I think you hit that one on the head. I just saw that over 70% of Ford workers in Chicago voted no on the contract (and they aren't really producing a lot of homeruns there either). I felt Ford should have played hardball when UAW locals were giving them crap after GM and C made out in their BK efforts. At that point, Ford should have served notice to places like Kansas City that no new product would be sent there because the plant was being consolidated and closed. If the UAW walks, Ford needs to get their cajones back and do like Caterpillar did - open an 800 number for new applicants to replace them. I think that showing in Chicago should give Ford pause in giving them any new work too. Ford pays very well and will have little trouble, just some short term start up issues, in replacing the losers that walk away from that best in industry contract offer.
It said the average compensation was $68k to $444K depending on the state you are in
Like Fintail said, anyone can call themselves a CEO. Sounds sexier than Chairman, or President. Heck, my company pays newly minted EE grads close to the low end of the range quoted.
I just saw that over 70% of Ford workers in Chicago voted no on the contract
Maybe they think they should be paid like garbage collectors in Chicago.
CHICAGO—At 6:45 on a recent morning, three burly men in yellow slickers piled into a city garbage truck for a two-mile ride to a weed-choked alley where a row of 96-gallon trash bins awaited.
Over the next few hours, the men emptied scores of black containers, hopping on and off their truck as they lumbered from block to block. It's a tough job but quitting time usually comes early. Total time worked on a typical shift: about 5½ hours, according to a city audit.
Perry Brown, 63, collects trash with coworkers from the Streets and Sanitation Department in Chicago's Ward 30. 'It's a nasty job,' he said, 'but it's the best paying job I've ever had.'
"Nobody works for the city for eight hours," said Kris Squalls, a 48-year-old Teamster who has driven a city garbage truck for 25 years and now makes about $70,000 a year. "Not the mayor, not anybody."
I thought the Dems voted out of jealousy and class divisions, now it is the repubs? Confusing IIRC, police collecting huge overtime to direct traffic and speedtrap were a big part of it. If there's any union that needs to be reeled in, it's cops.
Why are those who benefit from generous public sector compensation and insane public sector retirements afraid to be analyzed? If they've done nothing wrong, they have nothing to be afraid of, right? :shades:
I'd like to see compensation compared with equal credentials, and maybe add working conditions and stresses too - a lot easier to be fired in the private sector than in the other world.
"Oct. 12 (Bloomberg) -- The United Auto Workers said in a Facebook post that it will seek a strike if members vote against a tentative agreement with Ford Motor Co. and that union leaders expect the automaker would seek replacement workers.
Lots of people out of work would love to take those high paid jobs. Ford is selling lots of cars and trucks. They don't need the UAW shutting them down. I would love to see Ford break the UAW. Then they could build factories here instead of all over the World and hire lots of hard working folks that don't think they are worth $120k a year or more."
If this doesn't prove beyond a reasonable dounbt;
1. Just how stupid UAW workers are, which nobody can deny except a UAW steward; and 2. They just don't get it
Than I don't know what does...
Start up the 800 number and replace them all, in 24 hours or less...
The way I see it is this. UAW goes on strike. Ford cancels all contracts with UAW. Starts hiring and training new people. They should shut down all factories in militant UAW locations like Chicago. Build new state of the Art factories in RTW states. Any UAW member that wants to work under the Company rules would be welcomed back. Locals where the vote is close could get a good portion of the workforce back. It would be preferable to offer them jobs in other states. Both to protect them and get them away from that horrible UAW influence. Switch to 401k pensions. Those that were UAW could have what was set aside for them put into an IRA. Not sure how the law would work on pensions. ERISA was not really good for long term employees. If Ford can get their labor costs down equal with HonToy in the USA, they could be very competitive.
Start up the 800 number and replace them all, in 24 hours or less...
You know Caterpillar did this some years back during a different recession. They got so many calls that it literally overloaded Ma Bell's circuits! The UAW workers were actually smart enough to wake up and went back to work thereafter. Cat hasn't had as many labor issues with the UAW since that episode and their decision to literally cancel a partially built plant outside of Peoria after the UAW got unrealistic. Ford needs to take a lesson. The velvet glove doesn't work near as well on these UAW types as a big club. Sometimes I think some of these UAW workers are rather child like in their comprehension and behavior patterns. These UAW guys at Ford look like imbeciles. Let's see, GM workers agree to a contract, Ford offers a significantly better term contract and they want to vote it down in a big recession with the distinct possibility of a double dip in the near future? No sympathy if they all lose their jobs. I'm just not sure Ford has the guts and fortitude to do what they need to do. They've been too parental in their dealings with these clowns over the years. Sometimes you've got to discipline children to teach them lessons.
They've been too parental in their dealings with these clowns over the years. Sometimes you've got to discipline children to teach them lessons.
Absolutely true. When GM allowed the UAW strike of 1998 bring them back to the table, it was the beginning of the end for GM. They were bleeding red ink in less than 10 years and bankrupt.
most TV fed info is political sound bite. I call it distraction TV.
Unemployment for college grads is 4.5% For those who didn't finish HS it is over 9%
Companies can be very choosy now and even require that you already have a job to qualify. With one in 7 on food stamps and 1 in 10 out of work, it seems snapping two parts together or driving a screw with an automatic wrench will attract lots of applicants at $30/hr plus benefits.
