Thanks for the link. It strengthened my resolve to never again buy a UAW assembled vehicle- and to redouble my efforts to encourage my friends to do likewise.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
If I was rich like you, Gary I would have a Florida home for 4 months out of the year like my grand parents.
You know what they say about owning a boat. The two best days are the day you bought the boat and the day you sold the boat. I can honestly say I am happy not owning a second or third home any longer. With the states crumbling under the welfare system, taxes on property owners continues to rise. Utilities have become horrible, maintenance etc. The good old days are gone, and likely to never return. Looking at what my parents went through the good old days never happened. I happen to be fortunate and at the right places at the right times. Not very many people were fortunate enough to belong to the UAW during their heyday. Its gone never to return. And I lost my dental before I retired. It was unsustainable and the Teamsters cut it back to almost nothing. No dental under MC. NO dental under Obamacare is my bet.
So listen to your buddy Fintail. Renting is the safest way to go.
Yeah, you should go buy one of those union made German, Japanese, Korean automobiles because the UAW workers support Obama because he saved there jobs!
On the skids? Certainly no more than anywhere else. I don't know how it is relevant to a UAW thread - hell, in Germany, high priced unionized labor (and there, virtually everyone in the manufacturing sector is in a union) can still make profitable products, due among other things to better labor relations and better leadership.
Simple expats, or relatively affluent retirees, most of whom have far more than the future will hold for their latter day peers, who are willing to trade first world surroundings for nice weather and cheap living?
Union dues do not go towards campaign contributions. Any money a union gives to a political campaign comes from a different fund to which the union members VOLUNTARILY contribute.
What most often happens because my grandmother was in charge of such work when she was part of the IUE was they would buy a Ford Truck and have raffle tickets to win the truck at usually $50 bucks a piece. The money raised beyond the expense of the automobile would be used to lobby members of congress and presidential candidates. This is no different than Bain Capital hosting a fundraiser for Mitt Romney or Amyway hosting a dinner for Rick Santorum election. We both know FannFreddie raised money for the lobbyist Newt. So no the union does not use union dues to buy politicians. They hold fundraisers which is strictly volunteer to use to support aka lobby politicians just like corporations have been doing for years.
I know right wing rags tell you differently but what I'm saying is the truth! It is fundraiser money and they have no choice but to do it in order to counter corporate giving especially now that citizen united decided money is speech! :sick:
I have my issues with the UAW but the over the top scapegoating accomplishes nothing.
I'll buy what car suits my needs. If it's UAW built good for them and good for me. If it's not just good for me. Life's too short to drive a car I don't like.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
With $5.00/gal gas and with the UAW worker on layoff might cut down the playtime for fundraisers..After all the POTUS wants the price of gas high to develop alternatives to oil...It's pure and simple...the WH keeps telling us..
Anybody that bought a new car in the past few years other than a shoe-box with 100 hp will see the value plummet just like the real estate market..Most cars will soon qualify for a new "Cash for Junkers" program..
Pickups and SUVs which are the profit makers will be the endangered species..
After running a UAW plant for 7 yrs near Flint, Mich and residing in Grosse Pointe, I watched the automotive bigwigs give the store away to the UAW.. Now our current regime in Washington finished the job with a gift to the UAW..ownership..and Chrysler to Fiat which is essentially a bankrupt outfit managed by socialists..
Ford is still a UAW and I am reconsidering my 2012 Mustang GT purchase to watch this sordid picture play out on oil pricing..I dumped a 2010 GT after a short affair and something getting less than 20mpg will soon be bargain..
Anything the UAW gets it's hands on by the current political handout Dem party is too corrupt for my money..
With $5.00/gal gas and with the UAW worker on layoff might cut down the playtime for fundraisers..After all the POTUS wants the price of gas high to develop alternatives to oil...It's pure and simple...the WH keeps telling us..
No, the White House doesn't tell us that. People like you do.
In 2008 at this time of year the gas prices were hideous as well.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
People seem to forget that. In 08 prices shot up in the spring and summer, fell off a cliff right after the GOP ticket was announced, then slowly came back up after inauguration day. But I guess that's for a gas prices forum.
I signed a few petitions to keep them open (USW jobs) so your drill baby drill does not do jack for pump prices if you can not turn that oil into gas but unfortunately the sheeple are dumbed down by the babble of Fixed News and Rush to know any better!!!
When gas was around $5.00 bucks a gallon in the spring and summer of 2008 I was selling SUV's at losses. We did not have a "flat" and it finally got to the point where if you had a SUV customer you would try to avoid taking the customer because you knew it was a nothing deal. Ownership was buried in our SUV's and Trucks and Yukons dropped $5K. But know we republicans will rewrite history. Gas was a buck a gallon all 8 years!
I'm not a fan of Daily Kos either and I was having a hard time linking to the other article also now for some reason but Fixed News will not report on this stuff because they want to sell the myth that Obama has all this control over world market prices, and if a oil company closes up because they are not making enough. If I was him I would federalize the oil industry and put the oil speculators under the guillotine for the short term! There were thousands of United Steel Workers getting the pink slip so the gas companies can keep prices artificially high. What good is the keystone pipeline if you can't refine the oil?
I have my issues with the UAW but the over the top scapegoating accomplishes nothing.
I'll buy what car suits my needs. If it's UAW built good for them and good for me. If it's not just good for me. Life's too short to drive a car I don't like.
