Look at Fiskar - they are working with the UAW in Delaware. They didn't have to but they chose to not fight the union.
What does Fiskar manufacture in Delaware? Last Fiskar tools I looked at were all made in China. I fortunately got the last of the USA made ones I needed.
Ah, you mean Fiskers motors. That is a startup on our tax dollars.
Fisker Automotive has raised more than $500 million in private equity and, in September 2009, was approved for a $529 million government loan from the United States Department of Energy's Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing loan program initiated by Congress during the Bush Administration in 2007.
Looks like the UAW may have a wait for those jobs. So far they are building them in Finland.
Fisker's outsourcing methods have allowed the company in a 2–3 year period of development instead of the typical 5 years and at a cost of $333 million instead of $1 billion.[6]
However a requirement of the government loan is that some of the money be spent building or renovating a manufacturing facility in the US, in order to ensure manufacturing jobs are not shipped overseas. Fisker fulfilled its obligation by purchasing GM's former Wilmington Assembly plant in Delaware for $20 million, and plans to start production of its next generation Electric Vehicles with extended range there in late 2012. The company expects to create more than 2,000 jobs there. Building a new plant would have cost well over $1B.
So they took our $529 million and spent $20 million on an old GM factory in Delaware with the understanding that someday they will hire UAW workers to build the next generation Fisker car. My guess is they file for bankruptcy after our money is gone. Another Solyndra in the making. I cannot find any pricing on the Karma. My guess well over $100k.
And I'll counter with the point that no company could easily start a new auto company/plant in Hamtranck, Lordstown or Ingersoll (to name a few) without having to deal with the UAW at some point.
That is the reason the foreign car companies come in and build new state of the art factories in RTW states. So they don't have to hassle with UAW featherbedders. Same as Ford is doing all over the world with new factories. GM would rather beat their heads against a wall trying to please that bunch of overpaid babies in Michigan especially. The smart states will pass RTW laws and neuter the Unions. If they are doing a good job people will join voluntarily. If they are killing the goose laying the golden eggs the smart employees will opt out of the union.
"The report said the UAW has for some years been relying on savings to fund its ongoing operations and has since 2007 taken large drawdowns from its assets to finance ongoing operational and organizing efforts.
“Two years after the wrenching restructuring of the U.S. auto industry and the bankruptcies that remade General Motors and Chrysler, the UAW is facing its own financial reckoning,” the Reuters report begins."
That is the reason the foreign car companies come in and build new state of the art factories in RTW states.
Which is true and which I believe is the way that transplants will always do it. But my response was in regards to another auto company - let's say Honda - taking over one of the current GM plants. You can bet they'd have to deal with the UAW IF it were to happen.
I dunno. I figure if Honda ever bought a GM plant the first thing they would do is gut and set it up their way. The only reason that firing the UAW guys wouldn't be the first thing is that they'd make not taking them be part of the deal.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I don't think any new or transplanted manufacturer in their right mind will build (or renovate) any facility that's not in a right to work state. The unions are declining, but the old industrial north hangs on to its refusal to adopt RTW which I think is just further accelerating the death of the Midwest and some of the Northeastern states as well. Basically, finance in NYC, some tech in Boston and gov in DC while most of the other big cities east of the Mississippi and north of the Mason Dixon line are gradually dying off.
True enough though Honda is in a non-RTW state and does just fine. I do think they are very careful about where they build but at the time were (correctly) confident enough that their people wouldn't want the union. 28 years down the road they are still right.
I'm not anti-union by any means but they have to understand what does and doesn't work. The UAW doesn't understand that. They don't realize the damage they have done and don't realize they are trying to do the same thing again.
Of course the move to the South is a pattern that has been going on a long time and doesn't have a happy ending. The factory in my hometown was a hard rubber plant. They made combs, bowling balls, battery casings and such. First they moved South for better profitability. Then they moved the factory to Taiwan. Eventually it became a wholly Asian operation. In search of greater profits the whole company became Asian.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
UAW doesn't understand that. They don't realize the damage they have done and don't realize they are trying to do the same thing again.
That is the sad reality I have tried to convey to our friend Rocky. When you have been told all your life that a person on the line at an auto factory should be earning upper middle class wages and benefits, it is hard to accept the reality when it strikes home. Truth is they were always paid more than other factory workers. It really struck me with that interview of a forklift operator at Delphi filing bankruptcy when they cut out his overtime. This blows my mind every time I read it.
DELPHI FORKLIFT OPERATORS MAKE $103,000/year This Detroit News story is shocking. Apparently, a large number of laid-off autoworkers are going BANKRUPT. BANKRUPT on salaries that are easily in the 80-90th percentile (they make more money than 80-90% of full-time year round workers in the United States).
