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$12/hr is better than $7/hr - oh yeah, if we didn't already pay $18/hr for welfare!
Exactly right. A $12 non union job or a $15 UAW job will support one person living a frugal lifestyle. No reason to do that if you are supporting a family and have figured out the welfare scams. So many of those 3 million skilled jobs will go unfilled or will go off shore. Think Hostess and $20 per hour bakers. Why do that when you can get Bimbo to bake it for less?
General Motors and its local partners, intensifying competition in China in the no-frills car market, on Sunday formally opened another plant for its low-cost Baojun brand.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You mean like the failed trickle down nonsense we have been enduring for more than a generation now? I agree, time to reverse it. It hasn't worked, and it isn't going to work. Clunk it.
FDR was a 1%er to the max, yes - just like Willard who was going to "save us". Really, some of this boggles the mind. But FDR wasn't stupid and arrogant enough to publicly announce his disdain for people who have actually had to scrape by at some point in their lives. So in the end, FDR is recorded as a winner, daddy's wallet not so much. A lesson learned for future "saviors".
Plenty of wealthy Americans become traitors and emigrate to tax havens, too, you know. I don't see how Germany is anything but a red herring in this - which I understand is a classic Edmunds discussion tactic
The UAW is more like a pimple. There are far more annoying and ugly warts out there.
Simple fair trade policies, which you conveniently don't mention, can circumvent many of those problems. I know, they are difficult when a unearned monied class advised by treacherous consultants controls all trade rules.
Thanks for specifying airliners and internet. I never would have guessed otherwise. The middle aged middle manager class who has brought so much is chock full of innovation :shades:
Societies might not sustain the lifestyles of the top few for very long, either. History proves again and again that when gaps become too wide, blood flows.
Germany hasn't pissed away its working class like the US has just yet. Their average voters don't have quite the blind adoration for the 1%, nor insane dreams of getting there themselves, unlike so many here.
You keep harping on that with nothing but your opinion to back it up. The Trickle up economics of the last 4 years has brought the Median income in the US down by more than any period in our history. You are reading too much Huffpo, DailyKos and Bruce Bartlett.
On a different front. Hostess offered the Unions a 25% stake in the company. Which they rejected. All over but the auctions.
Hostess' troubles came to a head when the company and its bakers' union reached an impasse on labor negotiations that could not be bridged. The company said that it offered the union wage, benefit and work-rule concessions, as well as a 25 percent ownership stake in the company. But the bakers union said the offer was "unacceptable," and that it had been rejected by 92 percent of its membership. A last-ditch attempt at mediation, ordered by a U.S. bankruptcy judge, was not enough to stave off the liquidation. The judge approved a request Wednesday by Hostess Brands Inc. to begin winding down its operations.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/180665291_Herald_News__Losing_more_than- - _sweet_memories.html
I thought my previous answer was pretty clear. It's a race to the middle. If you're above that, it's a drop. If you're below that, it's a race upward. In this country, people who can't differentiate themselves from uneducated third world labor are going to hurt the most. That's one of the reasons why groups like the UAW aren't getting much of the growing auto manufacturing in the US that is going down south. Some entities are trying to preserve their profitability through controlling the customer in sleazy ways, as the telecom industry. That's not going to last forever, either. The free market will kill that off, given time.
I also didn't see you comment on the fact that if we enacted all kinds of idealist trade policies, the rest of the world would evolve and trade and that would still affect us. We aren't going to be able to keep our heads in the sand and pretend it will all go away.
Thanks for specifying airliners and internet. I never would have guessed otherwise. The middle aged middle manager class who has brought so much is chock full of innovation
Whether you like it or not, large organizations need management, and some is good and some is not. As we've discussed in the past, perhaps your current dysfunctional employment zone taints your perspectives - a job change might expose you to the better side of the coin.
I consider some of the CEO compensation obscene. That is for the stockholders to decide. If the Apple Stockholders are fine with giving Tim Cook $378 million this year, not much we can do. The trend is toward lower salaries and more compensation in the form of stock. To lower the executive tax burden. Makes sense to me.
Can the OP of this number confirm it?
Can the OP of this number confirm it?
I was referring to a number I had seen from another poster, and have not verified it.
Can the OP of this number confirm it?
I was counseling a man in his early 50s that is on disability along with several other welfare programs. His plight was supporting his wife and two teenagers on $3200 per month. Now that does not include Medicaid and all his prescriptions. $3200 per month equals $38,400 per year. Divided by 2080 normal work hours in a year comes to $18.46 per hour equivalent. That is TAX FREE money. I did feel for him. Yet when I suggested his wife get a job as he is home to watch the kids. That was out of the question. If she has an income his aid to the kids goes down. It might explain the huge rush to go on disability over the last couple years.
