I know the chicken tax was extended to all imported light trucks. After more research, it only applies to 2 door light trucks. So you are correct in that the German SUV's aren't subject to the chicken tax.
But IMHO, the reason BMW and MB opened SUV plants here was because they knew the market would not include the ROW. Further, they could eliminate much of the currency issues by manufacturing where the market is.
Indeed, it is kind of funny how some of the most profitable makers in the world have been virtually dependent on union labor, and still manage to run in the black. Different worlds, I know - one has a lot less adversarial struggles between workers and managers, less of a socio-economic chasm, and no doubt less inflated exec compensation as well.
The German makers in the US are about logistics, and mostly the manufacture of models that probably move 85% of their volume in NA and China. I have yet to see credible info stating they are escaping unions.
@robr2 said:
Interestingly enough, the US based German plants build about 1/10th the number of cars that they do in Germany which suggests that even with the unions, they are happy with the profits of the German plants.
Well if the people of Tennessee don't mind the state giving VW a couple hundred million in incentives, then they should be happy with whatever the overall consequences of a non-union operation. Somehow I can't get it out of my mind that the government is putting money in one pocket of the people's pants and taking it out of the other.
@Mr_Shiftright said:
Well if the people of Tennessee don't mind the state giving VW a couple hundred million in incentives, then they should be happy with whatever the overall consequences of a non-union operation. Somehow I can't get it out of my mind that the government is putting money in one pocket of the people's pants and taking it out of the other.
I think the incentives offered by states is just good business -- with the big and somewhat questionable assumption that somebody competent in government (ha!) has done the math and figured out that the net benefit is still large and positive for a state. They are basically discounting their taxes to get a large employer in the door and boost the economy. The economic boost adds jobs not only at the plant, but all over the place where the more, affluent workers go to eat and get services. So there's a quite large ripple effect that should be adding more to the state coffers than it cost in the long run.
I am not sure we have to try and read much into why workers didn't want the UAW into the VW plant it is just clear that they didn't. It is also clear that the different plants that came to the South came to avoid the problems with the plants and workers in the North. Many of those problems have to be laid at the feet of the Unions. ( I didn't say none of the problems were from management.) But that being an aside to the issue of VW. I have had three generations of VWs and I bought each one after being told that the problems I had with the previous generation were fixed by the time I got the next one. None of that proved t be true. So now I rely on sites like JD powers and customer ratings. Unless a car is above "Industry average." I tend to give it a pass. VW hasn't been above the Industry average for as long as I have researched JD Powers. They are often pretty close to the bottom. Until they get above average I doubt if I will be giving one a second thought. JMHO
@boaz47 said:
I am not sure we have to try and read much into why workers didn't want the UAW into the VW plant it is just clear that they didn't. It is also clear that the different plants that came to the South came to avoid the problems with the plants and workers in the North. Many of those problems have to be laid at the feet of the Unions.
I don't think the vote count was the whole story. Some of those interviewed after the election said they voted for the UAW, but were not unhappy the vote went the way it did. A large number of the workforce did not even bother to vote. I think the UAW is crazy to try again, as I would bet they lose by a much higher number with the current expansion plans.
It is not even debatable why the foreign automakers have settled mostly in the South. Good workforce, without that entitlement mentality so prevalent in the Midwest and other regions of the USA.
Next year will be make or break for the UAW. The rumblings I hear from those working at GM & C under UAW contracts is anything but keeping a low profile. They want to get back to the old high pay, pensions and full HC, of the past. Naturally the 2nd class UAW workers want what the old timers are getting. That was a HUGE mistake to screw the new hires to keep the status quo for the long time employees.
Hm, historically the Southern states have always gotten more back from the feds than they've contributed, Mississippi being the shining example. Not to mention other entitlements like TVA.
The only other place I've lived (so far ) that's been worse was Alaska.
@stever said:
Hm, historically the Southern states have always gotten more back from the feds than they've contributed, Mississippi being the shining example. Not to mention other entitlements like TVA.
The only other place I've lived (so far ) that's been worse was Alaska.
I think Hawaii now holds the title for least contributed most gained. It is hard to really determine, as they consider military bases as contributing to the state. While it is true, when they close a base it takes the city/state a while to adjust. They also show it on a per capita basis, when the average person may never benefit, An example, Fort Campbell KY which is mostly in TN, yet they show the money going to KY.
If I lived in the area, I would go after a TVA Union job. They pay outrageously well for the overall COL in TN/KY
If I lived in the area, I would go after a TVA Union job.
heh, now don't go speaking ill of my brother, although he wasn't union afaik. :-)
Cost of living doesn't seem all that cheap there compared to most other places. Gas usually is cheaper, and housing is okay, and no income tax, but they get you on sales tax and other stuff.
@stever said:
Cost of living doesn't seem all that cheap there compared to most other places. Gas usually is cheaper, and housing is okay, and no income tax, but they get you on sales tax and other stuff.
When we stayed at Paris Landing State Park last year, I talked to a grounds keeper. He has a home on the KY lake just North of the lodge. He is just across from KY. So he shops in KY to get the lower sales tax. TN taxes food also, KY does not. So as always, location, location, location.