The 80th percentile for full-time, year-round workers in the United States was $48,131/year in 2004 (the 90th percentile was $68,510/year. Both figures are from the National Bureau of Labor Statistics' 2004 Labor Compensation Survey. Median salary was $35,516/year).
Anyway, THIS FORKLIFT OPERATOR IS NOW IN BANKRUPTCY (WITH $469,000 IN DEBT) AFTER HE WAS UNABLE TO MAKE PAYMENTS ON VARIOUS THINGS WHEN HIS SALARY FELL FROM $103,000/year to $87,000/year.
$103,000/year. TO DRIVE A FORKLIFT.
Let me repeat that.
$103,000/year.
TO. DRIVE. A. FORK. LIFT.
"More UAW workers bankrupt
Autoworkers who used to thrive on overtime now find it tough to keep up their lifestyles."
If UAW workers were being paid what they are worth GM and C would not have gone bankrupt. The UAW workers would not have gone bankrupt. The blame lies fully at the feet of GM management and the UAW leaders. GM still owes US a lot of money. So handing out bonuses is premature. And the stock we did get as partial repayment is worth about half of what GM claims.
I think its sad (or pathetic) that the UAW is currently doing to Ford what they did to GM a decade ago. Repeating the same dumb moves that almost cost them their employer. Continuing to put Ford in a growing cost disadvantage will cost those idiots within this decade. I'm thinking that maybe the people at the Ohio Honda operation have figured out the long term foolishness sand futility of the UAW.
I was in high school (mind you I am 60 now) when I first realized that the UAW model couldn't keep working.
I was selling a guitar to the brother of a girl in my class. He's telling me how someone (I forget what relative bit some relative) got him set up at the Ford plant in Mahwah with a summer job. He was getting regular UAW wages for a summer job that consisted of (wait for it...) driving the cars off the assembly line! And getting overtime! Oy!
Here's a surprise - the plant closed down in the 80s.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
It really is sad. From what I see pictures of Detroit. It was once a decent city. Now it is one big ghetto. All caused by the entitlement mentality passed down from generation to generation in the UAW. With a little luck the UAW will go broke and those thugs running it will not get a pension. That would be justice. I would love to see Walter Reuther sitting with a tin cup on a corner in Detroit. I would imagine he is frying in hell for his evil deeds.
I was in high school (mind you I am 60 now) when I first realized that the UAW model couldn't keep working.
Frankly I never thought about it back then. I am now 68. I first paid attention in 1998 when the UAW went on Strike. I had just hit a big buck in Sun Valley ID and needed a new vehicle to get home. I was in luck as the local dealer had just gotten his last shipment of Suburbans when the strike started. When I did a little research I could not believe the UAW. GM was already losing market share by the boatloads to the Asians. And not profitable by any real honest accounting method. And the UAW walks out of a contract that was better than any of the competition. I was a solid Teamster and I became an avid anti UAW person. That 1998 strike was pure idiocy and totally uncalled for. Just a show of their goon mentality. They were fighting against losing jobs. Jobs they ran off with pay way above the competition. The UAW has no concept of supply and demand.
I always tell tat you and I come from very different ways of looking at things. I always consider that something must be pretty obvious when we agree on matters, yet some will still deny...
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
You're missing the point. He's having trouble getting by on $87,000 a year. That's in this part of the country--not NYC. I think I could get by if our income were trimmed to $87,000. Why can't he. There's more to this story.
>With a little luck the UAW will go broke and those thugs running it will not get a pension.
I recall listening to a radio talk show a few short years ago about the unions. They had their worker's pension funds funded at, e.g., 45%. But the retirement fund for the union management types was at 105% funding.
I don't think they're going to get left out on the short end of any stick. Then they say they're always standing up for the workers!!! ROFLAMO
I was born close to you in Erie PA. However most of my life was spent in opposite corners of the country. So it is understandable that we would see things differently. In the case of the UAW, I think the opinions are pretty universal that they are a big reason for the demise of the domestic auto worker.
I don't think they're going to get left out on the short end of any stick.
I don't know about the International Teamsters Pension fund. I know the Alaska Teamsters Pension is one big pot. The leaders and employees of the Union get their retirement from the same pool of money I get mine from. That makes it a much more personal thing when investing that money. The UAW workers have to depend on the automakers integrity which we know is not exemplary.
