rocky: " That is why I am strongly opposed to capitalism"...well, I guess our discussion is over because this says it all...if you want Communism, why don't you just go to one of the many Commie countries that are out there, instead of trying to ruin the one system that had probably given welath to more folks in the last 100 years than any other system out there???
tlong posted it well...you want to know where are they going to get the money to put into the 401K...try giving up cigarettes (a carton at, what, $30/week is already $1500/year, and it is the poor that smoke the most...you know, the ones who can't put food on the table but find the money for cigarettes) beer, $600 iPhones with unlimited data plans, big screen TVs to watch something as useless as football & baseball and smoke their cigarettes and drink all that beer, and all the crap they buy from Home Shopping network...
rocky, they CAN put away the $$$, they just have to have a long range view that goes out further than tomorrow's lottery ticket drawing...and, it appears that you may be one of the worst offenders, because the positions you advocate obviously seem to think that they have a right to buy all that crap but that SOMEONE ELSE (always someone other than them) is responsible for their retirement...
It doesn't take a lot of brains to put money away, and it doesn't take a lot of money, either...but it takes the discipline to NOT BUY the crap and put the money away for the future...and that, as always, comes down to personal responsibility, something you will fight tooth and nail that you shouldn;t have...always up to someone else to take money out of their pocket for your future...heaven forbid you might take that responsibility...
I sure hope you aren't teaching any of that Commie crap to your kids, otherwise we will just have more parasites in the system later on...
gagrice: how do you have a 1965 paycheck that isn't even faded over time???...and who keeps check stubs over 40 years???...even if the IRS thought you were guilty of fraud, they wouldn't go back 45 years...
gagrice: how do you have a 1965 paycheck that isn't even faded over time???...and who keeps check stubs over 40 years???...even if the IRS thought you were guilty of fraud, they wouldn't go back 45 years.
My ex-wife who is now my current wife still had it in a bunch of papers she saved over the years. That was the second year of our first marriage. I framed it as a reminder of when times were not quite so good financially. I would bet a comparable UAW check from that period would be a lot more. You are right about saving. We got by not wasting money on anything frivolous. I don't recall ever eating out. Even on vacation. We would camp out and fix our meals. Rocky was raised in the cushy years when money was loose for the auto industry. I think he is starting to see the new reality.
I talked to a guy today, back on the job market. His biotech job went away. Told me as a computer programmer in San Diego the most he has ever made is $22 per hour. He has all that Microsoft and Cisco certifications. He will probably be lucky to get $12 to $14 per hour. Even the biotech industry is struggling. Things are not well here in CA and getting worse. The reality is most of the people struggling are Democrats. And they are clueless as to what has caused the depression. You try to explain and they blame it on the 1%. Cannot accept that the elitist in their party have bankrupted CA and soon the whole country. Some of the really slow ones still believe in Obama. The rich are not going to cough up the money to fix the mess. And they don't have enough if they had a mind to. And the middle class, you and I cannot afford to keep carrying the poor.
Rocky, you need to face reality. The UAW is dead. They just have not buried them. I would bet there are fewer UAW members today than last week, or last year
The industry has added 200,000 jobs many of those are UAW jobs!!!! With all the in sourcing going on in the American Automobile Industry (Big 3) GM/Ford/Chrysler is still hiring at some plants and will continue to do so as new models are going to be built here instead of Canada or Mexico.
I was doing some calculating. On my 1965 pay stub they took out 12% for savings in the AT&T stock plan(no matching). 7% was taken out for medical. 12% for IRS & 3.5% for SS. That left me for 2 weeks $127 to live on. I had been working for Bell 5 years at the time. In 2012 dollars that is about $459 per week. If that is what I was making today you would consider me poverty level. I would not be paying 12% income tax as I did back then. And to top it all off I was putting my wife through college and she did not work. By the way at the time AT&T was the largest company in the world. I did not have a TV and chopped wood to heat. It was not the cushy life the UAW workers had back them with a winter home in Florida. But I got by and kept plugging along. Trying to make it through the messes the Democrats kept making. And now I am doing fine. No substitute for hard work and perserverance. -gagrice
HaHaHaHa!!! You're being funny right? I think that was a lot more than $459 a week in today's dollars. I do not buy that!!! Nice Try!!!! :P I really do enjoy debunking your myths almost as much as Marsha7's
$127.06 in 1965 had the same buying power as $919.03 in 2012. Annual inflation over this period was 4.30%.
So if you take out the stock his real income would be around $151.46 in 1965 had the same buying power as $1,095.52 in 2012.
Annual inflation over this period was 4.30%.
"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."
As I said before if you have a high income it is possible but if you are a blue collar working stiff you will work until you drop dead!!! That is the reality! Real wages are not keeping up with the COL, as I proved Gagrice on!!! You guys can paint the past however you want but the truth is in black and white!!!
So it is the unions fault that the brand was never competitive from the get go? That the Japanese were manipulating there currency around 40%? Every import sold here due to the exchange rate would get Honyota $2-14K in extra profit per unit! Gimmie a break, tlong! I'm not your ordinary jerk! What killed our automobile industry was not the union but our governments free trade policies, currency manipulation, and inept management like Roger Smith who is probably burning with Pol Pot! As we've seen German autoworkers with militant unions that make the UAW look like [non-permissible content removed] cats and have always made more than double and somehow did quite fine! Hmmmm, wonder why?
Lemko, a trailer park would be a luxury for many let alone a car that ran without needing a quart of transmission fluid every fill up!!! My generation according to gagrice is "The Me" generation because we don't want to work for peanuts!
I would take Gagrice's 1965 paycheck right now in today's dollars! I would have it whipped!!!! I would of ate steak 5 days a week and Lobster and Shrimp on weekends but if you ask him he had it so awful!!!! He was paid better than I was making at the bomb factory in Texas, working OT
Sounds to me like one of those stories our parents told us about walking to school up hill both ways in 2 feet of snow!!! :P
rocky: " That is why I am strongly opposed to capitalism"...well, I guess our discussion is over because this says it all...if you want Communism, why don't you just go to one of the many Commie countries that are out there, instead of trying to ruin the one system that had probably given welath to more folks in the last 100 years than any other system out there???
That does not make me a communist! I believe in Welfare Capitalism or as dumb Americans call it Socialism. I do believe the government should have oversight and regulation on business!!! I know your right winger buddies can't define socialism or communism so you not knowing what it means is not surprising to say the least!!!
rocky, they CAN put away the $$$, they just have to have a long range view that goes out further than tomorrow's lottery ticket drawing...and, it appears that you may be one of the worst offenders, because the positions you advocate obviously seem to think that they have a right to buy all that crap but that SOMEONE ELSE (always someone other than them) is responsible for their retirement...
How in the hell does Joe Six Pack put away for retirement when he is wondering if he is going to be able to buy diapers for his kids? I know you live in an alternative universe being a well paid attorney and you have forgotten your so called blue collar roots but reality is real wages due to the value of the dollar has declined. You can go to most any place around this country and white and blue collar workers are being paid what they were back 15 or 20 years ago. I know attorney fee's have went up over that time frame so you might think it was the same for everyone. A attorney that made $100 bucks an hour in 1985 now makes $300 bucks an hour today!
I sure hope you aren't teaching any of that Commie crap to your kids, otherwise we will just have more parasites in the system later on...
When they are old enough I'm going to teach them to be trade unionist!!!
...perhaps because you're in Michigan and your family and friends are mostly from the unionized auto industry? Few people in other parts of the country in that situation, unless they're government workers.
That's probably the biggest factor for Rocky. Another factor though, that probably weighs in for the rest of us, is that the 401k wasn't even created until 1978, and didn't start becoming popular until the 1980's. So most people who are heavily dependent on 401k's simply haven't reached retirement age yet.
