United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

fintail

Or corporate behavior in pretty much every state.

He's in the right place for dirty money and dodging accountability.

gagrice

It would be hard to outdo the union behavior in CA. Perhaps only outdone by MI.

Private unions in CA are not nearly as radical as in Michigan. It is the Public employees unions in CA that control the elections. The last CA strike of any consequence was the grocers. And they ended up with less after 3 months. That took the wind out of their sails. Our problem is our legislature and governor. They have this false belief that people will pay the price for this weather no matter how high it goes.

gagrice

And you'll end up reaping more out of SS/MC than my generation, I fear

If I live to a ripe old age you are more than likely correct. Something has to be done to reign in SS and MC. I think it would be better now than later. I will pay more if it can become stable for future generations. I just don't think those sorts of social programs have a long lifespan. Not when you let every tom, dick and jose in without paying for it.

tlong

He's in the right place for dirty money and dodging accountability.

See! It's Switzerland's fault, I tell you! :P

gagrice

King is probably hauling UAW gold to stash in the Swiss bank. Or maybe he is just an avid skier using the perks while they still exist.

imidazol97

>The bottom line, according to multiple sources close to the situation, is that Prop 2's smackdown by voters statewide made right to work a political certainty in the state capital of the UAW's home.

I see it as the battle of the PACs. The yelling over the Citizens United allowing money on the conservative side to have PACs was only because the other side had the labor unions and the outside US money PACs. They now had competition. So the labor unions (public and private) lost in MI because the other side actually has a voice now with which to campaign. They did and the labor unions lost. It's amusing how big money is okay when it was all labor unions and the liberal backers.

RTW was floated in Ohio but decided against its being of great benefit to the business in the state. Ohio already has some initiatives working from the republican governor side to bring businesses in. It I had a magic crystal ball, I would expect RTW to be floated again in a year in Ohio; the unions and libs will spend a fortune against the idea; and they will have drained their huge coffers of money that they might have been spending for the 2014 election in Ohio and DC ahead of the campaign season. That's what happened with the Issue 2 (Senate Bill 5) about union rights in Ohio--lots of money spent by Big Labor.

imidazol97

>Something has to be done to rein in SS and MC.

The idea of the free gravy train being cancelled has been put off for at least 4 years. Everyone gets SSI that's smart enough to know you get an attorney first or as soon as the first rejection letter comes. A friend of mine did just that for a pain in the neck that prevented them from working...

As for SS and MC, keeping the interest rates low has hurt older folks who have investment cash more than they'll benefit from continuing the huge drain on SS and MC for 4 more years. They've been snookered for the last 4 years with the low interest rates: if the interest rates were real on our bills and bonds, we would spend everything paying the interest on the national debt.

The unions were prime in support for the current situation. How will they react as the house of cards begins to crumble. The UAW in MI has to be doing flips over the idea of a good fight, but I see it as a losing fight for them.

gagrice

You have pointed out the "catch 22". I remember my uncle complaining when the interest rates of T-bills plummeted during the Reagan years. Now interest is ridiculously low. Problem only a few can take advantage of it. SSI is at epidemic levels. Along with Medicaid. And Obamacare will make it even worse.

On Ohio RTW, they should sit back and see how it works for MI. Though I think the militant UAW will still scare off many businesses in spite of RTW. I think Indiana played it much better. They established RTW for public employees in 1995. So RTW for private Unions was not such a big deal. And with dozens of companies moving into Indiana it looks like the right thing to do.

imidazol97

The glitch in the union thing in MI is that they exempted police and firefighters from some of the regulations applicable to other public employees. Not fair. In Ohio we're paying 29% (or it may be 25%) of the police/fire salary to their pension plan as the employer contriburtion along with their own payment out of their check. Somehow, I think they're overpaid and over coddled. Work 20 years and retire at a high pension, and then for many get reemployed again the public sector. And being coddled in MI in treatment.

I don't know about MI's rules, but in Ohio public employees did not have to join the union. That was true in schools where my wife was for 30.5 years, and I believe it to be true for the other groups. If the negoatiated agreement mandated, they did have to pay a service fee for their benefitting from the negotiations if they didn't join the union, but that was true only in some school districts.

This is all going to be highly politicized as the next election comes up with the unions, and the UAW being the underdawg and using a lot of gruff talk. I also see lots of money being spent on the union power retention instead of being available for the 2014 election.

gagrice

The glitch in the union thing in MI is that they exempted police and firefighters from some of the regulations applicable to other public employees. Not fair.

