" The South invaded the North first in the Civil War"...actually, you realize that the war is mis-named as the Civil War...it is more correctly the War Between the States, or, if you come from the South, the War of Northern Aggression...a civil war is when 2 factions are fighting to control one government...since the South seceded and set up their own government, they were not fighting to take control of Wash, DC...they wanted to be a separate nation with a totally separate government...so it was not really a "civil war" even though every history book calls it that...:)
marsha7 - did I learn this in Edmonds School District No.15? (where I grew up-it is about 15 miles north of Seattle) I don't think so. Yet, strangely, it seems I've heard your more correct version before. The idea of the South seceding to form their own government still sounds odd...and it reminds me of those controlling...I...I mean living in the Rebublic of Tejas...I mean the Republic of Texas.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Maybe politicians are feeling so powerless to do anything about BIG problems that they butt into areas where they have no business.
I thought the governor and state legislators threatening financial repercussions was way out of line. Did Corker have inside information as to what would happen with the CUV project? Only time will tell. I don't really believe the VW management in TN were looking forward to a relationship with the UAW. I think they were just following orders from Germany. They have a good working relationship with the Union and thought it was possible in the USA. I think 2015 will be the telling year for the UAW and the D3. I hear rumblings from the rank and file, that the next contract will not be so easy for the D3 with a new union president in place. The two tier system has to go. They also think they can get a pension plan like the one given up. I think they are dreaming. Defined pensions are all but history unless you have the tax payers footing the bill.
Probably because many of the big problems stem from actions and desires of the largest contributors to the politicians.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Maybe politicians are feeling so powerless to do anything about BIG problems that they butt into areas where they have no business.
Well if everything we do as a country is boiled down to "political reality" then we are truly doomed. I think we've already resigned ourselves to climate change disasters, since we won't ween off oil. I wonder what the next resignation will be in the name of "political realities" (i.e., what do I do to stay in office?). Death of the middle class perhaps?
the state governors are no better than the Federal government. They all seem gutless.
Wheels within wheels. One of the anti-union activists last summer was Don Jackson, former head of VW's Chattanooga plant. From reading a Reuters story in the Economic Times, it sounds like the UAW was getting outgunned in Chattanooga last year while King was off seeking support in the UE.
@gagrice said:
I thought the governor and state legislators threatening financial repercussions was way out of line.
I do too. The problem is after watching all the big money in the last national campaign perform the politics of personal destruction that the Clintons perfected on Gov. Romney and others, I think it's almost perfect to see the UAW blocked by their own kind of political tactics. Even Soros' money couldn't work his magic here.
There's no "Soros money" in this. It was all right-wing money, such as (to name just three of the 5 major organizations) National Right To Work Legal Defense Foundation, Americans for Tax Reform and the Competitive Enterprise Institute.
VW was in favor looking at things through German eyes, where everything is unionized, and there's still an overall first world standard of living, and no faux capitalists wanting to break down the system that built them.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
There's no "Soros money" in this. It was all right-wing money, such as (to name just three of the 5 major organizations) National Right To Work Legal Defense Foundation, Americans for Tax Reform and the Competitive Enterprise Institute.
Never say "never." Soros' money, even though he's not able to vote here, is behind lots of the Dem causes, Secretary of State Project, money to colleges who were going to "help" the newsrooms decide what they should give to the people as news project. I really find it hard to believe there's no money pushing to help the UAW build numbers in the New South.
NAH. Not buying that. The small effect that a "union household" has on swaying votes for Democrats is easily offset by the geography of the South. This is why we have the interesting phenomenon of working class voters in the South apparently voting against their own best interests (for job security).
As a "Dems cause" it would have been an utter waste of money to try and directly counter the lop-sided voting in that geographical area; in other words, union people do not vote Democratic down there anyway. Geography and ethnicity determine how union members vote. This is why the UAW looked for outside help from the EU I think.
. The "Secretary of State" project is a PAC that was created to counter the political hijinks in Florida politics in the year 2000. It was a response PAC, not some evil machination by an invisible demigod. That's how it got its name, from Secy of State Katherine Harris.
I think the UAW should have been prepared for the negative response by conservatives, RTW and GOP politicians. The UAW has never made it a secret they hate all things Republican. I doubt they have ever backed anything but a Democrat. So why should Republicans let them steamroll into town without putting up a fight? If I am the GOP governor or Senator, it is a given the UAW will be the enemy come election time. As long as Unions continue to be partisan operatives for the Democrats, I think all is fair in love and politics. I believe Public Employee Unions should be Apolitical by law. Or the GOP tax payers should not have to pay for their Wages, pensions and Health Care. I hate seeing my taxes dollars filtered through the Public Employee Unions into the coffers of the Democrats. The UAW was given the best chance they are going to get at VW and they did not convince a majority they could make life better. They need to stop their WHINING!!
I don't think that holds true in a southern state at all. There is no evidence to suggest that union families in southern states vote Democratic. What we have here is far less subtle. The state GOP doesn't want the UAW to raise the standard of living to the point where industry will look elsewhere to build cars. Simple as that. So you cast the UAW as the devil who will take your job. Bingo. Even at that crude level, the vote almost passed. It was very close.
On the gubernatorial level, Tennessee was solid Blue until 1975 when a Republican was elected Governor. Then the infamous Ray Blanton, a Democrat, had a term (and he also enjoy a prison term lol). The next five governors have swapped between the parties - out of the last 8 governors, the parties have had four each. The congressional delegation is mostly Red, just two of the 11 are Dems.
I think the mayoral race in Chattanooga is supposed to be non-partisan, but the current mayor is a Dem. Even more amazing, he graduated from the U of Chicago Law School.
Politics makes for those strange bedfellows as you mentioned Shifty, and I'm sure there's lots of union members everywhere who don't vote a straight Democratic ticket.