Most of the people I know who are retired are on a pension as well, but I'm also in the DC suburbs, so many of them are government workers. Outside of the gov't, my grandfather is a retired railroad worker, and gets a pension. But, like most other industries, I doubt the railroad pensions are as sweet today, if they even exist. I also have two uncles who worked for A&P Grocers (I think it's Superfresh now), and they get pensions...but I think they were union, as well.
In my line of work, our contract goes up for renewal every five years, and the incumbent almost always loses the contract. New company comes in and picks everybody up (unless there's someone they were hoping to get rid of, and even that's a rare case), and we have to start with a new 401k plan. The old 401k's either get rolled over, converted to an IRA, or just left where they are, depending on the circumstances. One of my former co-workers would always cash out her 401k whenever we started with a new employer, pay the taxes and penalties, and then blow the rest. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people do that. They look at the balance after 5 years, see that it's not so great and isn't going to help their retirement any, so they just cash it out, blow it, and enjoy it now. They don't really give it time to compound.
I really do enjoy debunking your myths almost as much as Marsha7's So if you take out the stock his real income would be around $151.46 in 1965 had the same buying power as $1,095.52 in 2012.
What have you debunked?? Even adding my savings and adjusting to today's dollars it is $13.69 per hour after 5 years on the job. And you say you could not live on $14 per hour. More than many people are living today. So how was it so much better during the 1960s? I also paid CWA union dues each month out of my take home pay. Plus my wife's college tuition and books at San Diego State. Her folks were poorer than me. We lived in a converted garage that you would consider unlivable by your hifalutin UAW standards. See how well you debunk that.
Shoot, I look at today's kids and see them facing the struggles my great-grandparents had. As a country, the USA is regressing. It used to be that the next generation was to do better than their parents. Well, I see them doing worse, much worse than their parents and even grandparents.
Back in the day, my Dad could work in a factory yet own a modest home, raise a small family, take us on a modest but nice vacation every summer, and even buy a new Ford every couple of years. Though we lived in a modest duplex in a working-class neighborhood, I don't ever remember being cold or hungry. Mom kept the house so nice, I thought we were rather well-to-do.
Today's kids have college degrees and it is unlikely they'll ever own a home short of winning the lottery. Heck, they are saddled with a mortgage-sized debt before they even get out the gate. And for what - to get a job as a cashier at a fast-food restaurant despite all those years of study and a massive student loan debt? A lot of kids are considering suicide - something that would've been unthinkable of a recent college grad a generation ago. It used to be if a kid had a college degree, the world was his oyster. Today, he faces of bleak future with an insurmountable debt and a worthless degree that couldn't even get him a decent blue-collar job. Forget about raising a family or anything else tha goes with it. What will the kids of these kids end up like? Will they become like the street kids of Rio de Janiero?
As we've seen German autoworkers with militant unions that make the UAW look like [non-permissible content removed] cats and have always made more than double and somehow did quite fine! Hmmmm, wonder why?
Do you really think they would let a Norwegian into their little close knit society? And the link you posted said the Union and management worked closely together to make the finest cars in the World. Unlike thugs like Reuther that wanted to squeeze every penny possible out of the automakers. That does not make for a good working relationship. Going on strike when GM was bleeding red ink in 1998. No way you can compare the UAW and German Unions. It is likely you would be allowed to work the same jobs the foreign slaves are getting in Germany. A little research will show that they have a lower manufacturing pay than the US automakers. They take home an average $2336USD per month. You don't want to be a Fire Fighter in Germany. They only take home $1895 per month. That would be $437 per week. Last I checked having a beer out with the boys is $10. And the cost of that Mercedes you would like to be building way out of your wage range.
Shoot, I look at today's kids and see them facing the struggles my great-grandparents had. As a country, the USA is regressing. It used to be that the next generation was to do better than their parents. Well, I see them doing worse, much worse than their parents and even grandparents.
So you thought the growth and use of our planet's resources would be never ending? If the Eco nuts like Rocky get their way you will be living in a cave as a hunter gatherer. Only you cannot kill another living thing to eat. So hopefully you can find some roots to chew on. The peak was probably reached when Peak Oil was reached. HMMMM Of course we sped up the process by bringing China into the First World buying all those iGoodies they send US. Now they are buying more cars, using more fuel, speeding the sled faster down the mountain. My kids do not have it as good as I had it in 2005 when the peak was reached. It is all down hill from here. Hangon :sick:
Just a side note. That $24 taken out every two weeks for AT&T stock. My wife got that stock when we divorced. She still has it and it has split and divided into several different companies. And it is all in our stock portfolio. She was brought up to save everything. You may need it someday. Something today's youth need to learn.
There's a knack to knowing what to save and what to toss.
My in laws saved everything (depression era raised). When we moved them out of their house into the condo at the retirement community, we had to trash 80% of what they had been storing, and just moving it from house to house.
Used (but cleaned, luckily :confuse: ) jello containers and Styrofoam cups from McDonald's. Used pie tins. Every (or at least is seemed like every) birthday, Christmas, and anniversary card from 50 years of marriage. Clothes that had never been worn in 20 years, but were still "good".
Then, had to do it again when we moved them from the condo into an assisted living place.
And with all that, my FIL still couldn't find the title to his car when we got 'round to selling it.
gagrice: "Rocky was raised in the cushy years when money was loose for the auto industry. I think he is starting to see the new reality."...that is correct...there was a time when the UAW got a raise simply by thinking of a strike...not any more...they used to just raise the car price to offset the UAW raise...not so much now...
We are not falling backwards, we just have to shift priorities...gold plated pensions with free blue cross with no copays...nice work if you can get it, and they can't get it anymore...there is NOTHING wrong with paying for part of your own health insurance, putting away your own money for retirement, and paying copays (and deductibles) for seeing a doctor...this is just part of personal responsibility, something the UAW (and its disciples) still, to this day, has no conception of whatsoever...most of the rest of the working world has paid extra to insure their familiies, paid deductibles for each family member (often no more than 3), and paid copys for each...the only factor insulated from reality was the UAW factor, who literally received everything for free...
Shifting priorities means fewer cigarettes, less beer, and drop the gold plated $300/month cable package with NFL Unlimited and pay per view...also close the QVC and Home Shopping Network credit cards and buy less junk...if you stop and look at what they spend on that stuff, they could probably put away 1000s yearly into a retirement, but they won't...not "can't"...they won't...the money is there, but they spend it on bulls**t that does nothing for them except mindless entertainment...
No, rocky, they HAVE the money, they just choose to spend it foolishly, and then wonder where the money went at retirement time...and remember, you can't legislate away STUPID, and that is what they are...
srs: "Clothes that had never been worn in 20 years, but were still "good...And with all that, my FIL still couldn't find the title to his car when we got 'round to selling it."
That is because a birthday card from 1978 is important, but something as mundane as a car title...hey, who needs a car title???... :shades:
Germany has much better labor relations than the US, and foresight that can somehow make desirable products with expensive labor. Funny how that works.
Those numbers should be adjusted to 2012 dollar to euro values, and also mention that nobody in Germany goes broke from student loans or medical debt.
So if you take out the stock his real income would be around $151.46 in 1965 had the same buying power as $1,095.52 in 2012.
I debunked your $459 a week quote!!!! Your $151.46 1965 salary (if you take out the $24 an change for stock) would be like earning $1,095.52 a week today!
$199.88 (Your Gross) in 1965 $199.88 in 1965 had the same buying power as $1,445.75 (Your Gross in today's dollars) in 2012. Annual inflation over this period was 4.30%.
$1,445.75/ 40 hours = $36.14 per hour in today's dollars!!! :surprise: x 52 weeks that is $75,179 in today's dollars!!! Great Scott!!!