I have no problem with Unions. Just when they become part of the government and collude to control elections. They become part of our crony pseudo capitalistic oligarchy.
@Mr_Shiftright said:
Well if the people of Tennessee don't mind the state giving VW a couple hundred million in incentives, then they should be happy with whatever the overall consequences of a non-union operation. Somehow I can't get it out of my mind that the government is putting money in one pocket of the people's pants and taking it out of the other.
While it is certainly ripe for corruption, I think if done correctly, it is more like planting a seed in the hope of an eventual harvest that pays back much more.
They gave VW a few hundred million (yes, taxpayer money) to bring an auto plant to TN...everyone knows that a successful auto plant brings better paying jobs to the area, will teach them SOME kind of skill besides farming, the better pay will probably result in better housing than run-down trailers (i.e more taxes to the local area) and the other side businesses that will bring even more $$$ to the area...not just the suppliers who send parts to the main plant, but the other businesses that grow such as restaurants, supermarkets, dry cleaners, etc.
It would not surprise me if that 100-million-plus seed money does not return BILLIONs over the next 10-20 years...also remember, the property where the plant sits was probably wilderness that paid little or no property tax to begin with, so giving VW a 10 year moratorium on ppty taxes was almost cost-free to the state, since they weren't getting any tax money from it anyway...
The only time it backfires is if the automaker fails and closes the plant...oh, and if the plant is built in the middle of nowhere, they do not have to deal with slums, crime, etc, whereas if they built it in Detroit, well, what more needs to be said???
Don't forget, down South here, everybody is armed anyway...:):):):)
The luring of jobs into a state by granting tax benefits has never yielded all that large an increase in jobs--perhaps a 1 to 2% gain. It seems, on paper at least, that this arrangement benefits the corporations more than the general population of the state.
One way to get people to vote for things they might normally shun, and even in some cases, to vote against their own best interests, is to dangle the idea of job security or, conversely, the threat of job loss. The unions used this carrot/stick to gain power, and now some states are using it for a political harvest.
I would say this will be a big plus for TN and surrounding area:
Volkswagen's expansion will also benefit area schools, Coppinger said.
"One of the things that is important to me is public education," he said. "What this agreement will mean annually will be an additional $1.5 million as a result of VW being able to pay the education tax."
The company currently pays $2.8 million, so a total of $4.3 million will soon come into the community to support education, which helps strengthen the area's workforce, he also said.
Never say die:
UAW factor?
Reporters asked politicians about the United Auto Workers union during Tuesday's event because some union news has coincided with the expansion announcements.
Members of the new United Auto Workers chapter Local 42 are passing out cards at Volkswagen in an effort to gain support from other VW employees and get the right to bargain collectively, Nooga.com reported Tuesday.
That news came a day after the expansion announcement and a few days after UAW leaders announced the formation of Local 42.
Corker called the UAW a "nonfactor," and Haslam said that the union had nothing to do with the negotiations between the state and the company.
While offering tax breaks and other incentives may not always result in more jobs it is a draw that the Union can't offer.
Times seem to have changed from the days when unions were formed by members to address real or even perceived wrongs by a large employer. Unions themselves have simply become another layer of management or more to the point another form of government. They are no longer separate from the political process they are movers and shakers in that process.
Because business is designed as a capitalist venture moving to a state with strong union presence is a detriment and so the union has become more like a parasite that has to attach itself to a healthy business to get established or even survive.
I simply don't think this assessment has escaped the employees in the VW plant in Tenn. Anyone that can read a book or has access to a computer can see the private sector has a built in defense to overly, in the opinion of the accountants, demanding union. They can always move to where the union isn't and to a state that will court them. This method is pretty successful as seen in the numbers of union employees in the private sector, under 7 percent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_States
when this happens a whole community can lose jobs and the sting will last for years, look at the rust belt.
There on vicious cycle that unions are responsible for to a point. As labor costs go up the cost of the product has to go up and the profits have to go down. Unless you can find a cheaper way to produce the product. Often called DE-contenting. But even more importantly the wages of people that buy the product have to go up to afford the product or they will simply buy a different product.
I simply don't see how the UAW can overcome the mood towards the union in this economy and in that part of the country.
@stever said:
Hm, historically the Southern states have always gotten more back from the feds than they've contributed, Mississippi being the shining example. Not to mention other entitlements like TVA.
I've heard that, but also heard that one reason those states get more back from the feds is because of an abundance of military bases and other government installations.
Also, I remember seeing one map that showed which areas paid more than what they got back, and which paid less. The scary thing was, most of our crops were grown in those "subsidized" areas. So unless those "non-subsidized" areas want to start eating Chinese drywall, they'd better realize that some of those subsidies are for a good reason!
I've heard that if it wasn't for subsidies, milk would cost about twice what it does already.
I think there's a growing trend that is showing us that any movements toward a community's well being will come from grassroots kind of actions, whether it be a good deal for workers or the price of milk. More governance of the "good kind" will become much more localized, and perhaps not even formalized by elections. Trusting one's welfare to a corporation or a union no longer seems like a wise course of action. Either one can exploit you.