You should really try to find something from the Detroit 3 to buy when picking out a car! Every dollar you spend here keeps someone employed and our automakers make some of the best products! :shades:
Retirement is something we'll never experience and our decendents will only read about in history books. - Lemko
I agree! Our generation will be remembered as the "drop dead" generation because we will work until we drop dead! I guess most of us won't have to worry about saving for retirement not that a lot of us would be able to anyways! :sick:
I'd have considered an American branded car but it had to be a convertible with usable space. I didn't want a retractable hardtop. And I got a deal because the salesman was an Edmunds buddy who had the thing too long on his lot.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
That said there is little the president can do about the prices. We are producing at much higher levels but limiting production in places where we are able to pump today, we are shutting refineries when they produce too much for the current price to hold and we are exporting scads of energy...
Even under W, an admitted "oil guy," prices jumped and dove with little rhyme or reason.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Even under W, an admitted "oil guy," prices jumped and dove with little rhyme or reason.
That is so true. I just like to jab all those that blamed Bush every time the price of gas went up. There cannot be a shortage of refined product. No lines or stations with out of gas signs. We produce so little of our own oil that we are captives of the World oil market. Actually OPEC is a better bunch to deal with than the folks producing North Sea oil. So as you said there is absolutely nothing Obama can do about the price of gas. I do think he is screwing up blocking drilling and phase 3 of the Keystone pipeline.
I think he mistook sales of SUV slowdown in 2007 and 08 as a gas price problem. It was the end of the Sub-Prime lending. People were not being loaned 105% of their home value to go buy an SUV or Motorhome. The party was over and the crash followed the tightening of easy money. By late 2007 there were HUGE discounts on all big vehicles. That is the only reason I bought the Sequoia. It was more than $5000 under Invoice. $10,000 under MSRP.
This is the email that sealed the deal:
I appreciate your consideration. For the Sequoia that I have in stock it is a luxury package which gives you the captains chairs in the second row. This package comes with rear entertainment and navigation as standard. It is a bit difficult to find a Sequoia with navigation that does not have this package. That being said it does not mean that there are not any out there just not very many. If you were to consider my vehicle and was motivated by price I would extend an offer of $41,684. This is a $10,000 discount with the rebate. Interested?
By late 2007 there were HUGE discounts on all big vehicles. That is the only reason I bought the Sequoia. It was more than $5000 under Invoice. $10,000 under MSRP.
I know, I got a killer deal on my 07 Expedition EB in July of 08. If gas goes up to $5/gal I'll be looking for another deal on a pickup or SUV.
Rocky, there is plenty of refining capacity. Do you have any shortages in your area? All stations here are going full blast. You have been fed a line of crap that more refining will bring down the price. The price is base on the cost of the crude oil. Refiners pay the market price for oil. Then charge for gas accordingly. We are refining so much we are selling diesel to other countries. Which is a good thing. It helps our horrible trade imbalance. You lived long enough in TX to see refineries shut down for routine maintenance. It is time for just that. So they are back on line for the Summer demand for gas.
The reason gas is more in relationship to the cost of oil, is our deflated dollars. A dollar will not buy as much today as it did in 2008.
USW Local 10-901 President Dave Miller, representing the employees losing their jobs at Sunoco Inc.’s Marcus Hook facility, discussed the impact on his members, many whose days are coming to an end at the Delaware County plant.
“Our union oil workers are doing as well as can be expected,” he said. “It will be tragic for their families and our communities if these refineries end up staying closed. We know the oil business since many of us have been refinery workers for several generations. If we let these facilities close, our eastern seaboard will suffer and the nation’s economy will be affected.”
USW Local 10-1 President Jim Savage, representing Sunoco’s Philadelphia workers, spoke of the thousands of jobs in jeopardy.
“In addition to the negative impact on the Northeast, there will be a painful human cost in Philadelphia and the surrounding counties,” he said. “More than 1,000 of our members have worked at these refineries and there are at least 1,000 more who have worked on a regular basis inside the fence on a contract basis.”
Gagrice, I do not understand why something anyone with common sense would say yeah that makes logical sense is so hard for you to grasp? This is a supply and demand issue. If you close down 4 refineries you are going to have far less capability to get gas to certain regions of the U.S. :confuse: It is simple logistics!
If you take less out of the market by "artificial means" (closing down 4 refineries) the price for that product will go up since their is less of a must need product. The profit margin then is artificially increased due to a supply shortage in the market place. We at this present moment are producing more oil than we can refine into gasoline. If I recall maybe it wasn't you but a few years ago you or somebody else was griping about oil refineries being shuttered, no? It was one of ya that said it and I'm just parroting the past is all because it makes logical sense!
That all the wasted oil in the spill and leakage into the Gulf is causing the gas price hike lately. It seems they always have some really lame excuse for gouging the prices up.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
WASHINGTON — Suddenly, the subway isn’t looking so bad.
New Yorkers will soon be paying $5 a gallon for gasoline — and those high prices will remain throughout next year, a former oil bigwig said yesterday.
New York’s gas prices are poised to rise because three outdated oil refineries — which have accounted for about half of the gas used in the Northeast — will soon be shut down, said John Hofmeister, a former CEO of Shell.
“That’s going to put the Mid-Atlantic states and New England in even greater jeopardy of having to bring in high-cost imports from elsewhere,” he said on CNN’s “State of the Union.”
The highest price for a gallon of regular hit $3.93 in the city yesterday, while the highest gallon of premium cost $4.15, according to the price-tracking site NewYorkGasPrices.com.
The national average stood at $3.67 yesterday. Hofmeister said the United States could relieve its dependence on Middle East oil by 2020 by increasing its own oil production, converting more natural gas into fuel and importing oil from Canada and Mexico.
“We could tell OPEC to take a hike,” he said. The cost per barrel, now at $109, will likely rise to $120 or $130 over the coming months, Hofmeister said.