So do not cry poverty again to us!!! That was one hell of a UNION JOB!!!! You have been pampered by the union your whole life yet you despise them!!! I guess we found out who "The Me" generation is!!! :P Do you really think a guy could work a job like that today and afford to send his wife to school and own a home!!! NOT!!!!
Gagrice is a great guy but I think he likes make things a lot worse that they were back in the old days!!! You can not support a family on one persons wages like you could back then!
Do you really think they would let a Norwegian into their little close knit society? And the link you posted said the Union and management worked closely together to make the finest cars in the World.
You are right! Socialist do not fight the union every step of the way! They grew up accepting unions. In fact the boss comes around and scoops beer into there mug while they are working! The company is not militant. My great uncle who passed last year told me it was like a dream working over there. He said the management worked with the union instead of fighting them. So there is a big difference in attitude. Funny you bring up Reuther? Did you know he and Gov. George Romney were friends? Reuther is the best union boss probably of all time. George Romney did not blame the UAW for AMC going belly up he blamed management. Well that is what he said a year before he died at a rambler group in 1995.
Unlike thugs like Reuther that wanted to squeeze every penny possible out of the automakers. That does not make for a good working relationship. Going on strike when GM was bleeding red ink in 1998. No way you can compare the UAW and German Unions. It is likely you would be allowed to work the same jobs the foreign slaves are getting in Germany. A little research will show that they have a lower manufacturing pay than the US automakers. They take home an average $2336USD per month. You don't want to be a Fire Fighter in Germany. They only take home $1895 per month. That would be $437 per week. Last I checked having a beer out with the boys is $10. And the cost of that Mercedes you would like to be building way out of your wage range.
Your theory of standard of living has been debunked by Fintail and myself several times yet you keep going there!!! WHY? :confuse:
Just a side note. That $24 taken out every two weeks for AT&T stock. My wife got that stock when we divorced. She still has it and it has split and divided into several different companies. And it is all in our stock portfolio. She was brought up to save everything. You may need it someday. Something today's youth need to learn.
If you were so darn poor how in the heck could you afford $48 dollars a month in stock? Stop while you are ahead, gagrice!!! :P Just admit you have had good UNION jobs
$199.88 (Your Gross) in 1965 $199.88 in 1965 had the same buying power as $1,445.75 (Your Gross in today's dollars) in 2012. Annual inflation over this period was 4.30%.
Rocky, are you paying attention??? Look back at that pay stub. It was for TWO WEEKS. That was Less than $100 per week. And did you see what percentage was taken out for medical coverage? Did you notice how much was taken out for Federal Taxes? Which proves working for a major company in 1965 with 5 years service paid less than it does today adjusted for inflation. By the way Verizon pays their technicians here in California with 5 years service about $35 per hour. Two and one half times more than I made in 1965 adjusted for inflation.
Germany has much better labor relations than the US, and foresight that can somehow make desirable products with expensive labor. Funny how that works.
Those numbers should be adjusted to 2012 dollar to euro values, and also mention that nobody in Germany goes broke from student loans or medical debt.
That is something, gagrice never factors in! He forgets to mention those key points! Everyone can go to college or trade school in Germany and everyone has health care coverage.
I assumed it was for one week! I did not know they did bi weekly pay back then. Even so $37,500 is a lot more than the median income today. Over half the people today make less than $27K
$99.50 in 1965 had the same buying power as $719.69 in 2012. Annual inflation over this period was 4.30%. or in today's dollars $37,423.89 Annual Salary
Okay, you were not as rich as I thought but you had it better than most! Both of my grandparents had to work to make ends meet in 1965 at GE
If you were so darn poor how in the heck could you afford $48 dollars a month in stock?
That was our savings. We NEVER ate out as it was only for rich people to eat out. Too expensive. After nine years with Bell do you know how much pension I get???? $ZERO$, you had to work 15 years to be vested. And the guy I worked with that just retired last year at 76 years of age, had 16 years with AT&T and gets a whopping $207 a month since he turned 65. No early retirement back then. You definitely are not up on the Average American from the 60s and 70s. The UAW smoke was too thick in your area to see anyone else in the country. So how much did your UAW family members make per week in 1965? Let's compare standards of living.
Okay, you were not as rich as I thought but you had it better than most! Both of my grandparents had to work to make ends meet in 1965 at GE
Dunno how they were doing in 1965, but my Granddad retired from the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1974, after 35 years of service. He was making $6.00 per hour when he retired, which would come out to $27.58 per hour today, or about $57,366 per year. Plus overtime. I have no idea how much overtime he got, over the years. I know it was a lot during WWII, but don't know about the later years.
That's really not an extravagant salary, but he managed to raise three sons, buy a decent house in nice community (well, back in 1964...it's getting pretty ghetto today). Paid cash for every car they ever bought, although they never really went extravagant...'57 Ford Fairlane 500, '61 Galaxie 500, '63 Monterrey, and then smaller cars after that like Tempests, a Dart, Granadas, a small LTD, and two Tauruses. Grandmom worked as well, but I'd imagine her work history wasn't quite as long, what with taking the time off to have kids and such.
You definitely are not up on the Average American from the 60s and 70s.
I recall reading somewhere, that even when pensions were in their prime, only something like 45% of jobs actually offered them. And with such caveats as vesting and other outs for the employer, it's a safe bet that fewer than 45% of workers back then actually managed to get a pension.
I have several teamster friends in the skilled trades and depending on the job location and classification of the equipment etc. They get paid anywhere between $20-50/HR. The operators out Chicago really get paid well. The few machinists I know are in the $35/HR range.
Those numbers should be adjusted to 2012 dollar to euro values, and also mention that nobody in Germany goes broke from student loans or medical debt.
How many people sneak into Germany each year and get free medical care? Then how many of those people take jobs from German citizens? You are comparing apples to oranges. We will never have a closed society like Germany, Norway etc etc. Our borders are open sieves for all practical purposes.
That is the only chart I could find. Are you saying wages have inflated a great deal since 2005?
Okay, you were not as rich as I thought but you had it better than most! Both of my grandparents had to work to make ends meet in 1965 at GE
I thought you told me that was the best of times. I was not poor. I was far from wealthy and we lived in what you would consider a ghetto today. My wife did not work as she was taking a full load at college. You did notice they took out 7% for HC. Which was not an option. In fact I did not remember it being taken out as we never used the medical in the 9 years I worked at Pacific Telephone.
Fast Forward to now. If you have a job that pays $35 per hour without a college degree in CA you are a fat cat. The Median income in the USA is $49k per year. $35 per hour is $72k without any OT. My nephew working for Verizon is doing very well. He cannot buy a home as he just transferred to Bakersfield from Maryland. They hated it there and had to give up their upside down home. They don't plan to stay in Bakersfield so renting is the best option. There are a lot of college grads that would jump on a $20 per hour job here in San Diego. I told you about one I talked to yesterday. A BS in Computer programming. All the Certs. Most he has made since college is $22 per hour. The only people I know graduating and making big bucks are Registered Nurses. Big shortage here. One out of a hundred applicants get into nursing school here. They don't need no Union to make $50 per hour plus.
Historically, economies got through periods of wide wealth gaps between the classes, and they tend not to end pretty. The Republicans should probably hope they don't win congress and the presidency because I think America will quickly tire of the extreme right just like it did of the extreme left in the sixties. The Democrats went through a period of a lot of set backs after their extreme liberal actions during that era. Politicians can't seem to comprehend that America is basically a right central country - maybe all that special interest money and perks messes up their common sense.