@andre1969, it's changed a bit, but a lot of military pork went that direction because of "senators for life", the notable ones in my time being John Stennis of MS and Ted Stevens of AK.
As far as food growing, the unions have nothing over the protections the peanut farmers have.
@stever said:
andre1969, it's changed a bit, but a lot of military pork went that direction because of "senators for life", the notable ones in my time being John Stennis of MS and Ted Stevens of AK.
As far as food growing, the unions have nothing over the protections the peanut farmers have.
Peanut Farmers, did Jimmy Carter get that in when he was Prez??? Took forever to get rid of the tobacco Rip-offs. At least I like Peanut butter. Has to be Adams Crunchy. NOTHING added. I salt it myself with Hawaiian Sea salt. ;-) Hope it is not UAW made.
That came later. "According to government data compiled by the Environmental Working Group (EWG), the farm owned by former President Carter and his family collected $272,288 in subsidy payments from 1995 through 2012." (Daily Signal)
Some of the protectionism in farming makes the Chicken Tax look downright reasonable.
@stever said:
Some of the protectionism in farming makes the Chicken Tax look downright reasonable.
There have been protections for farmers since the 50s in my memory at least. The things that were put into place to benefit the small farmer then end up being manipulated and reworked in the laws so they benefit the big farmer operations by corporations, just as we see today. The number of small farmers has deteriorated drastically. This is true whether it's chickens, pigs, turkeys, wheat, corn, beans. The taxpayer monies end up subsidizing the capitalist corporations under the disguise of helping those poor farmers. And it's not just peanuts we're talking about in terms of the crop as well as the amount of cash.
Well, it was Fitzsimmons who sprung Hoffa, the catch being that the pardon prevented him from being active in the union. Hoffa was appealing that restriction when he disappeared.
The special treatment given to the UAW over the salaries workers and the labor union IBEW that was the assembly union here at Moraine plant GM is still in the news. The Delphi salaried workers didn't get special funding out of tax monies and are still wanting reparations.
"While Delphi was in bankruptcy protection in 2009, it relinquished responsibility for all its employee pensions to the federally backed PBGC. That move resulted in lower pension payments to retirees. But while General Motors — which once owned Delphi — contributed to union-represented retirees to bolster their pensions, salaried retirees were left with substantially reduced pensions, some cut by up to 70 percent."
@imidazol97 said:
The special treatment given to the UAW over the salaries workers and the labor union IBEW that was the assembly union here at Moraine plant GM is still in the news. The Delphi salaried workers didn't get special funding out of tax monies and are still wanting reparations.
"While Delphi was in bankruptcy protection in 2009, it relinquished responsibility for all its employee pensions to the federally backed PBGC. That move resulted in lower pension payments to retirees. But while General Motors — which once owned Delphi — contributed to union-represented retirees to bolster their pensions, salaried retirees were left with substantially reduced pensions, some cut by up to 70 percent."
I have not forgotten that agregious miscarriage of justice by the Obama Administration. The tax payers GAVE the UAW pension plan $27 Billion plus to keep the 600k retirees at full pension WITH their gold plated HC plan. Totally against all bankruptcy laws. Don't forget the Indiana Teacher's pension plan and others that were cheated when Obama screwed the GM Bond holders. That whole bailout was nothing more than paybacks by the Democrats to the UAW for their huge contributions to the Party. I know some here would like to spin it as good for the country. It is a done deal and I don't see any improvement for the middle class working stiff. In fact the last 5 years has only driven US all deeper in debt or deflated our standard of living.
I guess I find it hard to believe that a plant would only return 1-2%...assuming that the plant is viable for 20 years, between all the additional payroll (assuming prior to the plant the only available jobs were flipping burgers at the Golden Arches), the eventual property taxes, and all the other support businesses that grow up around it, plus the possibility for better housing than trailers, I would think (without any hard evidence to back it up) that the few hundred million upfront cost would be "paid back" (re-couped thru other means) within five years...
I am also assuming that the plant IS built in the wilderness, where there were no interstate exits, so building a plant and a dedicated exit was no problem, and the property tax collected prior to the plant was very low (zoned agriculture)...so even the tax abatement for 10 years really costs them nothing...
@imidazol97 said:
The special treatment given to the UAW over the salaries workers and the labor union IBEW that was the assembly union here at Moraine plant GM is still in the news. The Delphi salaried workers didn't get special funding out of tax monies and are still wanting reparations.
"While Delphi was in bankruptcy protection in 2009, it relinquished responsibility for all its employee pensions to the federally backed PBGC. That move resulted in lower pension payments to retirees. But while General Motors — which once owned Delphi — contributed to union-represented retirees to bolster their pensions, salaried retirees were left with substantially reduced pensions, some cut by up to 70 percent."
I would be very nervous if I had been promised a pension. They are unsustainable. The last gravy train is government workers but even that is going to collapse at some point. I'm happy taking my chances on my own IRAs and 401K's. I'm subject to the market risk but at least if major decisions and screwups are made it's my responsibility, not a bunch of bureaucrats that were too stupid to get real jobs.
