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@gagrice - Can you site some examples of said regulations? Public employee unions only kept up with the cost of living. It is not their fault that the private sector was dumb down and didn't want to pay union dues for a bigger paycheck. They didn't need no union because they could negotiate a better deal is all I heard in the 80's and 90's. That was true for a time while unions still set the bar. Now that the unions died off they are being paid free market wages (min. wage or a few dimes above it) which has destroyed the economy and country. It will not change until the people revolt and stop electing the 2 party corporate oligarchy and get money out of politics.
Well said!
@roadrunner - Thanks, roadrunner.... Sadly, the domestic content in UAW cars has decreased over the years. Some of the visual quality has gotten better but not some much on the nuts and bolts as we've seen from the foreign made ignition switch. We desperately need a free traitor reform policy with at least a 60% tariff and a content law passed. The problem is you have as @fintail would say a bunch of pseudo-capitalists that still believe in supply side aka trickle down. They sincerely still believe in this myth and are fighting those of us that want to see American Manufacturing to once again become a priority again. Many people are finding out the hard way that the service sectors, engineering, can be outsourced to nations where they live in grass huts and eat snakes. We warned them 30 years ago this would happen but you can't tell some people anything.
I do believe under new UAW leadership that VW will be unionized here in the near future. That might spark a rebirth of the union movement in this country.
You mean like the low lifes at the UAW that only get $15 per hour while the fat cat members get $30? The have dumbed down themselves by not taking advantage of RTW and refusing to pay the union dues.
You know all about ERISA and what it did to pension plans in the USA. You are just in denial as usual. The only union members doing well are the public employee unions where those they negotiate with have no skin in the game. They just screw over the tax payers. Could be why strong Union states like MI and Wisconsin have moved to the right. Who will protect the tax payers from the bloated Public Employee Unions?
Hi Rocky, really glad you are back as it just hasn't been the same without you!
As fond as I am of you though, I don't always agree with your UAW postions! IMHO the only way the UAW is ever going to be successful is that their value proposition can't only be to the workers (which, by the way, has also been really questionable over the past 10-20 years as they've driven jobs away), but the UAW needs to show value to the employer, too. The UAW should be balancing its concern for workers along with trying hard to be innovative and provide ways to be flexible to improve manufacturing flexibility and lowering manufacturing costs. If they don't do that, the jobs will continue to disappear.
@gagrice :
"You mean like the low lifes at the UAW that only get $15 per hour while the fat cat members get $30? The have dumbed down themselves by not taking advantage of RTW and refusing to pay the union dues."
They were hired after the 2 Tier wage was implemented. They had a choice to turn down the job. I have both 1st Tier and 2nd Tier wage workers in my family. The difference will be addressed next contract as that is issue #1 among the rank and file. Dennis Williams the new UAW president will fix it or will go out on strike to make sure it is fixed. I will also note when I was working at a non union employer we had a two tier wage system. I was not aware of that until about a week or two after I started. Some people that were doing the same job as I was doing were making $8 buck more an hour and the highest I could achieve after several years was $3 bucks an hour less than them. So do not think it doesn't happen in the non union businesses that you glorify.
"You know all about ERISA and what it did to pension plans in the USA. You are just in denial as usual. The only union members doing well are the public employee unions where those they negotiate with have no skin in the game. They just screw over the tax payers. Could be why strong Union states like MI and Wisconsin have moved to the right. Who will protect the tax payers from the bloated Public Employee Unions?"
Both states will turn blue this fall. People are sick of right wing [non-permissible content removed] economics that screws over the middle class and working poor. Even a democrat is projected to win in Kansas, in November because he screwed over the working class to give his billionaire buddies like the Koch brothers more tax breaks as they rape and pillage our country with their libertarian, Ayn Rand ideology which includes smashing unions. Kansas, is bankrupt and you keep telling me these wankers are fiscal conservatives.
And when GM & C tell the UAW to pound sand and move more factories out of the country? Without solidarity a union is nothing. The UAW is dysfunctional. VW workers were smart to vote against gettting tied up with that bunch of losers. They would be better joing a union that knows how to treat all employees fairly.
