Unless you have a hell of a employer match they are! Companies do not contribute to retirements anymore and if they do it's usually next to nothing!
I had one and my company matched me dollar for dollar up to 10%.....That is unheard of but it was negotiated by our union. After 4 years 11 months I had $81,000 in my 401K. Glad I cashed out because of my friends lost 40-50%
After 4 years 11 months I had $81,000 in my 401K. Glad I cashed out because of my friends lost 40-50%
Yeah, that was smart. Did your friends sell out? If they didn't sell any funds or cash out, they didn't lose a dime. I didn't, heck I've more than doubled my balances from before the crash.
Companies do not contribute to retirements anymore and if they do it's usually next to nothing!
I thing that's an exaggeration. If you don't get a match, then I wouldn't do a 401k, but an IRA or Roth IRA. But EVERYONE should save money regardless of a pension. And saving in a bank is a guaranteed loss.
Rocky, when did you cash out of your 401(K)? Do you know if your friends are still down 40-50% from that time?
Yes, the market took a huge hit in late 2008 and early 2009. My 401(K) balance was slashed in half. However, I stayed the course and kept contributing .. I looked at it as buying on sale. Eventually the market rebounded and so has the balance in my account.
I am also lucky to have a small pension account with my employer; it's no longer having any money added to it, but the balance is slowly growing with interest.
OTOH, my father worked as a firefighter for almost 34 years. He retired 20 years ago and his pension hasn't really grown too much over the years. In addition, he collects a small SS check each month, and he also had another account that was meant to provide a small check each month until the balance went to $0. My folks figured that account would last 4 or 5 years at most; over 20 years later, they expect the final check to come in the next few months, due solely to the strength of the stock market.
Like it or not, I think defined pensions are a thing of the past, unless you work for a public agency. Even my wife, who works for a school district, has the option of contributing to a 403(b), which is a 401(k) for public employees.
Go look at the matches. A typical match is 2-3% if they go any higher like up to 6% it's usally $0.50 on the dollar but most employers 401K's don't even do that for new hires! That is why so many in my generation says we will work until we drop dead! We do not have pension plans like my old man and Gagrice. I'm referring to your average working stiff, dieselone not you high society folks like you! Yeah, you and the wife make six figures a year so you have enough disposable income to invest large sums of cash into IRA's but your average Joe Six Pack will work until he drops dead!!! :lemon:
Even with the market coming back they have not recovered what they lost! The employer told them to cut there losses and they went with a new provider. They did not get to recover! The people at the company held a vote and if you are belly up so be it!!! You get enrolled into the new plan and if they don't have that same mutual fund oh well!!!
rocky, that simply is not true...401Ks are not a scam...my wife contributes 6% of her earnings to the 401K and the bank matches it 50% up to some limit (and I do not know the limit)...many folks 401Ks crashed after the dot com boom crashed, because they put their money into what WAS a roulette wheel, dot com stocks with no sales, no earnings, no assets, yet somehow had share prices of $100/share...THAT was foolhardy...
But those who put their money into REAL stocks, had them go down in 2000 and then come back over time to go even higher until 2008...all that means is that pure "buy and hold" may not work, but buying the right stocks can be...
" After 4 years 11 months I had $81,000 in my 401K."...rocky, that is amazing...you prove my point...5 years and $81K is a lot of money...
Maybe there are no blue collar millionaires, but defined benefit pensions are pretty much gone, and GM and other like prove why...they simply cannot pay into a retirement those kind of amounts anymore, maybe they never really could, unless they borrowed money for pension fund contributions...
rocky, like it or not, you are responsible for your future and your retirement...and it never should be any other way...
Allow me to ask the question a different way...at what point in your life DO you become responsible for your life, as opposed to thinking it is always someone else's responsibility to do so...
rocky, that simply is not true...401Ks are not a scam...my wife contributes 6% of her earnings to the 401K and the bank matches it 50% up to some limit (and I do not know the limit)...many folks 401Ks crashed after the dot com boom crashed, because they put their money into what WAS a roulette wheel, dot com stocks with no sales, no earnings, no assets, yet somehow had share prices of $100/share...THAT was foolhardy...
Unless you make a great salary people simply do not have the disposable income to fund a 401K properly! If you are making $14 bucks an hour in a factory how in the hell are you going to have enough money to throw into a 401K? Seriously? This is not rocket science!!!! This is common sense! I'm talking about average people not six figure lawyers!!!
But those who put their money into REAL stocks, had them go down in 2000 and then come back over time to go even higher until 2008...all that means is that pure "buy and hold" may not work, but buying the right stocks can be...
What is the person to do if there company switches 401K providers and you are down 20% or so in that fund? You folks talk about all the benefits of a 401K but my employer switched financial institutions 3 times and of those 3 times I was down $7K when we switched. I was pretty mad because the market was coming back.
" After 4 years 11 months I had $81,000 in my 401K."...rocky, that is amazing...you prove my point...5 years and $81K is a lot of money...
Do you choose to read what you want to? :confuse: I said I had a UNION NEGOTIATED 401K PLAN WHERE MY EMPLOYER MATCHED US DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR UP TO 10%.....So If I made $1500 at 10% they took out $150 and my company matched me $150 dollars which means I was contributing $300 dollars towards my retirement for those 2 weeks! I do not know any other person who has a dollar for dollar 10% 401K. As I said most 401K plans in a non union shop or company typically match 3% if you put in 6% but many match nothing.
Maybe there are no blue collar millionaires, but defined benefit pensions are pretty much gone, and GM and other like prove why...they simply cannot pay into a retirement those kind of amounts anymore, maybe they never really could, unless they borrowed money for pension fund contributions...
The White Collar Suits killed them off! It is more money in there pocket not to mention it helps drive up the stock market for the 1% They can insider trade and make there money while the average working still is left holding the bag!!!
rocky, like it or not, you are responsible for your future and your retirement...and it never should be any other way...