@tlong said:
I would be very nervous if I had been promised a pension. They are unsustainable. The last gravy train is government workers but even that is going to collapse at some point. I'm happy taking my chances on my own IRAs and 401K's. I'm subject to the market risk but at least if major decisions and screwups are made it's my responsibility, not a bunch of bureaucrats that were too stupid to get real jobs.
I agree with you on having control of my own future. I don't think people in many unions realize just how precarius the future of their union pensions are. Which makes the UAW pension bailout even more troubling. Are the tax payers going to bail out the 100s of underfunded pensions?
How many millions of tax payers are being screwed over bailing out public employee Pension plans like CALPers here in CA? How many of those tax payers do not have a cushy retirement to count on at the tax payers expense? What part of unsustainable don't these Union Con artists know about? Or they know like the UAW and are desperate to get more member employers paying into those ponzi schemes. Companies like VW have to know that by getting involved in a Union they are responsible to keep that union pension plan solvent. To the point of paying in more than the contract they are under requires. It is no wonder Big corps like Walmart fight to the death to keep the Unions out.
@tlong said:
I would be very nervous if I had been promised a pension. They are unsustainable. The last gravy train is government workers but even that is going to collapse at some point. I'm happy taking my chances on my own IRAs and 401K's. I'm subject to the market risk but at least if major decisions and screwups are made it's my responsibility, not a bunch of bureaucrats that were too stupid to get real jobs.
I'll be getting a small pension from my ~6 years of service with McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing back in the 1990's. Sometimes over the years I wondered if I would have been better off staying with them rather than switching companies back in 2000. I got a 10% raise, better 401K, and 7 weeks of severance pay when I made the switch.
Well, the Boeing pension is not COLA'd, so it erodes over time. And, apparently not very solvent either, because I heard that Boeing ended up freezing the pension for new hires awhile back. But then, just recently, they're going to freeze the pensions for current employees!
So, just because you get promised a pension, it's still not a guarantee. What's the old saying...promise in one hand, poop in the other, and see which one fills up quicker?
FWIW, my pension for those 5.83 years of service will come out to about $349.20 per month, in 2035 when I turn 65. If I was still with Boeing, I'd have about 20 years in now, so I still doubt if that pension would be very much.
Losing the "security" of a pension and being forced to fend for my own for retirement security was probably the best thing that ever happened to me, as it forced me to get serious about saving.
@andre1969 said:
I'll be getting a small pension from my ~6 years of service with McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing back in the 1990's. Sometimes over the years I wondered if I would have been better off staying with them rather than switching companies back in 2000. I got a 10% raise, better 401K, and 7 weeks of severance pay when I made the switch.
Yours is the typical reason so many companies have bailed out of their defined pension plans. When the Feds mandated the 5 year vesting it put many companies in a bind. It raised their required funding level and forced them to dump more cash into the pension fund. Many companies at that point paid off with early retirements and lump sum payments into 401K accounts. I know when I left Ma Bell with 9+ years service the vesting was 15 years. So I got nothing. A guy I worked with had 16 years with Bell and got a little over $200 per month when he turned 65. In fact he was surprised when he got the check in the mail. He stayed on after I retired until he was 75. He gets a pretty hefty Teamster retirement.
@imidazol97 said:
The special treatment given to the UAW over the salaries workers and the labor union IBEW that was the assembly union here at Moraine plant GM is still in the news. The Delphi salaried workers didn't get special funding out of tax monies and are still wanting reparations.
"While Delphi was in bankruptcy protection in 2009, it relinquished responsibility for all its employee pensions to the federally backed PBGC. That move resulted in lower pension payments to retirees. But while General Motors — which once owned Delphi — contributed to union-represented retirees to bolster their pensions, salaried retirees were left with substantially reduced pensions, some cut by up to 70 percent."
They knew what they were getting when they crossed over to the dark side into management. It just shows you corporations do not care who's lives they ruin.
@stever said:
Good to see you rockylee, er, Rockford. Fin's around, probably out cruising today.
@stever - I found his page and wrote him a message (inbox). Good to see you also, Steve. Haven't been in the forums in quite a while but like the new layout. Just need to get use to it. My only suggestion is to perhaps make it easier to find the car forums as it took some navigating to land here if you guys do an update.
Using "Recent Discussions" in the box at the right will show topics that are active. That's
one way to note the topics you might be interested in.
Another is to use the blue link "Car forums" at top left. It leads to some search
features that you can use to find topics by brand or by key words.
@imidazol97 said:
Using "Recent Discussions" in the box at the right will show topics that are active. That's
one way to note the topics you might be interested in.
Another is to use the blue link "Car forums" at top left. It leads to some search
features that you can use to find topics by brand or by key words.
I do find it funny that those who openly bash such benefits are usually older folks who actually collect such benefits, either from unions or the public sector. There are definite subsets within the public sector who are vocally against "big government" and any kind of social goods. Nobody will accuse them of understanding any facet of economics.
