I would imagine most of the execs have already taken out more than their share. I don't imagine they want any stock at 45 cents a share. Really a sad thing to see a company with that heritage die. Far more important than say GM dying. GM is just another car company among many. Eastman Kodak is the company that made photography what it is today.
I would say the rank and file employees will not see a decent retirement.
Think about it. What's the present value that would be needed to provide 80% of her final (highest?) 3 years, plus ~3% increases for the rest of her life? $2 million? $3 million?
How do you calculate the present value of a pension, anyway? I've always heard that a rule of thumb was that if you wanted your portfolio to last 30 years, you shouldn't take out more than 4% per year, adjusted for inflation. But if you only take out 3%, it should last indefinitely.
So, say you were getting a $50,000 pension that was adjusted to inflation. At a 3% withdrawal rate, that means you'd have to have a starting portfolio of roughly $1.67M. With a 4% rate, you'd only need $1.25M.
So I'd imagine to estimate a pension's present value, you'd multply the annual amount by some number between 25 and 33.3?
You know as well as I do, the higher you are up the ladder, the less you have to sacrifice when things get bad. It's true in overall society, not just sputtering corporations :sick: ...just import some more junk from China to mask the decline.
I wish I could simply sock away 8-9% and be set when the time comes (and have that time be after 25-30 years and not when I am nearly 70).
How do you calculate the present value of a pension, anyway?
I think what you outlined is basically it - that's pretty much what I did to come up with those numbers.
I used to have (still do, someplace) an old CRC book of tables that you could use to look up such things. Also, spreadsheets like Excel have PV formulas.
You put in the annual payout, any increases such as COLAs, etc, and the period of the payout (say, 20 years), and out pops the PV. That assumes the principle is all used up at the end.
Annual increases can make a big difference in the PV, especially over 20 years or more. Heck, if she's getting a 3% COLA each year, she could take out 3% every year (if she had her pension as a lump sum) and never even touch the principle.
Now you know why there will eventually be an en masse amnesty ideal for illegals - create a lot more paying into the system. Many are younger than I am, so hopefully those collections will keep pace :shades:
The illegals will likely be in the lower 50% that are not paying Income taxes. And with the President pushing for SS tax holidays they would be contributing very little and taking a lot more out of the system with Medicaid, freebie meals for kids, section8 rent subsidies, etc etc. Amnesty is the worst option. Best is soylent green for those that refuse to leave. :shades:
Oh, it's easy to debate what is the symptom and what is the disease, but at the same time, it is deceptive at best to cry about or mock anyone who dares to castigate China, as some do here. Some here are so blinded by the idea of "free trade" that they fail to see the impacts of our shortsighted and suicidal "most favored" policies.
Well considering that even during the hey days of pension plans, a pension was only one leg of the "three legged stool" model retirement planning. Meaning everyone should have savings regardless of how good your pension and/or 401k plan is.
Having to be a Walmart greeter in retirement could be a reality for anyone who runs into bad luck and/or fails to save money. If my plan fails for one reason or another, I certainly won't be to proud to greet people at Walmart. Unfortunately there are no guarantees.
I certainly won't be to proud to greet people at Walmart. Unfortunately there are no guarantees
If something happened to my Teamster Pension, I would not be against a minimum wage job as a greeter at WM. The ones at our WM are cheerful and don't seem at all downtrodden. One guy is always singing. Great asset to the store.
It would be too much for me to catch up with the latest in my field to return. I would not want to anyway. I would go to work at WM now except it would tip me into the 1%, making me a target of the OWS. :shades:
If something happened to my Teamster Pension, I would not be against a minimum wage job as a greeter at WM. The ones at our WM are cheerful and don't seem at all downtrodden. One guy is always singing. Great asset to the store.
The belief every retirement age greeter at places like Walmart are there because they have to be is plain false.
I know several retired people working those kinds of jobs so they have something to do and make a little extra coin in the process. My grandma worked part time until 3 weeks prior to her passing last year. She didn't need the money, she just liked getting out and seeing people.
I have a great uncle that was retired from a utility company, he worked as a Walmart greeter for several years just to get out of the house and see people. His pension is nearly as much as his working wages.
My mom retired around 76 because she couldn't read her watch good enough to check people's BP at the nursing home where she was an RN. We always joked that she was just not going to go home one time after a shift. Some people just like to work. Must be in the nursing genes.
I think it's a generational skipping thing myself.