"In 1985, 2.2 percent of individuals between the ages of 25 and 64 were receiving DI benefits, but by 2005 this fraction had risen to 4.1 percent. If recent entry and exit rates continue in the years ahead, then more than 6 percent of the nonelderly adult population will soon be receiving DI benefits."
http://open.salon.com/blog/don_rich/2012/07/05/what_are_the_facts_of_the_increas- - - e_in_disability
PS
How many old cars do you see in handicap parking spots???
As in anything there needs to be check and balances. Big business = big government = big labor is the equation which is fitting. Any sane and rational person could have seen the election outcome as what is was. If you listen to FAUX NEWS you might have been shocked. Regardless of the big money and voter supression Americans aren't happy with the lack of fiscal policy and the big hoax of supply side/trickle down promise of prosperity. Once again we see that Keynes was right all along and money in the hands of the middle class is and has always fueled this economy. Money in the hands of the 1% is an absurd ideology which has failed to produce the multiplier effect which creats jobs and increases the tax base. In the end the middle class consumption is the productive sector which creats jobs. Mind you this is the first time in history which monetary policy has been used and over used to expand the economy. Hence, Obama out smarted the do noting congress, as they have been coined due to their historical filibustering record, and now their one term drem has turned into a second term nightmare.
What channel are you watching? MSNBC? There is no voter suppression. In fact, we had 150% of registered voters in some FL precincts vote and oddly in Ohio many precincts voted 100% for the current admin--I can posit why, but I'll leave that for another discussion, other than to point out Al Sharpton is not a journalist, he's an aggitator.
>de/trickle down promise of prosperity
The billion dollar stimulus and TARP aren't showing much in rewards for middle class Americans. The lower workers get lots of welfare benefits and the top like Franke, Dodd, Reid, Pelosi, Schumer, etc., all are doing fine. Can't blame the other party for obama's things that haven't worked. Wait until obamaCare kicks in another step.
>Obama out smarted the do noting congress
The "do nothing Congress"? Would that include the Senate which has not passed a budget in 4 years? Or hasn't brought to the floor any of the myriad of bills from the House to affect the economy and other things in the life of the American People?
Watching way too much NBC affiliate for their Democrat activist reports pretending to be journalistic coverage.
Walter Cronkite must be turning over in his grave at the lack of journalism.
The current admin tries to pretend that all the union folks are the archexample of the middle class and that's who should benefit from legislation and further entrenchment of redistribution policies.
Further spread of unionization like the UAW into healthcare in all aspects is what cardcheck is all about. Just wait until that part of the plan is implemented! Michigan unions even got it so that parents taking care ofsomeone receiving healthcare benefits was having union dues taken out of their checks for medicaide or SSI or something: feel free to research just how that was effected.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There is no evidence anywhere on this planet that trickle down NONSENSE has worked. Why should I have blind faith? The same blind faith I should have had during the election when the silver spoon tried to "save us", I suppose? Again, it borders between insulting and insane.
I wonder if the Hostess business plan simply wasn't sustainable with or without unions. A 25% stake in something worth little might not be much of a carrot. I suspect a lot of those sweets simply don't sell like they used to. Whenever I have bought stuff like that, it is usually at the outlet stores where I can get a box for $1.
Many developed nations have better trade standards than the Walmartized US, who in one of Willard's best lines, has lauched a "trade surrender". Idealist? Only if your meal ticket comes from sweatshops, maybe. Nothing idealistic about having to play by someone's rules to have access to their market.
Free market? On which planet do you live? There is no free market. You get the market you pay for. Regarding telecom, if anything, that market will be less free. Europe was once much more wide open especially in mobile telecom, and is now adopting the strict US-style contract system. The trend is not towards a more open system. Free markets? I guess maybe according to some who seem to think we should emulate nameless tax haven pseudo-nations that exist via the work and expense of actual nations.
So what is it you do that gives you a different perspective from the reality I am able to examine? Sounds like another middle ager who climbed a ladder that doesn't exist anymore, and now looks down on those unable to climb that now deceased ladder. Sounds like consultant speak to me.
There's no real requirement for that, and it's likely the wrong focus. Unless perhaps you're a UAW member and thus also a shareholder, but even then, you'll tie yourself in knots trying to figure out what course of action is best for you in the end.