Corporations are people too. A wealthy self-made bootstrapper who built it himself told me so, he's my friend.
Yeah, makes me glad I'm male and not female, so I don't have a Ute for the corporations to micro-manage!
And, I've noticed a definite shift, over the years, in the way companies treat their employees. We're definitely a lot more disposable nowadays. I came pretty close to getting disposed of around this time last year.
My wife's paternal grandfather worked for Central Hudson in upstate NY for ~45 years and never missed a day of work. Her father moved around and worked for himself some now and then. My wife followed in her dad's footsteps - 10 jobs in 30 years. She's got good memories of all the times she quit to do a road trip - no one knows where granddad's gold watch wound up.
Glad you are back Rocky; just to bring you up to date the UAW assembled content of my automotive fleet has decreased from 20% to 17%. Motorcycles retain their 50-50 British-Italian split, while my bicycle is also British.
Might buy one of those Fiat Jeeps however...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I think it's only fair to view the UAW in its historical context. Careers of people like Walter Reuther are truly amazing--I mean, what he went through and what he accomplished. Few people have enough background information on the social and cultural context in which the UAW operated in the 30s through the 70s.
@fintail said:
I do find it funny that those who openly bash such benefits are usually older folks who actually collect such benefits, either from unions or the public sector. There are definite subsets within the public sector who are vocally against "big government" and any kind of social goods. Nobody will accuse them of understanding any facet of economics.
My Teamster Union is much like our government. I did not agree with the way they did things. And I tried to make changes when possible by participating and getting elected to the E Board. I have never said that private Unions did not do good for the working man. Only that public employee Unions are raping the tax payers. I vote to change bad policy and politicians. And I am very thankful for the benefits I recieve from being in the Union. Sadly the Federal government has made regulations that will kill any chance of future union members having what I have. We started feeling the results of those poor regulations 25 years ago.
Comments
I don't think the Chicken Tax applied to the German SUVs. Only small PU trucks. We are a major market for SUVs for sure.
I know the chicken tax was extended to all imported light trucks. After more research, it only applies to 2 door light trucks. So you are correct in that the German SUV's aren't subject to the chicken tax.
But IMHO, the reason BMW and MB opened SUV plants here was because they knew the market would not include the ROW. Further, they could eliminate much of the currency issues by manufacturing where the market is.
Indeed, it is kind of funny how some of the most profitable makers in the world have been virtually dependent on union labor, and still manage to run in the black. Different worlds, I know - one has a lot less adversarial struggles between workers and managers, less of a socio-economic chasm, and no doubt less inflated exec compensation as well.
The German makers in the US are about logistics, and mostly the manufacture of models that probably move 85% of their volume in NA and China. I have yet to see credible info stating they are escaping unions.
Well if the people of Tennessee don't mind the state giving VW a couple hundred million in incentives, then they should be happy with whatever the overall consequences of a non-union operation. Somehow I can't get it out of my mind that the government is putting money in one pocket of the people's pants and taking it out of the other.
I think the incentives offered by states is just good business -- with the big and somewhat questionable assumption that somebody competent in government (ha!) has done the math and figured out that the net benefit is still large and positive for a state. They are basically discounting their taxes to get a large employer in the door and boost the economy. The economic boost adds jobs not only at the plant, but all over the place where the more, affluent workers go to eat and get services. So there's a quite large ripple effect that should be adding more to the state coffers than it cost in the long run.
I am not sure we have to try and read much into why workers didn't want the UAW into the VW plant it is just clear that they didn't. It is also clear that the different plants that came to the South came to avoid the problems with the plants and workers in the North. Many of those problems have to be laid at the feet of the Unions. ( I didn't say none of the problems were from management.) But that being an aside to the issue of VW. I have had three generations of VWs and I bought each one after being told that the problems I had with the previous generation were fixed by the time I got the next one. None of that proved t be true. So now I rely on sites like JD powers and customer ratings. Unless a car is above "Industry average." I tend to give it a pass. VW hasn't been above the Industry average for as long as I have researched JD Powers. They are often pretty close to the bottom. Until they get above average I doubt if I will be giving one a second thought. JMHO
I don't think the vote count was the whole story. Some of those interviewed after the election said they voted for the UAW, but were not unhappy the vote went the way it did. A large number of the workforce did not even bother to vote. I think the UAW is crazy to try again, as I would bet they lose by a much higher number with the current expansion plans.
It is not even debatable why the foreign automakers have settled mostly in the South. Good workforce, without that entitlement mentality so prevalent in the Midwest and other regions of the USA.
Next year will be make or break for the UAW. The rumblings I hear from those working at GM & C under UAW contracts is anything but keeping a low profile. They want to get back to the old high pay, pensions and full HC, of the past. Naturally the 2nd class UAW workers want what the old timers are getting. That was a HUGE mistake to screw the new hires to keep the status quo for the long time employees.
Hm, historically the Southern states have always gotten more back from the feds than they've contributed, Mississippi being the shining example. Not to mention other entitlements like TVA.
The only other place I've lived (so far
) that's been worse was Alaska.