(btw, after Blanton got out of prison, he worked for a Ford dealer for a while. Insert your own joke).
I don't think it has anything to do with how Union members vote. It has to do with the Millions the Unions spend on political campaigns. Some laws make it illegal to give directly to a candidate from the Union Treasury. However they can donate to an education fund, which then promotes through various means their Democrat agenda. So yes you can be a Republican and vote that way and still belong to a Union. I know as I was in several knock down PAC meetings in my Teamster local back in the early 1970s. If you are in a closed shop Union, (Non RTW) you are entitled to get back the portion of your dues used to promote the Democrat party.
If you are an employee in one of the twenty-eight non-right-to-work states1, you may be forced to join a union and contribute part of your pay as union dues. Dues collected by your union are typically split two ways. One part of these dues, known as an “Agency Fee,” is used to cover the union’s administrative costs. The other part is called a “Political Fee” which is used to advance the union’s political, social and economic agendas. These imposed fees are used to support lobbying activities, make donations to political candidates, purchase advertising space and air time, pay for organizing activities targeted at other employers, and are given to other groups, such as ACORN, that promise to push the union’s liberal issues, however creatively. -
@gagrice said: Dues collected by your union are typically split two ways. One part of these dues, known as an “Agency Fee,” is used to cover the union’s administrative costs. The other part is called a “Political Fee” which is used to advance the union’s political, social and economic agendas. These imposed fees are used to support lobbying activities, make donations to political candidates, purchase advertising space and air time, pay for organizing activities targeted at other employers, and are given to other groups, such as ACORN, that promise to push the union’s liberal issues, however creatively.
Lots of union support that would appear to have been outside the trackable campaign support was in Ohio for the last election. The time that seemed to be donated by many union members should be counted as donations. The things on which "free" money was spent, some of which appears to have been for not legal methods of pursuing votes, also should be noted. It's really humorous to hear folks get all exorcised about the Citizens United decision allowing businesses to have donations for agendas while the unions have had free reign over spending as big businesses with an agenda for decades. I love hearing the complaints about money from the Koch brothers from the unions and Soros-supported crowds.
When Moonbeam was running for governor last go around I got calls almost on a daily basis from different pubic employee Union members asking for my support. Meg Whitman out spent Brown by a 2 and a half times. And still lost. The personal time Union members spend canvassing by phone or door to door is invaluable. Not sure how you would put a dollar figure on it. Unless it was based on their outrageous salaries in CA.
Further evidence the UAW are not concerned about the workers only the numbers. This is just sour grapes. They had a great shot and blew it.
Appealing Volkswagen vote won't be easy for UAW
DETROIT -- The United Auto Workers union faces a high legal hurdle in appealing its defeat at Volkswagen's Tennessee plant.
Citing public statements by Republican U.S. Sen. Bob Corker and other Tennessee politicians, the UAW asked the National Labor Relations Board to set aside the results and conduct a new election.
Corker — who was mayor of Chattanooga before his election to the Senate in 2006 — responded less than two hours later.
"Unfortunately, I have to assume that today's action may slow down Volkswagen's final discussions on the new SUV line," Corker said in a statement. "The UAW is only interested in its own survival and not the interests of the great employees at Chattanooga's Volkswagen facility nor the company for which they work."
Well "Moonbeam" is doing very well these days, so maybe some GOP governors should order whatever he's having, to paraphrase Lincoln's comment when people complained to him that General Grant was drinking too much.
On the Gallup Well Being Index, the American Southeast is consistently at the bottom of the heap. For that reason alone, I predict a resurgence of unions in that part of the country--either that, or a mass migration, which is also possible.
Like it or hate it, California is an economic powerhouse and a hotbed of new ideas.
It is interesting to match up the Gallup Well Being Index with the % of workers who are unionized, state by state. Not sure what conclusions can be made though, as numbers are skewed by ethnicity and by how many of that % are public service workers (public service workers unionize at a far greater rate than private industry).
One stat that surprised me was that Alaska and Hawaii are heavily unionized, moreso than California.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Well "Moonbeam" is doing very well these days, so maybe some GOP governors should order whatever he's having, to paraphrase Lincoln's comment when people complained to him that General Grant was drinking too much.
On the Gallup Well Being Index, the American Southeast is consistently at the bottom of the heap. For that reason alone, I predict a resurgence of unions in that part of the country--either that, or a mass migration, which is also possible.
Look around the state of CA. Trade Unions have been decimated by illegals working for cash. The only Unions doing well are Public Employee Unions, and a few professional unions like nurses. Along with Domestics and Janitors. If you are a Union Carpenter, electrician, plumber, Glazier, etc you are screwed here. Even stimulus jobs around here have been subcontracted to rag tag contractors. Easy to spot when they are driving trucks with Baja plates and the workers don't even have hard hats. If CA with the highest percentage of poverty in the USA is what you call well run..... I guess we will continue to disagree. Thankfully housing is almost back to 2006 levels and I will get back most of my investment on my way to a better run state.
You're in the very southern part of the state, which from your window does not have the same view as a window in Silicon Valley or the SF Bay Area. I'm sure the man in West Virginia has a very different view of the USA than the man in Iowa.
Nonetheless, California has a very high percentage of workers who are union, as of 2013 statistics. It also ranks high on Gallup's Well Being survey, which monitors many different parameters (education, health, employment conditions (aha!), etc.)
So I'd say the union is here to stay in CA. It remains a place of opportunity, which means a place of possibilities.
In my view, any state of the union that does not follow California's lead in high tech, in labor relations, and in governance, is going to be left far far behind. (which they may wish to do, and god bless 'em).
Labor relations doesn't mean following an old outdated model, by the way, in the same way that the US Navy doesn't build battleships to rule the seas anymore.