Rocky Apple has passed up your favorite company Exxon to be the most valuable company on the planet. Why doesn't Obama nationalize it and bring those 500,000 factory jobs to the USA? According to my calculation the new CEO will have a dandy pay day when he cashes in his million+ shares of stock.
Apple (AAPL) stock continues to soar into the stratosphere, finally closing on Monday at $552.00 a share, which is an all-time record for the Cupertino, Calif.-based computer company. Monday's high now puts Apple's market cap over $514 billion, which now exceeds Exxon's market cap -- the No. 2 company, currently standing at $403 billion -- by more than $100 billion.
Dunno how they were doing in 1965, but my Granddad retired from the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1974, after 35 years of service. He was making $6.00 per hour when he retired, which would come out to $27.58 per hour today, or about $57,366 per year. Plus overtime. I have no idea how much overtime he got, over the years. I know it was a lot during WWII, but don't know about the later years.
I found a w-2 from the last year my grandpa worked in 1979 as a 43 year steel mill union employee. I remember him telling me that he was the highest hourly paid employee in the mill when he retired. It was $11/hr and according to his w-2 from 1979 he made $24k which would be about $80k today. I know he didn't work a ton over over time his last few years, but it would be $11/hr plus holiday pay etc.
That's comparable to what many of mill workers earn today. I have a few HS friends that work for US steel. They easily hit $100k considering the o/t they work. Both of them average 60 hours a week as crane operators and always seem to be on 12 hour shifts.
I recall reading somewhere, that even when pensions were in their prime, only something like 45% of jobs actually offered them.
I've read that too. This idea that fat paying factory jobs with great benefits were available to all that wanted them is ridiculous. Look at income levels and poverty rates from the 50's to early 60's and it's sobering. I'm sure it was great to be in Michigan back then, but Michigan doesn't equate to all 50 states.
My other grandpa was a disabled WWII vet and he couldn't work in a mill or factory. He often worked 2-3 jobs to support a wife and 4 kids and never owned a house. 100% VA disability wasn't enough to live on, so he stayed partially disabled and worked where ever he could to make ends meet.
A guy from California was telling me the problem with the state is there is pretty much no middle class left. You have people who are rich beyond the dreams of avarice and then you have everbody else who is circling the drain.
Your Grandpop seems a lot like my Dad in respect to his job and financial situation. My Dad now lives in NE PA in a nice but modest house he fixed-up really well. My Dad paid for his cars in cash too! I recall seeing him counting out stacks of 100s and 50s. We kids were blown away as we never saw that much cash! He'd tease us and say that cash was our new allowance! :P
I think almost every boy from my generation would've loved to do at least as well as his Dad or better. In some respects, I've done really well, but I never felt I had the financial wherewithal to raise a family like he did.
In Germany, you don't have to sneak in - if you can make up a bogus "refugee" claim, you can get into Europe without a hitch, and become one of the hordes of welfare recipients who refuse to assimilate. Calling Europe a closed society is wrong IMO - due to the guilting doled out by extreme leftists after the war which has become a terminal case of white mans guilt, the place is a bizarre experiment in a defective multicultural ideal that will more likeely than not result in a culture war. Apples to oranges indeed. Of course, they can afford it more as our arrogant military-industrial complex subsidizes their defense with your and my tax dollars. Again, nobody there is destroyed by certain debt disasters that are so common here.
I say purchasing power here vs there is different now, and I wouldn't be surprised if they have seen stronger real income gains too.
"You can not support a family on one persons wages like you could back then!"
For this I have some speculation...is it possible that home prices, and certainly car prices, rose far faster than the rate of inflation???...plus, back in the 50s and 60s (maybe the 70s) folks usually bought the house they could afford, whereas in the last 20-plus years, folks have been going out on a limb buying a house twice what they could really afford, and counted on appreciation (ah, inflation) to bring up the value of the house faster than other things so they could BORROW against the equity, which actually means going further into debt, and it was debt they could not service...hence, you need 2 incomes simply to keep up with a house payment (or 2 or 3) that they never should have incurred in the first place...so, you look and say that wages didn't rise fast enough...I say that they simply bought more home and more car (does everybody really need, or can afford, payments on a 40K-plus BMW or Benz?)...
Like the kid who gets a $10 weekly raise and now spends $20 more each week, he says that his wages aren't keeping up with inflation, when he is spending more than he needs to...
Plus, look at vehicles...a decked out Expedition or Yukon Denali costs well over $50,000...isn;t that a lot of money for a glorified staion wagon???...do they break the $60K mark yet???
rocky, it isn;t that wages have not kept up with inflation, it is that families have lost the common sense when they make their two biggest purchases, cars and homes...
Folks buy houses over $400K when they can only afford a $200K home...but they want to live in the nicer neighborhood...well, too bad, you can't afford it...so when Momma goes to work, you lament the poor wages and I am saying that they simply bought too much house...add in the $50K Expedition and the $50K BMW, and it isn;t wages that haven;t kept up, it is that they simply refuse to live within their means...bankers who used to want 20% down on a house, and 10-20% down on a car, for years only wanted no down payment on the house and $500 down on each car...car loans used to be 36 months, now going out to 72 months...it isn;t the wages that are the problem, it is the spending on things that they really simply cannot afford...
So, if you ARE middle class, but spend like the upper class, you will find yoruself deep in the hole...your trade-in rolls over the negative equity into the new loan, so you now have a $50K car with a $75K loan on it...the increased home equity was thought to be the solution until the real estate bubble popped...
It isn't wages rocky...it is people who simply must keep up with the Joneses at any cost, until they come to me for a Chapter 7...then it is REALLY over...
I had a client 2 years ago...bought a Florida condo for $100K...when the value went up (all artificial, if you ask me, but the bubble was growing) to $200K she refinanced and pulled out $100K in "equity"...this went on...she refinanced when it was $350K, pulled out all the "equity", and did it once more when it was appraised at, no joke, $500K...her mortgage payment was $4,000 a month...she was renting it for $1500 month as it was all she could get, and that was only 3 months out of the year...she was borrowing on her Visa Card, cash advances, $4K a month to make the mortgage payment...that lasted until Visa said "No More"...she argued with me for hours that she had "made the payment" for the last 12 months...I said no, YOU didn't make a payment at all, you just borrowed from one line of credit to pay another one, until Visa shut the spigot off...she finally understood that she was so far in over her head, but it took default to wake her up...
Did she have insufficient income???...not at all...she simply borrowed more money than she could afford to pay...she should have sat there and SOLD the condo for $500K and she would have made REAL MONEY, the same as the idiots who bought Pets.com for a dollar and rode it up to $100/share, and rode it down back to 10 cents a share...had they sold at $100 they would have made real money, despite that fact that the dotcom boom was no boom, but the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on the Americna public...the illusion was that the stocks were worth anything at all, when they had no assets, no sales, no equity and no money...
No rocky, it isn't that wages have not kept up...we simply wanted 5000 sq ft homes when we could really afford only a 2000 sq ft home, so instead of saying that wages didn't keep up, we just spent more than we ever could in the last 100 years...and cars are the same...we have bought cars that were NEVER in our budget, but with 8 year loans they seem affordable...until we trade them in after 4 years, find out we have no equity, and roll that balance into the enxt loan...so the next $40K car has a $60K loan, and you have the gall to say that wages don't keep up???...no...we simply bought more than we could ever pay, so it seems like we cannot keep up, but for those who lived within their means, that is less likely to happen...
Don't forget...all those UAW raises are why the vehicle price went up so high...you can't pay a floorsweeper $35/hour plus benefits and expect the vehicle price not to go up...