I think Hawaii now holds the title for least contributed most gained. It is hard to really determine, as they consider military bases as contributing to the state. While it is true, when they close a base it takes the city/state a while to adjust. They also show it on a per capita basis, when the average person may never benefit, An example, Fort Campbell KY which is mostly in TN, yet they show the money going to KY.
If I lived in the area, I would go after a TVA Union job. They pay outrageously well for the overall COL in TN/KY
heh, now don't go speaking ill of my brother, although he wasn't union afaik. :-)
Cost of living doesn't seem all that cheap there compared to most other places. Gas usually is cheaper, and housing is okay, and no income tax, but they get you on sales tax and other stuff.
When we stayed at Paris Landing State Park last year, I talked to a grounds keeper. He has a home on the KY lake just North of the lodge. He is just across from KY. So he shops in KY to get the lower sales tax. TN taxes food also, KY does not. So as always, location, location, location.
I have no problem with Unions. Just when they become part of the government and collude to control elections. They become part of our crony pseudo capitalistic oligarchy.
You need to move to Four Corners so you can pick and choose your poison.
Guess I'll have to start checking out Ciudad Juárez for my dental work, car repair, and furniture and flower pot buying.
While it is certainly ripe for corruption, I think if done correctly, it is more like planting a seed in the hope of an eventual harvest that pays back much more.
They gave VW a few hundred million (yes, taxpayer money) to bring an auto plant to TN...everyone knows that a successful auto plant brings better paying jobs to the area, will teach them SOME kind of skill besides farming, the better pay will probably result in better housing than run-down trailers (i.e more taxes to the local area) and the other side businesses that will bring even more $$$ to the area...not just the suppliers who send parts to the main plant, but the other businesses that grow such as restaurants, supermarkets, dry cleaners, etc.
It would not surprise me if that 100-million-plus seed money does not return BILLIONs over the next 10-20 years...also remember, the property where the plant sits was probably wilderness that paid little or no property tax to begin with, so giving VW a 10 year moratorium on ppty taxes was almost cost-free to the state, since they weren't getting any tax money from it anyway...
The only time it backfires is if the automaker fails and closes the plant...oh, and if the plant is built in the middle of nowhere, they do not have to deal with slums, crime, etc, whereas if they built it in Detroit, well, what more needs to be said???
Don't forget, down South here, everybody is armed anyway...:):):):)
The luring of jobs into a state by granting tax benefits has never yielded all that large an increase in jobs--perhaps a 1 to 2% gain. It seems, on paper at least, that this arrangement benefits the corporations more than the general population of the state.
One way to get people to vote for things they might normally shun, and even in some cases, to vote against their own best interests, is to dangle the idea of job security or, conversely, the threat of job loss. The unions used this carrot/stick to gain power, and now some states are using it for a political harvest.
I would say this will be a big plus for TN and surrounding area:
Volkswagen's expansion will also benefit area schools, Coppinger said.
"One of the things that is important to me is public education," he said. "What this agreement will mean annually will be an additional $1.5 million as a result of VW being able to pay the education tax."
The company currently pays $2.8 million, so a total of $4.3 million will soon come into the community to support education, which helps strengthen the area's workforce, he also said.
Never say die:
UAW factor?
Reporters asked politicians about the United Auto Workers union during Tuesday's event because some union news has coincided with the expansion announcements.
Members of the new United Auto Workers chapter Local 42 are passing out cards at Volkswagen in an effort to gain support from other VW employees and get the right to bargain collectively, Nooga.com reported Tuesday.
That news came a day after the expansion announcement and a few days after UAW leaders announced the formation of Local 42.
Corker called the UAW a "nonfactor," and Haslam said that the union had nothing to do with the negotiations between the state and the company.
http://www.nooga.com/167185/leaders-celebrate-vw-expansion-provide-insight-into-new-research-center/
I don't see where this has anything to do with the UAW either.
While offering tax breaks and other incentives may not always result in more jobs it is a draw that the Union can't offer.
Times seem to have changed from the days when unions were formed by members to address real or even perceived wrongs by a large employer. Unions themselves have simply become another layer of management or more to the point another form of government. They are no longer separate from the political process they are movers and shakers in that process.
Because business is designed as a capitalist venture moving to a state with strong union presence is a detriment and so the union has become more like a parasite that has to attach itself to a healthy business to get established or even survive.
I simply don't think this assessment has escaped the employees in the VW plant in Tenn. Anyone that can read a book or has access to a computer can see the private sector has a built in defense to overly, in the opinion of the accountants, demanding union. They can always move to where the union isn't and to a state that will court them. This method is pretty successful as seen in the numbers of union employees in the private sector, under 7 percent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_States
when this happens a whole community can lose jobs and the sting will last for years, look at the rust belt.
There on vicious cycle that unions are responsible for to a point. As labor costs go up the cost of the product has to go up and the profits have to go down. Unless you can find a cheaper way to produce the product. Often called DE-contenting. But even more importantly the wages of people that buy the product have to go up to afford the product or they will simply buy a different product.
I simply don't see how the UAW can overcome the mood towards the union in this economy and in that part of the country.