The People of Kansas would be smart to continue the Status Quo, they are far better off than CA and many of the liberal run states. People in Michigan should worry about fixing the huge mess they have made in Detroit with their White Flight.
If you look into it, I think you'll find that Kansas tax cutting didn't result in commensurate economic growth and the state is facing some potentially large deficits now. Wealthy individuals and companies often bank or conservatively invest tax savings. It isn't an automatic increase in stock or business investment. Ask a bank trust officer. At some point it converts from growth to wealth conservation. That's a hole in the trickle down school of economics. Too often human psychology is ignored when people come up with this stuff.
Trickle down nonsense might be the regulation which has stunted economic progress more than any actual regulations put upon employers.
I'm still waiting for these so called "right" (the US has very few who are truly to the "right) states to confront public sector union excess, especially when connected to the Praetorian sector. But they'll whine about industrial worker unions!
It goes to show you that even conservatives are wising up when a democrat is winning in the polls. They know trickle down = prosperity is a myth. I have no doubt the VW plant will go UAW. The Germans want to set up a works council and this U.S. plant is the only non union plant they own. GM is bringing even more assembly jobs into the fold. They need to make sure the parts are sourced from American producers that know what they are doing. You can get quality out of slave labor. As far as Detroit, goes it will take decades to rebuild. All those free traitor bills limo liberals and big business conservatives have supported over the years killed Detroit. You can not ship 60,000 factories out of the country a long with 10's of millions of jobs many of which were in Detroit, once called "The Paris of the West" and maintain public service without revenue. I know conservatives answer to everything is to cut the public sector but that does nothing to solve the root cause of the problem.
The public employee unions have just kept pace with inflation and I know Gary will point out California, as his proof that they are overpaid. Given the fact that a house in San Diego will run you north of $500K for a fixer upper making a $100K+ is not really out of line. If you want to cut anyone then go after some of the city management that are pulling down $300K+as I've seen on the calipers website.
At least with the private company unions there is a company that needs to stay fiscally responsible, or they go BK and shaft all of those "safe" pensions. Yet it looks like San Diego is trying to goose their returns by playing roulette with the taxpayers' money to cover a shortfall of funds. Google for this article at the WSJ:
San Diego Pension Dials Up the Risk to Combat a Shortfall
San Diego County's Pension Manager Is Extreme Example of Those Using Leverage to Boost Performance
Nice that the public "servants" get to not only bear no risk, but shaft it to the taxpayers who are bearing the risk of their OWN 401K's, PLUS those pensions of the public employees. Talk about haves and have nots - I should have been a "servant", too. Hey Gary - doesn't that make you feel all warm inside, since I think that is your county?!
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It's stuff like this that makes me look forward to the day I can leave the rat race, and lower my tax burden, so that I personally am not funding shams like this. Unfortunately, I'm guessing I'll never be free from it, since it's mainly state and local employees these days that tend to reap those big benefits, and not the federal employees like back in the day. So, while I could reduce my federal tax burden to almost zero when I retire, they're still gonna get me on the state/local front...just raise property taxes, sales taxes, tax the that falls on your property like they're starting to do now in Maryland, etc...
Hey, rockylee, I'd be remiss if I didn't jump on the UAW board here and say Hi to you, man. Long, long time no talk to! Are you working an automotive job somewhere and are you a proud, card-carrying UAW worker?
I'm still in the Allied Healthcare field. I'm working as a Sleep Tech. in Alamogordo, NM (about 90 miles north of El Paso, TX) for a regional hospital here in town. This area is the place where the first atomic bomb was dropped (it was actually dropped on the Trinity Site 125 miles NW of here) and all sorts of space programs for NASA were worked on here. Hollomon AFB is about 8 miles west of town.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I've always viewed the Union vs. Management struggle as a political battle as much as an economic one. Management's idea is to pay the worker enough to keep them there but not enough to ever make them want to leave--in essence, keep them captive by making leaving seem an impossibility for future survival. The Union on the other hand, is plotting against management to free the worker in 20 years from this servitude.