That is a travesty. Indiana did not make that blunder. Wisconsin favored the Cops and firefighters as well in the laws they passed. Detroit is going bankrupt because they cannot afford the over the top cops. It was the cops in Vallejo CA, that forced the city into BK. Same for Stockton and San Bernardino.

stever

I see it as the battle of the PACs. The yelling over the Citizens United allowing money on the conservative side to have PACs was only because the other side had the labor unions and the outside US money PACs. They now had competition. So the labor unions (public and private) lost in MI because the other side actually has a voice now with which to campaign. They did and the labor unions lost. It's amusing how big money is okay when it was all labor unions and the liberal backers.

Money talks but the last national election showed that feet on the ground can talk louder.

Prop 2 shows you need to have something reasonable to talk about though. Lots of voters otherwise sympathetic to unions recognized over-reaching when they saw it.

gagrice

Prop 2 shows you need to have something reasonable to talk about though. Lots of voters otherwise sympathetic to unions recognized over-reaching when they saw it.

Too bad the voters of CA are so dull witted this last election.

imidazol97

>Prop 2 shows you need to have something reasonable to talk about though. Lots of voters otherwise sympathetic to unions recognized over-reaching

Agree.

>the last national election showed that feet on the ground can talk louder.

Lots of things that were illegal were done, in Ohio at least, during that campaign. But more germain to this topic is that lots of the money for the on-the-ground push was provided by unions bypassing the usual records. That is essentially a PAC unbridled and unhindered by any rules. The money just goes directly to the purpose.

As I said, watch for the gold ring: the money and how it has to flow during 2013. I expect lots of push for RTW and other clamps on unions to reduce the legal and illegal movement of money from the Union PAC type funds during 2014. Watch the gold ring: do not let your eyes be distracted by other screaming. Gold ring.

fintail

So IN doesn't have insane public sector pensions and perks for some sacred cow jobs? I find that hard to imagine, just because they made union membership optional.

gagrice

So IN doesn't have insane public sector pensions and perks for some sacred cow jobs? I find that hard to imagine, just because they made union membership optional.

Why would you think they are over compensated? Not every state is corrupt to the core like CA. I looked up their payscales and saw nothing out of line. Nothing like Prison doctors making $800k per year or state run universities paying coaches $2 million plus. Indiana has the lowest per household to fully fund public pensions in the US. CA or WA should be so well run.

http://www.in.gov/itp/files/Pension_Overview_May_2012_%28ITP%29.pdf

iluvmysephia1

I hear the Boeing union is talking strike again, too.

What else is new? Boeing workers are some of the most spoiled in the nation yet all we would do would be complain about Alan Mullaly's salary, complain about all of the work we had ta do, complain about all of the overtime we had ta do, on and on ad naseum.

Our record-breaking white collar strike in the spring of 2000 wasn't even necessary. The first offer to us beat the 2nd offer, that after a 45-day long strike. What a joke. Why strike? Ta show Boeing management we had the kahunies ta do it, that's why. So what? What does that prove?

I don't know who's being more ridiculous, The Boeing Co. management or the spoiled SPEEA and IAM workers. We were overpaid babies. Glad to be thrown into a different type of playpen now.

It's still a playpen but the toys we play with are very different.

fintail

Well run, but it's not like you or I could receive that return with our retirement contributions. That's the key. Nice that they kept it funded anyway.

srs_49

But, according to the report Gary provided the link to, even Indiana is assuming high returns on investments to meet its pension obligations.

The one chart stated that Indiana is assuming less than 10% yield. While that's a lot more reasonable than those states that are assuming yield greater than 17%, many investment professionals feel that over then next 10 or 20 years, even 7.5% yields (on average) are going to be difficult to come by.

gagrice

Too many pension plans like the UAW plan are based on current workers paying retirees benefits. I think the CA state plan was based on 8% return which is really wishful thinking in this market. The GM UAW pension plan is underfunded by $25 billion as of last June. There are almost 10 retirees to every current worker. The tax payers kicked in $20 billion that is a gift to the UAW retirees. How much longer will we subsidize their pension plan?