I've heard that, but also heard that one reason those states get more back from the feds is because of an abundance of military bases and other government installations.
Also, I remember seeing one map that showed which areas paid more than what they got back, and which paid less. The scary thing was, most of our crops were grown in those "subsidized" areas. So unless those "non-subsidized" areas want to start eating Chinese drywall, they'd better realize that some of those subsidies are for a good reason!
I've heard that if it wasn't for subsidies, milk would cost about twice what it does already.
I think there's a growing trend that is showing us that any movements toward a community's well being will come from grassroots kind of actions, whether it be a good deal for workers or the price of milk. More governance of the "good kind" will become much more localized, and perhaps not even formalized by elections. Trusting one's welfare to a corporation or a union no longer seems like a wise course of action. Either one can exploit you.
@andre1969, it's changed a bit, but a lot of military pork went that direction because of "senators for life", the notable ones in my time being John Stennis of MS and Ted Stevens of AK.
As far as food growing, the unions have nothing over the protections the peanut farmers have.
Peanut Farmers, did Jimmy Carter get that in when he was Prez??? Took forever to get rid of the tobacco Rip-offs. At least I like Peanut butter. Has to be Adams Crunchy. NOTHING added. I salt it myself with Hawaiian Sea salt. ;-) Hope it is not UAW made.
That came later. "According to government data compiled by the Environmental Working Group (EWG), the farm owned by former President Carter and his family collected $272,288 in subsidy payments from 1995 through 2012." (Daily Signal)
Some of the protectionism in farming makes the Chicken Tax look downright reasonable.
There have been protections for farmers since the 50s in my memory at least. The things that were put into place to benefit the small farmer then end up being manipulated and reworked in the laws so they benefit the big farmer operations by corporations, just as we see today. The number of small farmers has deteriorated drastically. This is true whether it's chickens, pigs, turkeys, wheat, corn, beans. The taxpayer monies end up subsidizing the capitalist corporations under the disguise of helping those poor farmers. And it's not just peanuts we're talking about in terms of the crop as well as the amount of cash.
One good one is paying farmers not to grow stuff.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Did something different last night. Watched TV.
PBS had a show about Hoffa and Teamsters money and influencing politicans. Hoffa got pardoned in exchange for a million bucks.
As always, follow the money.
Easy there, that is one of Rocky's heros. Along with the UAW's Reuther. Both criminals in my opinion.
Well, it was Fitzsimmons who sprung Hoffa, the catch being that the pardon prevented him from being active in the union. Hoffa was appealing that restriction when he disappeared.
Hoffa's first conviction was in Chattanooga.
The special treatment given to the UAW over the salaries workers and the labor union IBEW that was the assembly union here at Moraine plant GM is still in the news. The Delphi salaried workers didn't get special funding out of tax monies and are still wanting reparations.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/business/delphi-retirees-cheer-federal-ruling/ngkgT/
"While Delphi was in bankruptcy protection in 2009, it relinquished responsibility for all its employee pensions to the federally backed PBGC. That move resulted in lower pension payments to retirees. But while General Motors — which once owned Delphi — contributed to union-represented retirees to bolster their pensions, salaried retirees were left with substantially reduced pensions, some cut by up to 70 percent."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have not forgotten that agregious miscarriage of justice by the Obama Administration. The tax payers GAVE the UAW pension plan $27 Billion plus to keep the 600k retirees at full pension WITH their gold plated HC plan. Totally against all bankruptcy laws. Don't forget the Indiana Teacher's pension plan and others that were cheated when Obama screwed the GM Bond holders. That whole bailout was nothing more than paybacks by the Democrats to the UAW for their huge contributions to the Party. I know some here would like to spin it as good for the country. It is a done deal and I don't see any improvement for the middle class working stiff. In fact the last 5 years has only driven US all deeper in debt or deflated our standard of living.
I guess I find it hard to believe that a plant would only return 1-2%...assuming that the plant is viable for 20 years, between all the additional payroll (assuming prior to the plant the only available jobs were flipping burgers at the Golden Arches), the eventual property taxes, and all the other support businesses that grow up around it, plus the possibility for better housing than trailers, I would think (without any hard evidence to back it up) that the few hundred million upfront cost would be "paid back" (re-couped thru other means) within five years...
I am also assuming that the plant IS built in the wilderness, where there were no interstate exits, so building a plant and a dedicated exit was no problem, and the property tax collected prior to the plant was very low (zoned agriculture)...so even the tax abatement for 10 years really costs them nothing...
I would be very nervous if I had been promised a pension. They are unsustainable. The last gravy train is government workers but even that is going to collapse at some point. I'm happy taking my chances on my own IRAs and 401K's. I'm subject to the market risk but at least if major decisions and screwups are made it's my responsibility, not a bunch of bureaucrats that were too stupid to get real jobs.
I agree with you on having control of my own future. I don't think people in many unions realize just how precarius the future of their union pensions are. Which makes the UAW pension bailout even more troubling. Are the tax payers going to bail out the 100s of underfunded pensions?