The trick is to keep everything in balance. When one side or the other gains a significant advantage, the whole system breaks down. Either the worker becomes even more entrenched in the system with no security for his future, or the worker gets so greedy he totally destroys the goose that laid the golden egg (see, auto industry, Britain, 1946-1980s).
In the public sector, if either the boss or the worker gains an upper hand, it seems that the manifestation is even lousier service to the public. The bosses can just replace anyone at any time with a less skilled and lesser-paid worker, or the worker, if more powerful, doesn't have to work as hard to get just as much money as they did before.
I did not realize San Diego county had their own retirement system. I just assumed they were part of CalPERS like many of the small towns in the county. Sounds kind of shakey don't it? The real sick part is we pay into that fund as well as CalPERS. The tax increase last year is totally going to try and rescue the pension fund that is in critical condition.
http://pensionpulse.blogspot.com/2014/08/more-leverage-to-combat-pension.html
Gary, market realities have pretty much tamed the UAW. Imagine what happens to a leveraged fund from say, SD county when the market tanks. Taxpayers get to make up the difference!
You are absolutely correct. CA is already facing untold $billions to fix CalPERS. That entire tax increase is going to try and shore up the state's pension plan. The UAW newbies are in 401K. Supposedly the $27 billion we put into the GM/UAW pension will carry the 600,000 current retirees and those that will be eligible to retire under that plan. The militants in the UAW claim they will strike if they don't end the two tier system and get into the pension instead of the 401K. Talk is cheap when you see the automakers moving more jobs to Mexico.
There were times I would have opted out of the Teamsters if not for our right to slavery laws in Alaska.
Below is a letter that was generated after 16 years as a member of the UAW. I recently started paying attention to where and how the UAW spends the memberships’ dues and it has directly led me to remove myself as a member. Until our contract expires on September of 2015 I will be forced to pay Agency Fees amounting to approximately 62% of what a normal dues paying member pays. Right to Work has given me back the freedom to choose not to finance the ideology of the Democratic Party against my will. Please feel free to share this letter with others who may feel the same.
To my UAW brothers and sisters,
As a man in the skilled trades, I have greatly benefited from all of the hard work, sacrifices and efforts of the founding UAW leaders and members. I make a good wage, work in a safe environment, have protection from unfair labor practices, carry comprehensive medical coverage, get several weeks paid vacation, paid holidays, and will be retiring with a pension. I thank the men and women of the UAW that went broke during sit-ins, died in strikes, and struggled through uncertain times to build a strong union. UAW workers have paid with their wages, safety and even their lives.
But how long are we members expected to pay for the successes of the past? I will pay $3,389 in dues during the current four-year contract and if the dues increase I will pay $4,234 for the next contract. I am not averse to paying dues but need to see a better stewardship of my money before I will agree to pay any more.
Times have changed but unfortunately the UAW has not changed with them. The UAW clings to strategies of the past that will not work in today’s world. They demand our loyalty and money, citing their glories of yesterday, while making no gains for us today and putting us in danger by depleting our strike fund. It is clear the UAW has no plan to rethink its strategy and will continue to spend money it doesn’t have on a tactic that repeatedly fails.
http://workerfreedom.org/why-michigan-uaw-veteran-opting-out
Andre 1969
"And, I've noticed a definite shift, over the years, in the way companies treat their employees. We're definitely a lot more disposable nowadays. I came pretty close to getting disposed of around this time last year."
It does seem ironic...it used to be that an employee stayed with the company for years and hopefully retired with a pension...then, the thing to do was for the employees to jump from job to job in the search for better pay and benefits, and I don't blame them for doing that...but they forgot there was a consequence to their actions...
That meant that employers no longer had any loyalty to the employee...if you thought your staff would jump ship in 2 or 3 years, why be loyal to them???...if the employee can seek what they feel is a better job environment, why should the employer feel any loyalty to someone who may leave in a couple of years???
Some of this was created by the employee, who now feels disposable (and, frankly, IS disposable) because they job hopped to 10 different jobs in 20 years...