It's not what we have to do to set this economy straight, it's what we have to undo.
Jesse Jackson Jr says that for a mere $600B, we should just give all 14 million unemployed each a $40,000 a year job. He has a slightly higher entitlement mentality than the head of the UAW. He hasn't thought of the 40 million now working for less than that.
That is a good question. When they offered to build a state of the art factory in the USA, the UAW shot them down. So they built it in Brazil. I don't think that has hurt them. A strike would impact Ford for sure. But long term they would be better off breaking that UAW millstone around their neck. At least the UAW leaders are not to blame. My guess it is the greedy oldtimers that are rejecting the contract.
berri: "Sometimes I think some of these UAW workers are rather child like in their comprehension and behavior patterns"
Believe me, after spending 10 years (1980-1990) in Detroit, you would be AMAZED at the childlike minds of these union members...they make 4 year old children with temper tantrums like a piece of cake...they will stand there and argue with you about the "skills" needed for floorsweeping and lug nut tightening...they are beyond idiots...
dave: "Jesse Jackson Jr says that for a mere $600B, we should just give all 14 million unemployed each a $40,000 a year job. He has a slightly higher entitlement mentality than the head of the UAW"...
Typical entitlement attitude, and you wonder where they get it from...I wonder how many REAL jobs Junior has held, kinda like his father...
Do you think Ford could survive the 2-3 years it'll take to build and start operation of those new plants?
You know, I'd like to think Ford would do the strategically smart thing. Hire replacement workers and longer term start moving their operations. But face it, Ford is historically a pretty timid company in labor relations. So here's what I expect. A relatively short strike to appease the militant UAW faction, then Ford will throw some token concession in and it will be settled. That is until the next time when the UAW chews off some more and Ford continues to dig itself into a worsening disadvantage to GM and the transplants. Eventually, Ford may find itself facing BK down the road because of their timidity. This whole thing kind of reminds me of the situation American Airlines is finding itself in today versus Delta and United.
Signing bonus, profit sharing, and a 4 yr contract..Sounds like the contract with Government Motors, and should add lots of "bucks" to the Democrat "slush fund."
The B3 cars are looking less attractive..Ford's president will retire in 3 yrs, and leave the mess to someone else..
No Mustang purchase based on the this crappy outcome..After 41 B3 cars to date, I will look at a transplant vehicle with "Non-union" ties...
I would hardly call this caving. This contract is the same one that Ford offered last week and that initial union voting looking it would not be ratified.
IMHO, Ford was happy with it because it allows them to get rid of skilled labor and replace them with contractors. Why pay a plumber for 40 hours labor when he's doing 6 hours of plumbing and 34 hours of production work?
initial union voting looking it would not be ratified.
"The union leadership said early voting was based on emotion and later voting was based on better information, and I'd agree with that assessment," said Robert Clark, a retired labor negotiator at Ford."
I think the threat to open up the jobs to non union workers may have played a part in the later votes. I would phase out the plants that voted it down. Get rid of the bad apples before the 4 years of the contract are up.
Looks like Chrysler workers are going against it more than Ford. Could get interesting, especially how old Sergio may respond. Chrysler can't strike, but I wonder if Uncle will slant the arbitration?
"The United Auto Workers union appeared to be days away from completing its work with all three Detroit auto makers as more Chrysler Group LLC workers threw their support behind the tentative contract.
Rank-and-file members at the crucial Sterling Heights assembly plant in Michigan approved the accord with more than 53% of those voting supporting it.
"I grudgingly supported the contract," said Elisa Gurule, a worker at the plant. "I was happy for the small gains made by the second tier and had great sympathy for the frustrations of those who gave up so much."
I read that the QANTAS CEO has just grounded the airline due to random wildcat union actions that have been causing delays. On a single day these union actions affected over 10K passengers.
Here's an example of management that put their foot down against a union's actions. It's an example of what GM/F/C COULD have done in the '90's regarding the UAW tactics.
It will be interesting to see how the QANTAS situation turns out. QANTAS is facing overseas competition and their labor costs are much higher, yet the unions want continuing raises and increases in benefits. Sound familiar?
"We are not going to announce a target at all," UAW President Bob King said in an interview. "We are not going to create a fight."
King said that the UAW was in talks with all of the German, Japanese and Korean automakers with U.S. factories and expected to continue to make progress toward organizing workers in their operations."
So many factors at play, several volumes could be written about it. Among those I see as most significant - the beancounter mentality of the big 2.5, the mutual suspicion if not hatred had by white collar vs blue collar, executive to actual worker pay ratios, national pride, some form of work ethic, numbers of managerial levels, and more. Different worlds, and one does seem to be doing a little better than the other.
What is the name of that outfit that rates auto factories for performance?
I think the main point of the study for me was the difference in cultural attitudes. In the UAW and the D3 it is an adversarial relationship. Has been for 75 years or more. Where in Germany the Union company relationship seems to be more of a partnership with everyone making out better.
I have to blame the UAW problems on both the UAW leadership and the D3 management. I really became anti UAW in the 1998 strike. We spent a lot of time as Teamsters analyzing that whole mess. It was much like our current Congress and President. The UAW and GM kicked the can down the road and we the tax payers ended up the losers.