Read it and weep, GAGRICE!!! So you are smarter and more knowledgeable than a Former Shell CEO, right? I tell you one thing buddy, I like you a lot but I must say I really enjoy proving you wrong! :P
Now the killer is if they could get the price up high enough they'd be perfectly happy to reopen some refineries. Remember all the silliness that we weren't building new refineries? Actually we were expanding capacity at existing refineries and then shutting some down because it was cheaper to refine it elsewhere and ship it over.
Now we're refining so much that oil products are one of our largest exports.
If you connect the dots it's not difficult to figure out that the oil companies do not put keeping American gas prices reasonable and predictable high on their priority list. Rather their high priority is to kick up the price as high as they can make it go. If it takes $150 a barrel to get from Saudi Arabia that's what they'll charge for domestic oil that may be produced at $5 a barrel. This why they call it being over a barrel.
Essentially this is the scenario that disproves the market settles everything theory. The market sometimes, and frequently in maybe the last ten years has no bearing in reality which really screw up life at the bottom.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Any excuse they can find and are not afraid to make them up if they need one!
Sadly a lot of good people that had good USW union jobs will be in the unemployment line! The right wingers want more oil production. "Drill Baby Drill" so Obama increases oil production by 10% in his administration and so big oil counters and closes down 4 refineries 3 of which are in the NE. When there prices increase well everyone else around the country will follow suit. I personally believe this is a political issue.
Since Obama is winning the war on the economy the GOP and there oil buddies are going to try to kill it just so they can get the black man out of office! They have tried economics, religion, and neither have worked so they are going to cut oil supplies and then promise $2.00 gas if you elect me! If I was Obama I would federalize the oil and gas companies and give the oil speculators the guillotine
Great points, Fezo.....The free market can be manipulated by those in control. Pooling use to be illegal but then again so was having a monopoly! :sick:
Rocky, that is NOT the whole story behind those refinery closures. As usual you only look at the one side of the story. Here is the rest of the story.
All three of the Philadelphia refineries are only equipped to process a lighter, sweeter variety of crude oil instead of the heavier, more sour kind used by most refining facilities. Lighter crude is more expensive, has to be shipped from a handful of countries, and makes up the vast majority of Sunoco’s crude oil purchases.
An article by a Reuters market analyst notes that, in July, Sunoco was getting most of its oil from Nigeria, Norway, and Azerbaijan, with access to Libya’s light crude hampered by NATO’s military intervention. Because its East Coast refineries have to import oil from overseas and lack the technical capability to process heavier varieties, Sunoco’s expenses on crude ranked among the highest of all energy companies. The author concludes that “Philadelphia and Marcus Hook are the two worst refineries to own in the United States” and predicts they will be converted into storage terminals for transporting natural gas and other materials from the Marcellus Shale. The cost involved in updating the refineries to process heavier crude would be prohibitively expensive, the author wrote, due to international market pressures facing North American and European companies.
Rocky did you read what you posted. This is what I have said all along. Bring in more from Canada. I don't think Mexico has a higher volume to sell US.
Hofmeister said the United States could relieve its dependence on Middle East oil by 2020 by increasing its own oil production, converting more natural gas into fuel and importing oil from Canada and Mexico.
Obama blocked more oil from Canada. Obama has blocked numerous drilling permits in the USA. So what am I supposed to weep about. Other than the fact we have plenty of gas and the cheapest is $4.25 per gallon.
Bruce, who has worked in both the Marcus Hook and trainer refineries for most of his life, said his situation is representative of most workers at the refinery. In many cases, workers have been there for 24-25 years. He also expressed his worries that education in the area would be gutted as local schools lose their tax base.
Nick, a union member at the Marcus Hook rally, remarked that even if the refineries are used to transport natural gas or for some other alternative, all of the estimates he has seen show that only about half of the labor force would be retained.
Nick went on to say, “large companies take the human element out of it” and “just leave without preparing the people or helping them retrain.” This is precisely the problem with a social system based on the profit motive rather than genuine human need. The ruling class has no room for a “human element” in the present economic crisis because it has to scramble and fight for its own interests. Sunoco incurred a $17 million loss in refining and supply last quarter. From the perspective of the company and its executives, the livelihoods of thousands of people are insignificant in comparison.
If the right to good-paying and secure jobs, decent schools and neighborhoods is to take priority, the working class must fight for the nationalization of the oil monopolies under democratic control, as part of the socialist reorganization of economic life in the US and internationally.
As I said we need to nationalize our oil refineries just like the article said. What puzzles me Gagrice is they survived quite fine when gas was under a buck a gallon and for years before that but all of a sudden now it is no longer cost effective to produce that same light sweet crude oil. Something isn't jiving in the pumpkin patch. I personally think they are blowing smoke up our asses to close it. With a barrel of oil going sky high I do not buy it isn't cost effective to convert the plants over. I still stand pat on what I said a post ago!!!!
Rocky did you read what you posted. This is what I have said all along. Bring in more from Canada. I don't think Mexico has a higher volume to sell US.
I'm not opposed to bringing more oil from Canada. You said these 3 refineries were not the cause of the spike in oil prices but the value of the dollar. I do think the dollar has a little to do with it but is far from the main reason.
I also believe Mexico, could give us a lot of oil. They have large untapped reserves. Maybe we should by force make them tap it and give us cheap oil in exchange for blanket amnesty for there 30 million illegals? We could work out a deal? That is what your hero Dr. Michael Savage has said!!! "A barrel of oil for every illegal alien" I think were his exact words.
Obama blocked more oil from Canada. Obama has blocked numerous drilling permits in the USA. So what am I supposed to weep about. Other than the fact we have plenty of gas and the cheapest is $4.25 per gallon.