Some of you seem to forget that sometimes an employee may not be worth more than they are being paid by any given employer...do they have the right to seek better pay???...of course...but all that does to the employer is make them sit down and say to themselves, why should I care about workers who have no loyalty to me???...and that is one reason why loyalty from an employer is almost nonexistent...
Everybody thinks workers have rights...they do, but everybody seems to forget that employERS have rights, too...
In Georgia, we have "employment at will" which is a good thing...since an employee can up and leave a job without any notice whatsoever, the legislature said that employers should have the ability to release employees without any notice, either...hey, what's good for the goose is good for the gander...seems fair to me...
You make some good points. When I went to work for Pacific Telephone in 1961, I was surrounded by people that had been there 30-40 years and longer. That was my plan as well. I did want to get out of CA and put in transfers to Oregon or Idaho. After five years of no transfers offered, I took an offer by RCA to move to AK with higher pay. When I put in a 4 week notice, I was soon offered jobs by Bell in both locations I tried getting transfers to. I understand as they had invested a lot of money in training me. But it was their way or no way. So I left and never regretted it. Within 10 years the Bell system was split up and many of the people I worked with were given the royal shaft. Outside of the government you don't see a lot of people working their 45 year career with one company. Automation played a big part in the communication business. I would hate to go to work here doing what I did before retirement in AK. I would be lucky to get a 3rd the pay. And like the UAW there are not a lot of union jobs with good pay left.
Of course, one can ask who was first to betray loyalty to who, and why. If one dares to examine relative wealth trends over the past ~40 years, it becomes pretty obvious who made the move and who reaped the rewards. As funny as those who cry class warfare, without having the cojones to admit who declared war, and who won. And as it gets worse, we'll eventually reach a guillotine point - and the hired untouchable rabidly unionized pseudo-soldiers won't be able to do much, unlike in second world quality Missouri.
GA, a shining beacon of prosperity and progress for the first world to emulate and admire, right? Oh, maybe not so much. If what's good for the goose is good for the gander, some pain will have to start going more than one direction.
I dare say the Feds played a very large role in the destruction of the employee/Employer loyalty demise. It started with the Federal mandate that divested the Bell System. Those fragmented companies lost much of the revenue from the Long Distance AT&T. Then in an opposite direction they have allowed mergers that border on monopolies. Again killing the need for as many people. Look at what the Feds have done to banking. Citigroup alone laid off 130,000 loyal workers when the Feds got involved.
http://www.exposingtruth.com/37-banks-became-4-just-2-decades-one-astonishing-chart/
If I went back in time, I would guess that it was employees who started the "jump ship" movement, since they wanted to better themselves and sought employment at an employer who may have offered them more...I don't blame them for wanting to better themselves, but, as always, there is Newton's Law...for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...so, as more and more employees jumped ship, it probably did not take long for employers to realize that they were just "stepping stones" for an employee to, say, learn the ropes and then take that knowledge to the next employer...so, now we have folks crying that employers have no loyalty, when it is, IMO, employees who brought it on themselves...
Like anything, when employees see a better deal, they think it is fair to take it (it is)...but when an employer can find someone who will do the same job cheaper, suddenly it "isn't fair"...when it really is fair...
Maybe we just have to acknowledge that, just like email has changed the US Postal System permanently, maybe the employer-employee situation has changed permanently...to some, for the better, to some for the worst...
You know what they say about the golden rule...he who has the gold...
Did the Feds really start it? I don't believe that socio-economic and wealth concentration trends of the past 2 generations or so are coincidental when viewed with changing workplace realities. It's the real class warfare - the proles got uppity, knock them down a peg or 10. Reality.
Of course you would guess that. Is it an employee racing up, or an employer racing to the bottom? Many historical numbers would point to the latter. Funny line about stepping stones too, as in the devolving US, on the job training is less and less common (I guess everyone needs to be a bootstrapper and build it themselves, right) - yet Americans get to compete with others who receive training and education from their homeland. Fair.
Depends on the context of cheaper. Taking advantage of an expensive to maintain system and then fleeing it when it comes time to pay it forward is not "fair".
Maybe we also need to acknowledge that being "fair" has nothing to do with either side.