We're an adversarial country for sure. Canada seems less so but it's really hard to characterize and slot nations with gross generalizations. One thinks of Asian nations as consensus builders but the South Korean have had some bloody strikes.
In the case of Korea they are a young industrial power. Our strikes were pretty bloody in the 1930s. Even a few recently. And look at the situation now with the Public employee Unions in several states. Not so bloody, but pretty adversarial. China will be more and more violent as time goes on. I think Japan has done a good job of covering up their labor issues. And they have gotten exposed for using slave labor in their own country.
I think in the case of Germany the Auto Industry is their top tier of industrialization. So the jobs are probably prime. I wonder if the immigrants that are in the country are given those jobs. I know there was some interesting situations when East Germany was brought into the fold. It took a bit to get the lazy East Germans up to speed.
The more freedom, the more likely to be discord. No two individuals agree on everything. It comes down to the stronger side winning.
I think work ethic has a lot to do with it. I don't believe it is as bad in the US as some say, but I don't believe it is on the level of some competitors, either. An interesting discussion could be made about why it has decreased here, any factors involved.
From what I can see - and I have been to German car factories, immigrants have no problem getting those jobs. But they likely are required to have the same background and training as anyone else.
China is interesting - it will be more violent there indeed, and the government will win every time, as they have no qualms about killing any amount of people to keep things on track. They've done it before and it will happen again.
That is part of the equation no doubt - as the German school system is not like ours, and does not force most to go to either college or a mcjob, as they haven't completely bent over the barrel for the "service economy" lie yet. They still have something of an apprenticeship system, and many levels of technical study for young people who are not going to traditional academic universities. It produces an industrial workforce maybe with a little more aptitude.
I would agree with that too. When you look at the situation we have with unemployment comp. and welfare in this country, the BIGGEST issue is with "employment" compensation.
What I mean is if the avg. Joe on Unemployment gets $300/wk, or the avg welfare recipient gets $350/wk in bennies (including Sec.8 and food stamps), then right off the bat we are "paying" them $8-9/hr (based on 40 hr wk.).
Add in the fact that there is no taxes paid, that would add another $2/hr, plus the "cost" of not spending money on gas and such to go to work.
So, what are we at? $11-12/hr? Service jobs don't pay that. So, where are those middle of the road factory jobs?? CHINA!!!!!
The entire system needs to be reformed, from elementary education upwards to employment policy. Sadly, so many entrenched parties receive huge profits from the system as it exists now, this is easier said than done.
The jobs go to China, but our supposed "capitalists" claim it is regulations and taxing the top few which causes jobs to flee.
When you look at the situation we have with unemployment comp. and welfare in this country, the BIGGEST issue is with "employment" compensation.
Funny that in one post there's talk about how great Germany is and in another that the US is so bad because of the generous unemployment benefits. They are *nothing* compared to what they have in Germany (and Europe in general.)
avg welfare recipient gets $350/wk in bennies (including Sec.8 and food stamps), then right off the bat we are "paying" them $8-9/hr (based on 40 hr wk.).
Which means working menial jobs has reached the point of diminishing returns. How long can the rest of US support those that have found that entry level jobs are not as good as welfare? I just spent the afternoon with my wife's step son and his son in law. Both in construction. The son in law has a very good job with a large construction job. They have a lot of work going building Indian casinos and government buildings. The company did $400 million this year. The made 3/4% profit. Less than a two year CD. So why stay in business? Why hire with all the hassles associated with running a big company. Just as the person on welfare can do better staying home watching TV, the wealthy investor can do better leaving his money in the bank.
Speaking of those non existent regulations. The Step son that took over the steel company when my wife's deceased husband died, is being run out of business by the City. They don't think an open yard with piles of re-bar laying around is conducive to selling the city as pristine. This is land my wife & husband owned for over 40 years. Grandfathered as heavy industrial. In fact it was land at the edge of town they traded for the place needed to expand the airport. New ordinances require all construction operations be inside buildings. Concrete panel buildings being specified cost millions to put up. There is no money left as the work has dwindled to near nothing. Banks are not loaning on such projects. Nothing available out of the city limits. So he will probably close up shop. Put about 35 iron workers on UI. Not to mention inflation over the last couple years has doubled the price of reinforcing steel.
It is not just the middle of the road factory jobs that are going away. It is a lot of good paying jobs that are being destroyed. In CA it is the illegal workers that killed the Union tradesmen jobs. CA considers them good citizens (voters) and protects them. So why hire a $30 per hour roofer when you can get plenty willing to work for $12 per hour?
The problem is that staying out of work, on welfare, is more profitable than working...that is why I have advocated that the MAXIMUM welfare benefit, with all the goodies attached, should be 50% or less of what the minimum wage is, thereby creating an obvious incentive to work...if min wage is $7.25, then the max welfare benefit is 50% of that, no more...
I believe that would change the welfare situation OVERNIGHT...we would save tax money simply by paying out less, and we would have people willing to pick lettuce simply because they would get more $$$ than sitting at home watching Maury determine who the father is for all those OTHER welfare cheats on his show...
And, with fewer folks on welfare, we would naturally reduce the size of all those welfare departments, state and federal, and save on additional tax money because I would FIRE those unneeded govt employees...
See how easy it is to save money, if you just make the system work correctly???