The Detroit news no longer has it on their website. I think the $469K in debt included a lake cabin, two new vehicles and a boat. And of course his home. This was before the housing bubble burst, so he should have been able to sell off some of those obligations. The real issue as I see it is borrowing against something as unknown as OT. I am sure even at $87k he was working some OT. Just hard to feel sorry for a an unskilled laborer making $87k per year. Not to mention over $100k. I know my good friend that lost his job at HP went from $100k down to $35k and is struggling to keep up with his wife's spending habits. Lost his nice home on 5 acres, living in an apartment with two teenagers. This is a tough time for a lot of people. The UAW workers that want to squeeze Ford need to wake up and smell the wilted roses.
What unions, ALL UNIONS don't understand is they cost the general public, the private sector more money and jobs!! Unions are only good for those in them. I am educated and work in the high tech industry. I have always had to rely on my SKILLS and what the market will pay me for them. I have to constantly be learning, changing to what the MARKET wants. So far after 25 years of doing this.. I am doing just fine. Unions stagnate productivity. I was once doing a very large project of installation of new tools at a fab. The union electrician/pipe fitters slowed progress down with them having to take lunches and breaks at the same time everyday, along with ALL of them doing it!! Along with having certain people only being able to do certain jobs because they did not want to take work from someone else!! I work until the job is complete within the time specified. If I have to go to lunch a bit later, take a break a bit earlier or later to compenstate I do so. Bet you can't tell I just despise unions..
Workers have always banded together to achieve common goals. Nothing unusual or inherently wrong with that.
Kind of like other groups of people who have a common purpose, whether it's to get better working conditions or to worship alike or to elect like-minded people to office.
Shoot, total strangers get together on internet forums and join together to bash GM, Toyota and the UAW. :-)
Shoot, total strangers get together on internet forums and join together to bash GM, Toyota and the UAW.
Ain't it grand?
Cannon is correct in stating that Unions are many times detrimental to projects. They have done their fair share to push companies off shore to get better production. Not always about money.
I will just steer clear of UAW made goods. I consider the UAW as exemplifying all that is bad with private sector Unions. Of course you know I believe that public sector Unions should be outlawed. At least when it comes to Wages and benefits. They are negotiating with people that have no iron in the fire. A public sector union to resolve grievances etc would be ok. There are plenty of labor laws on the books to protect any and all workers in the USA.
Is buying Mexican or Korean really better than buying UAW? Man, I can't understand that for the livin' life of me. And I know no one who's ever been a UAW member.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
There are probably more vehicles built in the USA by non UAW workers. BMW, MB and now VW all build popular models here. Toyota, Honda and Hyundai are all here. All those workers are Americans also. I know the UAW members in Michigan would like to portray the auto workers in places like Alabama as toothless morons. It just does not hold water with me. Funny thing the fit and finish on my Indiana built Toyota Sequoia is hands down better than the 2005 GMC Sierra Hybrid built in Indiana. All I can think is the UAW workers are not as careful building vehicles. By contrast my Canadian and Mexican built GM trucks were better than my UAW made GM truck. I don't even buy the fairy tale the money stays here. How about all the parts GM gets from China and elsewhere?
All I know is, one hears so much about how "domestic" certain Toyota and Honda models are, but when the tsunami occurred, U.S. production virtually stopped. Hmmmm...
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
If the Tsunami had hit Korea or Taiwan GM would probably have shut down as well. I don't know if you have tried to find out where all the parts in a vehicle come from. I have and it is very misleading. When they say American content they mean American. That can be here or Canada and Mexico is also American.
I don't see where a Canadian built vehicle is any more helping US than one built in Mexico. You can look for your vehicle on here. Ford, Toyota and Chrysler lead the pack on US content. GM is down the list a ways even now in 2011.
I've lived with new Kias for a week at a time as rentals this past spring. Of course, they were always Souls. The people at work made fun of me for that. One guy said, "Do you go up to the rental counter and ask for one of those?"
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Frankly, I always thought the Clinton Gore line about union management partnership was a pipe dream. In reality two factors make union shops less competitive. First, if there weren't grievances then the workers wouldn't pay dues, so the environment is going to be antagonistic and toxic. Second, government rules and laws also screw it up. The union has most of the legal and legislative advantage against the company. It is far from a level playing field. Then the government also makes the union pursue all grievances, even if the fellow workers feel the worker grieving is a malcontent or loser.
I've worked in strong union and weak union (which is probably similar to non union) environments. The strong union locations were consistently less desriable work environments and the operations were usually less efficient and more screwed up. You can't fight all the time and not expect detrimental results. It wears everyone down and destroys attitude. It's a morale killer. Also those locations have idiots who think screwing the manager or company is a good thing - us versus them, even though "them" provides the salary and benefits which are lost if it goes away. Trust me, this is true whether you are dealing with professional unions like pilots or unskilled worker union locals.