That is where you and I differ! I do not have the tools or education to play the stock market. Neither does 99% of the people in this country no matter how smart they think they are. Investing in the stock market should be left to the professionals because if you think you are a day trader type I've seen them lose there friggen [non-permissible content removed]!!! Funny how losing six figures in the market will sober up someone who is arrogant! Funny how that is all they talked about was how brilliant they were to not bringing that topic up! I'm sure you have a "fool proof" system too, right? Gimmie #32 on the wheel.... I'm feeling lucky tonight! :P
Allow me to ask the question a different way...at what point in your life DO you become responsible for your life, as opposed to thinking it is always someone else's responsibility to do so...
I am responsible for my life but unlike you I feel we are in this battle together. It is us vs. them. the 99% vs. the 1% and yes it is class warfare!!! The 1% have hijacked and stolen my democracy. They buy of politicians, attorney's, judges, and anyone else that posses a threat to there way of life! That is why I am strongly opposed to capitalism. It has destroyed our country. Look at it! We live in a world where you have politicians calling corporations people!!!! Do I really need to say anymore??? :sick:
Also his pension is reduced once he hits Social Security. I know the teamster plan doesn't do that! So you have the "gold plated" plan actually!
I started drawing my pension along with SS. If I had retired in my late 50s it would have been a much reduced rate. No where near $3k after 37 years as a Teamster. I got NO HC or COL. Not sure how old your Dad was at retirement, but sounds better than our Teamster plan. We don't have a reduction for SS that I know of.
He started at GM, I believe it was 21 so he retired at 50 or 51. If he worked longer he got no more money per month and he would of had to sell his place if he wanted to stay under the GM umbrella.
-Rocky
P.S. When my dad hits social security age his pension is reduced and social security makes up the difference.
Pensions are a scam, too! Promises that in most cases cannot be met. When you lose a pension all the way, you'd wish you had a 401K. More chance of competency on your own part than some company.
Unless you make a great salary people simply do not have the disposable income to fund a 401K properly!
Yet somehow many (most?) of them can afford smoking, drinking, oodles of children, flat-screen TVs, multiple cars, boats, vacations, RVs, etc.... I call it poor choices.
The reason I have money is that while my irresponsible HS friends were having all of the things listed above, I was sober, busting my [non-permissible content removed] in college while working two jobs, and driving my first car (bought used) for 18 years.
I see a lot more people who have retired on pensions than I've met retired on IRA's and 401K's in the working class. Retiring on a 401K is a pipe dream!!!
Do the math on what $14 bucks an hour will leave you after you pay your basic bills and you are going to tell me you are going to retire on that? You would be the first!!!! I'm using the $14 bucks an hour wage because that is all that non union companies want to pay and sadly some people think that is a good paying job, smh!!!
I see a lot more people who have retired on pensions than I've met retired on IRA's and 401K's in the working class.
...perhaps because you're in Michigan and your family and friends are mostly from the unionized auto industry? Few people in other parts of the country in that situation, unless they're government workers.
Yeah, you and the wife make six figures a year so you have enough disposable income to invest large sums of cash into IRA's but your average Joe Six Pack will work until he drops dead!!! :lemon:
We didn't start out that way. When we got married in 1996, she was in school (not working much), I was barely earning $25k a year, but I still contributed enough to my 401k to get the max company match. I enrolled as soon as I was eligible.
I wish we all had guaranteed pensions where the risk was on someone else. I agree that's great when it works. But it's not a guarantee to a comfy retirement. My FIL lost 1/2 his pension through PGBC when his mill went belly up. My grandfather retired in 1979 from the Gary steel mills. His pension was $900 a month with no COLA. By 1990, that wasn't enough to live on. Everyone needs some type of savings whether they have a pension or not.
Start saving consistently a little bit every month while in your 20's, it will turn into something.
hat is why so many in my generation says we will work until we drop dead!
Unfortunately that's they way it's always been for many. Even during the peak of pensions.
On the flip side, due to my wife's job, we've moved so often I've had to seek new employment with every move. I've never been anywhere long enough to qualify for a pension (if it were available) I've rolled my 401k over with every move and it's mine to make the best of.
tlong, Even non union workers have pensions and retired with healthcare benefits both blue and white collar. Of course my generation won't see that but that is the way it was here up until George W. Bush took office and destroyed our economy!!!!
The reason I have money is that while my irresponsible HS friends were having all of the things listed above, I was sober, busting my [non-permissible content removed] in college while working two jobs, and driving my first car (bought used) for 18 years.
We didn't start out that way. When we got married in 1996, she was in school (not working much), I was barely earning $25k a year, but I still contributed enough to my 401k to get the max company match. I enrolled as soon as I was eligible.
I did the same thing when I was young but $25K went a hell of a lot further in 1996 than it does today!
I wish we all had guaranteed pensions where the risk was on someone else. I agree that's great when it works. But it's not a guarantee to a comfy retirement. My FIL lost 1/2 his pension through PGBC when his mill went belly up. My grandfather retired in 1979 from the Gary steel mills. His pension was $900 a month with no COLA. By 1990, that wasn't enough to live on. Everyone needs some type of savings whether they have a pension or not.
What is most amazing is every other 1st would nation still gives employees pension plans but some how we can't afford to do it here? The problem is employers take huge risks like buying failed companies and try to turn the ship around and turn a profit but if they fail the working stiff here in the states has to pay the price. He had nothing to do with the CEO running the ship (company) into the iceberg yet he has to take the pay and benefit cut! That is why my friend I disagree with marsha7....Take for example GM purchased Saab, they never turned a profit on that brand yet guess who took pay cuts for managements failure? You guessed it the workers who had nothing to do with that decision.