The problem is that staying out of work, on welfare, is more profitable than working...that is why I have advocated that the MAXIMUM welfare benefit, with all the goodies attached, should be 50% or less of what the minimum wage is, thereby creating an obvious incentive to work...if min wage is $7.25, then the max welfare benefit is 50% of that, no more...
I just don't see how it's really all that "profitable" to stay on welfare or unemployment, long-term. In Maryland, for example, the most you can get is $430 per week. And that IS taxable income. You probably don't pay SS on it, but you do pay state and local taxes.
And, to qualify for that $430 per week, your salary had to have been at least roughly $41,000 per year AND you had to have been employed four out of the past five quarters.
I could make it on $430 per week if I had to, but I sure wouldn't want to, so I know I'd be out there trying to land another job ASAP! And there's a lot of people out there having to get by on far less.
You have to remember that Unemployment was an insurance up until Obama's Stimulus made it just another welfare program. You and I would be hard pressed to live on $430 per week. Many get by on less than that. If they are working a minimum wage job they are grossing only $290 per week. Which is the point of this conversation. There are people with Section8 housing allowance, food stamps, ADC etc making well over minimum wage.
I don't know all the ins and outs of the welfare system. There are millions of people that do. A large portion have never worked a day in their lives. Just taught by their welfare mom or dad the ropes. Easy transition. And the case worker is more than happy to add new leeches to the system as it insures their cushy government job.
Ah yeah, another bitter blame game. How did it really change under Barry other than being extended? Ever think keeping benefits longer is seen as a way to keep people from rioting in the streets? As IMO that should have happened some time ago. And hell, I would wager unemployment monies have a more direct and stronger economic impact on Main St. than more undeserved breaks given to the top few who have already been coddled like at no other time in history. I don't see the bloated welfare scheme as the same as unemployment. Indeed, many of those recipients have never worked at all. Apples and oranges.
Another way to help solve any unemployment abuses would be to change the laws so our treacherous criminal "capitalists" are simply not allowed to move offshore once they have had their way with the system here - taking advantage and then getting out while they can. In other words, create less demand for unemployment compensation. But I know how this masked oligarchy works, money forgives many sins.
How did it really change under Barry other than being extended?
Very good question. It is in the fine print. It is the reason several governors refused the Stimulus money. The extension put added weeks beyond what the stimulus paid. Leaving the states to pick up the added weeks in the future. I am sure that is what all the fuss was about with the latest extension fight in Congress. What many do not realize is the extension does not add weeks for those that have already gone through their 99 week unemployment. It only keeps the same program going. When it is not paid for out of funds set aside, it becomes welfare.
I think you look at the off shoring through a very narrow lens. How is buying a car from Germany, Japan or Korea any different than a company here getting something manufactured in Chindia? There is NO difference. We are in a global competition. If a German company sells US a product that is made in China is it any different than a US company selling a product made in China? To put it another way. If Apple manufactured their iPhones in CA instead of globally, they would still be competing with Nokia, LG and Samsung all built out of the USA. Apple is already the most expensive competitor, so what would it cost made here? And what state would allow Apple to build a manufacturing complex to house, feed and Work 500,000 people in the USA?
What I found ironic with those protesting, is they all carry a smartphone, made in China. They are a big part of the problem and don't even recognize it. I saw a whole pile of smashed laptops. I would assume the cops did it, in protest over the OWS people carrying products made with slave labor? :sick:
I don't know all the ins and outs of the welfare system. There are millions of people that do. A large portion have never worked a day in their lives. Just taught by their welfare mom or dad the ropes. Easy transition. And the case worker is more than happy to add new leeches to the system as it insures their cushy government job.
If not being paid for by funds set aside = welfare, then our entire military strategy and foreign aid debacles are defacto welfare programs. Which in many ways, they are. If that's the only reason that unemployment is some kind of crime, I can't buy that. Our system isn't exactly the most generous in the world, but then again, the US doesn't treat the average citizen better than every other place.
One huge difference is that Japan, Germany, and Korea are allies. Japan, Germany, and Korea aren't committing huge social and environmental crimes today, they aren't stealing massive amounts of intellectual property either. I can't say the same for some other "most favored" traders. Saying there is no difference no matter the origin is shortsighted. And look at the unemployment policies of those nations compared to here - it's not like they are offering pennies.
Apple is expensive because of huge profit margins, not huge input costs. Especially from labor.
The OWS bunch are the same as the early boomers who protested social injustice 40 years earlier. Fast forward 15 years, many became lawyers and stockbrokers and the like, trading their ideals for a new car and a large undeserved salary. It will happen again.
Companies move offshore to save money, and the foreign auto companies did invade the USA to gain sales once the B3 bloated their pricing to offset the giveaways to the unions..This all started back in the late 60s and 70s..
Our northern partner, Canada, is not really the business friendly country, however the Govt does cover the health care costs for the autoworkers assembling cars in Canada..a big plus..Having represented a Canadian metalworking company for 13 yrs, their banking system and overall govt is not to cozy with small manufacturing companies..They were basically liberal back then with tons of laws and regulations..
The Asian countries are cheapo producers and this country is the consumer of all those foreign produced goodies..We have helped to raise their standard of living while gutting ours..slowly..Our current govt is not helping the situation, however is more than happy to pass out free money to enhance their ability to stay in power..