If unions were positive, I'd expect that many operations in right to work states would be unionized - but the opposite is true. I think most people are intuitively smart about work things and paying dues supporting over paid union leaders for the privilege of working in an antagonistic and loser wins environment, which often devolves into a uncompetitive business unit more likely to be shut down, is not a thinking person's cup of tea. If you've worked in a union environment, ever notice how the stewards are usually some of the crappiest workers?
Now there are loser managers and executives too. But that is another issue dealing with ineffective board of directors in corprate America for whom politicians refuse to pass laws requring stronger acountability. I don't suppose many are healthy campaign contributors?
I'm very aware of North American content. I'm also aware of where management decisions are made.
Buying a Canadian-built car is not the same as buying an American-built car; however, the Big Three building in Canada is a decades-old thing. I plainly remember '73 Monte Carlos coming into my hometown Chevy dealer from Oshawa, ON.
First Mexican-built autos I saw at GM dealers didn't happen 'til after NAFTA passed.
The difference is, management is milking the system big-time by building in Mexico, which is basically a third-world country. That's as greedy, IMHO, as anything the UAW might have done. Remember, people are dying trying to get from Mexico into the U.S. Canadians aren't.
It's a big-picture thing.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
No car dealers there though, right? And a nice car will be destroyed by the winter? Makes sense. I wonder how the ROI used to fund their pension will compare to the average wage earner.
Then the government also makes the union pursue all grievances, even if the fellow workers feel the worker grieving is a malcontent or loser.
That brought an old story to mind. I'm a public employee with a lousy union now and a better one previously. I was actually on the executive board of the local of the old one for a few years and some tales in here have merit while some are off base.
Anyway - back to the story. One of the biggest places we represented was Blue Cross Blue Shield of NJ. In contract negotiations management insisted on ending separate sick, vacation and personal days with a block of PTO (paid time off) days. Any time management brings this in the purpose is to reduce the number of such days but such is life. Management wouldn't budge and contrary to what many believe they frequently can ram something like this through and they did.
Fast forward a year or two into the contract. They have this long time malingerer that they finally decide to come down on. This woman was notorious for calling out sick on Mondays and Fridays and such and this could be documented pretty well. They nailed her for sick time abuse.
As noted above, the union is obligated to represent her and to grieve the action. They look and look and can see she's obviously guilty as charged but are obligated to present a defense. They finally arrived at the fact that sick days did not exist in the contract and therefore it was impossible to abuse them. They won the case.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
That touches on another issue -an American legal system out of control, with no common sense, that is literally destroying American economic competitiveness and societal norms.
I'm a public employee with a lousy union now and a better one previously. I was actually on the executive board of the local of the old one for a few years and some tales in here have merit while some are off base.
That does explain why we may be on opposite sides from time to time. I would defend our Union with all its flaws also. I was on the E'Board and a shop steward for many years. Most of the cases I was involved with people being considered for firing, would have been fired if I was given the say. in the late 1970s we had a guy working at the RCA Alascom toll center in Anchorage, that was living in his motorhome on the back lot of the toll center. He was dealing drugs and carried a 9mm to work. They did not fire him until he was caught robbing a bank using the company van. When it all came out he was wanted for numerous felonies in San Francisco. Management was aware but inept to bring charges for his criminal behavior.
The year I retired the company was pushing through PTO on our Teamster contract. The members lost a lot of days in that contract. Glad I retired when I did. There is no doubt our standard of living is going to be impacted by what is happening in the USA and the World. I would say the UAW will not see the reality of it until it is too late for them. Corporate America has woven a very tight net around the workers. And both political parties are beholden to corporate America.
I think if you look carefully enough ta the overall labor picture you'll see the same thing going on as our national political parties - both sides are more interested in winning than they are in what is best for all concerned. We have to pull ourselves out of that mindset. It's nothing but destructive.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
As I recall, that forklift driver was making a LOT of money in overtime. And not just 1.5x, but some of those guys would get double or even triple-time for certain days.
I wonder what the guy's hourly rate was, and how many hours he was pulling per week? For instance, if he was paid $28 per hour, and got 1.5x for anything over 40 hours per week, theoretically he would only have to work around 60.5 hours per week to make $103,000 per year.
If memory serves it was in the $28 per hour range. Our contract at one time was double time after 12 hours and triple after 16 hours. We lost that in the 1980s downturn in the oil field. We went to double time after 16 hours. Which was rare to get. We worked a lot of 12-14 hour days in the summer when the sun shined 24 hours a day in the Arctic.