The Shareholder Value Myth (Amazon)
While I have no doubt that this has much correct about it, I also suspect that many average Chinese are doing far better than they were a decade ago. So for them, it's a race upward. I haven't seen any data to suggest that the standard of living in India or China is going down.
Free market? On which planet do you live? There is no free market.
We agree here, but there are shades of gray. Some markets freer than others. Perhaps I should have said "markets will adjust and cannot be artificially controlled for an indefinite length of time".
Regarding telecom, if anything, that market will be less free. Europe was once much more wide open especially in mobile telecom, and is now adopting the strict US-style contract system. The trend is not towards a more open system.
If there's a large distortion in the market where artificial controls are keeping prices higher than warranted, then entrepreneurial groups will find ways to disrupt those markets. Such as Apple has done with music. When the demand exists (cellular/internet communications), enterprising people are going to be looking to find a better way. It's going to come and it won't make ATT or Verizon happy, I'm sure. And none too soon for me.
Just like the UAW - "gee, we have these great benefits and contracts - we're in the driver's seat!". Except that other enterprising makes (Honda, Toyota, etc.) found a way to make cars here without the UAW. And so the UAW's greed crippled the golden geese (F, GM, C). Well companies like Comcast, ATT, Verizon, TW Cable, etc. are golden geese and they are ripe for similar disruption. And the US was also a golden goose and other countries are wanting to jump onto the gravy train.
So what is it you do that gives you a different perspective from the reality I am able to examine? Sounds like another middle ager who climbed a ladder that doesn't exist anymore, and now looks down on those unable to climb that now deceased ladder.
This sounds like resorting to personal statements of no merit to the argument, when valid defense of certain positions can't be made. But it still doesn't strengthen your argument.
You voted for trickle up and I think trickle down works better. We just have to disagree. As far as who is in the WH, that only helps perception of stability. And we have never had a more unstable president in my 69 year. Obama has to make Carter feel good about his presidency by comparison.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/
I'd say the tax policies of the past decade have helped the top few more than the bottom have gained. Wealth stats don't disagree.
I wouldn't say the Bush/War Criminal Cheney regime was any more stable than this, and was actually less respectable.. They can only thank their creator they had a mirage economy to keep the lie afloat.
Markets can't be artificially controlled (or I have to add, manipulated?) for any length of time? Really? Well, when that control finally breaks, let me know. It's existed for virtually all of my life for education, medical, energy, and really even telecom isn't much more open than in the monopoly days. I don't see any revolution on the horizon for mobile telecom - Apple got lucky because technology was changing right about the time its distribution channel came online.
Big 3 management, the seventeen levels of tenured fancy collars crippled the companies as much as any union abuse and excess - and more. It's not the relatively overpaid lifer slapping wheels on a Buick who makes bad product decisions after bad product decisions for decades. I wonder how management/executive compensation ballooned at the same time union pay increased. Amazes me that one is ignored, one is evil - but in the end, only one is signing the papers.
For some of those other companies, as long as they can buy regulations, they are fine. They are not quite as poorly managed as the old big 3. Regarding other nations on the gravy train, you mean those who scarf down taxpayer monies in direct or indirect aid, or those who want in to this market? For the latter, they can play by our rules, or not get in, or receive adjustments to level the field. The former can simply be cut off. Easy.
The merit is there - advice is given, but no details as to what is behind that advice, other than my experience with similar people. Doesn't hinder my argument either, as I suspect I am right on the money. Thanks
Well, it broke for the UAW - living fat and happy for the "working man" -- but gee, the business couldn't actually sustain those costs and work rules and jobs banks. So even the UAW contract had to be changed, and the new recruits get paid what - half or so? of the oldsters.
Telecom's time will come.
I wonder how management/executive compensation ballooned at the same time union pay increased. Amazes me that one is ignored, one is evil - but in the end, only one is signing the papers.
First, no doubt that exec salaries are obscene in many cases. But at a company like, say, GM, the actually $$ cost to the company of the execs vs. the UAW is like a fly vs. an elephant - there are just way too many UAW (or at least, were) to support the costs. Not as much for the high execs. And yes, we all wish that overpaid situation would change. I suspect in a generation we won't be seeing such imbalances.
Regarding other nations on the gravy train, you mean those who scarf down taxpayer monies in direct or indirect aid, or those who want in to this market? For the latter, they can play by our rules, or not get in, or receive adjustments to level the field. The former can simply be cut off. Easy.