The second insurmountable obstacle to winning Christmas bonuses for retirees is the current retiree to active member ratio. The current active UAW membership at GM, for example, is 48,000 members to 405,000 UAW GM retirees, making it nearly a 10-to-1 ratio of retirees to current working members.

http://www.uaw.org/articles/uaw-statement-retirees-and-2011-big-three-negotiatio- ns

imidazol97

>How much longer will we subsidize their pension plan?

Looks to me the unions have embedded themselves as the 5th arm of government: Executive, House & Senate, Judiciary, MSM, and the Unions.

gagrice

Will the UAW ever get a reality check?? We lost our health care portion of retirement in the 1990s. Our Teamster pension plan could see it was not sustainable and dumped it. Lots of early retirees were ticked off. But trying to maintain sound financials was more important than making everyone happy. They soon after that ended COL increases. Thankfully I get the same thing today in my pension as I did when I retired in 2006. As the ratio of workers to retirees decreases I am hoping they don't make cuts in our benefits. Up until the economy tanked in 2008 they would give an extra check in December if the fund had a great year in the market. Last one handed out was 2005 the year before I retired. They have raised the early retirement age as well. A well run pension has to go with reality of the times. If a pension fund can make 5% they are doing well in this market.

imidazol97

You didn't agree or disagree with my assessment that the unions have gained control the last 5 years along with the MSM. Any comments in how the UAW has been treated like a favored child?

stever

treated like a favored child?

Compared, say, to the corporations hiring them?

'Sandy Bill' Becomes Mini Auto Bailout (Weekly Standard)

gagrice

There is NO doubt your assessment was dead on. From the moment the process started to bail out GM, it was the UAW with their hands out in front. And Obama fell over himself with both GM and C to put the UAW first in line. Going directly against the Constitution in the process meant nothing to him. Which we may end up paying for in the end. As that whole scam denying the bond holders is still in court last I researched.

Ask GM Bondholders and Delphi Retirees About Obama's 'Economic Patriotism'

http://nlpc.org/stories/2012/10/04/ask-gm-bondholders-and-delphi-retirees-about-- economic-patriotism

gagrice

I don't see a problem with replacing Federal property lost in Sandy. They have extended the Pork far beyond the damage caused by Sandy. Which will likely hold up funds for those suffering the most.

$2 million to repair roof damage at Smithsonian buildings in Washington that pre-dates the storm; $4 million to repair sand berms and dunes at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida; and $41 million for clean-up and repairs at eight military bases along the storm’s path, including Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

slorenzen

"If a pension fund can make 5% they are doing well in this market. "

When you factor in the declining value of the US dollar, partly due to the Fed printers going crazy, 5% is a joke...

http://www.mebanefaber.com/2010/11/17/the-dollar-and-purchasing-power/

:sick:

gagrice

I agree that at 5% it will barely keep up with the decline in the value of the dollar. Most pension fund managers have been overly optimistic in their projections. A person administering his own 401k has to be darn lucky to keep up with inflation. My 401k/IRA is worth just what it was when I retired in 2006. I should have bailed out of the market in late 2007. Instead I rode it out and have barely recovered. I sold almost all of my equities a few weeks ago on the advice of my wife's financial adviser. So if the market tanks over the fiscal cliff I will not go with it.

srs_49

I should have bailed out of the market in late 2007.

Yep. And I should have bought Intel back in the mid 70's, Dell in the 1980's, and Apple in the 90's :sick: .

gagrice

Highest-Paid California Trooper Is Chief Banking $484,000

California Highway Patrol division chief Jeff Talbott retired last year as the best-paid officer in the 12 most-populous U.S. states, collecting $483,581 in salary, pension and other compensation.

Union-negotiated benefits, coupled with overtime that can exceed regular pay and lax enforcement of limits on accumulating unused vacation, allow some troopers to double their annual earnings and retire as young as age 50. The payments they get are unmatched by those elsewhere, according to data compiled by Bloomberg on 1.4 million employees of the 12 states. Some, like Talbott, go on to second careers.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-17/highest-paid-california-trooper-is-chie- f-banking-484-000.html

stever

More than 90 percent of Culinary's 60,000 predominantly immigrant workers opt to be dues-paying members, even though Nevada law says they cannot be forced to pay unions for their services.

Right-to-work Nevada a rare bright spot for labor (Detroit News)

imidazol97

>More than 90 percent of Culinary's 60,000 predominantly immigrant

I suspect there's a story behind that fact.

