto companies would one day not be able to meet their obligations.

    http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1882376,00.html
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    2 of the big three bit the Bankruptcy dust and the third had to mortgage it's guts out to survive.

    The UAW and the management had it coming. No more free UAW ride going forward.

    Regards,
    OW
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Here's the problem as I see it; its not wage rate, rather work rules and featherbedding, as well as a "us against them" attitude. Also, unfortunately more than a few people remember crap like UAW worker pop cans in their fender wells even though it happened years ago and I think the workers wised up to the stupidity of that type stuff in a hurry, but the damage was done. Vandalizing foreign nameplates in public parking lots in places like Detroit isn't a smart move either. It won't spark D3 vehicle buying, just more UAW resentment and buyer backlash toward D3.

    I agree that a lot of management types made mistakes and raped companies on excessive salary and bonus. Another problem creeping into D3 is that the UAW gets much better benefits than nonunionized workers, such as most white collar, which is leading to morale and attitude issues in the companies, just as oversized benefits to senior leadership has done.

    Personally, I think the UAW attitude toward Ford in places like Kansas City is sad. Ford has made a lot of sacrifice and effort in turning the company around. The UAW should give Ford the same deal as GM and Chrysler. After all, isn't the UAW the one who demands pattern bargaining at contract time?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    strike the big boys or we ain't gonna know what else ta do for a livin', Vern!

    There's something desperate and dust bowlish about these rough-hewn boys at Boeing's, these IAM boys. Same as the GM, Ford's and Chrys-Fiat-ler UAW boys. To be let go from one of these behemoths is not a death sentence, for some of us former union members who were just pinned by the greedy union thugs at the orientation meeting at Boeing's, SPEEA or IAM, being let go has opened up another world of work and play and enjoyment.

    I never thought I'd be working and living in the beautiful state of Arizona, and as I checked my Mom's local temperature in Mukilteo(right next to the Boeing Everett, WA widebody jet plant I spent 20+ years toiling at)of 30 degrees, I'm dern glad I'm here in the SW desert!

    Granted I had to study my butt off for pert-near two years to get my Allied Healthcare Degree, but, and it's a big but, I'm there. Always learning.

    Never felt like I needed to force the Big Boeing's Boys to see it my way or our way. They'll just pop another raspberry jelly donut and sip some more Starbuck's french roast and laugh at you as they turn to go to another meeting. Take another phone call. Unions are past due being fruitful and helpful...nor are they ready to take on the new world order of economics. So yesterday. Drowning and flailing.

    Gasp. Respiratory Therapy, room XXX. :sick:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    Ford did mortgage itself back in 2006, prior to the current economic downturn. fact is that Ford is much less attractive balance sheet wise than GM. However, you seem to think that that Toyota and Honda are running at capacity. Your no more UAW is simply wishful thinking. Because the UAW is not even close any bankruptcy. This may be the perfect storm for a rebirth of the UAW. Last I saw UAW built cars were being built and sold.

    The Wagner world was given a second lease on life by a peculiar feature of Congress's 1975 fuel economy law. Known as the "two fleets" rule, it effectively forces Detroit to make its cheap small cars in high-wage domestic UAW factories, even if it means losing money on every car. The rule has no fuel-economy function. Its only purpose is to shield the UAW monopoly inside each Detroit auto maker from global labor competition.

    You wouldn't have noticed, but a legislative accident two years ago almost stripped away the two fleets rule. A couple of Republican senators from the South took the lead in crafting the Senate's new fuel economy bill, and built it to please Nissan, which had railed against two fleets for its own reasons.i>

    In the final bill, to no one's surprise, two fleets was quietly restored by Rep. John Dingell and Illinois Sen. Obama (among others) as a political favor to the United Auto Workers.

    The UAW's Mr. Gettelfinger had testified, coyly, during Congressional hearings that failing to renew two fleets might cost 17,000 auto workers jobs building small cars. He didn't say that two fleets is in fact the fulcrum by which, for the past 30 years, the UAW has been able to defeat globalization.

    He didn't say two fleets was the sine qua non for the past generation of the UAW's power to suck the Big Three dry.