"In dozens of interviews with union officials, organizers and car company executives, a picture has emerged of UAW President Bob King's strategy. By appealing to German unions for help and by calling on the companies to do the right thing, King hopes to get VW and Daimler to surrender without a fight and let the union make its case directly to workers."
I don't think Tennessee has changed much since Nissan voted 2-1 against the UAW back in 2001. It is interesting to note that the German union that represents many auto workers are trying to help the UAW since they see cheap US labor as a factor in German job losses at their auto factories.
Those greedy Germans outsourcing to get slave labor in the colonies. :shades:
Even if they do get a contract in the VW or MB plants. The workers will be free to join if they desire. The onus would be on the UAW to provide some benefit to the workers. I don't think VW is paying much less than the new GM and Chrysler contracts. I don't see the transplants offering a defined pension plan. Only 401Ks would be my guess. Is VW offering a medical plan or are they gonna let Obama cover that for them?
Here is the key to the situation the UAW is facing:
For 2,500 jobs paying $30,000 a year, VW turned away 83,000 hopefuls at Chattanooga, which started up this year. Statistically, an applicant to Harvard University had a better chance of admission.
So why should a worker in TN with a $30,000 job want a union that has allowed the auto makers in other states cut the pay to $30,000 per year. Add onto that $700 in dues will be deducted. You think the company is going to raise the pay above the going rate to help out the UAW.... I don't think so. I think King knows the UAW is dying, losing more workers each year than they are gaining. Time to sell the Reuther private golf course and resort.
1,300 workers will be hired by Toyota in Tupelo. "The state received 41,000 applications for the positions, which pay a starting wage of $15 an hour, rising to $21 an hour after five years.
That’s on par with wages paid by automakers in the Deep South, and about what newly hired workers at Detroit auto companies are getting.
But it’s sharply less than the $28 an hour wages earned by veteran workers at GM, Ford and Chrysler, while Toyota workers in Georgetown also are paid in that range."
>But it’s sharply less than the $28 an hour wages earned by veteran workers at GM,
I thought those UAW workers were getting 99$ per hour at GM from the talk that has been on the forum through the years.
What's with the $28 per hour for veterans now? What's the real pay scale? Did the other one include the cost of projected healthcare, retirement, death benefit, toilet paper for the factory, and other things?
...deceptive at best to cry about or mock anyone who dares to castigate China
Actually, as I've said many times, China is not to be trusted. But no single country is the one-stop-shopping fault for all of our nation's ills, either.
Take GM and C. It wasn't China, it was poor management compounded by union stupidity. A match made in h*ll. Just as the UAW always would complain that all their problems were caused by currency manipulation.
Having to be a Walmart greeter in retirement could be a reality for anyone who runs into bad luck and/or fails to save money.
I look at it this way. Is it better for grandma/grandpa to sit in the rocker at home thinking of days gone by? Or is it a good thing for their physical and mental acuity to go to work, interact with coworkers and the public, and bring home some extra spending money?
I thought those UAW workers were getting 99$ per hour at GM from the talk that has been on the forum through the years.
What's with the $28 per hour for veterans now? What's the real pay scale? Did the other one include the cost of projected healthcare, retirement, death benefit, toilet paper for the factory, and other things?
I think you're looking at apples vs. oranges. The $28 is likely the hourly average rate for experienced workers. The $99 is when you factor in the value of pension, healthcare, vacation, vision, dental, life insurance, disability insurance, etc. And it might also include the amortized cost of covering underfunded pensions for existing retirees.
My mother is kind of in that boat. She could more or less retire now - she has a pretty low cost of living, but she continues to work in a boring retail environment - for the healthcare benefits rather than money first, then for extra money, and for something to do. In a small town, it would get boring fast just sitting around.
Then I can look at the parents of a close old friend - one a 30 year teacher, the other a 35 year park ranger - according to him, they bring in 100K+ in pension money. So they just travel around all year now. Insane.
But GM and C are overall a small amount of the problem here - did not directly employ a significant amount of the workers in the nation, nor did they behave like our "most favored" "partner". Go try to buy household goods and tell me the other C isn't more of an issue, or see how it is building firepower and tell me it won't be a much greater issue in the future. One single country isn't 100% at fault, but some are much more at fault than others, just as some of our countrymen are also much more at fault.