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/criticalstatusnotices.html#2011Critical
How many millions of tax payers are being screwed over bailing out public employee Pension plans like CALPers here in CA? How many of those tax payers do not have a cushy retirement to count on at the tax payers expense? What part of unsustainable don't these Union Con artists know about? Or they know like the UAW and are desperate to get more member employers paying into those ponzi schemes. Companies like VW have to know that by getting involved in a Union they are responsible to keep that union pension plan solvent. To the point of paying in more than the contract they are under requires. It is no wonder Big corps like Walmart fight to the death to keep the Unions out.
I'll be getting a small pension from my ~6 years of service with McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing back in the 1990's. Sometimes over the years I wondered if I would have been better off staying with them rather than switching companies back in 2000. I got a 10% raise, better 401K, and 7 weeks of severance pay when I made the switch.
Well, the Boeing pension is not COLA'd, so it erodes over time. And, apparently not very solvent either, because I heard that Boeing ended up freezing the pension for new hires awhile back. But then, just recently, they're going to freeze the pensions for current employees!
So, just because you get promised a pension, it's still not a guarantee. What's the old saying...promise in one hand, poop in the other, and see which one fills up quicker?
FWIW, my pension for those 5.83 years of service will come out to about $349.20 per month, in 2035 when I turn 65. If I was still with Boeing, I'd have about 20 years in now, so I still doubt if that pension would be very much.
Losing the "security" of a pension and being forced to fend for my own for retirement security was probably the best thing that ever happened to me, as it forced me to get serious about saving.
Yours is the typical reason so many companies have bailed out of their defined pension plans. When the Feds mandated the 5 year vesting it put many companies in a bind. It raised their required funding level and forced them to dump more cash into the pension fund. Many companies at that point paid off with early retirements and lump sum payments into 401K accounts. I know when I left Ma Bell with 9+ years service the vesting was 15 years. So I got nothing. A guy I worked with had 16 years with Bell and got a little over $200 per month when he turned 65. In fact he was surprised when he got the check in the mail. He stayed on after I retired until he was 75. He gets a pretty hefty Teamster retirement.
Mihelle Malkin takes up the fight for Delphi workers shafted in the Auto Bailout:
http://townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/2014/07/25/still-fighting-the-delphi-workers-obama-robbed-n1865668?utm_source=thfbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=thupdate
You should know by now, Gagrice that corps will eat there own. Where is Fintail at these days?
Good to see you @rockylee, er, Rockford.
Fin's around, probably out cruising today.
@stever - I found his page and wrote him a message (inbox). Good to see you also, Steve. Haven't been in the forums in quite a while but like the new layout. Just need to get use to it. My only suggestion is to perhaps make it easier to find the car forums as it took some navigating to land here if you guys do an update.
Yeah, it's not perfect, but at least it doesn't break down all the time like the last software package did.
@stever - That is good news! As I said before, I like the new layout a lot. It will be really fun once I get use to it.
My favorite part of the new layout is being able to have a discussion with an individual.
Using "Recent Discussions" in the box at the right will show topics that are active. That's
one way to note the topics you might be interested in.
Another is to use the blue link "Car forums" at top left. It leads to some search
features that you can use to find topics by brand or by key words.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
@imidazol97 - Thanks!
I do find it funny that those who openly bash such benefits are usually older folks who actually collect such benefits, either from unions or the public sector. There are definite subsets within the public sector who are vocally against "big government" and any kind of social goods. Nobody will accuse them of understanding any facet of economics.
I'm around.
Corporations are people too. A wealthy self-made bootstrapper who built it himself told me so, he's my friend.
Yeah, makes me glad I'm male and not female, so I don't have a Ute for the corporations to micro-manage!
And, I've noticed a definite shift, over the years, in the way companies treat their employees. We're definitely a lot more disposable nowadays. I came pretty close to getting disposed of around this time last year.
My wife's paternal grandfather worked for Central Hudson in upstate NY for ~45 years and never missed a day of work. Her father moved around and worked for himself some now and then. My wife followed in her dad's footsteps - 10 jobs in 30 years. She's got good memories of all the times she quit to do a road trip - no one knows where granddad's gold watch wound up.
Glad you are back Rocky; just to bring you up to date the UAW assembled content of my automotive fleet has decreased from 20% to 17%. Motorcycles retain their 50-50 British-Italian split, while my bicycle is also British.
Might buy one of those Fiat Jeeps however...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I think it's only fair to view the UAW in its historical context. Careers of people like Walter Reuther are truly amazing--I mean, what he went through and what he accomplished. Few people have enough background information on the social and cultural context in which the UAW operated in the 30s through the 70s.
My Teamster Union is much like our government. I did not agree with the way they did things. And I tried to make changes when possible by participating and getting elected to the E Board. I have never said that private Unions did not do good for the working man. Only that public employee Unions are raping the tax payers. I vote to change bad policy and politicians. And I am very thankful for the benefits I recieve from being in the Union. Sadly the Federal government has made regulations that will kill any chance of future union members having what I have. We started feeling the results of those poor regulations 25 years ago.