Let's look at Germany, BMW and Mercedes years ago established plants in the USA for their costs of doing business in their Socialist surroundings was not profitable..
Our Politicians made it easy for all the foreign manufacturers to grab a new plant in the USA and beat up Detroit..To date those transplants have remained UAW free..That will change for we have to level the playing field in order for Detroit to survive...Compassion for the downtrodden!!! Wins votes..sounds great????? Watch the other hand..
I like capitalism, watched it work and worked in it..Seems to be the best out there if you look at the rest of the world, however we seem to fading into an abyss..
Spent 34 yrs managing plant operations, marketing and sales, and last 13 yrs of it as commissioned self-employed manufacturers rep..Hey, 7yrs of the hitch was running a UAW plt near Flint, 100 employees, and it wasn't bad, gave them a little raise every year, and 95% of the employees were great workers and the other 5% finally got tired of trying to upset things and settled down..Living 60 miles from a plant has it's advantages..Keep the pricing high, high quality, and on time delivery..always made money..
The family-owned business consisting of 3 plants in the midwest went through a leveraged buyout in 1980, and the gravy train was over..
The UAW is nothing more than a "cash cow" for the left..2,500,000 jobs lost under this current ruling party, however printing presses are running 24/7..free benefits galore..don't you love "solar power and windmills", and anything green?
Gas pricing was bumped about 13 pennies this morning, that's Florida living for you, and all the fine folks from up north are coming down to spent their money..
"Save money" is a euphemism for padding profit margins (aka ROI for the top few percent of the population) and letting executive compensation explode, right? It did all start about 40 years ago, right when some slimy neocons were working to open China. In some ways, a tacit declaration of war against the American blue collar worker.
You are right about Canada, and really most of Europe is similar in a way. It is cheaper to do business because they spend nothing on military/foreign aid, and the average taxpayer puts more in the system to maintain the socialized wonderland. Where here, you pay little, but get little.
I don't know how much "capitalism" we have, especially in the past 40 years. If anything, it is reverse socialism, where the many fund the expansion of the gold of the top few. We did have some "capitalism" once, and even for a period, it seemed like most everyone was winning. Not anymore.
The jobs would be lost no matter who was in office. It would be no better had the opposition been allowed into office. Corporations control government, not the other way around.
Unemployment Insurance is a fund that each state and the Feds put money into. Then when a person is laid off they can claim those funds. Similar to SS and MC.
I agree that much of the foreign aid is welfare. Military spending is mandated by the Constitution. The Federal government is obligated to protect our citizens from foreign invaders. There is nothing Constitutional about handing Section8, Food Stamps, Medicaid, ADC money at people.
You have to know Foreign aid is chump change in our Federal budget. Highest year was 2004 at 1.6% of the total budget. $44 billion total. That isn't a fraction of our US bottom of the food chain welfare.
Welfare under other names is still welfare. Just like subsidized corporations are welfare too. I don't know of any constitution in any nation that mentions social welfare, but I know why it exists - twofold. Some corporate profit is made, and it keeps a lid on tensions.
I don't remember anything in the constitution about maintaining safety for east Asia, Europe, Israel, contriving wars to aid well-connected industries, and so on.
Think of all the infrastructure we could build with 44BN or equivalent (or more) every year, year in year out, for decades. We might look like a first world nation :shades:
Comments
I think you hit that one on the head. I just saw that over 70% of Ford workers in Chicago voted no on the contract (and they aren't really producing a lot of homeruns there either). I felt Ford should have played hardball when UAW locals were giving them crap after GM and C made out in their BK efforts. At that point, Ford should have served notice to places like Kansas City that no new product would be sent there because the plant was being consolidated and closed. If the UAW walks, Ford needs to get their cajones back and do like Caterpillar did - open an 800 number for new applicants to replace them. I think that showing in Chicago should give Ford pause in giving them any new work too. Ford pays very well and will have little trouble, just some short term start up issues, in replacing the losers that walk away from that best in industry contract offer.
Like Fintail said, anyone can call themselves a CEO. Sounds sexier than Chairman, or President. Heck, my company pays newly minted EE grads close to the low end of the range quoted.
Yep. I can get a handful from outside the big box home improvement store that would just love to sweep floors or tighten lug nuts for $15/hour
Maybe they think they should be paid like garbage collectors in Chicago.
CHICAGO—At 6:45 on a recent morning, three burly men in yellow slickers piled into a city garbage truck for a two-mile ride to a weed-choked alley where a row of 96-gallon trash bins awaited.
Over the next few hours, the men emptied scores of black containers, hopping on and off their truck as they lumbered from block to block. It's a tough job but quitting time usually comes early. Total time worked on a typical shift: about 5½ hours, according to a city audit.
Perry Brown, 63, collects trash with coworkers from the Streets and Sanitation Department in Chicago's Ward 30. 'It's a nasty job,' he said, 'but it's the best paying job I've ever had.'
"Nobody works for the city for eight hours," said Kris Squalls, a 48-year-old Teamster who has driven a city garbage truck for 25 years and now makes about $70,000 a year. "Not the mayor, not anybody."