But GM and C are overall a small amount of the problem here - did not directly employ a significant amount of the workers in the nation, nor did they behave like our "most favored" "partner". Go try to buy household goods and tell me the other C isn't more of an issue, or see how it is building firepower and tell me it won't be a much greater issue in the future. One single country isn't 100% at fault, but some are much more at fault than others, just as some of our countrymen are also much more at fault.
Basically you and I are in agreement.
We can't blame the companies when the system they operate under incentivizes their behavior. It's government, tax and trade policies that must be changed.
And it might also include the amortized cost of covering underfunded pensions for existing retirees.
Those figures that were bandied about prior to the GM & C bankruptcy did include and rightly so all the pension and HC benefits going to the retirees and their spouses. I saw figures all the way up to $156 per hour loaded rate. The loaded rate is used by the bean counters to estimate the cost of manufacturing a car. During the last Ford UAW negotiations the situation was $56 per hour with benefits. It did not include the legacy costs. In the case of GM I believe the Union is now responsible for the pension fund. I think the retirees did lose the gold plated HC plan for life. They may have gotten their pensions reduced also. For comparison when I retired my package was $64 per hour and our loaded rate we charged the customer was $138 per hour.
The loaded rate is used by the bean counters to estimate the cost of manufacturing a car
The loaded rate is also what companies use when they bid a job. In my case, the loaded rate for me is approximately 2.5 times my hourly rate, hourly rate being what I make (monthly salary divided by 173 hrs, or there 'bouts).
Then I can look at the parents of a close old friend - one a 30 year teacher, the other a 35 year park ranger - according to him, they bring in 100K+ in pension money. So they just travel around all year now. Insane.
My BIL's parent are that way. His dad has a teamsters pension and his mom is a retired school teacher with a nice pension too. From what my BIL tells me, with SSI, pensions, and other savings, they're earning more retired than when they were working plus he's provided with health insurance. They've been traveling all over the country the past few years as well.
Those pensions are great as long as they're properly funded which it seems the teamsters are.
We have an 82 year old couple in our church. He was the local fire chief and retired about 30 years ago with some lung problems. They sold their home and traveled the USA for 20 years. Then inflation caught up with his pension. Now they live in a dinky little mobile home, just getting by on what was a great retirement 30 years ago. People living longer makes it very difficult to project what you will need further down the retirement trail.
I look at it this way. Is it better for grandma/grandpa to sit in the rocker at home thinking of days gone by? Or is it a good thing for their physical and mental acuity to go to work, interact with coworkers and the public, and bring home some extra spending money?
Devil's advocate: wouldn't that job be better off filled by a person who needs that job instead of paying both unemployment and ss benefits?
Devil's advocate: wouldn't that job be better off filled by a person who needs that job instead of paying both unemployment and ss benefits?
In a perfect world I'd say yes. But this is far from it. When I used to work in the grocery business, older folks made great employees as baggers and clerks etc. They showed up on time and rarely called off.
I guess in a perfect situation, anyone who wants to work, should be able to do so regardless of actual need.
But who controls the government? When it comes down to it, it's the corporations, hence our lobbyist culture and disguised oligarchy. You get the justice you pay for.
I wonder what teamsters put in compared to the huge public sector pensions. I want that kind of ROI.
I don't know. Gagrice probably has more info. But from friends and family i know who are teamster members . It depends on the local your in and your classification.
With the trades such as heavy equipment operators etc. The employer pays a wage per the contract plus an additional hourly amount towards benefits.
With a lot of these types of jobs, you don't have a dedicated employer. You work out of the local and work a job. Depending on where the job is and the type of job determines the pay. You might work for the same company for years or work for various companies.
I know a guy who's a crane operator and if he works up in Chicago on a large crane he'll make over $50/hr plus benefits. Last summer he was on a job in southern Indiana and was only getting paid like $18/hr IIRC.
I know quite a few teamster members and it seems they all have very good benefits and pensions.
Why????? Fiber splicing is a mindless, mind numbing job.
I took a couple classes on FO splicing. I would say it is way too boring. I like trouble shooting. I would probably do PBX and Key System installation and repair. Or better yet Computer networking. I like that. I really don't feel like working other than my garden. I would if I had to.
When I retired in 2006 the company was putting $7 per hour into my Teamster Pension plan. And they matched 3% in my 401K. Our healthcare from the Teamsters cost the company $7.91 per hour. When you add in SS, workmen's Comp and death benefits etc, it is almost double the wage you see on your check.