Your Grandpop seems a lot like my Dad in respect to his job and financial situation. My Dad now lives in NE PA in a nice but modest house he fixed-up really well. My Dad paid for his cars in cash too! I recall seeing him counting out stacks of 100s and 50s. We kids were blown away as we never saw that much cash! He'd tease us and say that cash was our new allowance
Must have been a generational thing. My grandpa (the one who worked in the mill) always had at least $500-$1,000 on him in the late 70's to 80's and he usually carried to wallets. He also paid cash for his cars too. At least when he was close to retirement and retired.
Only time I carry 4 figures on me is when I go to a Casino (which isn't that often). Other than that, I might have $100 on me, but I usually don't like to carry much more than that.
Don't forget...all those UAW raises are why the vehicle price went up so high...you can't pay a floorsweeper $35/hour plus benefits and expect the vehicle price not to go up...
That is exactly right. So the rest of the population not making big fat UAW paychecks either bought an old beater or went deep in debt to support the over paid UAW workers. You have to feel for the guy working at the Hardware store for minimum wage trying to keep up with the inflation caused by UAW janitors making $35 per hour. :shades: The poor [non-permissible content removed] on the bottom cannot afford a wedge of Cheese with the over inflated prices. Caused by Unions. Especially the Public Employee Unions. Of course the guy making minimum wage can quit and go on welfare and get enough food stamps to eat steak and lobster several times a week on the rest of US.
If the states want to survive in this dog eat dog world, RTW is a good option. Wait and see how Indiana fares with RTW. They already have Cat moving in. It does not mean lower wages. Only less Union Oppression. I joined the CWA voluntarily because I felt they offered something for their dues. Not all Unions can claim that. All Federal workers are under RTW laws. Does not seem to hurt those Unions in the least. A manufacturer would have to have a screw loose to build a new factory in a Non RTW state. Think about VW. They would probably have located in Michigan if not for militant UAW forces. Tennessee is very happy to have them.
So it is the unions fault that the brand was never competitive from the get go?
GM's initial efforts with Saturn generated a lot of attention, almost all of it positive. Although the cars were only fair, if GM had continued to develop them they could have been very successful. Between the management's idiocy in not developing the product, AND the union's success in reverting the plant from innovative to typical union operation, Saturn's fate was sealed.
That was our savings. We NEVER ate out as it was only for rich people to eat out. Too expensive.
Yeah, I don't blame you Gary.....I also prefer home made Porterhouses and Rib-Eyes
After nine years with Bell do you know how much pension I get???? $ZERO$, you had to work 15 years to be vested.
Why did you quit? Why didn't you participate in there 401K/Company Stock Plan? Well if you follow Marsha7's teachings you should of funded your own retirement. Why should you depend on the company? :P
And the guy I worked with that just retired last year at 76 years of age, had 16 years with AT&T and gets a whopping $207 a month since he turned 65.
That is more than my Step-dad got at Rowe after 22 years. You had to get at least 25 years in before you got something worth a damn. 30 I think he would of gotten $900 a month. They moved the plant to Mexico, 3 years ago despite huge concessions from the workers. Glad my step dad got in at GM.
No early retirement back then. You definitely are not up on the Average American from the 60s and 70s. The UAW smoke was too thick in your area to see anyone else in the country. So how much did your UAW family members make per week in 1965? Let's compare standards of living.
Well all the people who were smart enough to join unions did! The Autoworkers despite your myths were not as well paid back then as you lead people to believe. People left GM and other plants to go work at other union shops because they paid better.
The only UAW worker in my family that worked at GM in 1965 was my grandfather on my mothers side but he has been pushing up daisy's for about a dozen years now so I can't ask him what he made in 1965.
A guy from California was telling me the problem with the state is there is pretty much no middle class left. You have people who are rich beyond the dreams of avarice and then you have everbody else who is circling the drain.
That is pretty much my take on it lemko! Everyone and there brother wants to live there due to the nice weather thus it is supply and demand. The Capitalist don't like supply and demand and the free market when it affect their billfold!!! :P
Comments
tlong posted it well...you want to know where are they going to get the money to put into the 401K...try giving up cigarettes (a carton at, what, $30/week is already $1500/year, and it is the poor that smoke the most...you know, the ones who can't put food on the table but find the money for cigarettes) beer, $600 iPhones with unlimited data plans, big screen TVs to watch something as useless as football & baseball and smoke their cigarettes and drink all that beer, and all the crap they buy from Home Shopping network...
rocky, they CAN put away the $$$, they just have to have a long range view that goes out further than tomorrow's lottery ticket drawing...and, it appears that you may be one of the worst offenders, because the positions you advocate obviously seem to think that they have a right to buy all that crap but that SOMEONE ELSE (always someone other than them) is responsible for their retirement...
It doesn't take a lot of brains to put money away, and it doesn't take a lot of money, either...but it takes the discipline to NOT BUY the crap and put the money away for the future...and that, as always, comes down to personal responsibility, something you will fight tooth and nail that you shouldn;t have...always up to someone else to take money out of their pocket for your future...heaven forbid you might take that responsibility...
I sure hope you aren't teaching any of that Commie crap to your kids, otherwise we will just have more parasites in the system later on...
gagrice: how do you have a 1965 paycheck that isn't even faded over time???...and who keeps check stubs over 40 years???...even if the IRS thought you were guilty of fraud, they wouldn't go back 45 years...
My ex-wife who is now my current wife still had it in a bunch of papers she saved over the years. That was the second year of our first marriage. I framed it as a reminder of when times were not quite so good financially. I would bet a comparable UAW check from that period would be a lot more. You are right about saving. We got by not wasting money on anything frivolous. I don't recall ever eating out. Even on vacation. We would camp out and fix our meals. Rocky was raised in the cushy years when money was loose for the auto industry. I think he is starting to see the new reality.
I talked to a guy today, back on the job market. His biotech job went away. Told me as a computer programmer in San Diego the most he has ever made is $22 per hour. He has all that Microsoft and Cisco certifications. He will probably be lucky to get $12 to $14 per hour. Even the biotech industry is struggling. Things are not well here in CA and getting worse. The reality is most of the people struggling are Democrats. And they are clueless as to what has caused the depression. You try to explain and they blame it on the 1%. Cannot accept that the elitist in their party have bankrupted CA and soon the whole country. Some of the really slow ones still believe in Obama. The rich are not going to cough up the money to fix the mess. And they don't have enough if they had a mind to. And the middle class, you and I cannot afford to keep carrying the poor.
The industry has added 200,000 jobs many of those are UAW jobs!!!! With all the in sourcing going on in the American Automobile Industry (Big 3) GM/Ford/Chrysler is still hiring at some plants and will continue to do so as new models are going to be built here instead of Canada or Mexico.
I was doing some calculating. On my 1965 pay stub they took out 12% for savings in the AT&T stock plan(no matching). 7% was taken out for medical. 12% for IRS & 3.5% for SS. That left me for 2 weeks $127 to live on. I had been working for Bell 5 years at the time. In 2012 dollars that is about $459 per week. If that is what I was making today you would consider me poverty level. I would not be paying 12% income tax as I did back then. And to top it all off I was putting my wife through college and she did not work. By the way at the time AT&T was the largest company in the world. I did not have a TV and chopped wood to heat. It was not the cushy life the UAW workers had back them with a winter home in Florida. But I got by and kept plugging along. Trying to make it through the messes the Democrats kept making. And now I am doing fine. No substitute for hard work and perserverance. -gagrice
HaHaHaHa!!! You're being funny right? I think that was a lot more than $459 a week in today's dollars. I do not buy that!!! Nice Try!!!! :P I really do enjoy debunking your myths almost as much as Marsha7's
$127.06 in 1965 had the same buying power as $919.03 in 2012.
Annual inflation over this period was 4.30%.
http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
So if you take out the stock his real income would be around $151.46 in 1965 had the same buying power as $1,095.52 in 2012.