    Mr. Obama played the tough guy in getting rid of Mr. Wagoner, but he won't go after the labor monopoly. In fact, the union will emerge with a stronger grip on Detroit -- because it will be a major shareholder in a reorganized GM.

    The irony is that Detroit has given plenty of evidence that it can make money, even with UAW overhead. Three of the top seven best-selling vehicles in February were Ford, Chevy and Dodge pickups.


    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123853988781575499.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Reuther, who began to worry about rising health-care costs as far back as the 1950s, feared that the auto companies would one day not be able to meet their obligations.

    So why no escape clauses in the contract to keep the companies viable and solvent? I am not arguing that the UAW did a poor job negotiating contracts. They left too much to chance. They also strangled management with work rules. Then when the market spoke they still went on strike and stuck the final nail in the coffin. The reason I think Reuther and his henchmen belong in H*** is over signing onto a Ponzi scheme for retirement pension and Health care. The poor ignorant workers are fat dumb and happy, till it is time to retire and they find out what the UAW did to them.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    After all, isn't the UAW the one who demands pattern bargaining at contract time?

    Is that the same as the going rate? Thats how prices/wages are determined in a capitalist society. More clearly stated, its supply and demand. The featherbedding and work rules are supported by no empirical evidence. Just some GOP propoganda put out there to avoid the real issue. Much like the illegal aliens taking away your jobs, and all the while they are shipping them overseas at an alarming rate. I just can't imagine that the Carolina's shipped out hundreds of thousands of textile and furniture jobs, now they have a less than 3% hispanic population, hence, they assume its the illegals getting their jobs. County bumpkins, rubes, and yokels can't think for themselves and want to believe that their betters will mind their best interest. The problem is that as soon as the masses learned to read, the GOP started public relations as means to control the thinking or lack of thinking by the masses. I certainly can think for myself and yet to find a soda can in my cars. Those cans and bottles have a hefty deposit in Michigan and to my suprise, Michigan isn't littered with soda cans/bottles.

    Be honest, were they pop cans or were they beer cans you found in your car? To the best of your knowledge, do your teens drive that car? Or are you repeating something you heard and or read? Are you a UAW worker? Do you know any UAW workers? Is there really any difference between the average American worker and the average UAW worker?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The featherbedding and work rules are supported by no empirical evidence.

    I know you can't say that with a straight face. What do you call 2200 pages of work rules in the Ford UAW contract? It takes about 2 pages for wage scales and another 5 pages for sick leave and vacation. Maybe five for grievance procedures. Five for layoff and rehire. What's with the other 2100 plus pages. Oh, right there are 400 blank pages for taking notes.

    The GOP has nothing to do with letting the cat out of the bag on Union featherbedding. In 1966 I was trying to get on with the phone company in Anchorage. I ran into a guy in San Diego that lived in Anchorage. He said the IBEW that I was trying to get on with was nothing but a hot bed of feather bedders. And when I finally was hired and moved to Anchorage by RCA, I found out for myself first hand that he was totally right. And it had nothing to do with politics. It was just a known fact around Anchorage. Much like the UAW feather bedding by many of the older workers. You know the ones that have sold the new hires down the river along with the retirees?

    Is there really any difference between the average American worker and the average UAW worker?

    Just that the UAW worker is many times over paid for the level of expertise. No such thing as a Fork lift operator worth $30 per hour. And we had them in the Teamsters and it was always a bone of contention. That is an off the street job that takes all of an hour to learn. If you are at all coordinated.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Be honest, were they pop cans or were they beer cans you found in your car? To the best of your knowledge, do your teens drive that car?

    I didn't know teenagers drove around with welding equipment.

    Is that the same as the going rate? Thats how prices/wages are determined in a capitalist society. More clearly stated, its supply and demand.

    Pattern bargaining means that the UAW wants essentially the same deal from each of the D3. I don't think the UAW and D3 negotiate a deal based on wage rate data. I'm sure D3 would take that if offered though! The UAW makes demands, the company cannot replace the union workers so they have to calculate whether they can live with it or its cheaper to take a strike until the union demand is lowered. The only thing that is not really pattern bargained in D3 UAW contracts are some local issues or a few unique comany union circumstances at the time.