It is not hard to believe that Ford and GM are paying somewhere around $56 per hour for the older workers. I think they have cut the new hires down considerably.
He was forced to retire. You probably realize that firemen way back when did not have the safety devices we have today. He is continually fighting breathing problems from his days fighting fires without a respirator. I don't think he would want anyone to feel sorry for him. I was just making the point that a fixed retirement may not be adequate 30 years from when you retire, due to inflation. My Teamster pension has no COLA. So what I get now is what I get 10-20 years from now depending on how long I can hang around Edmund's.
PS A lot of civil service people retire with a fat pension at 52 and COLA keeping them sometime ahead of what they made working.
I am amazed how many people sell their homes and get an RV and travel around the country. I think we the tax payers are paying for a lot of them. People took out equity loans during the sub-prime time, and paid cash for a big fancy motor home. Then when the bubble burst they leave the house for the bank to deal with and drive off into the sunset. Beats the heck out of being homeless. I worked with a guy that spent his 3 weeks off in his RV parked at Walmart in Anchorage. There was a bunch of people living their.
If you just wandered from one WM to the next you could get by real cheap. We took our RV on one trip after retirement and decided that was not for us. Stayed in motels every night. Let the cat stay in the RV.
I am amazed how many people sell their homes and get an RV and travel around the country.
Well, depending on where your house was, selling it a few years back and buying an RV would have probably been a good idea;)
It's not for everyone, but I could see my wife I traveling in a nice motor home some day. I don't know if I'd sell my house to do it, but maybe sell the house, put some of that money into an RV travel around until will found where we wanted to stay, then buy another house.
You don't have to spend 500k plus on an RV. You can find a decent diesel pusher for $50-100k w/o to many miles. Buy one that's already depreciated and you won't lose to much money.
You wouldn't want to through all of your money into a new luxury RV, that's for sure. They do depreciate a lot and can be expensive to maintain.
You can easily pay $40 to $50 a night to "camp" at an RV park and lots of places prohibit Walmart camping now. May as well get a room at the Hampton Inn.
But I don't think they have UAW workers at the Hampton. :P
Labor unions continued to receive the overwhelming majority of waivers from the president’s health care reform law since the Obama administration tightened application rules last summer.
Documents released in a classic Friday afternoon news dump show that labor unions representing 543,812 workers received waivers from President Barack Obama‘s signature legislation since June 17, 2011.
By contrast, private employers with a total of 69,813 employees, many of whom work for small businesses, were granted waivers.
Comments
I would say the rank and file employees will not see a decent retirement.
How do you calculate the present value of a pension, anyway? I've always heard that a rule of thumb was that if you wanted your portfolio to last 30 years, you shouldn't take out more than 4% per year, adjusted for inflation. But if you only take out 3%, it should last indefinitely.
So, say you were getting a $50,000 pension that was adjusted to inflation. At a 3% withdrawal rate, that means you'd have to have a starting portfolio of roughly $1.67M. With a 4% rate, you'd only need $1.25M.
So I'd imagine to estimate a pension's present value, you'd multply the annual amount by some number between 25 and 33.3?
I wish I could simply sock away 8-9% and be set when the time comes (and have that time be after 25-30 years and not when I am nearly 70).
I think what you outlined is basically it - that's pretty much what I did to come up with those numbers.
I used to have (still do, someplace) an old CRC book of tables that you could use to look up such things. Also, spreadsheets like Excel have PV formulas.
You put in the annual payout, any increases such as COLAs, etc, and the period of the payout (say, 20 years), and out pops the PV. That assumes the principle is all used up at the end.
Annual increases can make a big difference in the PV, especially over 20 years or more. Heck, if she's getting a 3% COLA each year, she could take out 3% every year (if she had her pension as a lump sum) and never even touch the principle.
Our next month's deposit depends on this month's collections.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's obvious that the fault is China's. If there's an economic problem, it's always China. And Walmart for lost jobs. :surprise: :P
Well considering that even during the hey days of pension plans, a pension was only one leg of the "three legged stool" model retirement planning. Meaning everyone should have savings regardless of how good your pension and/or 401k plan is.
Having to be a Walmart greeter in retirement could be a reality for anyone who runs into bad luck and/or fails to save money. If my plan fails for one reason or another, I certainly won't be to proud to greet people at Walmart. Unfortunately there are no guarantees.