Annual inflation over this period was 4.30%.
"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
I would take Gagrice's 1965 paycheck right now in today's dollars! I would have it whipped!!!! I would of ate steak 5 days a week and Lobster and Shrimp on weekends but if you ask him he had it so awful!!!! He was paid better than I was making at the bomb factory in Texas, working OT
Sounds to me like one of those stories our parents told us about walking to school up hill both ways in 2 feet of snow!!! :P
-Rocky
That does not make me a communist! I believe in Welfare Capitalism or as dumb Americans call it Socialism. I do believe the government should have oversight and regulation on business!!! I know your right winger buddies can't define socialism or communism so you not knowing what it means is not surprising to say the least!!!
rocky, they CAN put away the $$$, they just have to have a long range view that goes out further than tomorrow's lottery ticket drawing...and, it appears that you may be one of the worst offenders, because the positions you advocate obviously seem to think that they have a right to buy all that crap but that SOMEONE ELSE (always someone other than them) is responsible for their retirement...
How in the hell does Joe Six Pack put away for retirement when he is wondering if he is going to be able to buy diapers for his kids? I know you live in an alternative universe being a well paid attorney and you have forgotten your so called blue collar roots but reality is real wages due to the value of the dollar has declined. You can go to most any place around this country and white and blue collar workers are being paid what they were back 15 or 20 years ago. I know attorney fee's have went up over that time frame so you might think it was the same for everyone. A attorney that made $100 bucks an hour in 1985 now makes $300 bucks an hour today!
I sure hope you aren't teaching any of that Commie crap to your kids, otherwise we will just have more parasites in the system later on...
When they are old enough I'm going to teach them to be trade unionist!!!
-Rocky
That's probably the biggest factor for Rocky. Another factor though, that probably weighs in for the rest of us, is that the 401k wasn't even created until 1978, and didn't start becoming popular until the 1980's. So most people who are heavily dependent on 401k's simply haven't reached retirement age yet.
Most of the people I know who are retired are on a pension as well, but I'm also in the DC suburbs, so many of them are government workers. Outside of the gov't, my grandfather is a retired railroad worker, and gets a pension. But, like most other industries, I doubt the railroad pensions are as sweet today, if they even exist. I also have two uncles who worked for A&P Grocers (I think it's Superfresh now), and they get pensions...but I think they were union, as well.
In my line of work, our contract goes up for renewal every five years, and the incumbent almost always loses the contract. New company comes in and picks everybody up (unless there's someone they were hoping to get rid of, and even that's a rare case), and we have to start with a new 401k plan. The old 401k's either get rolled over, converted to an IRA, or just left where they are, depending on the circumstances. One of my former co-workers would always cash out her 401k whenever we started with a new employer, pay the taxes and penalties, and then blow the rest. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people do that. They look at the balance after 5 years, see that it's not so great and isn't going to help their retirement any, so they just cash it out, blow it, and enjoy it now. They don't really give it time to compound.
So if you take out the stock his real income would be around $151.46 in 1965 had the same buying power as $1,095.52 in 2012.
What have you debunked?? Even adding my savings and adjusting to today's dollars it is $13.69 per hour after 5 years on the job. And you say you could not live on $14 per hour. More than many people are living today. So how was it so much better during the 1960s? I also paid CWA union dues each month out of my take home pay. Plus my wife's college tuition and books at San Diego State. Her folks were poorer than me. We lived in a converted garage that you would consider unlivable by your hifalutin UAW standards. See how well you debunk that.
Back in the day, my Dad could work in a factory yet own a modest home, raise a small family, take us on a modest but nice vacation every summer, and even buy a new Ford every couple of years. Though we lived in a modest duplex in a working-class neighborhood, I don't ever remember being cold or hungry. Mom kept the house so nice, I thought we were rather well-to-do.
Today's kids have college degrees and it is unlikely they'll ever own a home short of winning the lottery. Heck, they are saddled with a mortgage-sized debt before they even get out the gate. And for what - to get a job as a cashier at a fast-food restaurant despite all those years of study and a massive student loan debt? A lot of kids are considering suicide - something that would've been unthinkable of a recent college grad a generation ago. It used to be if a kid had a college degree, the world was his oyster. Today, he faces of bleak future with an insurmountable debt and a worthless degree that couldn't even get him a decent blue-collar job. Forget about raising a family or anything else tha goes with it. What will the kids of these kids end up like? Will they become like the street kids of Rio de Janiero?
Do you really think they would let a Norwegian into their little close knit society? And the link you posted said the Union and management worked closely together to make the finest cars in the World. Unlike thugs like Reuther that wanted to squeeze every penny possible out of the automakers. That does not make for a good working relationship. Going on strike when GM was bleeding red ink in 1998. No way you can compare the UAW and German Unions. It is likely you would be allowed to work the same jobs the foreign slaves are getting in Germany. A little research will show that they have a lower manufacturing pay than the US automakers.
They take home an average $2336USD per month. You don't want to be a Fire Fighter in Germany. They only take home $1895 per month. That would be $437 per week. Last I checked having a beer out with the boys is $10. And the cost of that Mercedes you would like to be building way out of your wage range.
http://www.worldsalaries.org/germany.shtml
So you thought the growth and use of our planet's resources would be never ending? If the Eco nuts like Rocky get their way you will be living in a cave as a hunter gatherer. Only you cannot kill another living thing to eat. So hopefully you can find some roots to chew on. The peak was probably reached when Peak Oil was reached. HMMMM Of course we sped up the process by bringing China into the First World buying all those iGoodies they send US. Now they are buying more cars, using more fuel, speeding the sled faster down the mountain. My kids do not have it as good as I had it in 2005 when the peak was reached. It is all down hill from here. Hangon :sick:
Either accept that's the way things are... or go buy a 12 pack every day to help
Or... we can just put the $13 per day in the bank daily and invest in our future.
My in laws saved everything (depression era raised). When we moved them out of their house into the condo at the retirement community, we had to trash 80% of what they had been storing, and just moving it from house to house.
Used (but cleaned, luckily :confuse: ) jello containers and Styrofoam cups from McDonald's. Used pie tins. Every (or at least is seemed like every) birthday, Christmas, and anniversary card from 50 years of marriage. Clothes that had never been worn in 20 years, but were still "good".
Then, had to do it again when we moved them from the condo into an assisted living place.
And with all that, my FIL still couldn't find the title to his car when we got 'round to selling it.
We are not falling backwards, we just have to shift priorities...gold plated pensions with free blue cross with no copays...nice work if you can get it, and they can't get it anymore...there is NOTHING wrong with paying for part of your own health insurance, putting away your own money for retirement, and paying copays (and deductibles) for seeing a doctor...this is just part of personal responsibility, something the UAW (and its disciples) still, to this day, has no conception of whatsoever...most of the rest of the working world has paid extra to insure their familiies, paid deductibles for each family member (often no more than 3), and paid copys for each...the only factor insulated from reality was the UAW factor, who literally received everything for free...
Shifting priorities means fewer cigarettes, less beer, and drop the gold plated $300/month cable package with NFL Unlimited and pay per view...also close the QVC and Home Shopping Network credit cards and buy less junk...if you stop and look at what they spend on that stuff, they could probably put away 1000s yearly into a retirement, but they won't...not "can't"...they won't...the money is there, but they spend it on bulls**t that does nothing for them except mindless entertainment...
No, rocky, they HAVE the money, they just choose to spend it foolishly, and then wonder where the money went at retirement time...and remember, you can't legislate away STUPID, and that is what they are...
srs: "Clothes that had never been worn in 20 years, but were still "good...And with all that, my FIL still couldn't find the title to his car when we got 'round to selling it."