    So tell me, why do Ford UAW workers want to screw over their company with a less competitive deal than they gave GM? Why did they recently vote to strike and potentially hurt a financially vulnerable Ford right now? First, it puts Ford at a competitive disadvantage. Second, the extra money Ford workers are getting vice the competition directly takes away money that can be used for product development or promotion. Third, the longer that situation exists, the more likely the need for workers at Ford will decrease. Its UAW short term gain at the expense of longer term jobs and security. I don't get it? It strikes me as the same dumb "us versus them" mentality.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Well. your missing the big picture. Market share shows UAW built is heading for a crash landing!

    image
    image

    You can hedge all you want but the facts show that UAW power is falling like stone. :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The Japanese clunker thread has been moved to the clunker discussion:

    okal, "Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?" #4111, 12 Dec 2009 4:59 pm
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Is that the same as the going rate? Thats how prices/wages are determined in a capitalist society. More clearly stated, its supply and demand.

    The going rate has nothing to do with supply and demand. Around here, the going rate is really the going union wage for a job. That's why shovel handlers are paid upwards of $15.00/hour on a state job, even though they may be standing around much of the time (those dang featherbedding rules again) doing nothing. And why, at the same time, if it were truly a capitalistic system,those maning the shovels would be making minimum wage - because that's what the job is worth!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    UAW says so.

    Ford, however, has reported an $834-million profit for the first half of the year, the Detroit Free Press reported Monday.

    A large portion of the gains came from one-time debt restructuring and the company still carries a debt load of $35 billion.

    Two union locals have approved the new contract, but other union members remained skeptical.

    "If you want to be competitive with GM and Chrysler, go through bankruptcy, and then we'll understand," said Tammy Johnson at UAW Local 600 in Redford Township, Mich.

    "When it was a real crisis, we approved it. We're proud to work for Ford, but ... Ford's future is looking a lot better," said Mohammed Mondale, a UAW member in Dearborn, Mich.


    Nice! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For any given area there are 3 or more rates of pay for a given job. If it is a commercial Union Job or a government paid contract the pay will be equal or higher under the Davis Bacon act. Under the following guidelines my job would pay in Santa Clara, CA about 25% more than my Union scale when I retired. Cable Splicing was just one of the skills I was required to perform. Sometimes at -40 degrees or colder.

    ELEC0332-001 06/01/2009

    SANTA CLARA COUNTY

    Rates Fringes

    CABLE SPLICER....................$ 54.71 3%+20.18
    ELECTRICIAN......................$ 47.57 3%+20.18

    FOOTNOTES: Work under compressed air or where gas masks are
    required, orwork on ladders, scaffolds, stacks, "Bosun's
    chairs," or other structures and where the workers are not
    protected by permanent guard rails at a distance of 40 to
    60 ft. from the ground or supporting structures: to be paid
    one and one-half times the straight-time rate of pay.
    Work on structures of 60 ft. or over (as described above):
    to be paid twice the straight-time rate of pay.

    If you want to see why California is broke. Take a look at what they have to pay for a laborer (ditch digger). If the state takes any Federal money on a project these are the prevailing wages.

    LABO0067-006 06/29/2009
    AREA "A" - ALAMEDA, CONTRA COSTA, MARIN, SAN FRANCISCO, SAN
    MATEO AND SANTA CLARA COUNTIES
    Rates Fringes

    Laborers: (CONSTRUCTION CRAFT
    LABORERS - AREA A:)
    Construction Specialist
    Group.......................$ 27.84 14.93
    GROUP 1.....................$ 27.14 14.93
    GROUP 1-a...................$ 27.36 14.93
    GROUP 1-c...................$ 27.19 14.93
    GROUP 1-e...................$ 27.69 14.93
    GROUP 1-f...................$ 27.72 14.93
    GROUP 1-g (Contra Costa
    County).....................$ 27.34 14.93
    GROUP 2.....................$ 26.99 14.93
    GROUP 3.....................$ 26.89 14.93
    GROUP 4.....................$ 20.58 14.93


    Those kind of wages are a big reason the $3.3 billion in the Stimulus package allocated for infrastructure did not go far. Don't expect a 1-e laborer that digs footings to lift a jackhammer that is part of the 1-a laborer's job. If you are worried about the GROUP 4 laborer, that is the guys picking up the trash at the end of the project. It takes a full time accounting department in a construction company to keep track of the 100s of job classifications and wage/benefit rates. Check out this link. Then look for your own area. It is an eye opener to how convoluted our government has become.