No automaker is going anywhere trying to live in 1930, nor in the 1970s.
Creativity rewards people, but regression to some idealized, non-existent past will be punished in the 21st century IMO.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
the American Southeast is consistently at the bottom of the heap.
Now you know why I moved.
Funny how people wind up back living at the bottom of the heap years later though. Not that the UP isn't fun in it's own way, even if pro-union sentiments run high.
I don't think many people choose to live in those places. Now really, some states in the SE have an infant mortality rate worse than Botswana...what young family in their right minds would move there? KY isn't that bad, but it's pretty near the bottom of the Well Being Heap--if you value the things that Gallup's list monitors, I mean.
Naturally, income level affects Well Being--not consistently across the 50 states, but it's certainly a strong indicator.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I don't think many people choose to live in those places.
TN & Ky have several cities that rank at the top of good places to retire. TN ranks 4th with a few other states on getting kids through High School. CA does not rank real high. States like Oregon are at the bottom of the heap. Strong Union states like Michigan are not doing that well on education either.
Bowling Green has the Creme de la Creme of UAW jobs building Corvettes. KY has 18 UAW locals. One of the places I am looking at is very close to Bowling Green. Beautiful rolling hills with plenty of water and rain. Cheap electricity 1/6th the price per KWH of San Diego. CA is no place for the Middle classes unless you have a cushy government job, Very High tech or born with the big bucks.
Maybe buying a house as an investment is part of the problem? If we want to talk about coddled and subsidized industries, anything connected to housing from mortgage brokers to developers to builders to realtors must be included too. It's a pretty intense cabal. Buy a house for shelter.
Had you bought in some southern areas, your values might never recover. It's that way in many actual cities in the SE, especially ATL, where prices will likely never return to inflation-adjusted highs, never as in never ever. And then you'll have to listen to she who must be pleased complain about humidity and freak winter storms - you're in CA for the weather and because of her urging, right?
The union skilled trades topic is a good one - competition enabled both by greybeard save the world bleeding hearts who want to let everyone in, and the sinister conservative "job creators" who virtually own the building trades, and love to employ illegal cheap labor while feigning ignorance.
It is the fat cat Silicon Valley bunch wanting to get rid of the poor parts of the state. South CA would probably be ok as long as the Navy stays in San Diego. It will do nothing to fix the real problem of too many people and not enough water. Silicon Valley with 50 millionaires or more per square mile are currently subsidizing places in the depressed areas of the state. The Central Valley is running close to 30% unemployment with the Agriculture all but shut down by lack of water. They are trying to protect some goofy little smelt. So the whole USA will be paying more for fresh fruit and veggies. While all the workers sit on welfare roles adding to the 23% under the poverty level. Farm workers Unions are not doing well with few crops.
Me neither. Florida either, except maybe parts of the panhandle. Border states.
In the letters section:
"Now we are being told that as King leaves office this spring, the UAW “leaders” will vote on a 25 percent dues increase on it’s members. That might be the last straw for many UAW members, like myself, who will be able to leave the union at the expiration of the current contract in September 2015."
Point of interest: were UAW and other union workers in MI not paying tax on their retirement income from the UAW's fund? I came across the retirement tax by the governor discussion while looking at Macomb County's newspaper. http://www.michigan.gov/taxes/0,4676,7-238-43513_44135-291038--,00.html
Why wouldn't National Guard retirement be taxed? It's excluded.
I should know this. Michigan recently changed the state income tax on retirement benefits so it's not as good a place to retire now. Benefits used to be exempt but they've started a tiered system based on date of birth. We just made the cut because my DOB is between 1946 & 1952 (my wife gets a small pension).
Don't know why National Guard benefits were excluded.
@Stever@Edmunds said:
I should know this. Michigan recently changed the state income tax on retirement benefits so it's not as good a place to retire now.
There are far better states than MI to retire, Here is a writer in MI that sees the whole UAW thing pretty much as I do. Time for the Unions to look out for the workers and leave the politics alone.
The union might want to spend more time concentrating its efforts on convincing workers, without the attempted intimidation of the black shirts, about the benefits of joining the union, and less time working on ideological and one-sided political (Democrat) efforts because every American worker is concerned about his own pocketbook but not every one agrees with the politics of UAW leadership.
It's just reaction to change rather than pro-action to change. You don't have to be PRO union or ANTI-union; there are all kinds of ideas sitting there right in the middle, waiting to be cultivated and shaped to fit the 21st century economic climate. This is what keeps California so resilient. You take the lead, you try things out. Win some, lose some. The spark of creativity is not some AHA! single moment that you had in your mind all along. The spark of creativity is when someone is trying all sorts of things and then notices ..."hey, THAT'S interesting..."
That "thing" might be, say, incentives that worked in some completely unrelated workforce, or another country. Spain, for instance, is doing some very interesting labor-management experiments.
CA has lost some Union members over the last year. Still too many dragging down the tax payers.
Union membership declined in California last year, the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics says in a new report.
The drop was from 2.5 million in 2012 to 2.4 million in 2013 and from 17.2 percent of the state's 14-plus million public and private workers to 16.4 percent, the BLS said in a nationwide report on union representation.
Other data have shown that the bulk of California's union membership is among school system and state and local government workers.
This piece gives a quick look at the problem I have with public employee unions. I am not as benevolent as the author is. I consider them a cancer on society.
LOOK around the world and the forces are massing. On one side are Californian prison guards, British policemen, French railworkers, Greek civil servants, and teachers just about everywhere. On the other stand the cash-strapped governments of the rich world. Even the mere mention of cuts has brought public-sector workers onto the streets across Europe. When those plans are put into action, expect much worse.
“Industrial relations” are back at the heart of politics—not as an old-fashioned clash between capital and labour, fought out so brutally in the Thatcherite 1980s, but as one between taxpayers and what William Cobbett, one of the great British liberals, used to refer to as “tax eaters”. People in the private sector are only just beginning to understand how much of a banquet public-sector unions have been having at everybody else's expense (see article). In many rich countries wages are on average higher in the state sector, pensions hugely better and jobs far more secure. Even if many individual state workers do magnificent jobs, their unions have blocked reform at every turn. In both America and Europe it is almost as hard to reward an outstanding teacher as it is to sack a useless one.
While union membership has collapsed in the private sector over the past 30 years (from 44% of the workforce to 15% in Britain and from 33% to 15% in America), it has remained buoyant in the public sector. In Britain over half the workers are unionised. In America the figure is now 36% (compared with just 11% in 1960). In much of continental Europe most civil servants belong to unions, albeit ones that straddle the private sector as well. And in public services union power is magnified not just by strikers' ability to shut down monopolies that everyone needs without seeing their employer go bust, but also by their political clout over those employers.
Many Western centre-left parties are union-backed. Britain's Labour Party gets 80% of its funding from public-sector unions (which also, in effect, chose its new leader). Spain's sluggish state reform may be partly explained by its prime minister's union membership. In America teachers alone accounted for a tenth of the delegates to the Democratic convention in 2008. And the unions are more savvy: this time, the defenders of vested interests are not brawny miners spouting Trotsky, but nice middle-class women, often hiding behind useful-sounding groups like the National Education Association (American teachers) or the British Medical Association.
Now stand and fight
Politicians have repeatedly given in, usually sneakily—by swelling pensions, adding yet more holidays or dropping reforms, rather than by increasing pay. This time they have to fight because they are so short of money. But it is crucial that the war with the public-sector unions is won in the right way. For amid all the pain ahead sits a huge opportunity—to redesign government. That means focusing on productivity and improving services, not just cutting costs. (Indeed, in some cases it may entail paying good people more; one reason why Singapore has arguably the best civil service in the world is that it pays some of them more than $2m a year.)
The immediate battle will be over benefits, not pay. Here the issue is parity. Holidays are often absurdly generous, but the real issue is pensions. Too many state workers can retire in their mid-50s on close to full pay. America's states have as much as $5 trillion in unfunded pension liabilities. Historic liabilities have to be honoured (and properly accounted for, rather than hidden off the government's balance-sheet). But there is no excuse for continuing them. Sixty-five should be a minimum age for retirement for people who spend their lives in classrooms and offices; and new civil servants should be switched to defined-contribution pensions.
Another battleground will be the unions' legal privileges. It is not that long since politicians of all persuasions were uncomfortable with the idea of government workers joining unions. (Franklin Roosevelt opposed this on the grounds that public servants had “special relations” and “special obligations” to the government and the rest of the public.) It would be perverse to ban public-sector unions outright at a time when governments are trying to make public services more like private ones. But their right to strike should be more tightly limited; and the rules governing political donations and even unionisation itself should be changed to “opt-in” ones, in which a member decides whether to give or join.
The productivity imperative
Fixing the public sector must not be allowed to degenerate into demonising it. Its health is vital to the health of society as a whole, not least because of its impact on economic growth. Bad teachers mean a lousy talent-pool for employers. Allowing a subway driver to retire at 50 on an artificially inflated pension means less to spend on infrastructure: just look at America's highways and railways. Even if many public services are monopolies, private capital is mobile: it goes to places where government works. With ageing populations needing ever more state help, the left should have as much interest as the right in an efficient state sector (perhaps more so, as it thinks government is the way to right society's ills).
Private-sector productivity has soared in the West over the past quarter-century, even in old industries such as steel and carmaking. Companies have achieved this because they have the freedom to manage—to experiment, to expand successful innovations, to close down bad ones, to promote talented people (see article). Across the public sector, unions have fought all this, most cruelly in education (see article). It can be harder to restructure government than business, but even small productivity gains can bring big savings.
The coming battle should be about delivering better services, not about cutting resources. Focusing on productivity should help politicians redefine the debate. The imminent retirement of the baby-boomers is a chance to hire a new generation of workers with different contracts. Politicians face a choice: push ahead, reform and create jobs in the long term; or give in again, and cut more services and raise more taxes.
And for those that think CA is the place to go, more believe it is the place to leave. 566,986 left in 2012 and 493,641 arrived. Probably across our So border. Wealthy bailing Out poor coming in.
Yearly gain/loss is a meaningless number. California's population growth more than compensates for those that leave--there's a net gain in population of almost 3% from 2010--2013.
If you used the same reasoning for starting a business, you'd say that the place with the highest number of business start-up failures would be the worst place to start up a business---and you'd be wrong.
Look at all the Californians still moving to WA/OR - most places here with jobs and high wages have costs of living and taxes that aren't exactly cheap
@fintail said:
Look at all the Californians still moving to WA/OR - most places here with jobs and high
> wages have costs of living and taxes that aren't exactly cheap
I remember an article from a long while back about all the Californians moving to Utah and Oregon in search of a slower paced life just to complain there wasn't a coffee shop on every corner and a Wal Mart in every strip mall.
"Five Volkswagen workers are trying to challenge an objection filed by the United Auto Workers with the federal government following the UAW's defeat in a unionization vote at the Chattanooga, Tennessee, VW plant, an anti-union group said Tuesday. The five workers said that VW and the UAW colluded to support the union and that if they are not heard, the company and the union will not present a defense of the vote's result"
Comments
Maybe politicians are feeling so powerless to do anything about BIG problems that they butt into areas where they have no business.
" The South invaded the North first in the Civil War"...actually, you realize that the war is mis-named as the Civil War...it is more correctly the War Between the States, or, if you come from the South, the War of Northern Aggression...a civil war is when 2 factions are fighting to control one government...since the South seceded and set up their own government, they were not fighting to take control of Wash, DC...they wanted to be a separate nation with a totally separate government...so it was not really a "civil war" even though every history book calls it that...:)
marsha7 - did I learn this in Edmonds School District No.15? (where I grew up-it is about 15 miles north of Seattle) I don't think so. Yet, strangely, it seems I've heard your more correct version before. The idea of the South seceding to form their own government still sounds odd...and it reminds me of those controlling...I...I mean living in the Rebublic of Tejas...I mean the Republic of Texas.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Maybe we should call it the Breach of Contract War.
I thought the governor and state legislators threatening financial repercussions was way out of line. Did Corker have inside information as to what would happen with the CUV project? Only time will tell. I don't really believe the VW management in TN were looking forward to a relationship with the UAW. I think they were just following orders from Germany. They have a good working relationship with the Union and thought it was possible in the USA. I think 2015 will be the telling year for the UAW and the D3. I hear rumblings from the rank and file, that the next contract will not be so easy for the D3 with a new union president in place. The two tier system has to go. They also think they can get a pension plan like the one given up. I think they are dreaming. Defined pensions are all but history unless you have the tax payers footing the bill.
Probably because many of the big problems stem from actions and desires of the largest contributors to the politicians.
Well if everything we do as a country is boiled down to "political reality" then we are truly doomed. I think we've already resigned ourselves to climate change disasters, since we won't ween off oil. I wonder what the next resignation will be in the name of "political realities" (i.e., what do I do to stay in office?). Death of the middle class perhaps?
the state governors are no better than the Federal government. They all seem gutless.
Wheels within wheels. One of the anti-union activists last summer was Don Jackson, former head of VW's Chattanooga plant. From reading a Reuters story in the Economic Times, it sounds like the UAW was getting outgunned in Chattanooga last year while King was off seeking support in the UE.
Thirteen billboards, one paint-shop worker helped defeat union at Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga
I do too. The problem is after watching all the big money in the last national campaign perform the politics of personal destruction that the Clintons perfected on Gov. Romney and others, I think it's almost perfect to see the UAW blocked by their own kind of political tactics. Even Soros' money couldn't work his magic here.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There's no "Soros money" in this. It was all right-wing money, such as (to name just three of the 5 major organizations) National Right To Work Legal Defense Foundation, Americans for Tax Reform and the Competitive Enterprise Institute.
Even VW was in favor of the union.
I don't think it's that simple.
For example, VW was a sponsor of the Competitive Enterprise Institute annual fundraising dinner in DC last year. (washingtonpost.com).
The old saw is follow the money. These days, you can't easily follow it.
VW was in favor looking at things through German eyes, where everything is unionized, and there's still an overall first world standard of living, and no faux capitalists wanting to break down the system that built them.
Strange bedfellows indeed.
Never say "never." Soros' money, even though he's not able to vote here, is behind lots of the Dem causes, Secretary of State Project, money to colleges who were going to "help" the newsrooms decide what they should give to the people as news project. I really find it hard to believe there's no money pushing to help the UAW build numbers in the New South.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
NAH. Not buying that. The small effect that a "union household" has on swaying votes for Democrats is easily offset by the geography of the South. This is why we have the interesting phenomenon of working class voters in the South apparently voting against their own best interests (for job security).
As a "Dems cause" it would have been an utter waste of money to try and directly counter the lop-sided voting in that geographical area; in other words, union people do not vote Democratic down there anyway. Geography and ethnicity determine how union members vote. This is why the UAW looked for outside help from the EU I think.
. The "Secretary of State" project is a PAC that was created to counter the political hijinks in Florida politics in the year 2000. It was a response PAC, not some evil machination by an invisible demigod. That's how it got its name, from Secy of State Katherine Harris.
I think the UAW should have been prepared for the negative response by conservatives, RTW and GOP politicians. The UAW has never made it a secret they hate all things Republican. I doubt they have ever backed anything but a Democrat. So why should Republicans let them steamroll into town without putting up a fight? If I am the GOP governor or Senator, it is a given the UAW will be the enemy come election time. As long as Unions continue to be partisan operatives for the Democrats, I think all is fair in love and politics. I believe Public Employee Unions should be Apolitical by law. Or the GOP tax payers should not have to pay for their Wages, pensions and Health Care. I hate seeing my taxes dollars filtered through the Public Employee Unions into the coffers of the Democrats. The UAW was given the best chance they are going to get at VW and they did not convince a majority they could make life better. They need to stop their WHINING!!
I don't think that holds true in a southern state at all. There is no evidence to suggest that union families in southern states vote Democratic. What we have here is far less subtle. The state GOP doesn't want the UAW to raise the standard of living to the point where industry will look elsewhere to build cars. Simple as that. So you cast the UAW as the devil who will take your job. Bingo. Even at that crude level, the vote almost passed. It was very close.
On the gubernatorial level, Tennessee was solid Blue until 1975 when a Republican was elected Governor. Then the infamous Ray Blanton, a Democrat, had a term (and he also enjoy a prison term lol). The next five governors have swapped between the parties - out of the last 8 governors, the parties have had four each. The congressional delegation is mostly Red, just two of the 11 are Dems.
I think the mayoral race in Chattanooga is supposed to be non-partisan, but the current mayor is a Dem. Even more amazing, he graduated from the U of Chicago Law School.
Politics makes for those strange bedfellows as you mentioned Shifty, and I'm sure there's lots of union members everywhere who don't vote a straight Democratic ticket.
(btw, after Blanton got out of prison, he worked for a Ford dealer for a while. Insert your own joke).
I don't think it has anything to do with how Union members vote. It has to do with the Millions the Unions spend on political campaigns. Some laws make it illegal to give directly to a candidate from the Union Treasury. However they can donate to an education fund, which then promotes through various means their Democrat agenda. So yes you can be a Republican and vote that way and still belong to a Union. I know as I was in several knock down PAC meetings in my Teamster local back in the early 1970s. If you are in a closed shop Union, (Non RTW) you are entitled to get back the portion of your dues used to promote the Democrat party.
If you are an employee in one of the twenty-eight non-right-to-work states1, you may be forced to join a union and contribute part of your pay as union dues. Dues collected by your union are typically split two ways. One part of these dues, known as an “Agency Fee,” is used to cover the union’s administrative costs. The other part is called a “Political Fee” which is used to advance the union’s political, social and economic agendas. These imposed fees are used to support lobbying activities, make donations to political candidates, purchase advertising space and air time, pay for organizing activities targeted at other employers, and are given to other groups, such as ACORN, that promise to push the union’s liberal issues, however creatively. -
http://seiumonitor.com/beck-objection-form/
Lots of union support that would appear to have been outside the trackable campaign support was in Ohio for the last election. The time that seemed to be donated by many union members should be counted as donations. The things on which "free" money was spent, some of which appears to have been for not legal methods of pursuing votes, also should be noted. It's really humorous to hear folks get all exorcised about the Citizens United decision allowing businesses to have donations for agendas while the unions have had free reign over spending as big businesses with an agenda for decades. I love hearing the complaints about money from the Koch brothers from the unions and Soros-supported crowds.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Oh great, unions are people too?
Now you tell me.
When Moonbeam was running for governor last go around I got calls almost on a daily basis from different pubic employee Union members asking for my support. Meg Whitman out spent Brown by a 2 and a half times. And still lost. The personal time Union members spend canvassing by phone or door to door is invaluable. Not sure how you would put a dollar figure on it. Unless it was based on their outrageous salaries in CA.
Further evidence the UAW are not concerned about the workers only the numbers. This is just sour grapes. They had a great shot and blew it.
Appealing Volkswagen vote won't be easy for UAW
DETROIT -- The United Auto Workers union faces a high legal hurdle in appealing its defeat at Volkswagen's Tennessee plant.
Citing public statements by Republican U.S. Sen. Bob Corker and other Tennessee politicians, the UAW asked the National Labor Relations Board to set aside the results and conduct a new election.
Corker — who was mayor of Chattanooga before his election to the Senate in 2006 — responded less than two hours later.
"Unfortunately, I have to assume that today's action may slow down Volkswagen's final discussions on the new SUV line," Corker said in a statement. "The UAW is only interested in its own survival and not the interests of the great employees at Chattanooga's Volkswagen facility nor the company for which they work."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/22/uaw-vw/5727217/
Well "Moonbeam" is doing very well these days, so maybe some GOP governors should order whatever he's having, to paraphrase Lincoln's comment when people complained to him that General Grant was drinking too much.
On the Gallup Well Being Index, the American Southeast is consistently at the bottom of the heap. For that reason alone, I predict a resurgence of unions in that part of the country--either that, or a mass migration, which is also possible.
...and with a budget surplus no less.
Like it or hate it, California is an economic powerhouse and a hotbed of new ideas.
It is interesting to match up the Gallup Well Being Index with the % of workers who are unionized, state by state. Not sure what conclusions can be made though, as numbers are skewed by ethnicity and by how many of that % are public service workers (public service workers unionize at a far greater rate than private industry).
One stat that surprised me was that Alaska and Hawaii are heavily unionized, moreso than California.
NY is the most unionized state in America.
Look around the state of CA. Trade Unions have been decimated by illegals working for cash. The only Unions doing well are Public Employee Unions, and a few professional unions like nurses. Along with Domestics and Janitors. If you are a Union Carpenter, electrician, plumber, Glazier, etc you are screwed here. Even stimulus jobs around here have been subcontracted to rag tag contractors. Easy to spot when they are driving trucks with Baja plates and the workers don't even have hard hats. If CA with the highest percentage of poverty in the USA is what you call well run..... I guess we will continue to disagree. Thankfully housing is almost back to 2006 levels and I will get back most of my investment on my way to a better run state.
You're in the very southern part of the state, which from your window does not have the same view as a window in Silicon Valley or the SF Bay Area. I'm sure the man in West Virginia has a very different view of the USA than the man in Iowa.
Nonetheless, California has a very high percentage of workers who are union, as of 2013 statistics. It also ranks high on Gallup's Well Being survey, which monitors many different parameters (education, health, employment conditions (aha!), etc.)
So I'd say the union is here to stay in CA. It remains a place of opportunity, which means a place of possibilities.
In my view, any state of the union that does not follow California's lead in high tech, in labor relations, and in governance, is going to be left far far behind. (which they may wish to do, and god bless 'em).
Labor relations doesn't mean following an old outdated model, by the way, in the same way that the US Navy doesn't build battleships to rule the seas anymore.
No automaker is going anywhere trying to live in 1930, nor in the 1970s.
Creativity rewards people, but regression to some idealized, non-existent past will be punished in the 21st century IMO.
Now you know why I moved.
Funny how people wind up back living at the bottom of the heap years later though. Not that the UP isn't fun in it's own way, even if pro-union sentiments run high.
I don't think many people choose to live in those places. Now really, some states in the SE have an infant mortality rate worse than Botswana...what young family in their right minds would move there? KY isn't that bad, but it's pretty near the bottom of the Well Being Heap--if you value the things that Gallup's list monitors, I mean.
Naturally, income level affects Well Being--not consistently across the 50 states, but it's certainly a strong indicator.
KY isn't that bad, but it's pretty near the bottom of the Well Being Heap--if you value the things that Gallup's list monitors, I mean.
I don't consider KY as being in the SE United States.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Most maps show it as a SE state, or in the "SE region". It's the northernmost state in the SE region.
Yup. I just think of it as the state with the Mason Dixon Line.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
TN & Ky have several cities that rank at the top of good places to retire. TN ranks 4th with a few other states on getting kids through High School. CA does not rank real high. States like Oregon are at the bottom of the heap. Strong Union states like Michigan are not doing that well on education either.
http://www.takepart.com/photos/high-school-graduation-rates/4-tennessee-one-of-the-5-best
Of the top 25 cities to retire in 2014, not a one is in CA. This state is only suitable for the rich to retire. And the homeless of course.
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mjf45hfje/bowling-green-ky/
Bowling Green has the Creme de la Creme of UAW jobs building Corvettes. KY has 18 UAW locals. One of the places I am looking at is very close to Bowling Green. Beautiful rolling hills with plenty of water and rain. Cheap electricity 1/6th the price per KWH of San Diego. CA is no place for the Middle classes unless you have a cushy government job, Very High tech or born with the big bucks.
I read that CA could split into 6 states. Any chances of Gagrice's ending up in one that is worthwhile politically?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Maybe buying a house as an investment is part of the problem? If we want to talk about coddled and subsidized industries, anything connected to housing from mortgage brokers to developers to builders to realtors must be included too. It's a pretty intense cabal. Buy a house for shelter.
Had you bought in some southern areas, your values might never recover. It's that way in many actual cities in the SE, especially ATL, where prices will likely never return to inflation-adjusted highs, never as in never ever. And then you'll have to listen to she who must be pleased complain about humidity and freak winter storms - you're in CA for the weather and because of her urging, right?
The union skilled trades topic is a good one - competition enabled both by greybeard save the world bleeding hearts who want to let everyone in, and the sinister conservative "job creators" who virtually own the building trades, and love to employ illegal cheap labor while feigning ignorance.
Which state do you prefer?
It is the fat cat Silicon Valley bunch wanting to get rid of the poor parts of the state. South CA would probably be ok as long as the Navy stays in San Diego. It will do nothing to fix the real problem of too many people and not enough water. Silicon Valley with 50 millionaires or more per square mile are currently subsidizing places in the depressed areas of the state. The Central Valley is running close to 30% unemployment with the Agriculture all but shut down by lack of water. They are trying to protect some goofy little smelt. So the whole USA will be paying more for fresh fruit and veggies. While all the workers sit on welfare roles adding to the 23% under the poverty level. Farm workers Unions are not doing well with few crops.
Me neither. Florida either, except maybe parts of the panhandle. Border states.
In the letters section:
"Now we are being told that as King leaves office this spring, the UAW “leaders” will vote on a 25 percent dues increase on it’s members. That might be the last straw for many UAW members, like myself, who will be able to leave the union at the expiration of the current contract in September 2015."
UAW's latest move might be last straw for many members (Macomb Daily, a Michigan paper)
Point of interest: were UAW and other union workers in MI not paying tax on their retirement income from the UAW's fund? I came across the retirement tax by the governor discussion while looking at Macomb County's newspaper.
http://www.michigan.gov/taxes/0,4676,7-238-43513_44135-291038--,00.html
Why wouldn't National Guard retirement be taxed? It's excluded.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I should know this.
Michigan recently changed the state income tax on retirement benefits so it's not as good a place to retire now. Benefits used to be exempt but they've started a tiered system based on date of birth. We just made the cut because my DOB is between 1946 & 1952 (my wife gets a small pension).
Don't know why National Guard benefits were excluded.
There are far better states than MI to retire, Here is a writer in MI that sees the whole UAW thing pretty much as I do. Time for the Unions to look out for the workers and leave the politics alone.
The union might want to spend more time concentrating its efforts on convincing workers, without the attempted intimidation of the black shirts, about the benefits of joining the union, and less time working on ideological and one-sided political (Democrat) efforts because every American worker is concerned about his own pocketbook but not every one agrees with the politics of UAW leadership.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140221/OPINION01/302210007/On-heels-southern-defeat-UAW-needs-reset
If you read the entire Gallup Well Being Poll and how it is configured, you'd find the evaluation for KY quite sobering.
KY sure seems to produce some seemingly radical politicians for whatever reasons.
It's just reaction to change rather than pro-action to change. You don't have to be PRO union or ANTI-union; there are all kinds of ideas sitting there right in the middle, waiting to be cultivated and shaped to fit the 21st century economic climate. This is what keeps California so resilient. You take the lead, you try things out. Win some, lose some. The spark of creativity is not some AHA! single moment that you had in your mind all along. The spark of creativity is when someone is trying all sorts of things and then notices ..."hey, THAT'S interesting..."
That "thing" might be, say, incentives that worked in some completely unrelated workforce, or another country. Spain, for instance, is doing some very interesting labor-management experiments.
CA has lost some Union members over the last year. Still too many dragging down the tax payers.
Union membership declined in California last year, the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics says in a new report.
The drop was from 2.5 million in 2012 to 2.4 million in 2013 and from 17.2 percent of the state's 14-plus million public and private workers to 16.4 percent, the BLS said in a nationwide report on union representation.
Other data have shown that the bulk of California's union membership is among school system and state and local government workers.
http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2014/01/californias-union-membership-dips-to-164-percent-of-workers.html
This piece gives a quick look at the problem I have with public employee unions. I am not as benevolent as the author is. I consider them a cancer on society.
LOOK around the world and the forces are massing. On one side are Californian prison guards, British policemen, French railworkers, Greek civil servants, and teachers just about everywhere. On the other stand the cash-strapped governments of the rich world. Even the mere mention of cuts has brought public-sector workers onto the streets across Europe. When those plans are put into action, expect much worse.
“Industrial relations” are back at the heart of politics—not as an old-fashioned clash between capital and labour, fought out so brutally in the Thatcherite 1980s, but as one between taxpayers and what William Cobbett, one of the great British liberals, used to refer to as “tax eaters”. People in the private sector are only just beginning to understand how much of a banquet public-sector unions have been having at everybody else's expense (see article). In many rich countries wages are on average higher in the state sector, pensions hugely better and jobs far more secure. Even if many individual state workers do magnificent jobs, their unions have blocked reform at every turn. In both America and Europe it is almost as hard to reward an outstanding teacher as it is to sack a useless one.
While union membership has collapsed in the private sector over the past 30 years (from 44% of the workforce to 15% in Britain and from 33% to 15% in America), it has remained buoyant in the public sector. In Britain over half the workers are unionised. In America the figure is now 36% (compared with just 11% in 1960). In much of continental Europe most civil servants belong to unions, albeit ones that straddle the private sector as well. And in public services union power is magnified not just by strikers' ability to shut down monopolies that everyone needs without seeing their employer go bust, but also by their political clout over those employers.
Many Western centre-left parties are union-backed. Britain's Labour Party gets 80% of its funding from public-sector unions (which also, in effect, chose its new leader). Spain's sluggish state reform may be partly explained by its prime minister's union membership. In America teachers alone accounted for a tenth of the delegates to the Democratic convention in 2008. And the unions are more savvy: this time, the defenders of vested interests are not brawny miners spouting Trotsky, but nice middle-class women, often hiding behind useful-sounding groups like the National Education Association (American teachers) or the British Medical Association.
Now stand and fight
Politicians have repeatedly given in, usually sneakily—by swelling pensions, adding yet more holidays or dropping reforms, rather than by increasing pay. This time they have to fight because they are so short of money. But it is crucial that the war with the public-sector unions is won in the right way. For amid all the pain ahead sits a huge opportunity—to redesign government. That means focusing on productivity and improving services, not just cutting costs. (Indeed, in some cases it may entail paying good people more; one reason why Singapore has arguably the best civil service in the world is that it pays some of them more than $2m a year.)
The immediate battle will be over benefits, not pay. Here the issue is parity. Holidays are often absurdly generous, but the real issue is pensions. Too many state workers can retire in their mid-50s on close to full pay. America's states have as much as $5 trillion in unfunded pension liabilities. Historic liabilities have to be honoured (and properly accounted for, rather than hidden off the government's balance-sheet). But there is no excuse for continuing them. Sixty-five should be a minimum age for retirement for people who spend their lives in classrooms and offices; and new civil servants should be switched to defined-contribution pensions.
Another battleground will be the unions' legal privileges. It is not that long since politicians of all persuasions were uncomfortable with the idea of government workers joining unions. (Franklin Roosevelt opposed this on the grounds that public servants had “special relations” and “special obligations” to the government and the rest of the public.) It would be perverse to ban public-sector unions outright at a time when governments are trying to make public services more like private ones. But their right to strike should be more tightly limited; and the rules governing political donations and even unionisation itself should be changed to “opt-in” ones, in which a member decides whether to give or join.
The productivity imperative
Fixing the public sector must not be allowed to degenerate into demonising it. Its health is vital to the health of society as a whole, not least because of its impact on economic growth. Bad teachers mean a lousy talent-pool for employers. Allowing a subway driver to retire at 50 on an artificially inflated pension means less to spend on infrastructure: just look at America's highways and railways. Even if many public services are monopolies, private capital is mobile: it goes to places where government works. With ageing populations needing ever more state help, the left should have as much interest as the right in an efficient state sector (perhaps more so, as it thinks government is the way to right society's ills).
Private-sector productivity has soared in the West over the past quarter-century, even in old industries such as steel and carmaking. Companies have achieved this because they have the freedom to manage—to experiment, to expand successful innovations, to close down bad ones, to promote talented people (see article). Across the public sector, unions have fought all this, most cruelly in education (see article). It can be harder to restructure government than business, but even small productivity gains can bring big savings.
The coming battle should be about delivering better services, not about cutting resources. Focusing on productivity should help politicians redefine the debate. The imminent retirement of the baby-boomers is a chance to hire a new generation of workers with different contracts. Politicians face a choice: push ahead, reform and create jobs in the long term; or give in again, and cut more services and raise more taxes.
http://www.economist.com/node/17851305
And for those that think CA is the place to go, more believe it is the place to leave. 566,986 left in 2012 and 493,641 arrived. Probably across our So border. Wealthy bailing Out poor coming in.
http://vizynary.com/2013/11/18/restless-america-state-to-state-migration-in-2012/
Yearly gain/loss is a meaningless number. California's population growth more than compensates for those that leave--there's a net gain in population of almost 3% from 2010--2013.
If you used the same reasoning for starting a business, you'd say that the place with the highest number of business start-up failures would be the worst place to start up a business---and you'd be wrong.
Look at all the Californians still moving to WA/OR - most places here with jobs and high wages have costs of living and taxes that aren't exactly cheap
I remember an article from a long while back about all the Californians moving to Utah and Oregon in search of a slower paced life just to complain there wasn't a coffee shop on every corner and a Wal Mart in every strip mall.
"Five Volkswagen workers are trying to challenge an objection filed by the United Auto Workers with the federal government following the UAW's defeat in a unionization vote at the Chattanooga, Tennessee, VW plant, an anti-union group said Tuesday. The five workers said that VW and the UAW colluded to support the union and that if they are not heard, the company and the union will not present a defense of the vote's result"
VW Tennessee workers challenging UAW objection to plant vote (Reuters)
Hm, there's a better story at the Chicago Tribune.