We both know why he blocked the Keystone pipeline and that is because the right wingers want to build it over an aquifer and do not want any environmental studies done. They are playing politics trying to claim Obama is against it. Why have they not done the environmental studies and submit it to the EPA? Every other pipeline has had studies done why is this one exempt?
So the conclusion of this topic is the price of oil is not going up due to a lack of supply but a lack of capability to refine it and logistics. The oil barons rip us off again. A win for there bottom line and brownie political points for Mitten. The United Steel Workers like most blue collar workers are left holding the bag. They get nothing! :sick:
Rocky, it is obvious you are not interested in the facts only the Union workers position. So if those refineries are such gold mines of opportunity, why don't the USW members buy them and make tons of money? Just like the Unions have done with some of the airlines. They have tried to sell the refineries for quite a while with no one interested. Could it be true they are not cost effective? Sunoco has lost $800 million since 2009. Refining oil is not a big money maker. The big money makers in oil are the hedge fund operators like George Soros. He made $2 billion plus by running up the price of oil in 2008 then shorting it on the way down. Refiners make a few cents per gallon on gas. If there was a shortage of refineries, don't you think someone would have bought those from Sunoco? Did the socialist blog say that Sunoco was lying about the refineries ability to only process light sweet crude? As the good oil supply diminishes we are stuck with less desirable crude oil. Last, Sunoco has had those refineries on the market since 2009. If Obama wanted to save those 2000 USW jobs, why didn't the energy department offer to upgrade the refineries to handle the abundant supply of heavy crude? They threw $billions at energy projects that have failed or taken our money to China. I also wonder if you would be so fired up if they were non union workers in those refineries?
We both know why he blocked the Keystone pipeline and that is because the right wingers want to build it over an aquifer and do not want any environmental studies done.
Where do you pick up such misinformation? The environmental impact studies are COMPLETE. There are pipelines running back and forth over the Ogallala Aquifer in many places. The holdup is some nut in Nebraska trying to extort money from the pipeline company.
The U.S. Department of State is releasing the final version of the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the proposed Keystone XL oil pipeline project today.
The final EIS does not represent a decision on TransCanada’s permit application to build a 1,700-mile oil pipeline from Alberta, Canada to the Gulf Coast. Rather, the final EIS is an environmental and safety analysis of the proposed project, developed to inform the decision. The data in the EIS will be used along with additional input to determine whether the Keystone XL project is in the national interest.
The much bigger risk to the Ogallala aquifer is Corn farmers depleting it.
The aquifer, formed millions of years ago by rivers and streams, is “the single most important source of water in the High Plains region, providing nearly all the water for residential, industrial, and agricultural use,” according to the Water Encyclopedia.
The Ogallala was first pumped 100 years ago to irrigate farms and ranches. People continue to use it as if it were a renewable resource, but of course it isn’t. It is being drained faster than nature can recharge it, especially in the most arid areas, like Boise City, where high winds accelerate the evaporation of what little moisture there is.
So the aquifer is dropping lower and lower, and some geologists fear it could dry up in as soon as 25 or 30 years. This is a major issue confronting not just those eight states but the entire country.
You are correct about the corn farmers depleting the aquifer (thank you, ethanol) but the argument over the pipeline is indeed best location environmentally. It will get built.
Sure, there are folks that never want a pipeline or refinery or anything else built but that's hardly the consensus of progressive thought.
A big reasons that refineries are getting shut down is the same reason we're losing so much manufacturing capacity - it's cheaper to do it elsewhere and ship it in. Sad but it's true.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
A big reasons that refineries are getting shut down is the same reason we're losing so much manufacturing capacity - it's cheaper to do it elsewhere and ship it in. Sad but it's true.
I would guess that to be true. If they are losing $100s of millions on those NE refineries, they are not sustainable. I don't care who owns them. I did notice a side note on Sunoco. They are rated the most environmentally sound oil company in the USA, by the very tough Sierra club. Our lack of an Energy policy is also to blame. I would imagine we can get finished product cheaper from a refinery in OK or TX than PA. As you say the same reason foreign automakers are building new factories where the labor is cheaper and less militant. Or to put it in a better way. The workers are happy to have a decent job.
Okay, the Blue states get the $5.00 gas and the Red states get the $2.50 stuff!!!! Sounds fair to me..
Michigan will qualify for the Lib gas price for I am sure that everyone in Detroit will be able to vote multiple times, it's only fair..
Venezuela offers $.0.25 gal/gas with the nationalized oil guys, however excellent medical care is available in Cuba.. Both are great symbols of paradise and carefree living with the nanny govt handing out the goodies..
I always enjoyed the pheasant hunting in Mich and the Lake Michigan salmon fishing..Lake St. Clair, Mullet Lake, Black Lake, Lake Erie offered the great walleye and perch roundups..Took a few salmon out of Lake Huron.. The best salmon haul was out of Kenosha, Wisc, four of us got 24 in a couple hours, all keepers..piled them up on the shower floor of the motor home, and went back to Crystal Lake, Ill, and finished the job..
"This is precisely the problem with a social system based on the profit motive rather than genuine human need."
Our capitalist system is, has been, and should stay forever, profit-motivated...the huge difference between a socialist/liberal and a capitalist is that the liberal is incapable of comprehending that businesses are NOT established to create jobs, they are established to make the owner(s) PROFIT...and, if there is sufficient profit, then jobs are created...no profit, no jobs...
Companies have NEVER been established for human need, unless they are government run, meaning that they rarely make a profit and they are supported by taxpayers...