    Davis Bacon wages

    If you pick up a day laborer in front of Home Depot he will want $100 per day and a hot lunch. With or without a green card.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    "If you want to be competitive with GM and Chrysler, go through bankruptcy, and then we'll understand," said Tammy Johnson at UAW Local 600 in Redford Township, Mich.

    I know you were just quoting, but let me rephrase that in a more accurate way:

    "If you want to be competitive with GM and Chrysler, go through bankruptcy, and then let the taxpayers bail you out so that the UAW can maintain it's inflated wage structure and cost-inflating featherbedding," said Tammy Johnson at UAW Local 600 in Redford Township, Mich.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    ...except when Ford goes C11 they will likely be smart enough to completely dump the UAW, unlike the government-managed C and GM...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    If that really happens and Ford dumps UAW, they will become the ultimate USA automotive powerhouse.

    Regards,
    OW
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    Union plants win top productivity rankings
    During intense debate about aid for the auto industry in Washington, UAW critics insisted UAW work rules must be changed so that Chrysler, Ford and GM plants could match the “efficiency” of nonunion foreign nameplate operations.

    President Bush, apparently convinced by this argument, called for modifying union work rules as one of the “targets” in the emergency loan package for automakers approved on Dec. 19.

    In fact, the latest industry data show members of the UAW and the Canadian Auto Workers (CAW) are already more efficient and productive than their nonunion counterparts.

    According to the Harbour Report, the industry standard for evaluating auto plant productivity:

    • Top 10 plants are union plants: Every one of the top 10 most productive auto plants in North America is a UAW or CAW-represented plant.

    • Eight of nine segment leaders are union plants: When compared by vehicle segments – small cars vs. small cars, mid-size cars vs. mid-size cars, pickups vs. pickups – workers in union plants assemble a vehicle using less person hours than nonunion workers in eight out of nine vehicle segments. For example, in 2007:

    Small cars
    UAW members assembled a Dodge Caliber in Belvidere, Ill., in 17 hours. In Cambridge Ontario, assembly time for a Toyota Camry was 24.96 hours.

    The union difference: 7.96 fewer hours per vehicle.

    Mid-size cars
    CAW members assembled a Pontiac Grand Prix or Buick LaCrosse in Oshawa, Ont., in 17.18 hours. In Georgetown Ky., assembly time for a Toyota Camry was 19.79 hours.

    The union difference: 2.61 fewer hours per vehicle.

    Pickups
    UAW members assembled a Ford F-series pickup in Kansas City in 19.19 hours. In Princeton, Ind., assembly time for a Toyota Tundra was 31.92 hours.

    The union difference: 12.73 hours fewer hours per vehicle.

    Bottom line: If efficiency is the goal, nonunion plants need to borrow a page from UAW and CAW plants – not the other way around.


    www.oliverwyman.com/ow/automotive.htm

    TOKYO/FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Volkswagen AG may have overtaken Toyota Motor Co to become the world's top-selling carmaker in the first quarter, thanks to government incentives that fueled demand in VW's major markets.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE53G0L420090417
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    You failed to mention if your car or truck had a infamous soda/beer can in it?

    Its UAW short term gain at the expense of longer term jobs and security

    What is the total labor cost for one car? If your saying that a lower wage rate will secure the job security, hence, one could go a step further and look for the cheapest CEO and or excutives. There is simple no evidence that Ford is in the condition you state. Perhaps you could tell your mortgage company to take less because of your circustances? Maybe if that works out we all will state indigence and get relief. So from the below we should/have to conclude that the UAW made Ford a winner. Thus, since the companies fortune has changed, they might be willing to reopen the contract to share the wealth?