No way this cutoff is going to happen. If the US govt wanted to cutoff, say, China - well even GM would be screaming, along with most of corporate America. And we don't like trading partners when they don't fit our values, but I'm not seeing people saying that we should immediately cut off mideast oil imports, even though the values there are at least as bad as China or India. Trade is bad unless it's something we want, right? :P
Don't forget the larger number of UAW retirees that were dragging the Domestics into bankruptcy with their Ponzi scheme pension plan. The $30 billion in tax payer dollars inserted into the GM/UAW pension plan is money we will never see again. And it looks like we may end up paying another big load with Obama back in the WH.
DETROIT (Reuters) - A healthcare trust for retired U.S. autoworkers was $33 billion short of meeting obligations to cover medical costs of those retirees at the end of 2011, newly released federal documents show.
The funding shortfall of $33 billion in the second year of the healthcare trust was 63 percent higher than the gap from the previous year.
Healthcare costs grew as the trust's assets shrank.
The United Auto Workers Retiree Medical Benefits Trust saw the value of its assets drop about 11 percent to $52.4 billion in 2011 while the S&P 500 index was flat.
Meanwhile, the trust's benefit obligation rose 8 percent to $85.3 billion, an amount that is about $5 billion more than what U.S. taxpayers spent to prevent the collapse of General Motors Co, Chrysler Group LLC and Ally Financial during the financial crisis three years ago.
The trust managed benefits for 824,000 retirees from affiliated with the United Auto Workers union in 2011.
http://news.yahoo.com/uaw-retiree-trust-reports-larger-shortfall-2011-filing-210- 359960--finance.html
Send me a message when the game is up for the telecom oligopoly. As it stands now, your grandchildren will be dealing with a similar setup.
I don't mean cutting off China. China doesn't get aid, other than our commercial/mercantile submission. I mean cutting off Israel, cutting off the defense of Europe and eastern Asia, et al. Those are all the ones feeding at the American trough, and often they turn right around and sneer, or even openly work against the US. We aid our competition who turns around and spits on us. Road to ruin.
Regarding the middle east, they might be socially backwards, but are they really having the same impact as China?
I think we're in complete agreement that the problems at GM are shared by both plenty of incompetent management as well as a greedy union.
Send me a message when the game is up for the telecom oligopoly. As it stands now, your grandchildren will be dealing with a similar setup.
I hope I can find this message and we're both on the board when this happens - I give the current situation no more than 10 years max, probably a lot less.
don't mean cutting off China. China doesn't get aid, other than our commercial/mercantile submission. I mean cutting off Israel, cutting off the defense of Europe and eastern Asia, et al. Those are all the ones feeding at the American trough, and often they turn right around and sneer, or even openly work against the US. We aid our competition who turns around and spits on us. Road to ruin.
We're largely in agreement at this one, too. That's where I part with the neocons. All the "war on terror" has given us is millions more who hate us.
Regarding the middle east, they might be socially backwards, but are they really having the same impact as China?
Maybe not economically, but certainly politically.
But they sure like our UAW built SUVs. Perhaps GM's strategy is truly a long term one to feed that market? :P :surprise:
The profit-based war on terror is only part of it. My taxes support foreign policy that subsidizes the ability of competing nations to develop infrastructure far superior to what most Americans can enjoy - unless they travel. Politics are economics, and our one-sided modern ideal of "free trade" (being without forethought of conequences) has created a huge mess for both.
GM does seem to have high acceptance in some regions that often otherwise do not like the US. Hmm :shades:
Are there laws against a second cable company offering you service? I have Cox way out in a rural area. I can also get AT&T TV. Cox offers a good package with phone, hi speed internet and Cable TV. You can stick up a dish most places and get TV. One service is free after the dish is installed. Has 70 live feed stations. Just heard about it this morning. You can get English channels for news from Israel, Al Jazeera, Russian News, etc. Plus you can get TV on your Smartphone from what I hear.
Not all communications are free. Verizon pays there techs out here very good. Not hard to break into six figures with a little OT. Cox uses a lot of subcontractors and pays very poorly.
You don't think having a choice of half dozen wireless providers, POTS (Verizon land line), cable/FIOS, or VOIP is better and more open than fifty years ago when you could buy any handset you wanted so long as it was black and made by Western Electric?
Remember when IBM virtually owned the marker for big iron main frame computers?
Remember when Cray computers were the go-to company for high performance scientific computers?
Remember when the D3 owned the US market for automobiles?
Energy, or at least energy delivery, probably is going to always end up by being a regulated monopoly, just because of the infrastructure issues involved.
Why do you think medical care is a controlled market?