Chicago Mayor Trashes Politics of Waste Removal
Why are those who benefit from generous public sector compensation and insane public sector retirements afraid to be analyzed? If they've done nothing wrong, they have nothing to be afraid of, right? :shades:
I'd like to see compensation compared with equal credentials, and maybe add working conditions and stresses too - a lot easier to be fired in the private sector than in the other world.
Lots of people out of work would love to take those high paid jobs. Ford is selling lots of cars and trucks. They don't need the UAW shutting them down. I would love to see Ford break the UAW. Then they could build factories here instead of all over the World and hire lots of hard working folks that don't think they are worth $120k a year or more."
If this doesn't prove beyond a reasonable dounbt;
1. Just how stupid UAW workers are, which nobody can deny except a UAW steward; and
2. They just don't get it
Than I don't know what does...
Start up the 800 number and replace them all, in 24 hours or less...
You know Caterpillar did this some years back during a different recession. They got so many calls that it literally overloaded Ma Bell's circuits! The UAW workers were actually smart enough to wake up and went back to work thereafter. Cat hasn't had as many labor issues with the UAW since that episode and their decision to literally cancel a partially built plant outside of Peoria after the UAW got unrealistic. Ford needs to take a lesson. The velvet glove doesn't work near as well on these UAW types as a big club. Sometimes I think some of these UAW workers are rather child like in their comprehension and behavior patterns. These UAW guys at Ford look like imbeciles. Let's see, GM workers agree to a contract, Ford offers a significantly better term contract and they want to vote it down in a big recession with the distinct possibility of a double dip in the near future? No sympathy if they all lose their jobs. I'm just not sure Ford has the guts and fortitude to do what they need to do. They've been too parental in their dealings with these clowns over the years. Sometimes you've got to discipline children to teach them lessons.
Absolutely true. When GM allowed the UAW strike of 1998 bring them back to the table, it was the beginning of the end for GM. They were bleeding red ink in less than 10 years and bankrupt.
I call it distraction TV.
Unemployment for college grads is 4.5%
For those who didn't finish HS it is over 9%
Companies can be very choosy now and even require that you already have a job to qualify. With one in 7 on food stamps and 1 in 10 out of work, it seems snapping two parts together or driving a screw with an automatic wrench will attract lots of applicants at $30/hr plus benefits.
It's not what we have to do to set this economy straight, it's what we have to undo.
Jesse Jackson Jr says that for a mere $600B, we should just give all 14 million unemployed each a $40,000 a year job. He has a slightly higher entitlement mentality than the head of the UAW. He hasn't thought of the 40 million now working for less than that.
Do you think Ford could survive the 2-3 years it'll take to build and start operation of those new plants?
Believe me, after spending 10 years (1980-1990) in Detroit, you would be AMAZED at the childlike minds of these union members...they make 4 year old children with temper tantrums like a piece of cake...they will stand there and argue with you about the "skills" needed for floorsweeping and lug nut tightening...they are beyond idiots...
dave: "Jesse Jackson Jr says that for a mere $600B, we should just give all 14 million unemployed each a $40,000 a year job. He has a slightly higher entitlement mentality than the head of the UAW"...
Typical entitlement attitude, and you wonder where they get it from...I wonder how many REAL jobs Junior has held, kinda like his father...
You know, I'd like to think Ford would do the strategically smart thing. Hire replacement workers and longer term start moving their operations. But face it, Ford is historically a pretty timid company in labor relations. So here's what I expect. A relatively short strike to appease the militant UAW faction, then Ford will throw some token concession in and it will be settled. That is until the next time when the UAW chews off some more and Ford continues to dig itself into a worsening disadvantage to GM and the transplants. Eventually, Ford may find itself facing BK down the road because of their timidity. This whole thing kind of reminds me of the situation American Airlines is finding itself in today versus Delta and United.
The B3 cars are looking less attractive..Ford's president will retire in 3 yrs, and leave the mess to someone else..
No Mustang purchase based on the this crappy outcome..After 41 B3 cars to date, I will look at a transplant vehicle with "Non-union" ties...
IMHO, Ford was happy with it because it allows them to get rid of skilled labor and replace them with contractors. Why pay a plumber for 40 hours labor when he's doing 6 hours of plumbing and 34 hours of production work?
"The union leadership said early voting was based on emotion and later voting was based on better information, and I'd agree with that assessment," said Robert Clark, a retired labor negotiator at Ford."
Ford Workers Ratify New UAW Contract (WSJ)
Didn't help the stock price.
Rank-and-file members at the crucial Sterling Heights assembly plant in Michigan approved the accord with more than 53% of those voting supporting it.
"I grudgingly supported the contract," said Elisa Gurule, a worker at the plant. "I was happy for the small gains made by the second tier and had great sympathy for the frustrations of those who gave up so much."
UAW Likely to Get Member Approval for Chrysler Pact (WSJ)
Now on to the foreign manufacturers, where the fun will really begin for Bob King.
Here's an example of management that put their foot down against a union's actions. It's an example of what GM/F/C COULD have done in the '90's regarding the UAW tactics.
It will be interesting to see how the QANTAS situation turns out. QANTAS is facing overseas competition and their labor costs are much higher, yet the unions want continuing raises and increases in benefits. Sound familiar?
King said that the UAW was in talks with all of the German, Japanese and Korean automakers with U.S. factories and expected to continue to make progress toward organizing workers in their operations."