GM's former management started the Saturn brand and while it did well at first they neglected it for years and it wasn't competitive and it started losing money. GM purchased and invested in many foreign car companies and lost money. Opel has never turned a profit to the best of my knowledge. That is why dieselone, I believe in strong regulation and caps on CEO pay in this country.
Start saving consistently a little bit every month while in your 20's, it will turn into something.
I agree but as we both know your average 20 something year old is buried in debt with student loans.
Unfortunately that's they way it's always been for many. Even during the peak of pensions.
I guess I'm immune to that reality. Most everyone I knew had some sort of a pension and was able to retire after 30 or 40 years. I know a century ago it wasn't that way but instead of progressing forward we have taken a turn backwards in my opinion!!!
On the flip side, due to my wife's job, we've moved so often I've had to seek new employment with every move. I've never been anywhere long enough to qualify for a pension (if it were available) I've rolled my 401k over with every move and it's mine to make the best of.
Yep, unfortunately that is the new reality we live in.....You can not work some place hardly anymore for 30 or 40 years and retire. I do agree that is the flexibility of a 401K plan. I personally would like to see our nation come up with some sort of a national pension plan like the Norwegians are doing. Of course they are subsidizing it with oil revenue.
Well Clinton left office there were 23 million new jobs created and we had a budget surplus. When Dubya left office we had the worst economic recession since the great depression thanks to the banksters on Wall Street. I do blame both sides though for this mess and neither side is willing to do the right things necessary to right the ship!!!
Hopefully the UAW and other Labor Unions will make a come back and people will wise up and realize it's going to take a strong middle class to rebuild this nation.
I've rolled my 401k over with every move and it's mine to make the best of.
And that is the beauty of a 401k vs a defined pension. A company may offer a pension and lay you off after 4.5 years and You get ZERO. With a 401K you say see you bye and transfer it to your next job. I had no problem rolling my 401k over to an IRA when I retired. It currently worth 25% more than when I retired in 2006. It took a 50% hit in 2008 and has recovered to the peak of 2007. For the record it is now in Fidelity. It was in a Telephone fund prior. I had complete control. I could have put it all in a secure MM account. I picked the funds based on past performance and they are doing fine. I also bought some Ford when it hit bottom and that has been more than fine. You have complete control of your money in a 401K.
Hopefully the UAW and other Labor Unions will make a come back and people will wise up and realize it's going to take a strong middle class to rebuild this nation.
Rocky, you need to face reality. The UAW is dead. They just have not buried them. I would bet there are fewer UAW members today than last week, or last year, or 6 years ago.
I was doing some calculating. On my 1965 pay stub they took out 12% for savings in the AT&T stock plan(no matching). 7% was taken out for medical. 12% for IRS & 3.5% for SS. That left me for 2 weeks $127 to live on. I had been working for Bell 5 years at the time. In 2012 dollars that is about $459 per week. If that is what I was making today you would consider me poverty level. I would not be paying 12% income tax as I did back then. And to top it all off I was putting my wife through college and she did not work. By the way at the time AT&T was the largest company in the world. I did not have a TV and chopped wood to heat. It was not the cushy life the UAW workers had back them with a winter home in Florida. But I got by and kept plugging along. Trying to make it through the messes the Democrats kept making. And now I am doing fine. No substitute for hard work and perserverance.
I did the same thing when I was young but $25K went a hell of a lot further in 1996 than it does today!
True, but I had student loans to pay and a wife that was a full time college student. That same job pays roughly $35-40k today. We certainly were scrimping to get by.
What is most amazing is every other 1st would nation still gives employees pension plans but some how we can't afford to do it here?
And many of those systems are under pressure too.
guess I'm immune to that reality. Most everyone I knew had some sort of a pension and was able to retire after 30 or 40 years. I know a century ago it wasn't that way but instead of progressing forward we have taken a turn backwards in my opinion!!!
What you've experience with the auto industry I saw first hand 20 years earlier with the steel mills back in the 80's. Huge layoffs, bankruptcies, consolidation etc. Workers made great money with all the o/t they wanted. Unfortunately many didn't save any of it. My FIL was able to retire with his reduced pension because he never bought new cars or upgraded his house, plus he put his wife through college while he was still making good money. He actually amassed a large 401k nest egg by putting the max in it every year from 1986 to 1999 even though he didn't receive any match.
IIRC, even at the peak of pension coverage, it never exceeded 50% of the total work force.
I personally would like to see our nation come up with some sort of a national pension plan like the Norwegians are doing. Of course they are subsidizing it with oil revenue.
We do have a national plan, it's called Social Security;) The government has done a great job managing it too;)
I agree but as we both know your average 20 something year old is buried in debt with student loans.
As of 2010, the average debt for a 4 year degree was 25k, the average starting pay was $47k. Certainly manageable if you're gainfully employed. Considering the average income of a HS graduate is $26k and unemployment is 20% vs 9% for recent college grads. That's a trade off and risk worth taking.
But yeah, college expenses are out of control at many universities.
ep, unfortunately that is the new reality we live in.....You can not work some place hardly anymore for 30 or 40 years and retire.
That's not necessarily bad. Few of my college friends work for the company they initially hired with out of college. But most have been better off by obtaining better positions or going to work for companies that were better to work for.
I've never had a desire to work at same place for 20-40 years and I certainly wouldn't want to feel stuck at some crap hole over a pension. My wife is one of the few that probably will retire with her only employer as she's 40 and has 23 years in. No pension, but so far she's benefited from a generous 401k and profit sharing plan.
GM's former management started the Saturn brand and while it did well at first they neglected it for years and it wasn't competitive and it started losing money.
Thank GM's toxic management culture for that debacle.
Well Clinton left office there were 23 million new jobs created and we had a budget surplus.