In the case of the Delphi fork lift operator. It was more the fact that a job as menial as that could work up to $28 was astounding. I started at the phone company in the mailroom and went to the warehouse after about 6 months. I got twice as much money as a fork lift operator as I did driving around delivering Company mail I was in hog heaven. Then after a year I got what I wanted working in the telephone Central Office and that was double what I got as a fork lift operator. In the UAW they are bred with that entitlement mentality. If you are a warm human being with a broom you deserve as much as everyone else. I hear that all the time from UAW die hards. Somehow they believe they are entitled to a good living wage no matter what their skill level is. It does not matter if the company is bankrupt. You could see it as recently as 2007 when GM lost something like $40 billion and the UAW went on strike against them. The lack of common sense within the ranks of the UAW is mind boggling. With millions in the street looking for a job you don't go on strike over some idiotic work rule.
Yeah, I guess that's the big question...should a forklift driver be making $28 per hour in the first place? It happens everywhere, though. I think our secretary at work makes around $67K per year. She's a GS9 and looks like she's a few days older than God now, so I'm sure she's made it all the way to the highest step, which is around $67k in the DC area. Is she worth that much? HELL no! Does she have that entitlement mentality? Well, is the Pope Catholic? :P
I do think it's sad though, that taking a pay cut from $103K to $87K is enough to throw you into bankruptcy. It's obvious the guy was over-extended on bills and credit, living way beyond his means, and expecting the overtime would last forever.
I'd think, though, that he could have tried getting a part time job, getting the wife to work (I have a gut feeling she was sitting on her butt eating bon-bons and watching Oprah and Dr. Phil all day long.) True, it was a ~$16,000 paycut, but at that income level, I'm sure that federal/state tax and SS would take 40-45% of that amount. So effectively, he's declaring bankruptcy over perhaps a $10K cut in annual takehome pay.
The more important question is: "Does the Korean or Japanese fork truck driver make half of that or even 1/3?" Go down the line of labor classes in the work place and tell me the "Little 3" can be competitive with the implants in the USA, let alone the foreign based production workers.
Forget about GM China, Ford Mexico. Not even an issue.
At the end of the day, the UAW attempt to bring the southern plants into the UAW is akin to forcing even more jobs off shore!!
Are pro=-Labor blind???? You can not preclude the global forces in any industry today. WAKE UP DUDES! It's A Small Word, After All!
"I was in high school (mind you I am 60 now) when I first realized that the UAW model couldn't keep working.
I was selling a guitar to the brother of a girl in my class. He's telling me how someone (I forget what relative bit some relative) got him set up at the Ford plant in Mahwah with a summer job. He was getting regular UAW wages for a summer job that consisted of (wait for it...) driving the cars off the assembly line! And getting overtime! Oy!"
I am waiting for some UAW rah-rah to post about how "skilled" the job was to drive cars off the assembly line... :confuse: :shades:
" If you are a warm human being with a broom you deserve as much as everyone else. I hear that all the time from UAW die hards. Somehow they believe they are entitled to a good living wage no matter what their skill level is. It does not matter if the company is bankrupt. You could see it as recently as 2007 when GM lost something like $40 billion and the UAW went on strike against them. The lack of common sense within the ranks of the UAW is mind boggling..."
You would really be amazed at their low level of ANY kind of intelligence if you met hundreds of them, as I did...they are like children following the pied piper or lemmings jumping off the cliff...to call them intelligent beings with skills is like calling astrology a science...
Nah, they probably have a little fun burning rubber on those sticks. Heck, they don't work for the manufacturer or the customer - they work for the union!
Comments
What does Fiskar manufacture in Delaware? Last Fiskar tools I looked at were all made in China. I fortunately got the last of the USA made ones I needed.
Ah, you mean Fiskers motors. That is a startup on our tax dollars.
Fisker Automotive has raised more than $500 million in private equity and, in September 2009, was approved for a $529 million government loan from the United States Department of Energy's Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing loan program initiated by Congress during the Bush Administration in 2007.
Looks like the UAW may have a wait for those jobs. So far they are building them in Finland.
Fisker's outsourcing methods have allowed the company in a 2–3 year period of development instead of the typical 5 years and at a cost of $333 million instead of $1 billion.[6]
However a requirement of the government loan is that some of the money be spent building or renovating a manufacturing facility in the US, in order to ensure manufacturing jobs are not shipped overseas. Fisker fulfilled its obligation by purchasing GM's former Wilmington Assembly plant in Delaware for $20 million, and plans to start production of its next generation Electric Vehicles with extended range there in late 2012. The company expects to create more than 2,000 jobs there. Building a new plant would have cost well over $1B.