    The weekend news of CIT's bankruptcy, 9 more bank failures (that makes it 115 closures for 2009) and this morning's better-than-expected earnings from Ford

    Then there's the good news from the survivors - financial behemoths like Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase delighted their shareholders a few weeks ago with great results and today, we learned that Ford Motor made nearly a billion dollars last quarter. This is not an equal opportunity recovery - there'll be winners and losers, with the government playing a role in determining the outcome in some cases.


    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/02/business/econwatch/entry5496479.shtml
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    As long as you can come to grips with the facts. The transplants are getting the wages they are because of UAW organizing fear? We know about the leaked Toyota memo? Stating a reduction in wages if the Big Three went under? So are they worth what they are getting? Why is it that we are so preoccupied with our neighbors wages?

    Stated simply, its called collective bargaining. No one is twisting anyone arm or holding a gun to their head. They in fact have more bargaining power than, lets say you going to the gas station, food store, or other business establishments. I know you certainly don't bargain their prices. Doctors have to take the going rate, which is set by Medicare from insurance companies/managed care, or forgo seeing their patients. However, if you don't have coverage, your going to get a higher price. As I was doing benefits coordination one day. I saw a medical surgeons bill for 21K reduced to 7K as the agreed upon rate.

    In April 2008, the Wall Street Journal reported that Toyota plans to end its practice of pegging its hourly wages to UAW rates, and will now pay new hires only 50 percent above the local prevailing wage. In Kentucky, this would mean a savings of about 12 percent, or $3.00 per worker hour – which, of course, will put even more of a squeeze on the Big Three U.S. auto companies and their unionized workforce.

    http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15182
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    when Ford goes C11

    I think that would be a last, last resort, since the Ford family has controlled the company for over 100 years and hold a special class of stock. Bill Ford is still chairman and the family interests aren't necessarily the same as the regular stockholders' interests.

    Chapter 11 would threaten all that for the Fords.

    Looks like Gettlefinger really is resigning too:

    "Bob King, likely the next president of the UAW, ascends with strong relationships with many management figures, especially at Ford Motor Co., and the experience of navigating the shrinking union through the most turbulent period since its founding in 1935.

    "He has the best education and the greatest respect of outsiders that range from financial analysts, academics, politicians and corporate executives," said Sean McAlinden, chief economist at the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. King, a 63-year-old journeyman electrician and University of Detroit Mercy-trained lawyer, is the son of a former industrial relations director at Ford."

    King poised to take helm of UAW (Detroit Free Press)
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Man hours per vehicle doesn't show the entire picture. What about all of the additional payroll required to maintain production, such as absenteeism (reported over the years as high as 20% in some plants) excessive job classifications requiring more employees than needed. Hours per vehicle sounds important but what matters is how much it actually costs to operate the plant.

    Absenteeism is a huge expense. I've seen reports that every additional 1% of absenteeism costs Ford $100 million/year.

    Absenteeism among hourly workers in the automotive industry runs about 10 percent annually, about three times higher than in other industries, according to a study published this year by the Automotive Supplier Action Committee, a trade group. At some Big Three plants, absenteeism runs as high as 20 percent.

    This is an area that have cost the big 3. Don't deny this crap doesn't happen when I've heard first hand accounts. I used to work with a woman who's husband worked at GM's Ontario, Ohio stamping plant. I'd see him at every company get together and all he did was brag how he could call off several times a month to golf and he and his working buddy often got drunk on the job. (He was a tool & die maker so he wasn't on an assembly line). Well he's not doing that anymore as that plant closed. Can't say I feel sorry for him.

    I have a good friend who was a foreman at Bethlehem steel. He showed me attendance records of his employees at the 130" plate mill. Many missed 50 days or more/yr and he couldn't fire them. Tell me where in the real world can people miss work once a week and not get fired? These types of issues don't effect hours per output for a specific task or product, but they sure show up on the bottom line and that has been where GM and Ford have been getting murdered.