I'll agree with you that Clinton is looking pretty d@mn good compared to our friend Barrack. However Bill had the advantage of the internet revolution and a booming economy. But by today's standards he was moderate, and I'd take him in a heartbeat over BO.
George had an awful lot of issues, but I don't see the economy as all his fault. But he wasn't very bright, he got way too adventurous with the wars, and he spent too much.
BO is spending so much more than Bush that he's even worse. But he did get Osama and he isn't really to blame for most of the current economic downturn. But he seems to think he can spend his way to prosperity while spreading the wealth to the lazy. We all know how well that is going to work. :surprise:
"GM's former management started the Saturn brand and while it did well at first they neglected it for years and it wasn't competitive and it started losing money. "
Thank GM's toxic management culture for that debacle.
Another reason Saturn failed was that the UAW was all upset over different work rules at Saturn. They didn't like the fact that GM wanted to run Saturn more like a "foreign brand". And as I recall, part of one union agreement was to re-institute those work rules at Saturn. Typical union thuggery holding GM management over a barrel. So when you look at the failure of Saturn, also make sure to blame the union. So don't complain about how bad things are at GM and somehow it's all the management. Because the union was quite complicit in the choices GM management had to make. And the gravy train doesn't run forever, or for free....
Naaaah. That was Bush's fault. Everything set up to find him came from the Bush era.
>and he isn't really to blame for most of the current economic downturn.
Naaaah. The downturn came from the Democrats in congress insisting on buddying up to Fannie and Freddy to give mortgages away from OPM and buddying up to Wall Street all the while whining about them--just as BO is doing. When Bush tried to slow the financial waste slide in Fannie and Freddy forcing banks to give money away, he was rebuked by such folks as Frank and Waters (true FORs) for trying to hurt little people to whom they wanted to give money to buy votes.
Do you know if your friends are still down 40-50% from that time?
I'm willing to bet the only way that is possible is if they transferred out of stock based funds and into a cash equivalent fund.
I just looked over all of the fund choices in my 401k. Only one has a negative return over the past 5 years and that's an international fund. Every other fund choice has a positive return over the past 1 yr, 3yr, 5 yr, and 10yr durations. So the only way to still have a negative return from the financial crash is if you rolled everything out of stock funds and into stable asset (cash equivalent) when the market was at it's lowest point.
If you did what most people did, left it alone, and kept contributing, your account is up substantially. I just looked at our retirement balances going back to pre crash our account balances are up 68% from mid 2008. Most it went down was 25% and now it's up roughly 110% from the low. Granted those number include contributions which we increased after the crash.
I'm willing to bet the only way that is possible is if they transferred out of stock based funds and into a cash equivalent fund.
That was my experience. A guy I worked with had about the same amount in his 401K as I did. He panicked in early 2008 and converted all his to cash. We both were heavy into FLPSX. I did not get out of any of the funds. I took what cash was in my account and bought Ford when it was down at $1.76. Now I am within a couple grand of the 2007 peak. And he is down about 40% from me.
Now those that were heavy into dot.com stocks when the market tanked in 2000 are not likely to ever come back to the 1999 peaks. So many of those companies are now history and people's money went away with the smart ones. The sunny states are filled with dot.com millionaires that saw the bubble for what it was. My wife was not so lucky with her Paine Webber IRA. They churned her investment from $348k down to $106k when they went broke in 2000. She made the mistake of trusting a broker with her money. Money in a 401K is yours and your responsibility. If you are not comfortable with investing put it in a low risk 5 star mutual fund. Funds like FGMNX have consistently returned 6%+ with no hits even in 2008.
Naaaah. The downturn came from the Democrats in congress insisting on buddying up to Fannie and Freddy
But the republicans ran congress during some of the time this was happening too. I think both parties need to take the rap on this economic mess and what led to it. But to be fair, sometimes the whims of the business cycle impact as well and its not a partisan thing. Honestly, over time I've come to believe there is another factor at play as well, the federal reserve. Think about it, Volcker policies brought on huge inflation in the 80's, Greenspan's easy money in the 90's and 00's led to the bubble bursting in 07/08 and now Bernanke has this questionable artifical low interest rate policy in effect. We're probably mostly middle aged, whether retired or working. But you know who's getting screwed over the most - the young adults. No pensions, 401K's in an environment of artfiicially low returns, extensions to retirement and medicare age while business is frequently kicking people out well before that age. Frankly, I don't see either party and their respective special interests fixing it, its going to take new political parties and personnel (and special interest money from both sides will fight that tooth and nail).
Gotta be careful on mutual fund ratings because they tend to be backward looking. I think the key is diversified holdings, dollar cost averaging and low cost funds. Probably a little risk as well because savings bonds and bank account stuff will never keep up with inflation over time.
I agree with you on ratings. I also would never recommend a specific fund or stock. I don't want to lose friends when it is screwed up. I have a history of making financial mistakes.
I also agree on your take concerning the various parties responsible for the economic mess we are in. I just get tired of hearing Obama and company blame everything on Bush. The Unions and Union diehards are also big on blaming everyone but themselves for the messes. There is plenty of blame to go around. I read an analysis by economists. They took a vote and Alan Greenspan won first place in the blame for the economic mess.
Only notable one I've seen this trip was a BMW at a rest stop. Maybe alternator problems. They had the trunk open and stuff pulled out to reach the battery, but were unable to jump start it.
Thought this was interesting:
"Alan Mulally is well worth his fat compensation package. So much so that criticism of his paydays has been muted this year.
Not only did he save the Ford family from losing their company after a century of control, he saved tens of thousands of UAW members from losing their jobs, and tens of thousands of parts suppliers from losing theirs." (windsorstar.com)
Not only did he save the Ford family from losing their company after a century of control, he saved tens of thousands of UAW members from losing their jobs, and tens of thousands of parts suppliers from losing theirs."