I established my company to provide legal services...in order to keep overhead low (and, hear this, MAXIMIZE PROFITS) I do all the work myself...I answer the phone (or AT&T voice mail does, at $8.00 a month) and I do my own data entry, pleadings, and client call-backs (that is why my clients usually hear back from me the same day or the next day, because I am customer oriented and do not use paralegals to "hide" from the clients)...I also take work home at night so I do not fall behind...
If the workload grew to the point I could not do it all, then I would hire someone and create a job...but only out of increased profits, so that I could keep up with the increased workload...by definition, the increased workload means that profits are rising to pay for that person's salary, and hopefully put additional profit in my pocket...but make no mistake, the profits must come first, or there is no extra job...the company was established for ME AND ME ALONE, as I am the capitalist that took the risk...
And that is why all the profit is mine, because I, and I alone, took the risk...non-capitalists are incapable of understanding this concept that I took the risk...all they know are their damn forced benefits that I have to pay for out of my profits (if I had the employee)...matching Soc Security payments, unemployment compensation that I pay for, not them, workers comp payments that I pay for out of my profits, so they get paid if injured on the job, 401k matching, and on and on it goes...THEY get the security and I take the risks...
That is why I don't hire anybody, because they would probably have an welfare attitude like rocky that tells him that the employer should pay for the training, even tho the employee might leave to work for someone else and I take the financial hit, and they get paid if laid off, and they get paid if injured on the job, and if anything happens to me all they say is, "well Bob, better luck next time you take another risk"
Those of us who take the risks are tired of the rockys of the world who think we employers exist to make their lives comfortable...
It is that union welfare attitude and it is in your DNA...why doesn;t the company pay to train me at their expense, why doesn;t the govt give me a free college education at taxpayer expense, and I NEVER see folks like you step up to the plate and undergo the hardship that entrepreneurs do and risk it all to start their business...take out your own student loans that you cannot get rid of in bankruptcy, do a work/study program so that you earn while attending school (or whatever training you want) and deal with 16 hour days like I used to do...
All you want is SOMEBODY ELSE, always somebody else, to step up and pay for what you think Sociery somehow "owes you" because you lost a job...
Capitalists really ARE caring people, but FIRST we care about US, because we established the business for US, and we take the risks...after WE have taken care of US (because we really do understand the concept of personal responsibility) then we will take care of (i.e. employ) others, and that is how a job is created...
These UAW people talk a good kumbayah story. But when the tires hit the road the old timers in the UAW said SCREW the new guys I am keeping what I got. They can get their own. So all this BS about Union people caring about their neighbors is pure BUNK. They are no different than the capitalist they love to hate. They are as greedy as the worst on Wall Street. Just not as smart to screw as many people. So they screw their fellow UAW members. People by nature are greedy corrupt and out for themselves. When you realize that it is easier to cope with what life has dealt you. Sure I would love to be rich like my little brother. With a 56 foot cat moored at St Thomas. He started with the same nothing I did. Went into the Army for 28 years. Excelled in his field and signed on to do the same thing when he retired. There are opportunities galore for those with ambition. Not much other choice, unless you are born rich like most of our political leaders, and get a free ride.
Comments
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
You know what they say about owning a boat. The two best days are the day you bought the boat and the day you sold the boat. I can honestly say I am happy not owning a second or third home any longer. With the states crumbling under the welfare system, taxes on property owners continues to rise. Utilities have become horrible, maintenance etc. The good old days are gone, and likely to never return. Looking at what my parents went through the good old days never happened. I happen to be fortunate and at the right places at the right times. Not very many people were fortunate enough to belong to the UAW during their heyday. Its gone never to return. And I lost my dental before I retired. It was unsustainable and the Teamsters cut it back to almost nothing. No dental under MC. NO dental under Obamacare is my bet.
So listen to your buddy Fintail. Renting is the safest way to go.
-Rocky
Simple expats, or relatively affluent retirees, most of whom have far more than the future will hold for their latter day peers, who are willing to trade first world surroundings for nice weather and cheap living?
Germans retire to Spain :shades:
-Rocky
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Spain has beautiful woman, lol! :shades:
-Rocky
-Rocky
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
What most often happens because my grandmother was in charge of such work when she was part of the IUE was they would buy a Ford Truck and have raffle tickets to win the truck at usually $50 bucks a piece. The money raised beyond the expense of the automobile would be used to lobby members of congress and presidential candidates. This is no different than Bain Capital hosting a fundraiser for Mitt Romney or Amyway hosting a dinner for Rick Santorum election. We both know FannFreddie raised money for the lobbyist Newt. So no the union does not use union dues to buy politicians. They hold fundraisers which is strictly volunteer to use to support aka lobby politicians just like corporations have been doing for years.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I have my issues with the UAW but the over the top scapegoating accomplishes nothing.
I'll buy what car suits my needs. If it's UAW built good for them and good for me. If it's not just good for me. Life's too short to drive a car I don't like.
Anybody that bought a new car in the past few years other than a shoe-box with 100 hp will see the value plummet just like the real estate market..Most cars will soon qualify for a new "Cash for Junkers" program..
Pickups and SUVs which are the profit makers will be the endangered species..
After running a UAW plant for 7 yrs near Flint, Mich and residing in Grosse Pointe, I watched the automotive bigwigs give the store away to the UAW.. Now our current regime in Washington finished the job with a gift to the UAW..ownership..and Chrysler to Fiat which is essentially a bankrupt outfit managed by socialists..
Ford is still a UAW and I am reconsidering my 2012 Mustang GT purchase to watch this sordid picture play out on oil pricing..I dumped a 2010 GT after a short affair and something getting less than 20mpg will soon be bargain..
Anything the UAW gets it's hands on by the current political handout Dem party is too corrupt for my money..
No, the White House doesn't tell us that. People like you do.