UAW's King, in shift, says he won't pick transplant target (autonews.com)
I think the main point of the study for me was the difference in cultural attitudes. In the UAW and the D3 it is an adversarial relationship. Has been for 75 years or more. Where in Germany the Union company relationship seems to be more of a partnership with everyone making out better.
I have to blame the UAW problems on both the UAW leadership and the D3 management. I really became anti UAW in the 1998 strike. We spent a lot of time as Teamsters analyzing that whole mess. It was much like our current Congress and President. The UAW and GM kicked the can down the road and we the tax payers ended up the losers.
I think in the case of Germany the Auto Industry is their top tier of industrialization. So the jobs are probably prime. I wonder if the immigrants that are in the country are given those jobs. I know there was some interesting situations when East Germany was brought into the fold. It took a bit to get the lazy East Germans up to speed.
The more freedom, the more likely to be discord. No two individuals agree on everything. It comes down to the stronger side winning.
From what I can see - and I have been to German car factories, immigrants have no problem getting those jobs. But they likely are required to have the same background and training as anyone else.
China is interesting - it will be more violent there indeed, and the government will win every time, as they have no qualms about killing any amount of people to keep things on track. They've done it before and it will happen again.
What I mean is if the avg. Joe on Unemployment gets $300/wk, or the avg welfare recipient gets $350/wk in bennies (including Sec.8 and food stamps), then right off the bat we are "paying" them $8-9/hr (based on 40 hr wk.).
Add in the fact that there is no taxes paid, that would add another $2/hr, plus the "cost" of not spending money on gas and such to go to work.
So, what are we at? $11-12/hr? Service jobs don't pay that. So, where are those middle of the road factory jobs?? CHINA!!!!!
The jobs go to China, but our supposed "capitalists" claim it is regulations and taxing the top few which causes jobs to flee.
Funny that in one post there's talk about how great Germany is and in another that the US is so bad because of the generous unemployment benefits. They are *nothing* compared to what they have in Germany (and Europe in general.)
Which means working menial jobs has reached the point of diminishing returns. How long can the rest of US support those that have found that entry level jobs are not as good as welfare? I just spent the afternoon with my wife's step son and his son in law. Both in construction. The son in law has a very good job with a large construction job. They have a lot of work going building Indian casinos and government buildings. The company did $400 million this year. The made 3/4% profit. Less than a two year CD. So why stay in business? Why hire with all the hassles associated with running a big company. Just as the person on welfare can do better staying home watching TV, the wealthy investor can do better leaving his money in the bank.
Speaking of those non existent regulations. The Step son that took over the steel company when my wife's deceased husband died, is being run out of business by the City. They don't think an open yard with piles of re-bar laying around is conducive to selling the city as pristine. This is land my wife & husband owned for over 40 years. Grandfathered as heavy industrial. In fact it was land at the edge of town they traded for the place needed to expand the airport. New ordinances require all construction operations be inside buildings. Concrete panel buildings being specified cost millions to put up. There is no money left as the work has dwindled to near nothing. Banks are not loaning on such projects. Nothing available out of the city limits. So he will probably close up shop. Put about 35 iron workers on UI. Not to mention inflation over the last couple years has doubled the price of reinforcing steel.
It is not just the middle of the road factory jobs that are going away. It is a lot of good paying jobs that are being destroyed. In CA it is the illegal workers that killed the Union tradesmen jobs. CA considers them good citizens (voters) and protects them. So why hire a $30 per hour roofer when you can get plenty willing to work for $12 per hour?
I believe that would change the welfare situation OVERNIGHT...we would save tax money simply by paying out less, and we would have people willing to pick lettuce simply because they would get more $$$ than sitting at home watching Maury determine who the father is for all those OTHER welfare cheats on his show...
And, with fewer folks on welfare, we would naturally reduce the size of all those welfare departments, state and federal, and save on additional tax money because I would FIRE those unneeded govt employees...
See how easy it is to save money, if you just make the system work correctly???
I just don't see how it's really all that "profitable" to stay on welfare or unemployment, long-term. In Maryland, for example, the most you can get is $430 per week. And that IS taxable income. You probably don't pay SS on it, but you do pay state and local taxes.
And, to qualify for that $430 per week, your salary had to have been at least roughly $41,000 per year AND you had to have been employed four out of the past five quarters.
I could make it on $430 per week if I had to, but I sure wouldn't want to, so I know I'd be out there trying to land another job ASAP! And there's a lot of people out there having to get by on far less.
I don't know all the ins and outs of the welfare system. There are millions of people that do. A large portion have never worked a day in their lives. Just taught by their welfare mom or dad the ropes. Easy transition. And the case worker is more than happy to add new leeches to the system as it insures their cushy government job.
Fittingly I suppose, the burial site is the RenCen.
Also know as the GM Renaissance Center. Nice looking building. You might say it has good bones.
Another way to help solve any unemployment abuses would be to change the laws so our treacherous criminal "capitalists" are simply not allowed to move offshore once they have had their way with the system here - taking advantage and then getting out while they can. In other words, create less demand for unemployment compensation. But I know how this masked oligarchy works, money forgives many sins.