So they took our $529 million and spent $20 million on an old GM factory in Delaware with the understanding that someday they will hire UAW workers to build the next generation Fisker car. My guess is they file for bankruptcy after our money is gone. Another Solyndra in the making. I cannot find any pricing on the Karma. My guess well over $100k.
That is the reason the foreign car companies come in and build new state of the art factories in RTW states. So they don't have to hassle with UAW featherbedders. Same as Ford is doing all over the world with new factories. GM would rather beat their heads against a wall trying to please that bunch of overpaid babies in Michigan especially. The smart states will pass RTW laws and neuter the Unions. If they are doing a good job people will join voluntarily. If they are killing the goose laying the golden eggs the smart employees will opt out of the union.
Go Tennessee, Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi, and Georgia!
Regards,
OW
"The report said the UAW has for some years been relying on savings to fund its ongoing operations and has since 2007 taken large drawdowns from its assets to finance ongoing operational and organizing efforts.
“Two years after the wrenching restructuring of the U.S. auto industry and the bankruptcies that remade General Motors and Chrysler, the UAW is facing its own financial reckoning,” the Reuters report begins."
Report Exposes Shaky UAW Finances (AutoObserver)
Be kind of ironic if they wind up "decertifying" themselves.
Which is true and which I believe is the way that transplants will always do it. But my response was in regards to another auto company - let's say Honda - taking over one of the current GM plants. You can bet they'd have to deal with the UAW IF it were to happen.
I'm not anti-union by any means but they have to understand what does and doesn't work. The UAW doesn't understand that. They don't realize the damage they have done and don't realize they are trying to do the same thing again.
Of course the move to the South is a pattern that has been going on a long time and doesn't have a happy ending. The factory in my hometown was a hard rubber plant. They made combs, bowling balls, battery casings and such. First they moved South for better profitability. Then they moved the factory to Taiwan. Eventually it became a wholly Asian operation. In search of greater profits the whole company became Asian.
That is the sad reality I have tried to convey to our friend Rocky. When you have been told all your life that a person on the line at an auto factory should be earning upper middle class wages and benefits, it is hard to accept the reality when it strikes home. Truth is they were always paid more than other factory workers. It really struck me with that interview of a forklift operator at Delphi filing bankruptcy when they cut out his overtime. This blows my mind every time I read it.
DELPHI FORKLIFT OPERATORS MAKE $103,000/year
This Detroit News story is shocking. Apparently, a large number of laid-off autoworkers are going BANKRUPT. BANKRUPT on salaries that are easily in the 80-90th percentile (they make more money than 80-90% of full-time year round workers in the United States).
The 80th percentile for full-time, year-round workers in the United States was $48,131/year in 2004 (the 90th percentile was $68,510/year. Both figures are from the National Bureau of Labor Statistics' 2004 Labor Compensation Survey. Median salary was $35,516/year).
Anyway, THIS FORKLIFT OPERATOR IS NOW IN BANKRUPTCY (WITH $469,000 IN DEBT) AFTER HE WAS UNABLE TO MAKE PAYMENTS ON VARIOUS THINGS WHEN HIS SALARY FELL FROM $103,000/year to $87,000/year.
$103,000/year. TO DRIVE A FORKLIFT.
Let me repeat that.
$103,000/year.
TO. DRIVE. A. FORK. LIFT.
"More UAW workers bankrupt
Autoworkers who used to thrive on overtime now find it tough to keep up their lifestyles."
If UAW workers were being paid what they are worth GM and C would not have gone bankrupt. The UAW workers would not have gone bankrupt. The blame lies fully at the feet of GM management and the UAW leaders. GM still owes US a lot of money. So handing out bonuses is premature. And the stock we did get as partial repayment is worth about half of what GM claims.
I was selling a guitar to the brother of a girl in my class. He's telling me how someone (I forget what relative bit some relative) got him set up at the Ford plant in Mahwah with a summer job. He was getting regular UAW wages for a summer job that consisted of (wait for it...) driving the cars off the assembly line! And getting overtime! Oy!
Here's a surprise - the plant closed down in the 80s.
Frankly I never thought about it back then. I am now 68. I first paid attention in 1998 when the UAW went on Strike. I had just hit a big buck in Sun Valley ID and needed a new vehicle to get home. I was in luck as the local dealer had just gotten his last shipment of Suburbans when the strike started. When I did a little research I could not believe the UAW. GM was already losing market share by the boatloads to the Asians. And not profitable by any real honest accounting method. And the UAW walks out of a contract that was better than any of the competition. I was a solid Teamster and I became an avid anti UAW person. That 1998 strike was pure idiocy and totally uncalled for. Just a show of their goon mentality. They were fighting against losing jobs. Jobs they ran off with pay way above the competition. The UAW has no concept of supply and demand.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june98/gm_6-19.html
Gary,
You're missing the point. He's having trouble getting by on $87,000 a year. That's in this part of the country--not NYC. I think I could get by if our income were trimmed to $87,000. Why can't he. There's more to this story.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I recall listening to a radio talk show a few short years ago about the unions. They had their worker's pension funds funded at, e.g., 45%. But the retirement fund for the union management types was at 105% funding.