    I'm all for employees being payed fairly and if unions can maintain that great, but I have a huge problem of protecting those who willingly don't pull their weight and take advantage of the system.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    UAW members assembled a Dodge Caliber in Belvidere, Ill., in 17 hours. In Cambridge Ontario, assembly time for a Toyota Camry was 24.96 hours.

    The union difference: 7.96 fewer hours per vehicle.


    Unfortunately your conclusion is wrong. The extra 7.96 hours (if you believe these numbers) is time well spent. Ever compared a Dodge Caliber to a Camry? Perhaps Chrysler should take a bit more time and actually build a decent vehicle.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    funny, I have never even imagined a GM, Ford or Chrysler worker rushing too fast in building a car. What a new concept. Let's leave a wrench in there as that sub-assembly floats by, shall we?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • carfaxcarfax Member Posts: 43
    Now we know why American cars fall apart by being thrown together my union workers as fast as they can. I would sooner have a vehicle built at a slower pace and care taken with it. Believe me I have worked with unions for a long time and the workers can't get fired so they don't give a dam.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That would be interesting from a historical perspective. Ford was the last to accept the UAW and would be the first to dump them.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    Man hours per vehicle doesn't show the entire picture. What about all of the additional payroll required to maintain production, such as absenteeism

    Thats a great question. The management is opting to work the overtime and hiring the additional employees. They have seen this as more economical. They pay no additional holidays, vacation time, retirement, and other benefits. The premium time is cheaper than hiring the marginal employees.

    The UAW has stepped in for the membership, in trying to secure time off as a good thing. Sort of time to be with family. The company had at one time agreed to pay in $1 per hour of overtime, which was used to sponsor NASCAR. So if your working seven days a week, what is the big deal in taking a day off here and there? Its just an unwritten agreement and as in anything, there are many employees who weigh the time off vs additional income. I assure you, some folks would come in everyday if they were allowed and or those who use sick/vacation time to cover time off. I would like to see a company which has no attendance policy whatsoever.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    I know you were just quoting, but let me rephrase that in a more accurate way:

    What gets me is that folks want to believe everything they read. Now we have big business owning the media outlets. Big business doesn't like the UAW. They are selective in what they will print/air for control of the minds of the masses. They go way out of their way to look for a yokel to interview so as to steer public opinion. They pay these so called foundation/think tank, which is where PHD's go to retire, for the educated bias study. Being void of peer review are nothing but paid for studies to fool the common man. Since they have all these PHD's on the payroll and you don't have a PHD, hence, they must know better than you. Why can't people think on their own? The fact that you put this out here is rather anti-intellectual. We know that you have a universe of "one" total. In a freshman statistics class you would know better. You can certainly do better than that? If you want FAUX NEWS, GRUDGE, or even Rush to think for you, thats fine, and explains why we have an image problem with the UAW. Because they aren't friends of the UAW.

    My only wonder is why a person like, let say, Rush, has a following of sheep? How does one relate with an Oxycotin druggie? A person who goes to the Dominican Republic, a place well known for sexual abuse of children, with a bottle of Viagra, which wasn't even prescribed to him???
  • carfaxcarfax Member Posts: 43
    How do you figure it is economical to pay someone 35 dollars an hour to stay home sick and then pay 52.50 an hour overtime to do the same job while the other guy is playing golf. The company has no choice to fill the spot of an absent worker to keep the line running. LOL how come everyone thinks it's a written agreement when they are screwing the tax payers or company. I work with fire and paramedics that take time off and their fellow workers have to replace them at time and a half while they are home getting paid for the same day. Tax payers are paying through the nose for this crap.

    I am all for someone getting paid when they are sick and can't go to work if it is for real, but there are way too many that abuse the system and screw it up for the real workers. I know a few CAW workers and they are great at getting time and a half for working overtime and taking a regular day of and getting paid sick time for it. Who do you think taught your EMS workers how to work the system over the years. :blush:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    How does one relate with an Oxycotin druggie

    LOL, because he's not alone. You'd be shocked at how many around you are hooked on Vicodin and or Oxy, among many other prescription drugs. Pray on Sunday for your pain to go away, then stop at the local RX on the way home to make sure it happens:)
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