Not to mention my 600% increase in stock value. I am a big Mulally fan. If he were to go I would sell my Ford stock in a heartbeat.
It's well-paying if living in the 'hood or a trailer park and doing all your shopping at Wal~Mart is you're idea of "middle class." Heck, you might even have enough left over to make payments on that 125K-mile 2001 Saturn you been eyeing up at the buy-here-pay-here lot! Who knows? Maybe you can have a college fund for junior to go to rodeo clown college?
Of course, self-denial and hoarding cash for the future could have its drawbacks!
"Hey, ladies! Check out my new Corvette! Saved up and paid cash for it this morning!" "Hee hee hee hee! Look at the funny old man in the 'Vette, girls! Isn't he cute!" "Dang! Where's my Viagra?"
"He was a good man! WE'RE GOING TO VEGAS, GIRLS! Where's Armando the pool boy?"
Do you want to enjoy something while you are still healthy and fit, or hoard it all for when you are decrepit? Of course, some who made little money in theit youth were still able to buy new cars, lived in family owned rental housing, etc.
Do you want to enjoy something while you are still healthy and fit, or hoard it all for when you are decrepit?
That's a balancing act. I want to enjoy it now, but I'd' rather not be eating dog food when I'm 80+ either. Life would be much simpler if we knew what our expiration date is;)
So I try to do what I want with out spending to much. One area I've been scrimping on is cars. I think I'm going to just keep the Expedition until it dies.
The best retirement plan is the one where the check to the undertaker bounces :shades:
Seeing as the future being made by our race to the bottom certainly isn't going to be as good as today, I have no qualms with living a little, while I can.
With the luck you've had with the Expy, you could be shopping soon
With the luck you've had with the Expy, you could be shopping soon
So true. I'm crossing my fingers, it's about to turn 100k and currently is running great and overall is holding up okay (other than a few paint and trim issues). I'd like to at least get a year or two more out of it. But being what it is, that can change today;)
Maybe one of those fuel efficient new F-series could work ...but I don't know how much they can tow.
It could work, but you can't get the standard v6 in a Supercrew. Though even in an extended cab it really doesn't have enough towing capacity for me (around 6k lbs IIRC). I've driven an Ecoboost Supercrew and it's indeed impressive. But am still a bit gun shy on wanting a direct injected, twin turbo v6 from Ford. If problems arise I don't want to think how much that could cost to keep running.
Comments
-Rocky
I had one and my company matched me dollar for dollar up to 10%.....That is unheard of but it was negotiated by our union. After 4 years 11 months I had $81,000 in my 401K. Glad I cashed out because of my friends lost 40-50%
-Rocky
Yeah, that was smart. Did your friends sell out? If they didn't sell any funds or cash out, they didn't lose a dime. I didn't, heck I've more than doubled my balances from before the crash.
Companies do not contribute to retirements anymore and if they do it's usually next to nothing!
I thing that's an exaggeration. If you don't get a match, then I wouldn't do a 401k, but an IRA or Roth IRA. But EVERYONE should save money regardless of a pension. And saving in a bank is a guaranteed loss.
Rocky, when did you cash out of your 401(K)? Do you know if your friends are still down 40-50% from that time?
Yes, the market took a huge hit in late 2008 and early 2009. My 401(K) balance was slashed in half. However, I stayed the course and kept contributing .. I looked at it as buying on sale. Eventually the market rebounded and so has the balance in my account.
I am also lucky to have a small pension account with my employer; it's no longer having any money added to it, but the balance is slowly growing with interest.
OTOH, my father worked as a firefighter for almost 34 years. He retired 20 years ago and his pension hasn't really grown too much over the years. In addition, he collects a small SS check each month, and he also had another account that was meant to provide a small check each month until the balance went to $0. My folks figured that account would last 4 or 5 years at most; over 20 years later, they expect the final check to come in the next few months, due solely to the strength of the stock market.
Like it or not, I think defined pensions are a thing of the past, unless you work for a public agency. Even my wife, who works for a school district, has the option of contributing to a 403(b), which is a 401(k) for public employees.
-Rocky
-Rocky
But those who put their money into REAL stocks, had them go down in 2000 and then come back over time to go even higher until 2008...all that means is that pure "buy and hold" may not work, but buying the right stocks can be...
" After 4 years 11 months I had $81,000 in my 401K."...rocky, that is amazing...you prove my point...5 years and $81K is a lot of money...
Maybe there are no blue collar millionaires, but defined benefit pensions are pretty much gone, and GM and other like prove why...they simply cannot pay into a retirement those kind of amounts anymore, maybe they never really could, unless they borrowed money for pension fund contributions...
rocky, like it or not, you are responsible for your future and your retirement...and it never should be any other way...
Allow me to ask the question a different way...at what point in your life DO you become responsible for your life, as opposed to thinking it is always someone else's responsibility to do so...
Unless you make a great salary people simply do not have the disposable income to fund a 401K properly! If you are making $14 bucks an hour in a factory how in the hell are you going to have enough money to throw into a 401K? Seriously? This is not rocket science!!!! This is common sense! I'm talking about average people not six figure lawyers!!!
But those who put their money into REAL stocks, had them go down in 2000 and then come back over time to go even higher until 2008...all that means is that pure "buy and hold" may not work, but buying the right stocks can be...
What is the person to do if there company switches 401K providers and you are down 20% or so in that fund? You folks talk about all the benefits of a 401K but my employer switched financial institutions 3 times and of those 3 times I was down $7K when we switched. I was pretty mad because the market was coming back.
" After 4 years 11 months I had $81,000 in my 401K."...rocky, that is amazing...you prove my point...5 years and $81K is a lot of money...