Very good question. It is in the fine print. It is the reason several governors refused the Stimulus money. The extension put added weeks beyond what the stimulus paid. Leaving the states to pick up the added weeks in the future. I am sure that is what all the fuss was about with the latest extension fight in Congress. What many do not realize is the extension does not add weeks for those that have already gone through their 99 week unemployment. It only keeps the same program going. When it is not paid for out of funds set aside, it becomes welfare.
I think you look at the off shoring through a very narrow lens. How is buying a car from Germany, Japan or Korea any different than a company here getting something manufactured in Chindia? There is NO difference. We are in a global competition. If a German company sells US a product that is made in China is it any different than a US company selling a product made in China? To put it another way. If Apple manufactured their iPhones in CA instead of globally, they would still be competing with Nokia, LG and Samsung all built out of the USA. Apple is already the most expensive competitor, so what would it cost made here? And what state would allow Apple to build a manufacturing complex to house, feed and Work 500,000 people in the USA?
What I found ironic with those protesting, is they all carry a smartphone, made in China. They are a big part of the problem and don't even recognize it. I saw a whole pile of smashed laptops. I would assume the cops did it, in protest over the OWS people carrying products made with slave labor? :sick:
This is what I wanna be when I grow up!
**Disclaimer: it's from "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia", so use your discretion if viewing at work...
One huge difference is that Japan, Germany, and Korea are allies. Japan, Germany, and Korea aren't committing huge social and environmental crimes today, they aren't stealing massive amounts of intellectual property either. I can't say the same for some other "most favored" traders. Saying there is no difference no matter the origin is shortsighted. And look at the unemployment policies of those nations compared to here - it's not like they are offering pennies.
Apple is expensive because of huge profit margins, not huge input costs. Especially from labor.
The OWS bunch are the same as the early boomers who protested social injustice 40 years earlier. Fast forward 15 years, many became lawyers and stockbrokers and the like, trading their ideals for a new car and a large undeserved salary. It will happen again.
Our northern partner, Canada, is not really the business friendly country, however the Govt does cover the health care costs for the autoworkers assembling cars in Canada..a big plus..Having represented a Canadian metalworking company for 13 yrs, their banking system and overall govt is not to cozy with small manufacturing companies..They were basically liberal back then with tons of laws and regulations..
The Asian countries are cheapo producers and this country is the consumer of all those foreign produced goodies..We have helped to raise their standard of living while gutting ours..slowly..Our current govt is not helping the situation, however is more than happy to pass out free money to enhance their ability to stay in power..
Let's look at Germany, BMW and Mercedes years ago established plants in the USA for their costs of doing business in their Socialist surroundings was not profitable..
Our Politicians made it easy for all the foreign manufacturers to grab a new plant in the USA and beat up Detroit..To date those transplants have remained UAW free..That will change for we have to level the playing field in order for Detroit to survive...Compassion for the downtrodden!!! Wins votes..sounds great????? Watch the other hand..
I like capitalism, watched it work and worked in it..Seems to be the best out there if you look at the rest of the world, however we seem to fading into an abyss..
Spent 34 yrs managing plant operations, marketing and sales, and last 13 yrs of it as commissioned self-employed manufacturers rep..Hey, 7yrs of the hitch was running a UAW plt near Flint, 100 employees, and it wasn't bad, gave them a little raise every year, and 95% of the employees were great workers and the other 5% finally got tired of trying to upset things and settled down..Living 60 miles from a plant has it's advantages..Keep the pricing high, high quality, and on time delivery..always made money..
The family-owned business consisting of 3 plants in the midwest went through a leveraged buyout in 1980, and the gravy train was over..
The UAW is nothing more than a "cash cow" for the left..2,500,000 jobs lost under this current ruling party, however printing presses are running 24/7..free benefits galore..don't you love "solar power and windmills", and anything green?
Gas pricing was bumped about 13 pennies this morning, that's Florida living for you, and all the fine folks from up north are coming down to spent their money..
You are right about Canada, and really most of Europe is similar in a way. It is cheaper to do business because they spend nothing on military/foreign aid, and the average taxpayer puts more in the system to maintain the socialized wonderland. Where here, you pay little, but get little.
I don't know how much "capitalism" we have, especially in the past 40 years. If anything, it is reverse socialism, where the many fund the expansion of the gold of the top few. We did have some "capitalism" once, and even for a period, it seemed like most everyone was winning. Not anymore.
The jobs would be lost no matter who was in office. It would be no better had the opposition been allowed into office. Corporations control government, not the other way around.
I agree that much of the foreign aid is welfare. Military spending is mandated by the Constitution. The Federal government is obligated to protect our citizens from foreign invaders. There is nothing Constitutional about handing Section8, Food Stamps, Medicaid, ADC money at people.
You have to know Foreign aid is chump change in our Federal budget. Highest year was 2004 at 1.6% of the total budget. $44 billion total. That isn't a fraction of our US bottom of the food chain welfare.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/10/04/us/politics/us-foreign-aid-since-1- 977.html?ref=politics
I don't remember anything in the constitution about maintaining safety for east Asia, Europe, Israel, contriving wars to aid well-connected industries, and so on.
Think of all the infrastructure we could build with 44BN or equivalent (or more) every year, year in year out, for decades. We might look like a first world nation :shades:
And apparently the neoliberals are keeping it up, too:
US declines to cite China as currency manipulator
Which brings us back to the conclusion that its the corporate money in the US that has corrupted both parties.