That is because a birthday card from 1978 is important, but something as mundane as a car title...hey, who needs a car title???... :shades:
But it's all from unions, not from our treacherous and irresponsible executive class who has done nothing like steering a ship into an iceberg, nope.
Those numbers should be adjusted to 2012 dollar to euro values, and also mention that nobody in Germany goes broke from student loans or medical debt.
I debunked your $459 a week quote!!!! Your $151.46 1965 salary (if you take out the $24 an change for stock) would be like earning $1,095.52 a week today!
$199.88 (Your Gross) in 1965 $199.88 in 1965 had the same buying power as $1,445.75 (Your Gross in today's dollars) in 2012. Annual inflation over this period was 4.30%.
$1,445.75/ 40 hours = $36.14 per hour in today's dollars!!! :surprise: x 52 weeks that is $75,179 in today's dollars!!! Great Scott!!!
So do not cry poverty again to us!!! That was one hell of a UNION JOB!!!! You have been pampered by the union your whole life yet you despise them!!! I guess we found out who "The Me" generation is!!! :P Do you really think a guy could work a job like that today and afford to send his wife to school and own a home!!! NOT!!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
You are right! Socialist do not fight the union every step of the way! They grew up accepting unions. In fact the boss comes around and scoops beer into there mug while they are working! The company is not militant. My great uncle who passed last year told me it was like a dream working over there. He said the management worked with the union instead of fighting them. So there is a big difference in attitude. Funny you bring up Reuther? Did you know he and Gov. George Romney were friends? Reuther is the best union boss probably of all time. George Romney did not blame the UAW for AMC going belly up he blamed management. Well that is what he said a year before he died at a rambler group in 1995.
Unlike thugs like Reuther that wanted to squeeze every penny possible out of the automakers. That does not make for a good working relationship. Going on strike when GM was bleeding red ink in 1998. No way you can compare the UAW and German Unions. It is likely you would be allowed to work the same jobs the foreign slaves are getting in Germany. A little research will show that they have a lower manufacturing pay than the US automakers.
They take home an average $2336USD per month. You don't want to be a Fire Fighter in Germany. They only take home $1895 per month. That would be $437 per week. Last I checked having a beer out with the boys is $10. And the cost of that Mercedes you would like to be building way out of your wage range.
Your theory of standard of living has been debunked by Fintail and myself several times yet you keep going there!!! WHY? :confuse:
-Rocky
http://cdn.supergreenme.com/500x333_Polluted-river-Kathmandu-Nepal-sml.JPG
and in the Libertarian Utopia this would be living it up:
http://www.nunukphotos.com/images/polluted-river-in-slum-pv.jpg
I'm proud to care about our environment! :shades:
-Rocky
If you were so darn poor how in the heck could you afford $48 dollars a month in stock?
-Rocky
Presidential Candidate Buddy Roemer on Strong Unions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4le8kXSZ7Q
Roemer talks about D3 Management and the blame the unions get at the end of the video.
-Rocky
Rocky, are you paying attention??? Look back at that pay stub. It was for TWO WEEKS. That was Less than $100 per week. And did you see what percentage was taken out for medical coverage? Did you notice how much was taken out for Federal Taxes? Which proves working for a major company in 1965 with 5 years service paid less than it does today adjusted for inflation. By the way Verizon pays their technicians here in California with 5 years service about $35 per hour. Two and one half times more than I made in 1965 adjusted for inflation.
Those numbers should be adjusted to 2012 dollar to euro values, and also mention that nobody in Germany goes broke from student loans or medical debt.
That is something, gagrice never factors in! He forgets to mention those key points! Everyone can go to college or trade school in Germany and everyone has health care coverage.
-Rocky
$99.50 in 1965 had the same buying power as $719.69 in 2012.
Annual inflation over this period was 4.30%. or in today's dollars $37,423.89 Annual Salary
Okay, you were not as rich as I thought but you had it better than most! Both of my grandparents had to work to make ends meet in 1965 at GE
-Rocky
-Rocky
That was our savings. We NEVER ate out as it was only for rich people to eat out. Too expensive. After nine years with Bell do you know how much pension I get???? $ZERO$, you had to work 15 years to be vested. And the guy I worked with that just retired last year at 76 years of age, had 16 years with AT&T and gets a whopping $207 a month since he turned 65. No early retirement back then. You definitely are not up on the Average American from the 60s and 70s. The UAW smoke was too thick in your area to see anyone else in the country. So how much did your UAW family members make per week in 1965? Let's compare standards of living.
Dunno how they were doing in 1965, but my Granddad retired from the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1974, after 35 years of service. He was making $6.00 per hour when he retired, which would come out to $27.58 per hour today, or about $57,366 per year. Plus overtime. I have no idea how much overtime he got, over the years. I know it was a lot during WWII, but don't know about the later years.
That's really not an extravagant salary, but he managed to raise three sons, buy a decent house in nice community (well, back in 1964...it's getting pretty ghetto today). Paid cash for every car they ever bought, although they never really went extravagant...'57 Ford Fairlane 500, '61 Galaxie 500, '63 Monterrey, and then smaller cars after that like Tempests, a Dart, Granadas, a small LTD, and two Tauruses. Grandmom worked as well, but I'd imagine her work history wasn't quite as long, what with taking the time off to have kids and such.
I recall reading somewhere, that even when pensions were in their prime, only something like 45% of jobs actually offered them. And with such caveats as vesting and other outs for the employer, it's a safe bet that fewer than 45% of workers back then actually managed to get a pension.
How many people sneak into Germany each year and get free medical care? Then how many of those people take jobs from German citizens? You are comparing apples to oranges. We will never have a closed society like Germany, Norway etc etc. Our borders are open sieves for all practical purposes.
That is the only chart I could find. Are you saying wages have inflated a great deal since 2005?
I thought you told me that was the best of times. I was not poor. I was far from wealthy and we lived in what you would consider a ghetto today. My wife did not work as she was taking a full load at college. You did notice they took out 7% for HC. Which was not an option. In fact I did not remember it being taken out as we never used the medical in the 9 years I worked at Pacific Telephone.
Fast Forward to now. If you have a job that pays $35 per hour without a college degree in CA you are a fat cat. The Median income in the USA is $49k per year. $35 per hour is $72k without any OT. My nephew working for Verizon is doing very well. He cannot buy a home as he just transferred to Bakersfield from Maryland. They hated it there and had to give up their upside down home. They don't plan to stay in Bakersfield so renting is the best option. There are a lot of college grads that would jump on a $20 per hour job here in San Diego. I told you about one I talked to yesterday. A BS in Computer programming. All the Certs. Most he has made since college is $22 per hour. The only people I know graduating and making big bucks are Registered Nurses. Big shortage here. One out of a hundred applicants get into nursing school here. They don't need no Union to make $50 per hour plus.
Apple (AAPL) stock continues to soar into the stratosphere, finally closing on Monday at $552.00 a share, which is an all-time record for the Cupertino, Calif.-based computer company. Monday's high now puts Apple's market cap over $514 billion, which now exceeds Exxon's market cap -- the No. 2 company, currently standing at $403 billion -- by more than $100 billion.
http://img.ibtimes.com/www/articles/20120312/312961_apple-aapl-stock-552-exxon-m- arket-cap.htm
I found a w-2 from the last year my grandpa worked in 1979 as a 43 year steel mill union employee. I remember him telling me that he was the highest hourly paid employee in the mill when he retired. It was $11/hr and according to his w-2 from 1979 he made $24k which would be about $80k today. I know he didn't work a ton over over time his last few years, but it would be $11/hr plus holiday pay etc.
That's comparable to what many of mill workers earn today. I have a few HS friends that work for US steel. They easily hit $100k considering the o/t they work. Both of them average 60 hours a week as crane operators and always seem to be on 12 hour shifts.