Healthcare is a totally different animal that I'm not going to get into. Between fed/state government regulation and agencies and private industry control it's a mess.
I wonder what dental braces cost in other first world countries. My 14 year old daughter is getting them in January and it's going to cost about $5k with a 10% cash discount. Insurance will only pay $1,500 lifetime per person. Sucks the government cut health savings accounts to only $2,500, oh well.
That's my case exactly. I am considering using my cable provider just for internet, going with an outside antenna for OTA TV reception, and using our cell phones instead of the land line.
Healthcare is a totally different animal that I'm not going to get into. Between fed/state government regulation and agencies and private industry control it's a mess.
Agree that it's a mess. But in addition to the hospital ER or the doctor's office, there are now mini clinics in Wal Marts and standalone to take care of simple, straightforward conditions.
My 14 year old daughter is getting them in January and it's going to cost about $5k with a 10% cash discount
Yeah, braces have always been sky high. Seems to me they were like $2500 15 or so years ago when my kids were needing them. Our dental insurance picked up part of the tab, something like 30% IIRC.
OK - so that's a combination of federal as well as state benefits. I doubt anyone on "welfare" alone would be pulling in $3200 a month.
"While at Michigan State, he was known as a rabble rouser and was a ring leader in one of the first student riots in the United States. The UAW was trying to shut down East Lansing businesses and restaurants. Bart led several thousand students in a revolt against the union, blocking the union leaders from entering East Lansing. The group threw the Union bosses into the Red Cedar River and kept East Lansing open." (Traverse City Record-Eagle)
Actually you can go antenna and OTA.
The issue there is that the building owner (I presume you rent) owns the wires inside the building. The building owner has a contract with Comcast that probably pays him a few bucks every month for the exclusive. It's a common situation everywhere. Private landowner gets to make the rules for his land.
Now I own my own home and have 3 telecom/cable providers on the pole across the street to choose from.
People in 1940 could buy many more models of radios than people in 1920, as well. Doesn't mean anything was really more open.
What choices are there in medical, really? All seem to have more or less the same pricing outcome. You can just either do it now or wait.
Monopolies are far from dead. This is one hell of a free market, maybe only called so by those who don't have to work with it.
We did that just today - took all of the equipment to Comcast. Got a nice antenna, and splurged on a Tivo. Home phone was nothing but a nuisance. The decision was made once all of our sign-up discounts expired, and our monthly bill was $200 - an that's without any premium channels! High-speed internet only took us down to ~$65. That's more like it.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
1 Mbps - $32
8 Mbps - $45
20 Mbps - $55
40 Mbps - $70
I'm paying around $140/mo for the 8 Mbps inet service, unlimited phone, and TV (but no HD). It's gone up $40 since we first got it 2 years ago.
Currently am paying $105/mo or so for internet, cable tv with one HD DVR and HD service. We have expanded channels with the likes of History, ESPN, Speed etc, and also Encore and some other premium channel I don't watch but is basically thrown in with our 2 year reduced rate which I signed a 2 year agreement.
We dropped the land line as we have 4 people with 5 cell phones.
LOL, them and telemarketers. Seemed anytime the home phone rang it was someone wanting to sell me something or guilt me into donating money.
My daughters do a good enough job as it is;)
Why not get the very highly rated Nexus 7 tablet for $199 instead if you don't need a phone?
There were pros and cons to that. Because of that REGULATED monopoly technology was slow to roll out. 50 years ago they were touting the videophone at the Chicago Worlds fair. Ma Bell never introduced that to the general public. Now we have Skype for example.
However, Ma Bell was an innovator. Bell Labs had to have THE MOST comprehensive set of scientists and engineers. THEY brought us the quartz movement, the transistor (which is the basis of ALL integrated circuits), and the Laser. All because of a guaranteed stream of money.
We all know about how reliable vacuum tubes were (LOL). That's why we have the transistor. Somebody was selling a Western Electric vacuum tube on evil-bay. They wanted over 4800 bucks for it. As I read about this particular tube, it turns out is was a replacement tube for the signal repeaters in the Transcontinental Phone Cable. The cable was in service for over 25 yrs, with repeaters every 30,000 feet. Its 4000 miles from here to Europe. Hundreds of these tubes were in service, and NOT EVEN ONE burnt out. EVER.
You have to go with the $299 unit and it only works on AT&T, which I am not at all fond of. I had a Kindle Fire and not sure I like that size. No big rush, I would not buy anything until the Christmas rush is past. The Nexus on Verizon would be a possibility. Or the iPad Mini, though I don't like Apple.