Do you choose to read what you want to? :confuse: I said I had a UNION NEGOTIATED 401K PLAN WHERE MY EMPLOYER MATCHED US DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR UP TO 10%.....So If I made $1500 at 10% they took out $150 and my company matched me $150 dollars which means I was contributing $300 dollars towards my retirement for those 2 weeks! I do not know any other person who has a dollar for dollar 10% 401K. As I said most 401K plans in a non union shop or company typically match 3% if you put in 6% but many match nothing.
Maybe there are no blue collar millionaires, but defined benefit pensions are pretty much gone, and GM and other like prove why...they simply cannot pay into a retirement those kind of amounts anymore, maybe they never really could, unless they borrowed money for pension fund contributions...
The White Collar Suits killed them off! It is more money in there pocket not to mention it helps drive up the stock market for the 1%
rocky, like it or not, you are responsible for your future and your retirement...and it never should be any other way...
That is where you and I differ! I do not have the tools or education to play the stock market. Neither does 99% of the people in this country no matter how smart they think they are. Investing in the stock market should be left to the professionals because if you think you are a day trader type I've seen them lose there friggen [non-permissible content removed]!!! Funny how losing six figures in the market will sober up someone who is arrogant! Funny how that is all they talked about was how brilliant they were to not bringing that topic up! I'm sure you have a "fool proof" system too, right? Gimmie #32 on the wheel.... I'm feeling lucky tonight! :P
Allow me to ask the question a different way...at what point in your life DO you become responsible for your life, as opposed to thinking it is always someone else's responsibility to do so...
I am responsible for my life but unlike you I feel we are in this battle together. It is us vs. them. the 99% vs. the 1% and yes it is class warfare!!! The 1% have hijacked and stolen my democracy. They buy of politicians, attorney's, judges, and anyone else that posses a threat to there way of life! That is why I am strongly opposed to capitalism. It has destroyed our country. Look at it! We live in a world where you have politicians calling corporations people!!!! Do I really need to say anymore??? :sick:
-Rocky
I started drawing my pension along with SS. If I had retired in my late 50s it would have been a much reduced rate. No where near $3k after 37 years as a Teamster. I got NO HC or COL. Not sure how old your Dad was at retirement, but sounds better than our Teamster plan. We don't have a reduction for SS that I know of.
-Rocky
P.S. When my dad hits social security age his pension is reduced and social security makes up the difference.
Pensions are a scam, too! Promises that in most cases cannot be met. When you lose a pension all the way, you'd wish you had a 401K. More chance of competency on your own part than some company.
Yet somehow many (most?) of them can afford smoking, drinking, oodles of children, flat-screen TVs, multiple cars, boats, vacations, RVs, etc.... I call it poor choices.
The reason I have money is that while my irresponsible HS friends were having all of the things listed above, I was sober, busting my [non-permissible content removed] in college while working two jobs, and driving my first car (bought used) for 18 years.
Better choices.
-Rocky
-Rocky
...perhaps because you're in Michigan and your family and friends are mostly from the unionized auto industry? Few people in other parts of the country in that situation, unless they're government workers.
We didn't start out that way. When we got married in 1996, she was in school (not working much), I was barely earning $25k a year, but I still contributed enough to my 401k to get the max company match. I enrolled as soon as I was eligible.
I wish we all had guaranteed pensions where the risk was on someone else. I agree that's great when it works. But it's not a guarantee to a comfy retirement. My FIL lost 1/2 his pension through PGBC when his mill went belly up. My grandfather retired in 1979 from the Gary steel mills. His pension was $900 a month with no COLA. By 1990, that wasn't enough to live on. Everyone needs some type of savings whether they have a pension or not.
Start saving consistently a little bit every month while in your 20's, it will turn into something.
hat is why so many in my generation says we will work until we drop dead!
Unfortunately that's they way it's always been for many. Even during the peak of pensions.
On the flip side, due to my wife's job, we've moved so often I've had to seek new employment with every move. I've never been anywhere long enough to qualify for a pension (if it were available) I've rolled my 401k over with every move and it's mine to make the best of.
-Rocky
It wasn't just George, and it isn't just Obama. It's all of them - crooks on both sides.
Better choices.
You preach and I will give the Amens....
I did the same thing when I was young but $25K went a hell of a lot further in 1996 than it does today!
I wish we all had guaranteed pensions where the risk was on someone else. I agree that's great when it works. But it's not a guarantee to a comfy retirement. My FIL lost 1/2 his pension through PGBC when his mill went belly up. My grandfather retired in 1979 from the Gary steel mills. His pension was $900 a month with no COLA. By 1990, that wasn't enough to live on. Everyone needs some type of savings whether they have a pension or not.
What is most amazing is every other 1st would nation still gives employees pension plans but some how we can't afford to do it here? The problem is employers take huge risks like buying failed companies and try to turn the ship around and turn a profit but if they fail the working stiff here in the states has to pay the price. He had nothing to do with the CEO running the ship (company) into the iceberg yet he has to take the pay and benefit cut! That is why my friend I disagree with marsha7....Take for example GM purchased Saab, they never turned a profit on that brand yet guess who took pay cuts for managements failure? You guessed it the workers who had nothing to do with that decision.
GM's former management started the Saturn brand and while it did well at first they neglected it for years and it wasn't competitive and it started losing money. GM purchased and invested in many foreign car companies and lost money. Opel has never turned a profit to the best of my knowledge. That is why dieselone, I believe in strong regulation and caps on CEO pay in this country.
Start saving consistently a little bit every month while in your 20's, it will turn into something.
I agree but as we both know your average 20 something year old is buried in debt with student loans.
Unfortunately that's they way it's always been for many. Even during the peak of pensions.
I guess I'm immune to that reality. Most everyone I knew had some sort of a pension and was able to retire after 30 or 40 years. I know a century ago it wasn't that way but instead of progressing forward we have taken a turn backwards in my opinion!!!