In 2008 at this time of year the gas prices were hideous as well.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-02-23/angry-about-high-gas-prices-blam- - e-shuttered-oil-refineries
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/24/1067981/-Gas-prices-Blame-refinery-clos- ures
I signed a few petitions to keep them open (USW jobs) so your drill baby drill does not do jack for pump prices if you can not turn that oil into gas but unfortunately the sheeple are dumbed down by the babble of Fixed News and Rush to know any better!!!
-Rocky
Daily Kos is not credible here for business.
The business week link won't open for me.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
-Rocky
I have my issues with the UAW but the over the top scapegoating accomplishes nothing.
I'll buy what car suits my needs. If it's UAW built good for them and good for me. If it's not just good for me. Life's too short to drive a car I don't like.
You should really try to find something from the Detroit 3 to buy when picking out a car! Every dollar you spend here keeps someone employed and our automakers make some of the best products! :shades:
Retirement is something we'll never experience and our decendents will only read about in history books. - Lemko
I agree! Our generation will be remembered as the "drop dead" generation because we will work until we drop dead! I guess most of us won't have to worry about saving for retirement not that a lot of us would be able to anyways! :sick:
-Rocky
They were hideous yes. But still $1.35 per gallon less at the same Costco on this day in 2008.
3/1/2008 I paid $2.91 per gallon
2/29/2012 I paid $4.26
That said there is little the president can do about the prices. We are producing at much higher levels but limiting production in places where we are able to pump today, we are shutting refineries when they produce too much for the current price to hold and we are exporting scads of energy...
Even under W, an admitted "oil guy," prices jumped and dove with little rhyme or reason.
But it doesn't show $5.00
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is so true. I just like to jab all those that blamed Bush every time the price of gas went up. There cannot be a shortage of refined product. No lines or stations with out of gas signs. We produce so little of our own oil that we are captives of the World oil market. Actually OPEC is a better bunch to deal with than the folks producing North Sea oil. So as you said there is absolutely nothing Obama can do about the price of gas. I do think he is screwing up blocking drilling and phase 3 of the Keystone pipeline.
This is the email that sealed the deal:
I appreciate your consideration. For the Sequoia that I have in stock it is a luxury package which gives you the captains chairs in the second row. This package comes with rear entertainment and navigation as standard. It is a bit difficult to find a Sequoia with navigation that does not have this package. That being said it does not mean that there are not any out there just not very many. If you were to consider my vehicle and was motivated by price I would extend an offer of $41,684. This is a $10,000 discount with the rebate. Interested?
I know, I got a killer deal on my 07 Expedition EB in July of 08. If gas goes up to $5/gal I'll be looking for another deal on a pickup or SUV.
-Rocky
The reason gas is more in relationship to the cost of oil, is our deflated dollars. A dollar will not buy as much today as it did in 2008.
USW Local 10-901 President Dave Miller, representing the employees losing their jobs at Sunoco Inc.’s Marcus Hook facility, discussed the impact on his members, many whose days are coming to an end at the Delaware County plant.
“Our union oil workers are doing as well as can be expected,” he said. “It will be tragic for their families and our communities if these refineries end up staying closed. We know the oil business since many of us have been refinery workers for several generations. If we let these facilities close, our eastern seaboard will suffer and the nation’s economy will be affected.”
USW Local 10-1 President Jim Savage, representing Sunoco’s Philadelphia workers, spoke of the thousands of jobs in jeopardy.
“In addition to the negative impact on the Northeast, there will be a painful human cost in Philadelphia and the surrounding counties,” he said. “More than 1,000 of our members have worked at these refineries and there are at least 1,000 more who have worked on a regular basis inside the fence on a contract basis.”
http://delcotimes.com/articles/2012/02/29/news/doc4f4ef08d5f150486148154.txt?vie- - - wmode=fullstory
Gagrice, I do not understand why something anyone with common sense would say yeah that makes logical sense is so hard for you to grasp? This is a supply and demand issue. If you close down 4 refineries you are going to have far less capability to get gas to certain regions of the U.S. :confuse: It is simple logistics!
If you take less out of the market by "artificial means" (closing down 4 refineries) the price for that product will go up since their is less of a must need product. The profit margin then is artificially increased due to a supply shortage in the market place. We at this present moment are producing more oil than we can refine into gasoline. If I recall maybe it wasn't you but a few years ago you or somebody else was griping about oil refineries being shuttered, no? It was one of ya that said it and I'm just parroting the past is all because it makes logical sense!
-Rocky
New Yorkers will soon be paying $5 a gallon for gasoline — and those high prices will remain throughout next year, a former oil bigwig said yesterday.
New York’s gas prices are poised to rise because three outdated oil refineries — which have accounted for about half of the gas used in the Northeast — will soon be shut down, said John Hofmeister, a former CEO of Shell.
“That’s going to put the Mid-Atlantic states and New England in even greater jeopardy of having to bring in high-cost imports from elsewhere,” he said on CNN’s “State of the Union.”
The highest price for a gallon of regular hit $3.93 in the city yesterday, while the highest gallon of premium cost $4.15, according to the price-tracking site NewYorkGasPrices.com.
The national average stood at $3.67 yesterday.
Hofmeister said the United States could relieve its dependence on Middle East oil by 2020 by increasing its own oil production, converting more natural gas into fuel and importing oil from Canada and Mexico.
“We could tell OPEC to take a hike,” he said. The cost per barrel, now at $109, will likely rise to $120 or $130 over the coming months, Hofmeister said.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/oil_big_ny_gas_to_hit_3gclVUdQj35REmOl9p5tGM#- - - - - - ixzz1nqM5LxIZ
Read it and weep, GAGRICE!!! So you are smarter and more knowledgeable than a Former Shell CEO, right?