If something happened to my Teamster Pension, I would not be against a minimum wage job as a greeter at WM. The ones at our WM are cheerful and don't seem at all downtrodden. One guy is always singing. Great asset to the store.
It would be too much for me to catch up with the latest in my field to return. I would not want to anyway. I would go to work at WM now except it would tip me into the 1%, making me a target of the OWS. :shades:
The belief every retirement age greeter at places like Walmart are there because they have to be is plain false.
I know several retired people working those kinds of jobs so they have something to do and make a little extra coin in the process. My grandma worked part time until 3 weeks prior to her passing last year. She didn't need the money, she just liked getting out and seeing people.
I have a great uncle that was retired from a utility company, he worked as a Walmart greeter for several years just to get out of the house and see people. His pension is nearly as much as his working wages.
I think it's a generational skipping thing myself.
Looks like the heat may be back on:
Last stand: Union trying to organize U.S. plants owned by foreign carmakers (chicagotribune.com)
"In dozens of interviews with union officials, organizers and car company executives, a picture has emerged of UAW President Bob King's strategy. By appealing to German unions for help and by calling on the companies to do the right thing, King hopes to get VW and Daimler to surrender without a fight and let the union make its case directly to workers."
I don't think Tennessee has changed much since Nissan voted 2-1 against the UAW back in 2001. It is interesting to note that the German union that represents many auto workers are trying to help the UAW since they see cheap US labor as a factor in German job losses at their auto factories.
Even if they do get a contract in the VW or MB plants. The workers will be free to join if they desire. The onus would be on the UAW to provide some benefit to the workers. I don't think VW is paying much less than the new GM and Chrysler contracts. I don't see the transplants offering a defined pension plan. Only 401Ks would be my guess. Is VW offering a medical plan or are they gonna let Obama cover that for them?
For 2,500 jobs paying $30,000 a year, VW turned away 83,000 hopefuls at Chattanooga, which started up this year. Statistically, an applicant to Harvard University had a better chance of admission.
So why should a worker in TN with a $30,000 job want a union that has allowed the auto makers in other states cut the pay to $30,000 per year. Add onto that $700 in dues will be deducted. You think the company is going to raise the pay above the going rate to help out the UAW.... I don't think so. I think King knows the UAW is dying, losing more workers each year than they are gaining. Time to sell the Reuther private golf course and resort.
http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/view.additional-resource.php?resourceID=2139
That’s on par with wages paid by automakers in the Deep South, and about what newly hired workers at Detroit auto companies are getting.
But it’s sharply less than the $28 an hour wages earned by veteran workers at GM, Ford and Chrysler, while Toyota workers in Georgetown also are paid in that range."
The Atlantic
Only 41,000 applications. But it's a lot smaller town and not as scenic at Chattanooga.
I thought those UAW workers were getting 99$ per hour at GM from the talk that has been on the forum through the years.
What's with the $28 per hour for veterans now? What's the real pay scale? Did the other one include the cost of projected healthcare, retirement, death benefit, toilet paper for the factory, and other things?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually, as I've said many times, China is not to be trusted. But no single country is the one-stop-shopping fault for all of our nation's ills, either.
Take GM and C. It wasn't China, it was poor management compounded by union stupidity. A match made in h*ll. Just as the UAW always would complain that all their problems were caused by currency manipulation.
I look at it this way. Is it better for grandma/grandpa to sit in the rocker at home thinking of days gone by? Or is it a good thing for their physical and mental acuity to go to work, interact with coworkers and the public, and bring home some extra spending money?
What's with the $28 per hour for veterans now? What's the real pay scale? Did the other one include the cost of projected healthcare, retirement, death benefit, toilet paper for the factory, and other things?
I think you're looking at apples vs. oranges. The $28 is likely the hourly average rate for experienced workers. The $99 is when you factor in the value of pension, healthcare, vacation, vision, dental, life insurance, disability insurance, etc. And it might also include the amortized cost of covering underfunded pensions for existing retirees.
Then I can look at the parents of a close old friend - one a 30 year teacher, the other a 35 year park ranger - according to him, they bring in 100K+ in pension money. So they just travel around all year now. Insane.
Basically you and I are in agreement.
We can't blame the companies when the system they operate under incentivizes their behavior. It's government, tax and trade policies that must be changed.