I don't think they're going to get left out on the short end of any stick. Then they say they're always standing up for the workers!!! ROFLAMO
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't know about the International Teamsters Pension fund. I know the Alaska Teamsters Pension is one big pot. The leaders and employees of the Union get their retirement from the same pool of money I get mine from. That makes it a much more personal thing when investing that money. The UAW workers have to depend on the automakers integrity which we know is not exemplary.
Workers have always banded together to achieve common goals. Nothing unusual or inherently wrong with that.
Kind of like other groups of people who have a common purpose, whether it's to get better working conditions or to worship alike or to elect like-minded people to office.
Shoot, total strangers get together on internet forums and join together to bash GM, Toyota and the UAW. :-)
Ain't it grand?
Cannon is correct in stating that Unions are many times detrimental to projects. They have done their fair share to push companies off shore to get better production. Not always about money.
Time to move to Idaho. Not even sure if they had them, but they sure didn't have any salary negotiating power if they did.
Particularly if they are 2nd and 3rd rate and cost MORE than the competition BEFORE incentives, after which devalue the product even further!
I see some improvement but in the NEW ECONOMY, the NEW GM UAW contract could reduce profits just like the Old GM.
Let's see if Chrysler and Ford really lead the change the UAW isn't even ready for....more loss of membership.
BTW, please let us know the instant the UAW recruits one of those non-union plants in the NEW USA Auto Industry.
And, as always....GO KIA!!! :P
Regards,
OW
Try it before you can understand...or not. Then, just keep wondering...
That would really balance you out! Remember, I've experienced both. So far, Kia wins hands down!
Regards,
OW
I don't see where a Canadian built vehicle is any more helping US than one built in Mexico. You can look for your vehicle on here. Ford, Toyota and Chrysler lead the pack on US content. GM is down the list a ways even now in 2011.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/AALA/AALA2011_Percent.pdf
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Vehicle+Safety/Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Act+%2- 8AALA%29+Reports
I've worked in strong union and weak union (which is probably similar to non union) environments. The strong union locations were consistently less desriable work environments and the operations were usually less efficient and more screwed up. You can't fight all the time and not expect detrimental results. It wears everyone down and destroys attitude. It's a morale killer. Also those locations have idiots who think screwing the manager or company is a good thing - us versus them, even though "them" provides the salary and benefits which are lost if it goes away. Trust me, this is true whether you are dealing with professional unions like pilots or unskilled worker union locals.
If unions were positive, I'd expect that many operations in right to work states would be unionized - but the opposite is true. I think most people are intuitively smart about work things and paying dues supporting over paid union leaders for the privilege of working in an antagonistic and loser wins environment, which often devolves into a uncompetitive business unit more likely to be shut down, is not a thinking person's cup of tea. If you've worked in a union environment, ever notice how the stewards are usually some of the crappiest workers?
Now there are loser managers and executives too. But that is another issue dealing with ineffective board of directors in corprate America for whom politicians refuse to pass laws requring stronger acountability. I don't suppose many are healthy campaign contributors?
Buying a Canadian-built car is not the same as buying an American-built car; however, the Big Three building in Canada is a decades-old thing. I plainly remember '73 Monte Carlos coming into my hometown Chevy dealer from Oshawa, ON.
First Mexican-built autos I saw at GM dealers didn't happen 'til after NAFTA passed.
The difference is, management is milking the system big-time by building in Mexico, which is basically a third-world country. That's as greedy, IMHO, as anything the UAW might have done. Remember, people are dying trying to get from Mexico into the U.S. Canadians aren't.
It's a big-picture thing.
And yeah, I'm still in Michigan.
That brought an old story to mind. I'm a public employee with a lousy union now and a better one previously. I was actually on the executive board of the local of the old one for a few years and some tales in here have merit while some are off base.
Anyway - back to the story. One of the biggest places we represented was Blue Cross Blue Shield of NJ. In contract negotiations management insisted on ending separate sick, vacation and personal days with a block of PTO (paid time off) days. Any time management brings this in the purpose is to reduce the number of such days but such is life. Management wouldn't budge and contrary to what many believe they frequently can ram something like this through and they did.