-Rocky
Now we're refining so much that oil products are one of our largest exports.
If you connect the dots it's not difficult to figure out that the oil companies do not put keeping American gas prices reasonable and predictable high on their priority list. Rather their high priority is to kick up the price as high as they can make it go. If it takes $150 a barrel to get from Saudi Arabia that's what they'll charge for domestic oil that may be produced at $5 a barrel. This why they call it being over a barrel.
Essentially this is the scenario that disproves the market settles everything theory. The market sometimes, and frequently in maybe the last ten years has no bearing in reality which really screw up life at the bottom.
Sadly a lot of good people that had good USW union jobs will be in the unemployment line! The right wingers want more oil production. "Drill Baby Drill" so Obama increases oil production by 10% in his administration and so big oil counters and closes down 4 refineries 3 of which are in the NE. When there prices increase well everyone else around the country will follow suit. I personally believe this is a political issue.
Since Obama is winning the war on the economy the GOP and there oil buddies are going to try to kill it just so they can get the black man out of office! They have tried economics, religion, and neither have worked so they are going to cut oil supplies and then promise $2.00 gas if you elect me! If I was Obama I would federalize the oil and gas companies and give the oil speculators the guillotine
-Rocky
-Rocky
They'll promise $2 gas and will deliver it - when they think it will do them the most good and then it is back to $5.
The only good side to being forced by circumstances into retirement is I don't drive as far so I'm not spending more than 6 months ago.
All three of the Philadelphia refineries are only equipped to process a lighter, sweeter variety of crude oil instead of the heavier, more sour kind used by most refining facilities. Lighter crude is more expensive, has to be shipped from a handful of countries, and makes up the vast majority of Sunoco’s crude oil purchases.
An article by a Reuters market analyst notes that, in July, Sunoco was getting most of its oil from Nigeria, Norway, and Azerbaijan, with access to Libya’s light crude hampered by NATO’s military intervention. Because its East Coast refineries have to import oil from overseas and lack the technical capability to process heavier varieties, Sunoco’s expenses on crude ranked among the highest of all energy companies. The author concludes that “Philadelphia and Marcus Hook are the two worst refineries to own in the United States” and predicts they will be converted into storage terminals for transporting natural gas and other materials from the Marcellus Shale. The cost involved in updating the refineries to process heavier crude would be prohibitively expensive, the author wrote, due to international market pressures facing North American and European companies.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/phil-n22.shtml
Rocky did you read what you posted. This is what I have said all along. Bring in more from Canada. I don't think Mexico has a higher volume to sell US.
Hofmeister said the United States could relieve its dependence on Middle East oil by 2020 by increasing its own oil production, converting more natural gas into fuel and importing oil from Canada and Mexico.
Obama blocked more oil from Canada. Obama has blocked numerous drilling permits in the USA. So what am I supposed to weep about. Other than the fact we have plenty of gas and the cheapest is $4.25 per gallon.
Nick, a union member at the Marcus Hook rally, remarked that even if the refineries are used to transport natural gas or for some other alternative, all of the estimates he has seen show that only about half of the labor force would be retained.
Nick went on to say, “large companies take the human element out of it” and “just leave without preparing the people or helping them retrain.”
This is precisely the problem with a social system based on the profit motive rather than genuine human need. The ruling class has no room for a “human element” in the present economic crisis because it has to scramble and fight for its own interests. Sunoco incurred a $17 million loss in refining and supply last quarter. From the perspective of the company and its executives, the livelihoods of thousands of people are insignificant in comparison.
If the right to good-paying and secure jobs, decent schools and neighborhoods is to take priority, the working class must fight for the nationalization of the oil monopolies under democratic control, as part of the socialist reorganization of economic life in the US and internationally.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/phil-n22.shtml
As I said we need to nationalize our oil refineries just like the article said. What puzzles me Gagrice is they survived quite fine when gas was under a buck a gallon and for years before that but all of a sudden now it is no longer cost effective to produce that same light sweet crude oil. Something isn't jiving in the pumpkin patch. I personally think they are blowing smoke up our asses to close it. With a barrel of oil going sky high I do not buy it isn't cost effective to convert the plants over. I still stand pat on what I said a post ago!!!!
-Rocky
I'm not opposed to bringing more oil from Canada. You said these 3 refineries were not the cause of the spike in oil prices but the value of the dollar. I do think the dollar has a little to do with it but is far from the main reason.
I also believe Mexico, could give us a lot of oil. They have large untapped reserves. Maybe we should by force make them tap it and give us cheap oil in exchange for blanket amnesty for there 30 million illegals? We could work out a deal? That is what your hero Dr. Michael Savage has said!!! "A barrel of oil for every illegal alien" I think were his exact words.
Obama blocked more oil from Canada. Obama has blocked numerous drilling permits in the USA. So what am I supposed to weep about. Other than the fact we have plenty of gas and the cheapest is $4.25 per gallon.
We both know why he blocked the Keystone pipeline and that is because the right wingers want to build it over an aquifer and do not want any environmental studies done. They are playing politics trying to claim Obama is against it. Why have they not done the environmental studies and submit it to the EPA? Every other pipeline has had studies done why is this one exempt?
So the conclusion of this topic is the price of oil is not going up due to a lack of supply but a lack of capability to refine it and logistics. The oil barons rip us off again. A win for there bottom line and brownie political points for Mitten. The United Steel Workers like most blue collar workers are left holding the bag. They get nothing! :sick:
-Rocky
Where do you pick up such misinformation? The environmental impact studies are COMPLETE. There are pipelines running back and forth over the Ogallala Aquifer in many places. The holdup is some nut in Nebraska trying to extort money from the pipeline company.