Those figures that were bandied about prior to the GM & C bankruptcy did include and rightly so all the pension and HC benefits going to the retirees and their spouses. I saw figures all the way up to $156 per hour loaded rate. The loaded rate is used by the bean counters to estimate the cost of manufacturing a car. During the last Ford UAW negotiations the situation was $56 per hour with benefits. It did not include the legacy costs. In the case of GM I believe the Union is now responsible for the pension fund. I think the retirees did lose the gold plated HC plan for life. They may have gotten their pensions reduced also. For comparison when I retired my package was $64 per hour and our loaded rate we charged the customer was $138 per hour.
The loaded rate is also what companies use when they bid a job. In my case, the loaded rate for me is approximately 2.5 times my hourly rate, hourly rate being what I make (monthly salary divided by 173 hrs, or there 'bouts).
My BIL's parent are that way. His dad has a teamsters pension and his mom is a retired school teacher with a nice pension too. From what my BIL tells me, with SSI, pensions, and other savings, they're earning more retired than when they were working plus he's provided with health insurance. They've been traveling all over the country the past few years as well.
Those pensions are great as long as they're properly funded which it seems the teamsters are.
True.
Devil's advocate: wouldn't that job be better off filled by a person who needs that job instead of paying both unemployment and ss benefits?
Why????? Fiber splicing is a mindless, mind numbing job.
All you need to remember is your color code........Blue, Orange, Green, Brown.......... :P
In a perfect world I'd say yes. But this is far from it. When I used to work in the grocery business, older folks made great employees as baggers and clerks etc. They showed up on time and rarely called off.
I guess in a perfect situation, anyone who wants to work, should be able to do so regardless of actual need.
I don't know. Gagrice probably has more info. But from friends and family i know who are teamster members . It depends on the local your in and your classification.
With the trades such as heavy equipment operators etc. The employer pays a wage per the contract plus an additional hourly amount towards benefits.
With a lot of these types of jobs, you don't have a dedicated employer. You work out of the local and work a job. Depending on where the job is and the type of job determines the pay. You might work for the same company for years or work for various companies.
I know a guy who's a crane operator and if he works up in Chicago on a large crane he'll make over $50/hr plus benefits. Last summer he was on a job in southern Indiana and was only getting paid like $18/hr IIRC.
I know quite a few teamster members and it seems they all have very good benefits and pensions.
I took a couple classes on FO splicing. I would say it is way too boring. I like trouble shooting. I would probably do PBX and Key System installation and repair. Or better yet Computer networking. I like that. I really don't feel like working other than my garden. I would if I had to.
When I retired in 2006 the company was putting $7 per hour into my Teamster Pension plan. And they matched 3% in my 401K. Our healthcare from the Teamsters cost the company $7.91 per hour. When you add in SS, workmen's Comp and death benefits etc, it is almost double the wage you see on your check.
It is not hard to believe that Ford and GM are paying somewhere around $56 per hour for the older workers. I think they have cut the new hires down considerably.
PS
A lot of civil service people retire with a fat pension at 52 and COLA keeping them sometime ahead of what they made working.
My thinking is they should have stayed home mmost of the time and saved the money for their future retirement needs.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you just wandered from one WM to the next you could get by real cheap. We took our RV on one trip after retirement and decided that was not for us. Stayed in motels every night. Let the cat stay in the RV.
Well, depending on where your house was, selling it a few years back and buying an RV would have probably been a good idea;)
It's not for everyone, but I could see my wife I traveling in a nice motor home some day. I don't know if I'd sell my house to do it, but maybe sell the house, put some of that money into an RV travel around until will found where we wanted to stay, then buy another house.
You don't have to spend 500k plus on an RV. You can find a decent diesel pusher for $50-100k w/o to many miles. Buy one that's already depreciated and you won't lose to much money.
You wouldn't want to through all of your money into a new luxury RV, that's for sure. They do depreciate a lot and can be expensive to maintain.
But I don't think they have UAW workers at the Hampton. :P
Of course not UAW workers stay at the Hyatt or Ritz Carlton. :shades:
At least the old timers. The new recruits are lucky to afford the Motel 6.
Including Santa's house.... :P
Documents released in a classic Friday afternoon news dump show that labor unions representing 543,812 workers received waivers from President Barack Obama‘s signature legislation since June 17, 2011.
By contrast, private employers with a total of 69,813 employees, many of whom work for small businesses, were granted waivers.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/06/labor-unions-primary-recipients-of-obamacare-w- aivers/