On the flip side, due to my wife's job, we've moved so often I've had to seek new employment with every move. I've never been anywhere long enough to qualify for a pension (if it were available) I've rolled my 401k over with every move and it's mine to make the best of.
Yep, unfortunately that is the new reality we live in.....You can not work some place hardly anymore for 30 or 40 years and retire. I do agree that is the flexibility of a 401K plan. I personally would like to see our nation come up with some sort of a national pension plan like the Norwegians are doing. Of course they are subsidizing it with oil revenue.
-Rocky
Hopefully the UAW and other Labor Unions will make a come back and people will wise up and realize it's going to take a strong middle class to rebuild this nation.
-Rocky
And that is the beauty of a 401k vs a defined pension. A company may offer a pension and lay you off after 4.5 years and You get ZERO. With a 401K you say see you bye and transfer it to your next job. I had no problem rolling my 401k over to an IRA when I retired. It currently worth 25% more than when I retired in 2006. It took a 50% hit in 2008 and has recovered to the peak of 2007. For the record it is now in Fidelity. It was in a Telephone fund prior. I had complete control. I could have put it all in a secure MM account. I picked the funds based on past performance and they are doing fine. I also bought some Ford when it hit bottom and that has been more than fine. You have complete control of your money in a 401K.
Rocky, you need to face reality. The UAW is dead. They just have not buried them. I would bet there are fewer UAW members today than last week, or last year, or 6 years ago.
I was doing some calculating. On my 1965 pay stub they took out 12% for savings in the AT&T stock plan(no matching). 7% was taken out for medical. 12% for IRS & 3.5% for SS. That left me for 2 weeks $127 to live on. I had been working for Bell 5 years at the time. In 2012 dollars that is about $459 per week. If that is what I was making today you would consider me poverty level. I would not be paying 12% income tax as I did back then. And to top it all off I was putting my wife through college and she did not work. By the way at the time AT&T was the largest company in the world. I did not have a TV and chopped wood to heat. It was not the cushy life the UAW workers had back them with a winter home in Florida. But I got by and kept plugging along. Trying to make it through the messes the Democrats kept making. And now I am doing fine. No substitute for hard work and perserverance.
True, but I had student loans to pay and a wife that was a full time college student. That same job pays roughly $35-40k today. We certainly were scrimping to get by.
What is most amazing is every other 1st would nation still gives employees pension plans but some how we can't afford to do it here?
And many of those systems are under pressure too.
guess I'm immune to that reality. Most everyone I knew had some sort of a pension and was able to retire after 30 or 40 years. I know a century ago it wasn't that way but instead of progressing forward we have taken a turn backwards in my opinion!!!
What you've experience with the auto industry I saw first hand 20 years earlier with the steel mills back in the 80's. Huge layoffs, bankruptcies, consolidation etc. Workers made great money with all the o/t they wanted. Unfortunately many didn't save any of it. My FIL was able to retire with his reduced pension because he never bought new cars or upgraded his house, plus he put his wife through college while he was still making good money. He actually amassed a large 401k nest egg by putting the max in it every year from 1986 to 1999 even though he didn't receive any match.
IIRC, even at the peak of pension coverage, it never exceeded 50% of the total work force.
I personally would like to see our nation come up with some sort of a national pension plan like the Norwegians are doing. Of course they are subsidizing it with oil revenue.
We do have a national plan, it's called Social Security;) The government has done a great job managing it too;)
I agree but as we both know your average 20 something year old is buried in debt with student loans.
As of 2010, the average debt for a 4 year degree was 25k, the average starting pay was $47k. Certainly manageable if you're gainfully employed. Considering the average income of a HS graduate is $26k and unemployment is 20% vs 9% for recent college grads. That's a trade off and risk worth taking.
But yeah, college expenses are out of control at many universities.
ep, unfortunately that is the new reality we live in.....You can not work some place hardly anymore for 30 or 40 years and retire.
That's not necessarily bad. Few of my college friends work for the company they initially hired with out of college. But most have been better off by obtaining better positions or going to work for companies that were better to work for.
I've never had a desire to work at same place for 20-40 years and I certainly wouldn't want to feel stuck at some crap hole over a pension. My wife is one of the few that probably will retire with her only employer as she's 40 and has 23 years in. No pension, but so far she's benefited from a generous 401k and profit sharing plan.
GM's former management started the Saturn brand and while it did well at first they neglected it for years and it wasn't competitive and it started losing money.
Thank GM's toxic management culture for that debacle.
True enough- if you are financially inept.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I'll agree with you that Clinton is looking pretty d@mn good compared to our friend Barrack. However Bill had the advantage of the internet revolution and a booming economy. But by today's standards he was moderate, and I'd take him in a heartbeat over BO.
George had an awful lot of issues, but I don't see the economy as all his fault. But he wasn't very bright, he got way too adventurous with the wars, and he spent too much.
BO is spending so much more than Bush that he's even worse. But he did get Osama and he isn't really to blame for most of the current economic downturn. But he seems to think he can spend his way to prosperity while spreading the wealth to the lazy. We all know how well that is going to work. :surprise:
Thank GM's toxic management culture for that debacle.
Another reason Saturn failed was that the UAW was all upset over different work rules at Saturn. They didn't like the fact that GM wanted to run Saturn more like a "foreign brand". And as I recall, part of one union agreement was to re-institute those work rules at Saturn. Typical union thuggery holding GM management over a barrel. So when you look at the failure of Saturn, also make sure to blame the union. So don't complain about how bad things are at GM and somehow it's all the management. Because the union was quite complicit in the choices GM management had to make. And the gravy train doesn't run forever, or for free....
Naaaah. That was Bush's fault. Everything set up to find him came from the Bush era.
>and he isn't really to blame for most of the current economic downturn.