Fast forward a year or two into the contract. They have this long time malingerer that they finally decide to come down on. This woman was notorious for calling out sick on Mondays and Fridays and such and this could be documented pretty well. They nailed her for sick time abuse.
As noted above, the union is obligated to represent her and to grieve the action. They look and look and can see she's obviously guilty as charged but are obligated to present a defense. They finally arrived at the fact that sick days did not exist in the contract and therefore it was impossible to abuse them. They won the case.
That does explain why we may be on opposite sides from time to time. I would defend our Union with all its flaws also. I was on the E'Board and a shop steward for many years. Most of the cases I was involved with people being considered for firing, would have been fired if I was given the say. in the late 1970s we had a guy working at the RCA Alascom toll center in Anchorage, that was living in his motorhome on the back lot of the toll center. He was dealing drugs and carried a 9mm to work. They did not fire him until he was caught robbing a bank using the company van. When it all came out he was wanted for numerous felonies in San Francisco. Management was aware but inept to bring charges for his criminal behavior.
The year I retired the company was pushing through PTO on our Teamster contract. The members lost a lot of days in that contract. Glad I retired when I did. There is no doubt our standard of living is going to be impacted by what is happening in the USA and the World. I would say the UAW will not see the reality of it until it is too late for them. Corporate America has woven a very tight net around the workers. And both political parties are beholden to corporate America.
I think if you look carefully enough ta the overall labor picture you'll see the same thing going on as our national political parties - both sides are more interested in winning than they are in what is best for all concerned. We have to pull ourselves out of that mindset. It's nothing but destructive.
I wonder what the guy's hourly rate was, and how many hours he was pulling per week? For instance, if he was paid $28 per hour, and got 1.5x for anything over 40 hours per week, theoretically he would only have to work around 60.5 hours per week to make $103,000 per year.
In the case of the Delphi fork lift operator. It was more the fact that a job as menial as that could work up to $28 was astounding. I started at the phone company in the mailroom and went to the warehouse after about 6 months. I got twice as much money as a fork lift operator as I did driving around delivering Company mail I was in hog heaven. Then after a year I got what I wanted working in the telephone Central Office and that was double what I got as a fork lift operator. In the UAW they are bred with that entitlement mentality. If you are a warm human being with a broom you deserve as much as everyone else. I hear that all the time from UAW die hards. Somehow they believe they are entitled to a good living wage no matter what their skill level is. It does not matter if the company is bankrupt. You could see it as recently as 2007 when GM lost something like $40 billion and the UAW went on strike against them. The lack of common sense within the ranks of the UAW is mind boggling. With millions in the street looking for a job you don't go on strike over some idiotic work rule.
I do think it's sad though, that taking a pay cut from $103K to $87K is enough to throw you into bankruptcy. It's obvious the guy was over-extended on bills and credit, living way beyond his means, and expecting the overtime would last forever.
I'd think, though, that he could have tried getting a part time job, getting the wife to work (I have a gut feeling she was sitting on her butt eating bon-bons and watching Oprah and Dr. Phil all day long.) True, it was a ~$16,000 paycut, but at that income level, I'm sure that federal/state tax and SS would take 40-45% of that amount. So effectively, he's declaring bankruptcy over perhaps a $10K cut in annual takehome pay.
I wonder if some BK attorney talked him into it?
Forget about GM China, Ford Mexico. Not even an issue.
At the end of the day, the UAW attempt to bring the southern plants into the UAW is akin to forcing even more jobs off shore!!
Are pro=-Labor blind???? You can not preclude the global forces in any industry today. WAKE UP DUDES! It's A Small Word, After All!
Regards,
OW
I was selling a guitar to the brother of a girl in my class. He's telling me how someone (I forget what relative bit some relative) got him set up at the Ford plant in Mahwah with a summer job. He was getting regular UAW wages for a summer job that consisted of (wait for it...) driving the cars off the assembly line! And getting overtime! Oy!"
I am waiting for some UAW rah-rah to post about how "skilled" the job was to drive cars off the assembly line... :confuse: :shades:
" If you are a warm human being with a broom you deserve as much as everyone else. I hear that all the time from UAW die hards. Somehow they believe they are entitled to a good living wage no matter what their skill level is. It does not matter if the company is bankrupt. You could see it as recently as 2007 when GM lost something like $40 billion and the UAW went on strike against them. The lack of common sense within the ranks of the UAW is mind boggling..."
You would really be amazed at their low level of ANY kind of intelligence if you met hundreds of them, as I did...they are like children following the pied piper or lemmings jumping off the cliff...to call them intelligent beings with skills is like calling astrology a science...
Well, some of them were stick shifts back then. He should get a bonus rate for that.....
I hope Roger Smith is there with him! :mad: