As content as I am to let democracy decide the outcome of events (sorta democracy), this FORBES article did make me laugh out loud--not only for the torturous amount of spin that gives corporate VW a god-like wisdom, and for dismissing VW's success in Europe as being accomplished "despite" their unions there (oh, c'mon!) but especially for incarnating the UAW as Satan in coveralls: ("spreading their tentacles"). What? No reference to typhoid?
What a horrible article. I especially liked the last paragraph that Marchionne was so hell bent on getting rid of the UAW part owners that he spent $4+ billion to buy them out. IIRC, he spent the money because the UAW was thinking IPO. Someone like Kirk Kekorian could have come in and been an even bigger PITA to Marchionne.
I was surprised how bad it was. I can expect that in a WSJ editorial, which are characteristically hatchet-jobs written in hysteria, but Forbes I generally respect.
I didn't think he was that far off from the truth. I don't think for a minute VW really wants the UAW involved again in their business. IG Metall in Germany was most anxious to see the UAW in here to keep the wages up so they don't lose more manufacturing in Germany. VW was appeasing the German union. I think VW does consider the Works Council a useful tool. Too bad our labor laws make it so difficult for companies to set up such a program. I can't in my wildest imagination think that VV USA wanted the UAW in TN or any other factory they have. That would be insanity at its best. I cannot think of a singe advantage to having the UAW involved in a business. They were founded as a necessary evil and they remain as such.
As for Sergio, he wanted rid of shared ownership with the UAW before the 2015 contracts roll around. He has made it clear he does not like the two tiered wage and benefit package. From comments on other more aggressive UAW forums the workers plan on getting tough. I look for Fiat to get rid of the two tiers by bringing the top tier down to the bottom tier. And busting the UAW if they go on strike.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
How very ironic that the same media types who are clamoring for us to "Buy American" are also into union-busting. The mind boggles.
Why should that be so hard to comprehend? Being Union or Non-Union is irrelevant to buying American. There are NO 100% American made vehicles that I know of. The VW Passat may end up the Most American made by Americans. For me to buy a UAW built vehicle borders on hypocrisy. The UAW supports a political party I am diametrically opposed to, and consider a real detriment to our Constitutional Republic. The sooner the UAW self destructs the better for all Americans. The UAW has declared itself the enemy of all thinge conservative and Republican. A GOP politician coming out against the UAW seems perfectly legitimate for self preservation.
A second vote at VW would be a worse blow to the UAW. 180+ workers didn't bother to vote in the first election. That means they had NO interest in the UAW. UAW is better off accepting the results. Unless they like being embarrassed.
A group of Volkswagen AG workers in Tennessee have filed a motion with the National Labor Relations Board asking for the right to challenge the United Auto Workers’ challenge of the recent vote at their Chattanooga factory.
That poll, which took place earlier this month, saw VW workers roundly reject the UAW — despite tacit support for union representation by the company.
On Friday, the UAW announced that it had filed a complaint with the NLRB contesting the vote, alleging that workers at VW plant were swayed by “extraordinary interference” from conservative politicians and other “outside” forces.
Now, five VW workers — represented by the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation — have asked the NLRB to allow them to defend the results of the election.
In their filing, the workers state that “Volkswagen and the UAW continue to collude with one another.” They point to comments made by UAW President Bob King in a local newspaper interview as proof.
“We’re obviously communicating with our great allies in the Volkswagen Works Council, Volkswagen management and IG Metall in Germany,” King told the Chattanooga Times Free Press last week.
Statistics don't support your belief that union members always vote Democratic. Union voting habits are based on ethnicity and geography. This is why in the southeast union workers are just as likely to vote one way or the other.
The irony is that corporate management gets to vote themselves all the perks and benefits they wish, but when the union wants a nice slice of the pie, they are borderline criminals.
I wish I had a business where when it succeeds, I get all the credit, and when it fails, I can blame my workers. "They MADE me build lousy cars!"
The suits are hardworking bootstrappers and job creators who built it themselves. The workers are trying to get a free ride. That's how it goes when the ideal is to socialize losses and privatize profits. It'll trickle down any day now. If only the US could have more mature relations between different working groups. I suppose a disappointed defeated candidate agrees, after his loss he went out and bought an Audi.
I wonder how many of these politicos and their parrots who are so concerned with constitutions and republics would buy a Chinese car.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I wish I had a business where when it succeeds, I get all the credit, and when it fails, I can blame my workers. "They MADE me build lousy cars!"
"Well, of course", says Mr. Big---"these assembly-line people aren't smart enough to look out for themselves. We'll take good care of them. Why are they worried? I've always been a fair man. We built this company together, my dear workers---of course, when it is sold to China, that's all mine you understand..."
No one is saying Union workers vote one way or the other. I would say most of the people I worked with in Alaska voted Republican. In spite of the fact the Teamsters generally backed Democrats. Except Uncle Ted that brought home the PORK consistently for over 40 years.
The question is what could the UAW possibly offer the VW workers? They already have a better deal than the D3 under the UAW contract. I would say the VW workers in TN are several cuts above the UAW workers in Michigan. They had thousands of applicants to screen. They wisely use temps and pick the best for permanent jobs. That is the way a company should operate. Not like the D3 tied to UAW contracts.
As far as Trickle down that is exactly what Obama and his crony business buddies are doing with trade agreements like KORUS and the upcoming TPP. Those are TRICKLE DOWN to the max.
The dumb race to the bottom trade agreements are lies under the "nobody sees prosperity with trade barriers" babble (what the one worlders don't want to admit is we won't see prosperity with unfair trade and a rigged playing field) The trickle down deception spawned roughly 30 years ago goes another way. Study what it means.
I don't know if VW wanting UAW in TN is some kind of strategy to sabotage it and send jobs to Germany or Mexico, or simply Germany not understanding the insanely poor relationship between workers and managers (and execs) in the US.
Ironically enough, I'm not sure that either TN or the UAW is the primary issue to VW down there. I think it may be more related to placating relations between the company and it's European work councils and unions. Politicians and the media have this belief when dealing with issues that the US is always central and critical to them.
@berri said:
Ironically enough, I'm not sure that either TN or the UAW is the primary issue to VW down there. I think it may be more related to placating relations between the company and it's European work councils and unions. Politicians and the media have this belief when dealing with issues that the US is always central and critical to them. @berri said:
Ironically enough, I'm not sure that either TN or the UAW is the primary issue to VW down there. I think it may be more related to placating relations between the company and it's European work councils and unions. Politicians and the media have this belief when dealing with issues that the US is always central and critical to them.
I think you are right. I was involved with several NLRB elections and I don't remember a word out of any politicians. It was the Teamsters trying to talk the workers into voting for us and the company saying how much better off the workers would be without a union. I see it as backlash against the out of control public employee unions nationwide. Trade unions are taking the blame for it. We have 3 large cities in CA and Detroit that have all been forced into bankruptcy by the pubic employee Unions.
No, they were forced into bankruptcy by the pillaging done by Wall Street. Everyone was budgeting in the cities, based on a sane and steady economy. When that went bust, so did everyone's budget. You could argue correctly that budgets for these cities were not sustainable AFTER the crash, but they were quite rational before the crash. The same is true for the rising federal deficit--loss of revenue sabotaged the budget.
You are blaming the wrong people for the problem unless you want to blame the people responsible for running these cities, for not responding quickly enough to a near-disaster.
Cities go bankrupt for the same reason families do--they presume that next year's paycheck will be similar to this year's.
There's the key. The bubble mirage economy of the early 'oughts was anything but a sane and steady economy, and a lot of people realized it, even if most didn't. It appears that many likely overcompensated analysts and budgeteers thought that it could last forever.
I can see gagrice's point of trade unions taking the heat for public sector union excess, too. So few from any side of the aisle seem to want to call out that elephant in the room.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
No, they were forced into bankruptcy by the pillaging done by Wall Street. Everyone was budgeting in the cities, based on a sane and steady economy. When that
yes it was a mirage but there were a LOT of smart people who didn't call it..in fact, NOBODY called it who was in the "big time"---not big economists, not big media, not big "financial advisors", not the WSJ---so how were we supposed to know, us little guys?
How many of those smart people were on the dole, shilling for the mirage? I'd say anyone who resisted the propaganda to buy a house, especially at the end of the run, knew something. That was a problem in much of CA, too many of these places were dependent on the housing industry, which was dependent on dishonest economics. Real estate bubbles aren't hard to spot. Some of us knew - I didn't run out and buy a house in 2006.
As Cornelius Vanderbilt told a newspaper reporter, when asked how he managed to sell all his stocks BEFORE the Wall St. Crash in 1929: "When my chauffeur started giving me stock tips, I knew it was time to get out".
Late 2006 is kind of like the new 1928. And it seems many places based their spending on 2006 boom cash flows, or expected growth to continue at the rate from that period. Those who didn't boom generally didn't bust.
@fintail said:
Late 2006 is kind of like the new 1928. And it seems many places based their spending on 2006 boom cash flows, or expected growth to continue at the rate from that period. Those who didn't boom generally didn't bust.
CA is headed for another Bust. I would bet 10 years from the last one. Fannie and Freddie are bundling thousands of foreclosed properties in CA. Selling them to hedge funds for pennies on the dollar. Stipulation, they cannot be put back on the market for 5 years. For now it has created another housing shortage. I have not seen this kind of building since 2006. Homes very close to what they were in early 07 before the slowdown hit. Two of the 5 richest cities in the USA number one Silicon Valley and San Francisco are frantically trying to divorce themselves from the poor parts of the state. They are the last remaining vestiges of the Dot.Com era and don't want to share the $trillions with the dregs of CA. The sooner they shuffle their poor to other parts of the state by raising the COL to unbelievable heights the better. Forcing people in San Francisco out of homes they have lived in for decades is the Liberals idea of Eugenics.
That's a well-written article. It doesn't contain typical slant through choice of words or phrasing in what it says.
I believe the articles says the UAW has another week to present their brief on the corker that Corker pulled to affect the election. So I don't think we're gonna know which Bob today.
I liken Corker et al's trying to damage the election and saying it's okay to someone on Wall STreet trying to affect a company's stock price and then saying it's just business as usual after they profited from the damage they did to the price.
@imidazol97, I still think if everyone had just butted out, the UAW would have lost. All that political and real capital expended has mostly muddied the waters.
The issue ultimately boils down to what can the UAW offer the workers that they don't already enjoy?
@Stever@Edmunds said:
[No sign of expansion at plant where UAW dealt loss
VW is not going to do anything until the NLRB certifies the election. If they were to announce something now it would mean Corker was right and the VW management was lying after his statement. That would give the UAW ammunition against VW, saying the company undermined their attempt to unionize. I think they give it 6 month and then you will hear where your new diesel SUV will be built. My guess is it WILL be built in TN. That Union plonker in Germany only made the one statement after the election and the UAW media wonks have spun it a hundred different ways. This guy is spot on with his analysis of the UAW vote in TN.
Can you imagine the discussions and recriminations back home in Germany over this? I bet there's some people around Wolfsburg who remember the labor unrest in the last VW factory in Pennsylvania saying "I told you so".
What the union can do for the workers is to insure that what management might do to them, doesn't occur. Unions are by nature defensive positions. It's like saying "what does a trench do for an army when there is no artillery barrage?" Answer, nothing.
California is not going bust. California is going to leave the entire country in the dust. Why? Because it has tremendous resources in materials, labor and intellectual property.
Churchill once described the United States in a similar way: (paraphrase) "When we make a mistake, we stagger. When the USA makes a mistake, it just turns up the horsepower".
CA won't bust, but some busted parts of it might not see a renaissance anytime soon.
Regarding housing or COL, isn't that part of some people's broken ideal of "capitalism"? I've heard it many times from real estate cabal types in Vancouver especially, who will say something to the effect of "if you can't afford to live here, you shouldn't". Maybe the system is broken? Eugenics are something different entirely. This is just speculative movement in a very coddled and subsidized industry, and that industry tends to be very "conservative", not so much "liberal", as it usually wants to profit from the boom in a high tax high regulation (LA, SF, Seattle) area, then pay nothing to maintain what built them.
And in time, the public sector pension issue will become louder, too. Silicon Valley and LA will need to thrive to keep up with it.
@Stever@Edmunds said:
Can you imagine the discussions and recriminations back home in Germany over this? I bet there's some people around Wolfsburg who remember the labor unrest in the last VW factory in Pennsylvania saying "I told you so".
Michigan tried to get VW to build when they decided on TN. Who in their right mind would build a new factory in a place like Michigan, with its spoiled workforce that feel they are entitled to $100k a year factory job? The people in TN are smart enough to know that the $20 per hour they get after 3 years gives them a better lifestyle than the $19.28 per hour GM is paying their new workers after 6 years. The UAW really had NOTHING to offer the VW workers. VW USA knew that and just played the good guy.
@fintail said:
CA won't bust, but some busted parts of it might not see a renaissance anytime soon.
Eugenics was the wrong word. The rich of the SF/SV are more into genocide of the poor. When you have people buying up the old places forcing out the long time low income tenants it is a form of economic genocide. That is what is going on in San Francisco. Some of the worst homeless problems in the US all under the noses of the Limo Liberals and over paid public employees that control the city.
SAN FRANCISCO -- – In case you've missed it, Silicon Valley has its own version of Occupy Wall Street.
This culture war lacks rampant arrests, bursts of violence or national media coverage, but the dissent of anti-gentrification groups over income and housing is creating a stir just the same here.
You are living in the distant past. Here's reality, 2014 style:
"Since 2007, the United Auto Workers has agreed to let automakers hire new workers who forgo traditional retiree health care, equal pay for equal work, job security and pensions in exchange for jobs that would have gone to Mexico or Asia. About 13 percent of GM, Ford Motor Co. (F) and Chrysler Group LLC hourly workers, or 15,155 employees, now are entry level.
As U.S. automakers hire new, lower-cost workers the UAW has posted two straight years of membership gains.Now, as many as half the workers at the Michigan factory assembling Sonic and Verano sub-compact cars make less than the $19.10 hourly average U.S. manufacturing wage and lack traditional union retiree benefits."
"The compromises will close the labor-cost gap at GM, Ford and Chrysler factories with those at U.S. plants for Toyota Motor Corp. (7203) and Honda Motor Co., Dziczek said. By 2015, GM’s total cost for wages and benefits will be about $59 an hour, compared with $56 at Toyota. In 2007, GM estimated the gap with Toyota at $25 to $30 an hour. Chrysler’s average hourly labor costs may fall by 2015 to $53, lower than Toyota’s, CAR said."
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
You are living in the distant past. Here's reality, 2014 style:
I am not living in the past at all. The reality is VW workers in TN are doing better than their counterparts in Michigan and elsewhere under UAW agreements. Even the Socialist concede those facts. VW workers voting for the UAW would not be in their best interest.
Before the vote, workers became aware of a clause in the Volkswagen-UAW “neutrality agreement” promising the automaker the union would engage in “maintaining and where possible enhancing the cost advantages and other competitive advantages that [Volkswagen] enjoys relative to its competitors in the United States and North America.”
In other words, the UAW told Volkswagen it would keep wages “competitive” with the Detroit-based automakers. The Chattanooga workers could only take this as a threat; full-time workers hired at the Volkswagen plant in 2011 earn about $5 more per hour than their counterparts at General Motors, Ford and Chrysler who were hired over the last six years.
Workers at the Tennessee factory—many of whom worked in northern plants before—know full well that the UAW has overseen the destruction of hundreds of thousands of jobs, the closing of hundreds of factories and the abandonment of virtually every gain won by auto workers.
I am not living in the past at all. The reality is VW workers in TN are doing better than their counterparts in Michigan and elsewhere under UAW agreements.
And no income tax in the State of Tennessee. The sales tax is higher than some other states. And IIRC it's on tax out food and groceries as well, things that are exempt in Ohio.
SF is a housing train wreck, with weird illogical rent controls and regulations for old and new buildings alike. I don't know if anywhere else compares - even Manhattan is better managed, probably.
If any occupy-style movement was real, its target area would look like Kiev as of late, not what seems to often be a bunch of kidults hanging around with ipads. That real vision might slowly inch towards possibility as most take it on the chin for a few.
@fintail said:
If any occupy-style movement was real, its target area would look like Kiev as of late, not what seems to often be a bunch of kidults hanging around with ipads. That real vision might slowly inch towards possibility as most take it on the chin for a few.
They keep the protesters mellowed out with Pot. Of course that is killing off the salmon and making the water shortage worse. A person has to be blind not to see the problems over paid Public Employees with their INSANE Union benefits and pensions are causing.
@Stever@Edmunds said:
Michigan is now a Right to Work state, just like Tennessee.
It will be interesting when 2015 rolls around to see how many UAW members take advantage of the RTW laws in Michigan. My understanding is they cannot drop out except at contract time. I did not realize how many Federal Employees do not belong to the Unions. A friend of ours has worked 25 years in the SSI office. She said most of the people there are not part of the Union.
The 7% on food for us would be less than 10% of what we paid in CA state income tax last year. TN has higher property tax than some neighbors. The VW workers could cross into Georgia to shop where sales tax is only 4%. Far and away the worst state for taxes is CA.
North Georgia was cheaper for gas and plenty of other stuff and only about 5 or so miles away from me when I lived in Chattanooga.
Never went there to shop. Tis a good place to get furniture and carpets down in Dalton. The "real" shoppers would go to the malls in Atlanta, a couple of hours away.
Boise is about 40 miles from sales tax free Oregon. Some people shopped there, but we never bothered. There's more of an impact up in the panhandle where the minimum wage in Washington is higher so some people remain Idaho residents but commute across the state line to work.
Besides King's legacy at losing the VW vote (at least this go-round), the real decision that will have long lasting impact, as noted in your Redstate link, will be his ill-fated attempt to add union rights to the Michigan constitution thereby solidifying the opposition who got the RTW law passed.
Same in CA. We have four different sales tax figures within 20 miles of me. When looking at potential places to move. I look at income tax and the breaks they give on Pension income. Property tax is a real biggie. That is what took TX off my list. 2.4% of appraised value is extortion in my book. Next some states the property tax is set by the city, county or state. Some even go by township within the same city. TN in general has high property tax. KY has better property tax and forgives income tax on first $48k of pension income. You also have to think about estate and inheritance taxes. Then of course demographics and crime in the location you pick. Last but not least good HC facilities & cost of utilities.
To keep on subject, the place you pick needs to have the Public Employee unions under control not the other way around.
Having read the "best retirement" articles for years now, with the exception of the first four of five places listed in that Forbes article, my feeling is that it's mostly a wash. If the income taxes don't get you the mill rate will.
Live where you like (okay, unfortunately I can't afford Malibu or Manhattan, but you get my drift).
"Complacency reigns during periods of tight labor supply and prosperity, when the workforce figures, why siphon off part of my paycheck in union dues, since I'm already well-paid and reasonably secure? To a certain extent this was a factor in Chattanooga, where workers considered themselves well-paid and well-treated, and therefore couldn't fully comprehend what more union membership would get them."
Glad to hear the economy is booming "below the bridge". :-)
I wonder if overall public sector pensions are not the real issue - as they go far beyond union membership. So many seem underfunded when one examines contributions vs payouts, and how so many in that sector are able to retire young with huge benefits. Maybe they need to be forced into a defined contribution system like everyone else.
@gagrice said:
To keep on subject, the place you pick needs to have the Public Employee unions under control not the other way around.
@fintail said:
I wonder if overall public sector pensions are not the real issue - as they go far beyond union membership. So many seem underfunded when one examines contributions vs payouts, and how so many in that sector are able to retire young with huge benefits. Maybe they need to be forced into a defined contribution system like everyone else.
Everyone seems afraid to stand up to the Teachers, Police and Firemen unions. Why when they are bankrupting cities across the nation? I totally agree they need to become part of the workforce that is investing in their own retirement. We passed up raises to increase the amount going into our Teamster pension. Some did not like it but now they have a decent pension. At least for now. The Union pensions are pushing Vallejo back into bankruptcy court.
Just days before last week’s Vallejo’s election, retiring council member Marti Brown penned an op-ed in the SacBee worrying that the Jumpstart coalition would bring the city “to its knees again.” A lifelong Democrat, Brown argued in the op-ed that “the Democratic Party has become too dependent on public safety unions to fund its political campaigns.”
Brown predicted that if elected the city’s pro-union Democrats would commit to re-instituting binding arbitration, the process by which outside arbitrators break negotiating deadlocks between governments and government-employee unions. “It’s fiscally irresponsible for unelected officials to make binding financial decisions on the salaries and benefits of public employees that we all have to pay for,” Brown noted, after observing that previously arbitration had been a ‘nightmare’ for the city.
The city is currently struggling with a $5.2 million budget deficit, and pension costs have risen from 11 percent of the city’s general fund in 2008, when Vallejo entered bankruptcy, to 18 percent this year.
@Stever@Edmunds said:
"Complacency reigns during periods of tight labor supply and prosperity, when the workforce figures, why siphon off part of my paycheck in union dues, since I'm already well-paid and reasonably secure? To a certain extent this was a factor in Chattanooga, where workers considered themselves well-paid and well-treated, and therefore couldn't fully comprehend what more union membership would get them."
I would say the only one naive is Hiltzik. He is like most Americans unable to distinguish between trade (private) Unions and Public employee Unions. Trade Union membership is declining while public employee union membership is growing at an alarming pace. And they are the evil ones that are not accountable to the tax payer, other than via the elected officials which the Unions are the largest contributors. Politicians are supposed to be looking out for their constituents. Instead they look out for the Unions that hand them big wads of cash to win another election. It is no wonder the TN GOP made an all out effort to keep out the UAW. The UAW is the enemy of the GOP. Maybe if King had schmoozed some GOP folks it might have gone the other way. Though I doubt it as TN has had it with that brand of politicians.
Everyone that thinks Public Employee Unions are a good thing should read this piece by a a Vallejo Council member watching the city head back into bankruptcy. This is happening all over the USA to cities large and small.
Like most people who run for office, I ran because I thought I could make a positive difference in government.
This year, I decided not to seek re-election to the Vallejo City Council after my first term.
@gagrice said
Like most people who run for office, I ran because I thought I could make a positive difference in government. This year, I decided not to seek re-election to the Vallejo City Council after my first term.
Naive democrat? Surprise. Surprise. I suspect there is much more to this than the concept the public unions are bad and other unions are good. I listen to an on-going problem in Cincinnati with the city having illegally set a requirement for only union companies to be able to bid for county-wide sewer projects. The union is so good that the city didn't use it for their fiasco in progress of trolley cars, but they are using it to make the county taxpayers pay more for the EPA-required sewer projects. A discussion indicated there is an additional $6 charge per hour for healthcare working out to $13,000 per year for each worker per government regulations. I can supply the pod cast from the radio.
But let's take a look at gereral costs. Gagrice cited an article about a superintendent with 1500 students and $320,000 salary plus benefits. I checked out 5000 student district's superintendent and her pay is $128,000. I suspect she gets a car allowance because past superintendents did get that. Maybe CA has just lost its mind on public employees pay.
Also take a look at the pension fund payments if they are not required like the state government payments here. Some self-funded pensions here, Cincinnati for one, are low on funding because the city kept putting off the required paying the funds in--because it was more fund to spend the money on something else rather than fund the pensions of the workers. Now they owe huge amounts to the pension fund, and they are hoping to put in some money and have the state taxpayers take over the deficit in the pension fund by absorbing the workers into a state pension fund. That's the taxpayers subsidizing the city even more than the two huge stadiums for the Reds and Bengals we helped pay for.
Also take a look at the bonds they floated in the past. Stockton, and several cities around the country including Detroit, got caught playing with Wall Street funny paper tricks. I would have to research the topic with my son, but there was something about a low interest rate which could rise. The rates rise and the city can't afford the payments? The State of Ohio was being encouraged to pass a law preventing entities from doing the same kind of gambling.
Comments
Slimy Kentucky politics still at work. This is going to be one battle Kentucky will regret winning IMO.
As content as I am to let democracy decide the outcome of events (sorta democracy), this FORBES article did make me laugh out loud--not only for the torturous amount of spin that gives corporate VW a god-like wisdom, and for dismissing VW's success in Europe as being accomplished "despite" their unions there (oh, c'mon!) but especially for incarnating the UAW as Satan in coveralls: ("spreading their tentacles"). What? No reference to typhoid?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2014/02/15/vw-hq-must-be-breathing-sighs-of-relief-sums-were-right-in-chattanooga/
What a horrible article. I especially liked the last paragraph that Marchionne was so hell bent on getting rid of the UAW part owners that he spent $4+ billion to buy them out. IIRC, he spent the money because the UAW was thinking IPO. Someone like Kirk Kekorian could have come in and been an even bigger PITA to Marchionne.
I was surprised how bad it was. I can expect that in a WSJ editorial, which are characteristically hatchet-jobs written in hysteria, but Forbes I generally respect.
I didn't think he was that far off from the truth. I don't think for a minute VW really wants the UAW involved again in their business. IG Metall in Germany was most anxious to see the UAW in here to keep the wages up so they don't lose more manufacturing in Germany. VW was appeasing the German union. I think VW does consider the Works Council a useful tool. Too bad our labor laws make it so difficult for companies to set up such a program. I can't in my wildest imagination think that VV USA wanted the UAW in TN or any other factory they have. That would be insanity at its best. I cannot think of a singe advantage to having the UAW involved in a business. They were founded as a necessary evil and they remain as such.
As for Sergio, he wanted rid of shared ownership with the UAW before the 2015 contracts roll around. He has made it clear he does not like the two tiered wage and benefit package. From comments on other more aggressive UAW forums the workers plan on getting tough. I look for Fiat to get rid of the two tiers by bringing the top tier down to the bottom tier. And busting the UAW if they go on strike.
Another reason to buy an Abarth!!!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
How very ironic that the same media types who are clamoring for us to "Buy American" are also into union-busting. The mind boggles.
Why should that be so hard to comprehend? Being Union or Non-Union is irrelevant to buying American. There are NO 100% American made vehicles that I know of. The VW Passat may end up the Most American made by Americans. For me to buy a UAW built vehicle borders on hypocrisy. The UAW supports a political party I am diametrically opposed to, and consider a real detriment to our Constitutional Republic. The sooner the UAW self destructs the better for all Americans. The UAW has declared itself the enemy of all thinge conservative and Republican. A GOP politician coming out against the UAW seems perfectly legitimate for self preservation.
A second vote at VW would be a worse blow to the UAW. 180+ workers didn't bother to vote in the first election. That means they had NO interest in the UAW. UAW is better off accepting the results. Unless they like being embarrassed.
A group of Volkswagen AG workers in Tennessee have filed a motion with the National Labor Relations Board asking for the right to challenge the United Auto Workers’ challenge of the recent vote at their Chattanooga factory.
That poll, which took place earlier this month, saw VW workers roundly reject the UAW — despite tacit support for union representation by the company.
On Friday, the UAW announced that it had filed a complaint with the NLRB contesting the vote, alleging that workers at VW plant were swayed by “extraordinary interference” from conservative politicians and other “outside” forces.
Now, five VW workers — represented by the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation — have asked the NLRB to allow them to defend the results of the election.
In their filing, the workers state that “Volkswagen and the UAW continue to collude with one another.” They point to comments made by UAW President Bob King in a local newspaper interview as proof.
“We’re obviously communicating with our great allies in the Volkswagen Works Council, Volkswagen management and IG Metall in Germany,” King told the Chattanooga Times Free Press last week.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140225/AUTO0104/302250108#ixzz2uXmRSmbl
Statistics don't support your belief that union members always vote Democratic. Union voting habits are based on ethnicity and geography. This is why in the southeast union workers are just as likely to vote one way or the other.
The irony is that corporate management gets to vote themselves all the perks and benefits they wish, but when the union wants a nice slice of the pie, they are borderline criminals.
I wish I had a business where when it succeeds, I get all the credit, and when it fails, I can blame my workers. "They MADE me build lousy cars!"
The suits are hardworking bootstrappers and job creators who built it themselves. The workers are trying to get a free ride. That's how it goes when the ideal is to socialize losses and privatize profits. It'll trickle down any day now. If only the US could have more mature relations between different working groups. I suppose a disappointed defeated candidate agrees, after his loss he went out and bought an Audi.
I wonder how many of these politicos and their parrots who are so concerned with constitutions and republics would buy a Chinese car.
"Well, of course", says Mr. Big---"these assembly-line people aren't smart enough to look out for themselves. We'll take good care of them. Why are they worried? I've always been a fair man. We built this company together, my dear workers---of course, when it is sold to China, that's all mine you understand..."
No one is saying Union workers vote one way or the other. I would say most of the people I worked with in Alaska voted Republican. In spite of the fact the Teamsters generally backed Democrats. Except Uncle Ted that brought home the PORK consistently for over 40 years.
The question is what could the UAW possibly offer the VW workers? They already have a better deal than the D3 under the UAW contract. I would say the VW workers in TN are several cuts above the UAW workers in Michigan. They had thousands of applicants to screen. They wisely use temps and pick the best for permanent jobs. That is the way a company should operate. Not like the D3 tied to UAW contracts.
As far as Trickle down that is exactly what Obama and his crony business buddies are doing with trade agreements like KORUS and the upcoming TPP. Those are TRICKLE DOWN to the max.
The dumb race to the bottom trade agreements are lies under the "nobody sees prosperity with trade barriers" babble (what the one worlders don't want to admit is we won't see prosperity with unfair trade and a rigged playing field) The trickle down deception spawned roughly 30 years ago goes another way. Study what it means.
I don't know if VW wanting UAW in TN is some kind of strategy to sabotage it and send jobs to Germany or Mexico, or simply Germany not understanding the insanely poor relationship between workers and managers (and execs) in the US.
Ironically enough, I'm not sure that either TN or the UAW is the primary issue to VW down there. I think it may be more related to placating relations between the company and it's European work councils and unions. Politicians and the media have this belief when dealing with issues that the US is always central and critical to them.
I think you are right. I was involved with several NLRB elections and I don't remember a word out of any politicians. It was the Teamsters trying to talk the workers into voting for us and the company saying how much better off the workers would be without a union. I see it as backlash against the out of control public employee unions nationwide. Trade unions are taking the blame for it. We have 3 large cities in CA and Detroit that have all been forced into bankruptcy by the pubic employee Unions.
No, they were forced into bankruptcy by the pillaging done by Wall Street. Everyone was budgeting in the cities, based on a sane and steady economy. When that went bust, so did everyone's budget. You could argue correctly that budgets for these cities were not sustainable AFTER the crash, but they were quite rational before the crash. The same is true for the rising federal deficit--loss of revenue sabotaged the budget.
You are blaming the wrong people for the problem unless you want to blame the people responsible for running these cities, for not responding quickly enough to a near-disaster.
Cities go bankrupt for the same reason families do--they presume that next year's paycheck will be similar to this year's.
" based on a sane and steady economy. "
There's the key. The bubble mirage economy of the early 'oughts was anything but a sane and steady economy, and a lot of people realized it, even if most didn't. It appears that many likely overcompensated analysts and budgeteers thought that it could last forever.
I can see gagrice's point of trade unions taking the heat for public sector union excess, too. So few from any side of the aisle seem to want to call out that elephant in the room.
yes it was a mirage but there were a LOT of smart people who didn't call it..in fact, NOBODY called it who was in the "big time"---not big economists, not big media, not big "financial advisors", not the WSJ---so how were we supposed to know, us little guys?
How many of those smart people were on the dole, shilling for the mirage? I'd say anyone who resisted the propaganda to buy a house, especially at the end of the run, knew something. That was a problem in much of CA, too many of these places were dependent on the housing industry, which was dependent on dishonest economics. Real estate bubbles aren't hard to spot. Some of us knew - I didn't run out and buy a house in 2006.
As Cornelius Vanderbilt told a newspaper reporter, when asked how he managed to sell all his stocks BEFORE the Wall St. Crash in 1929: "When my chauffeur started giving me stock tips, I knew it was time to get out".
Late 2006 is kind of like the new 1928. And it seems many places based their spending on 2006 boom cash flows, or expected growth to continue at the rate from that period. Those who didn't boom generally didn't bust.
CA is headed for another Bust. I would bet 10 years from the last one. Fannie and Freddie are bundling thousands of foreclosed properties in CA. Selling them to hedge funds for pennies on the dollar. Stipulation, they cannot be put back on the market for 5 years. For now it has created another housing shortage. I have not seen this kind of building since 2006. Homes very close to what they were in early 07 before the slowdown hit. Two of the 5 richest cities in the USA number one Silicon Valley and San Francisco are frantically trying to divorce themselves from the poor parts of the state. They are the last remaining vestiges of the Dot.Com era and don't want to share the $trillions with the dregs of CA. The sooner they shuffle their poor to other parts of the state by raising the COL to unbelievable heights the better. Forcing people in San Francisco out of homes they have lived in for decades is the Liberals idea of Eugenics.
http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-american-cities-rich-poor-20131025,0,4446084.photogallery?index=la-fi-mo-american-cities-rich-poor-20131025-006#axzz2uUhQGGpJ
lol, do something, get blamed, do nothing, get blamed. Sounds like market forces at work.
Any union news out there?
Oh, today is payback time for Bob. I'll let y'all predict which Bob it'll be.
No sign of expansion at plant where UAW dealt loss (miamiherald.com)
That's a well-written article. It doesn't contain typical slant through choice of words or phrasing in what it says.
I believe the articles says the UAW has another week to present their brief on the corker that Corker pulled to affect the election. So I don't think we're gonna know which Bob today.
I liken Corker et al's trying to damage the election and saying it's okay to someone on Wall STreet trying to affect a company's stock price and then saying it's just business as usual after they profited from the damage they did to the price.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
@imidazol97, I still think if everyone had just butted out, the UAW would have lost. All that political and real capital expended has mostly muddied the waters.
The issue ultimately boils down to what can the UAW offer the workers that they don't already enjoy?
VW is not going to do anything until the NLRB certifies the election. If they were to announce something now it would mean Corker was right and the VW management was lying after his statement. That would give the UAW ammunition against VW, saying the company undermined their attempt to unionize. I think they give it 6 month and then you will hear where your new diesel SUV will be built.
My guess is it WILL be built in TN. That Union plonker in Germany only made the one statement after the election and the UAW media wonks have spun it a hundred different ways. This guy is spot on with his analysis of the UAW vote in TN.
http://www.nooga.com/165640/why-i-dont-think-vw-really-wants-the-uaw/
Can you imagine the discussions and recriminations back home in Germany over this? I bet there's some people around Wolfsburg who remember the labor unrest in the last VW factory in Pennsylvania saying "I told you so".
What the union can do for the workers is to insure that what management might do to them, doesn't occur. Unions are by nature defensive positions. It's like saying "what does a trench do for an army when there is no artillery barrage?" Answer, nothing.
California is not going bust. California is going to leave the entire country in the dust. Why? Because it has tremendous resources in materials, labor and intellectual property.
Churchill once described the United States in a similar way: (paraphrase) "When we make a mistake, we stagger. When the USA makes a mistake, it just turns up the horsepower".
CA won't bust, but some busted parts of it might not see a renaissance anytime soon.
Regarding housing or COL, isn't that part of some people's broken ideal of "capitalism"? I've heard it many times from real estate cabal types in Vancouver especially, who will say something to the effect of "if you can't afford to live here, you shouldn't". Maybe the system is broken? Eugenics are something different entirely. This is just speculative movement in a very coddled and subsidized industry, and that industry tends to be very "conservative", not so much "liberal", as it usually wants to profit from the boom in a high tax high regulation (LA, SF, Seattle) area, then pay nothing to maintain what built them.
And in time, the public sector pension issue will become louder, too. Silicon Valley and LA will need to thrive to keep up with it.
Michigan tried to get VW to build when they decided on TN. Who in their right mind would build a new factory in a place like Michigan, with its spoiled workforce that feel they are entitled to $100k a year factory job? The people in TN are smart enough to know that the $20 per hour they get after 3 years gives them a better lifestyle than the $19.28 per hour GM is paying their new workers after 6 years. The UAW really had NOTHING to offer the VW workers. VW USA knew that and just played the good guy.
Eugenics was the wrong word. The rich of the SF/SV are more into genocide of the poor. When you have people buying up the old places forcing out the long time low income tenants it is a form of economic genocide. That is what is going on in San Francisco. Some of the worst homeless problems in the US all under the noses of the Limo Liberals and over paid public employees that control the city.
http://www.sfgate.com/homeless/
SAN FRANCISCO -- – In case you've missed it, Silicon Valley has its own version of Occupy Wall Street.
This culture war lacks rampant arrests, bursts of violence or national media coverage, but the dissent of anti-gentrification groups over income and housing is creating a stir just the same here.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/2014/01/27/san-franciscos-tech-gentrification-problem-google-apple-facebook/4896519/
You are living in the distant past. Here's reality, 2014 style:
"Since 2007, the United Auto Workers has agreed to let automakers hire new workers who forgo traditional retiree health care, equal pay for equal work, job security and pensions in exchange for jobs that would have gone to Mexico or Asia. About 13 percent of GM, Ford Motor Co. (F) and Chrysler Group LLC hourly workers, or 15,155 employees, now are entry level.
As U.S. automakers hire new, lower-cost workers the UAW has posted two straight years of membership gains.Now, as many as half the workers at the Michigan factory assembling Sonic and Verano sub-compact cars make less than the $19.10 hourly average U.S. manufacturing wage and lack traditional union retiree benefits."
"The compromises will close the labor-cost gap at GM, Ford and Chrysler factories with those at U.S. plants for Toyota Motor Corp. (7203) and Honda Motor Co., Dziczek said. By 2015, GM’s total cost for wages and benefits will be about $59 an hour, compared with $56 at Toyota. In 2007, GM estimated the gap with Toyota at $25 to $30 an hour. Chrysler’s average hourly labor costs may fall by 2015 to $53, lower than Toyota’s, CAR said."
I am not living in the past at all. The reality is VW workers in TN are doing better than their counterparts in Michigan and elsewhere under UAW agreements. Even the Socialist concede those facts. VW workers voting for the UAW would not be in their best interest.
Before the vote, workers became aware of a clause in the Volkswagen-UAW “neutrality agreement” promising the automaker the union would engage in “maintaining and where possible enhancing the cost advantages and other competitive advantages that [Volkswagen] enjoys relative to its competitors in the United States and North America.”
In other words, the UAW told Volkswagen it would keep wages “competitive” with the Detroit-based automakers. The Chattanooga workers could only take this as a threat; full-time workers hired at the Volkswagen plant in 2011 earn about $5 more per hour than their counterparts at General Motors, Ford and Chrysler who were hired over the last six years.
Workers at the Tennessee factory—many of whom worked in northern plants before—know full well that the UAW has overseen the destruction of hundreds of thousands of jobs, the closing of hundreds of factories and the abandonment of virtually every gain won by auto workers.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/17/tenn-f17.html
I am not living in the past at all. The reality is VW workers in TN are doing better than their counterparts in Michigan and elsewhere under UAW agreements.
And no income tax in the State of Tennessee. The sales tax is higher than some other states. And IIRC it's on tax out food and groceries as well, things that are exempt in Ohio.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Genocide? I think we're getting silly now
SF is a housing train wreck, with weird illogical rent controls and regulations for old and new buildings alike. I don't know if anywhere else compares - even Manhattan is better managed, probably.
If any occupy-style movement was real, its target area would look like Kiev as of late, not what seems to often be a bunch of kidults hanging around with ipads. That real vision might slowly inch towards possibility as most take it on the chin for a few.
They keep the protesters mellowed out with Pot. Of course that is killing off the salmon and making the water shortage worse. A person has to be blind not to see the problems over paid Public Employees with their INSANE Union benefits and pensions are causing.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/01/08/260788863/californias-pot-farms-could-leave-salmon-runs-truly-smoked
Michigan is now a Right to Work state, just like Tennessee.
And even better, we're a Right to Work for Cheaper state, and we even enjoy having an income tax to pay.
It will be interesting when 2015 rolls around to see how many UAW members take advantage of the RTW laws in Michigan. My understanding is they cannot drop out except at contract time. I did not realize how many Federal Employees do not belong to the Unions. A friend of ours has worked 25 years in the SSI office. She said most of the people there are not part of the Union.
UAW's Bob King is to blame for Michigan RTW.
http://www.redstate.com/2012/12/13/dog-bites-man-man-bites-back-the-uaws-king-made-michigans-right-to-work-bed/
The 7% on food for us would be less than 10% of what we paid in CA state income tax last year. TN has higher property tax than some neighbors. The VW workers could cross into Georgia to shop where sales tax is only 4%. Far and away the worst state for taxes is CA.
http://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/taxes/T054-S001-10-least-tax-friendly-states-in-the-u-s/index.html
North Georgia was cheaper for gas and plenty of other stuff and only about 5 or so miles away from me when I lived in Chattanooga.
Never went there to shop. Tis a good place to get furniture and carpets down in Dalton. The "real" shoppers would go to the malls in Atlanta, a couple of hours away.
Boise is about 40 miles from sales tax free Oregon. Some people shopped there, but we never bothered. There's more of an impact up in the panhandle where the minimum wage in Washington is higher so some people remain Idaho residents but commute across the state line to work.
Besides King's legacy at losing the VW vote (at least this go-round), the real decision that will have long lasting impact, as noted in your Redstate link, will be his ill-fated attempt to add union rights to the Michigan constitution thereby solidifying the opposition who got the RTW law passed.
Socialists? You mean in the Ukraine or Norway?
America does not operate under a socialist economic system. Are you living overseas at present?
One's labor, as a worker, is a commodity one sells at market price, under negotiation--pure capitalism, happening right before your eyes.
The 7% on food for us would be less than 10% of what we paid in CA state income tax last year.
Errrrr, that would be 7% + the 2.75% for the typical city. I.e., Smyrna, 2.75 + 7; Murfreeboro, 2.75%+7%. That's 9.75%.
Yes, most low income tax states make it up with sales tax and/or property taxes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Same in CA. We have four different sales tax figures within 20 miles of me. When looking at potential places to move. I look at income tax and the breaks they give on Pension income. Property tax is a real biggie. That is what took TX off my list. 2.4% of appraised value is extortion in my book. Next some states the property tax is set by the city, county or state. Some even go by township within the same city. TN in general has high property tax. KY has better property tax and forgives income tax on first $48k of pension income. You also have to think about estate and inheritance taxes. Then of course demographics and crime in the location you pick. Last but not least good HC facilities & cost of utilities.
To keep on subject, the place you pick needs to have the Public Employee unions under control not the other way around.
Having read the "best retirement" articles for years now, with the exception of the first four of five places listed in that Forbes article, my feeling is that it's mostly a wash. If the income taxes don't get you the mill rate will.
Live where you like (okay, unfortunately I can't afford Malibu or Manhattan, but you get my drift).
"Complacency reigns during periods of tight labor supply and prosperity, when the workforce figures, why siphon off part of my paycheck in union dues, since I'm already well-paid and reasonably secure? To a certain extent this was a factor in Chattanooga, where workers considered themselves well-paid and well-treated, and therefore couldn't fully comprehend what more union membership would get them."
Glad to hear the economy is booming "below the bridge". :-)
Are unions necessary? (LA Times)
I wonder if overall public sector pensions are not the real issue - as they go far beyond union membership. So many seem underfunded when one examines contributions vs payouts, and how so many in that sector are able to retire young with huge benefits. Maybe they need to be forced into a defined contribution system like everyone else.
Everyone seems afraid to stand up to the Teachers, Police and Firemen unions. Why when they are bankrupting cities across the nation? I totally agree they need to become part of the workforce that is investing in their own retirement. We passed up raises to increase the amount going into our Teamster pension. Some did not like it but now they have a decent pension. At least for now. The Union pensions are pushing Vallejo back into bankruptcy court.
Just days before last week’s Vallejo’s election, retiring council member Marti Brown penned an op-ed in the SacBee worrying that the Jumpstart coalition would bring the city “to its knees again.” A lifelong Democrat, Brown argued in the op-ed that “the Democratic Party has become too dependent on public safety unions to fund its political campaigns.”
Brown predicted that if elected the city’s pro-union Democrats would commit to re-instituting binding arbitration, the process by which outside arbitrators break negotiating deadlocks between governments and government-employee unions. “It’s fiscally irresponsible for unelected officials to make binding financial decisions on the salaries and benefits of public employees that we all have to pay for,” Brown noted, after observing that previously arbitration had been a ‘nightmare’ for the city.
The city is currently struggling with a $5.2 million budget deficit, and pension costs have risen from 11 percent of the city’s general fund in 2008, when Vallejo entered bankruptcy, to 18 percent this year.
http://www.publicsectorinc.org/2013/11/did-vallejo-voters-jumpstart-work-on-a-new-road-to-bankruptcy/
I would say the only one naive is Hiltzik. He is like most Americans unable to distinguish between trade (private) Unions and Public employee Unions. Trade Union membership is declining while public employee union membership is growing at an alarming pace. And they are the evil ones that are not accountable to the tax payer, other than via the elected officials which the Unions are the largest contributors. Politicians are supposed to be looking out for their constituents. Instead they look out for the Unions that hand them big wads of cash to win another election. It is no wonder the TN GOP made an all out effort to keep out the UAW. The UAW is the enemy of the GOP. Maybe if King had schmoozed some GOP folks it might have gone the other way. Though I doubt it as TN has had it with that brand of politicians.
Everyone that thinks Public Employee Unions are a good thing should read this piece by a a Vallejo Council member watching the city head back into bankruptcy. This is happening all over the USA to cities large and small.
Like most people who run for office, I ran because I thought I could make a positive difference in government.
This year, I decided not to seek re-election to the Vallejo City Council after my first term.
http://www.sacbee.com/2013/11/02/5870654/viewpoints-vallejo-poised-to-make.html
Naive democrat? Surprise. Surprise. I suspect there is much more to this than the concept the public unions are bad and other unions are good. I listen to an on-going problem in Cincinnati with the city having illegally set a requirement for only union companies to be able to bid for county-wide sewer projects. The union is so good that the city didn't use it for their fiasco in progress of trolley cars, but they are using it to make the county taxpayers pay more for the EPA-required sewer projects. A discussion indicated there is an additional $6 charge per hour for healthcare working out to $13,000 per year for each worker per government regulations. I can supply the pod cast from the radio.
But let's take a look at gereral costs. Gagrice cited an article about a superintendent with 1500 students and $320,000 salary plus benefits. I checked out 5000 student district's superintendent and her pay is $128,000. I suspect she gets a car allowance because past superintendents did get that. Maybe CA has just lost its mind on public employees pay.
Also take a look at the pension fund payments if they are not required like the state government payments here. Some self-funded pensions here, Cincinnati for one, are low on funding because the city kept putting off the required paying the funds in--because it was more fund to spend the money on something else rather than fund the pensions of the workers. Now they owe huge amounts to the pension fund, and they are hoping to put in some money and have the state taxpayers take over the deficit in the pension fund by absorbing the workers into a state pension fund. That's the taxpayers subsidizing the city even more than the two huge stadiums for the Reds and Bengals we helped pay for.
Also take a look at the bonds they floated in the past. Stockton, and several cities around the country including Detroit, got caught playing with Wall Street funny paper tricks. I would have to research the topic with my son, but there was something about a low interest rate which could rise. The rates rise and the city can't afford the payments? The State of Ohio was being encouraged to pass a law preventing entities from doing the same kind of gambling.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,