Naaaah. The downturn came from the Democrats in congress insisting on buddying up to Fannie and Freddy to give mortgages away from OPM and buddying up to Wall Street all the while whining about them--just as BO is doing.
When Bush tried to slow the financial waste slide in Fannie and Freddy forcing banks to give money away, he was rebuked by such folks as Frank and Waters (true FORs) for trying to hurt little people to whom they wanted to give money to buy votes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm willing to bet the only way that is possible is if they transferred out of stock based funds and into a cash equivalent fund.
I just looked over all of the fund choices in my 401k. Only one has a negative return over the past 5 years and that's an international fund. Every other fund choice has a positive return over the past 1 yr, 3yr, 5 yr, and 10yr durations. So the only way to still have a negative return from the financial crash is if you rolled everything out of stock funds and into stable asset (cash equivalent) when the market was at it's lowest point.
If you did what most people did, left it alone, and kept contributing, your account is up substantially. I just looked at our retirement balances going back to pre crash our account balances are up 68% from mid 2008. Most it went down was 25% and now it's up roughly 110% from the low. Granted those number include contributions which we increased after the crash.
That was my experience. A guy I worked with had about the same amount in his 401K as I did. He panicked in early 2008 and converted all his to cash. We both were heavy into FLPSX. I did not get out of any of the funds. I took what cash was in my account and bought Ford when it was down at $1.76. Now I am within a couple grand of the 2007 peak. And he is down about 40% from me.
Now those that were heavy into dot.com stocks when the market tanked in 2000 are not likely to ever come back to the 1999 peaks. So many of those companies are now history and people's money went away with the smart ones. The sunny states are filled with dot.com millionaires that saw the bubble for what it was. My wife was not so lucky with her Paine Webber IRA. They churned her investment from $348k down to $106k when they went broke in 2000. She made the mistake of trusting a broker with her money. Money in a 401K is yours and your responsibility. If you are not comfortable with investing put it in a low risk 5 star mutual fund. Funds like FGMNX have consistently returned 6%+ with no hits even in 2008.
But the republicans ran congress during some of the time this was happening too. I think both parties need to take the rap on this economic mess and what led to it. But to be fair, sometimes the whims of the business cycle impact as well and its not a partisan thing. Honestly, over time I've come to believe there is another factor at play as well, the federal reserve. Think about it, Volcker policies brought on huge inflation in the 80's, Greenspan's easy money in the 90's and 00's led to the bubble bursting in 07/08 and now Bernanke has this questionable artifical low interest rate policy in effect. We're probably mostly middle aged, whether retired or working. But you know who's getting screwed over the most - the young adults. No pensions, 401K's in an environment of artfiicially low returns, extensions to retirement and medicare age while business is frequently kicking people out well before that age. Frankly, I don't see either party and their respective special interests fixing it, its going to take new political parties and personnel (and special interest money from both sides will fight that tooth and nail).
I also agree on your take concerning the various parties responsible for the economic mess we are in. I just get tired of hearing Obama and company blame everything on Bush. The Unions and Union diehards are also big on blaming everyone but themselves for the messes. There is plenty of blame to go around. I read an analysis by economists. They took a vote and Alan Greenspan won first place in the blame for the economic mess.
And none of them are broken down by the side of the road either.
Our last trip to Nashville a few months back I found most roadside pieces were foreign makes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thought this was interesting:
"Alan Mulally is well worth his fat compensation package. So much so that criticism of his paydays has been muted this year.
Not only did he save the Ford family from losing their company after a century of control, he saved tens of thousands of UAW members from losing their jobs, and tens of thousands of parts suppliers from losing theirs." (windsorstar.com)
Not to mention my 600% increase in stock value. I am a big Mulally fan. If he were to go I would sell my Ford stock in a heartbeat.
"Hey, ladies! Check out my new Corvette! Saved up and paid cash for it this morning!" "Hee hee hee hee! Look at the funny old man in the 'Vette, girls! Isn't he cute!" "Dang! Where's my Viagra?"
"He was a good man! WE'RE GOING TO VEGAS, GIRLS! Where's Armando the pool boy?"
That's a balancing act. I want to enjoy it now, but I'd' rather not be eating dog food when I'm 80+ either. Life would be much simpler if we knew what our expiration date is;)
So I try to do what I want with out spending to much. One area I've been scrimping on is cars. I think I'm going to just keep the Expedition until it dies.
Seeing as the future being made by our race to the bottom certainly isn't going to be as good as today, I have no qualms with living a little, while I can.
With the luck you've had with the Expy, you could be shopping soon
So true. I'm crossing my fingers, it's about to turn 100k and currently is running great and overall is holding up okay (other than a few paint and trim issues). I'd like to at least get a year or two more out of it. But being what it is, that can change today;)
I am sure it will be fine. I sometimes get a new car itch, but not having a car payment usually stops that - probably the same for you too.
That's no lie. Seriously, I've thought about getting rid prior to having to change plugs again. What a fiasco that is.
I sometimes get a new car itch, but not having a car payment usually stops that - probably the same for you too.
That along with how much new full size SUVs and cost. I just can't justify $40-50k+. I'll likely buy another used model when the time comes.
So you'll still likely be replacing it with another UAW-made vehicle
Most likely. Sequoias are awfully pricey used or new, I'd be open to a Tundra, but I do prefer the D3 trucks even if they aren't as reliable overall.
Maybe one of those fuel efficient new F-series could work ...but I don't know how much they can tow.
It could work, but you can't get the standard v6 in a Supercrew. Though even in an extended cab it really doesn't have enough towing capacity for me (around 6k lbs IIRC). I've driven an Ecoboost Supercrew and it's indeed impressive. But am still a bit gun shy on wanting a direct injected, twin turbo v6 from Ford. If problems arise I don't want to think how much that could cost to keep running.