I paid dues to a political party in power in Indiana when I was working on the State Highway Department to help pay for college. We were just told we had to pay each paycheck by stopping to see the payclerk in the garage building. She handled getting the money to the party in power at the time. I didn't ask what happened if one of us "chose" not to pay. :sick:

andre1969

Hell, if I had maxed out my HELOC back in early 2005 and put it all in Apple, it would be worth almost $2M today, AND I'd be getting about $40K+ per year in dividends.

The old shoulda-coulda-woulda...

gagrice

berri

It used to be all George W's fault, not it's all Obama's. Seriously folks, has there been a president that any one liked?

stever

Walter Reuther held the office for about 25 years.

gagrice

Jesse Carr headed up the Alaska Teamsters for 28 years, until his untimely death at 59 years of age.

I think the last President that people across the board liked was Reagan. I liked Bush as a human being far more than Obama or Clinton. Clinton was a better President.

stever

Iran-Contra fixed that. More likeable than the astrologist though. :shades:

Hoffa lasted a long time too, until his conviction in Chattanooga. He was sprung by Nixon. Should have laid low; instead he was laid low.

imidazol97

>instead he was laid low.

Did they ever find a body?

stever

Not yet, but Geraldo Rivera is still looking.

marsha7

in Detroit under which Hoffa is supposedly buried...part of I-94, part of I-96, part of the foundation of the Renaissance Center, etc, etc...

I would bet on cement overshoes at the bottom of the Detroit River, communing with the fishes...:):):)

berri

I'd say he's a pothole now because the concrete should have taken care of most of the remains over time.

gagrice

The manner, amount, and timing of the sales under the plan are dependent upon a number of factors." Assuming a price in the $27.50 range, this implies a nearly 50% loss on the government's breakeven price of $54. So much for the "profit" spin. One hopes all those Union votes were well worth the now booked $40+ billion cost to all taxpayers.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-19/gm-buys-back-200mm-shares-us-government- -uncle-sam-divest-remaining-stake-50-loss

imidazol97

>One hopes all those Union votes were well worth the now booked $40+ billion cost to all taxpayers.

If anyone didn't expect this kind of quid pro quo for the various unions and other supporters, they don't understand the politics this administration has been playing all along. This president plays to the low information voter.

The good thing is that soon all the government shares will have been sold: the posters can quit kvetching about "government" motors, e.g., when they give a reason for disliking GM.

stever

Low information voters like Alan Mulally, lol.

gagrice

You are not saying Mulally endorsed Obama are you? What could Ford do with the $40 billion wasted on GM? They already build and sell better hybrids than GM. Better trucks than GM. And more modern factories than GM, thanks to the UAW work rules forcing Ford to build in other countries.

stever

Mulally endorsed the bailout. So you could say he endorsed the auto policies of both Bush II and Obama.

What could Ford do with the $40 billion wasted on GM?

Mm, dunno, funded four months of the war in Afghanistan? (costofwar.com)

gagrice

If not for the UAW Ford could have replaced all their aging factories in the USA with state of the art factories like the one in Brazil. Instead we have, according to Rocky, the same old 50 year old GM factories and very little to show for it. We are carrying the 800,000 GM retirees with their gold plated HC plan for another few years. They should have been dumped onto PBGC like US Steel industry retirees. And saved US about $50 billion give or take.

PS
I agree on getting out of Afghanistan NOW. That would save US a cool $100 billion per year right there and nothing would change.

fintail

Along with old factories, maybe replace some of those aging execs with some who understand that big and cheap isn't what makes cars desirable in 2012, as well. The MB factory I visited last month, albeit stocked with modern equipment, was definitely not a new build - but the product is still sought.

berri

The good thing is that soon all the government shares will have been sold: the posters can quit kvetching about "government" motors, e.g., when they give a reason for disliking GM

I always got a kick out of the old days when Ford guys and Chevy guys would argue, usually totally emotional with no basis in fact. But it was fun. I guess today maybe it's more like D3 vs Import guys.

imidazol97

It would have been nice if GM had been blessed with a managed bankruptcy where they negated the union contracts and started over with renegotiated pay scales in the US. Instead we got the unions used as political proxies.

And without the US government involvement, they probably would have made different decisions about the size of the Malibu replacement. I would hope they might have invested more into it to make it slightly larger and make it even more competitive against the other mid-sizers.

The US involvement has been a downer. But now they actually need more cash from the US to enable better research and development of new models still in the pipeline.