I've read that too. This idea that fat paying factory jobs with great benefits were available to all that wanted them is ridiculous. Look at income levels and poverty rates from the 50's to early 60's and it's sobering. I'm sure it was great to be in Michigan back then, but Michigan doesn't equate to all 50 states.
My other grandpa was a disabled WWII vet and he couldn't work in a mill or factory. He often worked 2-3 jobs to support a wife and 4 kids and never owned a house. 100% VA disability wasn't enough to live on, so he stayed partially disabled and worked where ever he could to make ends meet.
I think almost every boy from my generation would've loved to do at least as well as his Dad or better. In some respects, I've done really well, but I never felt I had the financial wherewithal to raise a family like he did.
I say purchasing power here vs there is different now, and I wouldn't be surprised if they have seen stronger real income gains too.
For this I have some speculation...is it possible that home prices, and certainly car prices, rose far faster than the rate of inflation???...plus, back in the 50s and 60s (maybe the 70s) folks usually bought the house they could afford, whereas in the last 20-plus years, folks have been going out on a limb buying a house twice what they could really afford, and counted on appreciation (ah, inflation) to bring up the value of the house faster than other things so they could BORROW against the equity, which actually means going further into debt, and it was debt they could not service...hence, you need 2 incomes simply to keep up with a house payment (or 2 or 3) that they never should have incurred in the first place...so, you look and say that wages didn't rise fast enough...I say that they simply bought more home and more car (does everybody really need, or can afford, payments on a 40K-plus BMW or Benz?)...
Like the kid who gets a $10 weekly raise and now spends $20 more each week, he says that his wages aren't keeping up with inflation, when he is spending more than he needs to...
Plus, look at vehicles...a decked out Expedition or Yukon Denali costs well over $50,000...isn;t that a lot of money for a glorified staion wagon???...do they break the $60K mark yet???
rocky, it isn;t that wages have not kept up with inflation, it is that families have lost the common sense when they make their two biggest purchases, cars and homes...
Folks buy houses over $400K when they can only afford a $200K home...but they want to live in the nicer neighborhood...well, too bad, you can't afford it...so when Momma goes to work, you lament the poor wages and I am saying that they simply bought too much house...add in the $50K Expedition and the $50K BMW, and it isn;t wages that haven;t kept up, it is that they simply refuse to live within their means...bankers who used to want 20% down on a house, and 10-20% down on a car, for years only wanted no down payment on the house and $500 down on each car...car loans used to be 36 months, now going out to 72 months...it isn;t the wages that are the problem, it is the spending on things that they really simply cannot afford...
So, if you ARE middle class, but spend like the upper class, you will find yoruself deep in the hole...your trade-in rolls over the negative equity into the new loan, so you now have a $50K car with a $75K loan on it...the increased home equity was thought to be the solution until the real estate bubble popped...
It isn't wages rocky...it is people who simply must keep up with the Joneses at any cost, until they come to me for a Chapter 7...then it is REALLY over...
I had a client 2 years ago...bought a Florida condo for $100K...when the value went up (all artificial, if you ask me, but the bubble was growing) to $200K she refinanced and pulled out $100K in "equity"...this went on...she refinanced when it was $350K, pulled out all the "equity", and did it once more when it was appraised at, no joke, $500K...her mortgage payment was $4,000 a month...she was renting it for $1500 month as it was all she could get, and that was only 3 months out of the year...she was borrowing on her Visa Card, cash advances, $4K a month to make the mortgage payment...that lasted until Visa said "No More"...she argued with me for hours that she had "made the payment" for the last 12 months...I said no, YOU didn't make a payment at all, you just borrowed from one line of credit to pay another one, until Visa shut the spigot off...she finally understood that she was so far in over her head, but it took default to wake her up...
Did she have insufficient income???...not at all...she simply borrowed more money than she could afford to pay...she should have sat there and SOLD the condo for $500K and she would have made REAL MONEY, the same as the idiots who bought Pets.com for a dollar and rode it up to $100/share, and rode it down back to 10 cents a share...had they sold at $100 they would have made real money, despite that fact that the dotcom boom was no boom, but the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on the Americna public...the illusion was that the stocks were worth anything at all, when they had no assets, no sales, no equity and no money...
No rocky, it isn't that wages have not kept up...we simply wanted 5000 sq ft homes when we could really afford only a 2000 sq ft home, so instead of saying that wages didn't keep up, we just spent more than we ever could in the last 100 years...and cars are the same...we have bought cars that were NEVER in our budget, but with 8 year loans they seem affordable...until we trade them in after 4 years, find out we have no equity, and roll that balance into the enxt loan...so the next $40K car has a $60K loan, and you have the gall to say that wages don't keep up???...no...we simply bought more than we could ever pay, so it seems like we cannot keep up, but for those who lived within their means, that is less likely to happen...
Don't forget...all those UAW raises are why the vehicle price went up so high...you can't pay a floorsweeper $35/hour plus benefits and expect the vehicle price not to go up...
Must have been a generational thing. My grandpa (the one who worked in the mill) always had at least $500-$1,000 on him in the late 70's to 80's and he usually carried to wallets. He also paid cash for his cars too. At least when he was close to retirement and retired.
Only time I carry 4 figures on me is when I go to a Casino (which isn't that often). Other than that, I might have $100 on me, but I usually don't like to carry much more than that.
That is exactly right. So the rest of the population not making big fat UAW paychecks either bought an old beater or went deep in debt to support the over paid UAW workers. You have to feel for the guy working at the Hardware store for minimum wage trying to keep up with the inflation caused by UAW janitors making $35 per hour. :shades: The poor [non-permissible content removed] on the bottom cannot afford a wedge of Cheese with the over inflated prices. Caused by Unions. Especially the Public Employee Unions. Of course the guy making minimum wage can quit and go on welfare and get enough food stamps to eat steak and lobster several times a week on the rest of US.
-Rocky
GM's initial efforts with Saturn generated a lot of attention, almost all of it positive. Although the cars were only fair, if GM had continued to develop them they could have been very successful. Between the management's idiocy in not developing the product, AND the union's success in reverting the plant from innovative to typical union operation, Saturn's fate was sealed.
Yeah, I don't blame you Gary.....I also prefer home made Porterhouses and Rib-Eyes
After nine years with Bell do you know how much pension I get???? $ZERO$, you had to work 15 years to be vested.
Why did you quit? Why didn't you participate in there 401K/Company Stock Plan? Well if you follow Marsha7's teachings you should of funded your own retirement. Why should you depend on the company? :P
And the guy I worked with that just retired last year at 76 years of age, had 16 years with AT&T and gets a whopping $207 a month since he turned 65.
That is more than my Step-dad got at Rowe after 22 years. You had to get at least 25 years in before you got something worth a damn. 30 I think he would of gotten $900 a month. They moved the plant to Mexico, 3 years ago despite huge concessions from the workers. Glad my step dad got in at GM.
No early retirement back then. You definitely are not up on the Average American from the 60s and 70s. The UAW smoke was too thick in your area to see anyone else in the country. So how much did your UAW family members make per week in 1965? Let's compare standards of living.
Well all the people who were smart enough to join unions did! The Autoworkers despite your myths were not as well paid back then as you lead people to believe. People left GM and other plants to go work at other union shops because they paid better.
The only UAW worker in my family that worked at GM in 1965 was my grandfather on my mothers side but he has been pushing up daisy's for about a dozen years now so I can't ask him what he made in 1965.
-Rocky
-Rocky
That is pretty much my take on it lemko! Everyone and there brother wants to live there due to the nice weather thus it is supply and demand. The Capitalist don't like supply and demand and the free market when it affect their billfold!!! :P
-Rocky