The U.S. Department of State is releasing the final version of the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the proposed Keystone XL oil pipeline project today.
The final EIS does not represent a decision on TransCanada’s permit application to build a 1,700-mile oil pipeline from Alberta, Canada to the Gulf Coast. Rather, the final EIS is an environmental and safety analysis of the proposed project, developed to inform the decision. The data in the EIS will be used along with additional input to determine whether the Keystone XL project is in the national interest.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2011/08/171082.htm
The much bigger risk to the Ogallala aquifer is Corn farmers depleting it.
The aquifer, formed millions of years ago by rivers and streams, is “the single most important source of water in the High Plains region, providing nearly all the water for residential, industrial, and agricultural use,” according to the Water Encyclopedia.
The Ogallala was first pumped 100 years ago to irrigate farms and ranches. People continue to use it as if it were a renewable resource, but of course it isn’t. It is being drained faster than nature can recharge it, especially in the most arid areas, like Boise City, where high winds accelerate the evaporation of what little moisture there is.
So the aquifer is dropping lower and lower, and some geologists fear it could dry up in as soon as 25 or 30 years. This is a major issue confronting not just those eight states but the entire country.
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/aquifers-depletion-poses-sweeping-thre- at/
Sure, there are folks that never want a pipeline or refinery or anything else built but that's hardly the consensus of progressive thought.
A big reasons that refineries are getting shut down is the same reason we're losing so much manufacturing capacity - it's cheaper to do it elsewhere and ship it in. Sad but it's true.
Oooh, oooh! Can I get to drop the blade? Can I?
I would guess that to be true. If they are losing $100s of millions on those NE refineries, they are not sustainable. I don't care who owns them. I did notice a side note on Sunoco. They are rated the most environmentally sound oil company in the USA, by the very tough Sierra club. Our lack of an Energy policy is also to blame. I would imagine we can get finished product cheaper from a refinery in OK or TX than PA. As you say the same reason foreign automakers are building new factories where the labor is cheaper and less militant. Or to put it in a better way. The workers are happy to have a decent job.
Michigan will qualify for the Lib gas price for I am sure that everyone in Detroit will be able to vote multiple times, it's only fair..
Venezuela offers $.0.25 gal/gas with the nationalized oil guys, however excellent medical care is available in Cuba.. Both are great symbols of paradise and carefree living with the nanny govt handing out the goodies..
I always enjoyed the pheasant hunting in Mich and the Lake Michigan salmon fishing..Lake St. Clair, Mullet Lake, Black Lake, Lake Erie offered the great walleye and perch roundups..Took a few salmon out of Lake Huron.. The best salmon haul was out of Kenosha, Wisc, four of us got 24 in a couple hours, all keepers..piled them up on the shower floor of the motor home, and went back to Crystal Lake, Ill, and finished the job..
Our capitalist system is, has been, and should stay forever, profit-motivated...the huge difference between a socialist/liberal and a capitalist is that the liberal is incapable of comprehending that businesses are NOT established to create jobs, they are established to make the owner(s) PROFIT...and, if there is sufficient profit, then jobs are created...no profit, no jobs...
Companies have NEVER been established for human need, unless they are government run, meaning that they rarely make a profit and they are supported by taxpayers...
I established my company to provide legal services...in order to keep overhead low (and, hear this, MAXIMIZE PROFITS) I do all the work myself...I answer the phone (or AT&T voice mail does, at $8.00 a month) and I do my own data entry, pleadings, and client call-backs (that is why my clients usually hear back from me the same day or the next day, because I am customer oriented and do not use paralegals to "hide" from the clients)...I also take work home at night so I do not fall behind...
If the workload grew to the point I could not do it all, then I would hire someone and create a job...but only out of increased profits, so that I could keep up with the increased workload...by definition, the increased workload means that profits are rising to pay for that person's salary, and hopefully put additional profit in my pocket...but make no mistake, the profits must come first, or there is no extra job...the company was established for ME AND ME ALONE, as I am the capitalist that took the risk...
And that is why all the profit is mine, because I, and I alone, took the risk...non-capitalists are incapable of understanding this concept that I took the risk...all they know are their damn forced benefits that I have to pay for out of my profits (if I had the employee)...matching Soc Security payments, unemployment compensation that I pay for, not them, workers comp payments that I pay for out of my profits, so they get paid if injured on the job, 401k matching, and on and on it goes...THEY get the security and I take the risks...
That is why I don't hire anybody, because they would probably have an welfare attitude like rocky that tells him that the employer should pay for the training, even tho the employee might leave to work for someone else and I take the financial hit, and they get paid if laid off, and they get paid if injured on the job, and if anything happens to me all they say is, "well Bob, better luck next time you take another risk"
Those of us who take the risks are tired of the rockys of the world who think we employers exist to make their lives comfortable...
It is that union welfare attitude and it is in your DNA...why doesn;t the company pay to train me at their expense, why doesn;t the govt give me a free college education at taxpayer expense, and I NEVER see folks like you step up to the plate and undergo the hardship that entrepreneurs do and risk it all to start their business...take out your own student loans that you cannot get rid of in bankruptcy, do a work/study program so that you earn while attending school (or whatever training you want) and deal with 16 hour days like I used to do...
All you want is SOMEBODY ELSE, always somebody else, to step up and pay for what you think Sociery somehow "owes you" because you lost a job...
Capitalists really ARE caring people, but FIRST we care about US, because we established the business for US, and we take the risks...after WE have taken care of US (because we really do understand the concept of personal responsibility) then we will take care of (i.e. employ) others, and that is how a job is created...