Well look at what Citigroup and BoA etc. did to our economy. As far as I'm concerned, any company too big to fail is too big to exist. Break 'em all up. And that goes for GM during the BK, too. No company should be able to bring down our economy. As no union should, either.
Agree, I would have let the chips fall where they may. They could have used the TARP to pay off those with Accounts insured by FDIC. Bulking up the UAW pension plan with $27 billion was so far off the scale. I am sure by the time the lawsuits work through the courts the GM bankruptcy will be found Unconstitutional, and the tax payers tapped to pay off the bond holders that were robbed by Obama.
PS
There are hundreds of Union pensions critically underfunded right now. Are the tax payers going to make them all right?
Public sector or private? And what about the public sector double dippers? Those are especially disturbing in some fields - work for 15-25 years, get the pension, then get re-hired at the comfy wage of an experienced person. Not many people want to bring it up, as some groups are untouchable when it comes to discussing union abuses.
Taxpayers probably won't pay for many failed private pensions, but only a massive outcry and likely widespread civil disobedience at the very least will stop them from funding the other side.
The list is mostly private Union pensions. My own included. Here is the official list. It is not a short one.
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/criticalstatusnotices.html
In CA we have TRIPLE DIPPERS. Governor Brown is one of them. When he was governor first time he set up a SPECIAL retirement for high level government officials. He is a slick operator for sure. Makes UAW leaders look like total morons.
http://www.ocregister.com/taxdollars/strong-477621-brown-lrs.html
This is the best article I have read on the current attempt to unionize VW in TN. I think the UAW approach may work for them this time. If they stick with their plan and not get greedy. They need to prove their worth to the workforce before they try to get into their wallets.
http://inthesetimes.com/article/17044/the_new_volkswagen_model
Well if one isn't in "the fog of war", it's a lot easier to second-guess decisions of the past that were made with no knowledge of the future. We as armchair quarterbacks can always look brilliant.
The economic outlook at the time of these various decisions was catastrophic. I don't think most Americans appreciate how close the asteroid came to the earth.
Okay, here's a situation that is happening in KY and my opinion on it:
As a lot of you may know, in KY there was a special program where judges could retire a few years early by agreeing to work an additional 600 days anywhere in the state over the next 5 or so years. A few judges have completed their 600 days and are running for office again- and are being accused of double dipping. I disagree, and here is why:
Thoughts?
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Double dipping on retirements or Pension/Salary happens with millions of military taking civil service jobs. I don't have a problem with that. My issue is in CA with double/Triple dipping on the state retirement system. Currently there are people working for the state getting big salaries and CA pensions. As a Teamster if I go back to work at a Teamster job my pension stops. I guess it would not bother me so much except for the 1.6 million retirees sucking the state dry. Many are back working for the state while collecting fat pension checks. The real kicker is the $100k retirement club with the top guy at $540k a year pension. Something is wrong. And the governor promised to fix it when he got elected. So far he has failed.
Back in 2005, some 1,841 retirees pulled down more than $100,000 a year in pension checks from the California Public Employees Retirement System.
By 2009, this so-called "$100K club" had more than tripled, to 6,133 members.
And by the end of 2012, membership more than doubled yet again, to 14,763, according to data from CalPERS.
http://www.ocregister.com/taxdollars/city-515888-100k-club.html
Agreed. Which is why I left my big bank and I certainly wish everybody else in this country would leave their big bank for a credit union or local bank. No company should be able to torpedo the economy, just as no union should be able to kill a company.
That's the problem with human nature, be it labor or management. Human greed doesn't know when to stop. The concept of "enough" is not a forte of the western world.
No offense, but it is double dipping. Retiring from an employer to collect a generous pension, then being re-hired by in effect the same employer, now collecting salary and pension. In effect, two salaries.
Healthcare and retirement are kind of like red herrings in my eyes, as the pension payout is likely much more than the employer contributions for both. The elected thing is something a red herring too. Every dorito-sized county in the southeast has at least one judge, right? Probably not much competition. Maybe par for the course in the justice system.
Regarding gagrice and military double dipping, I think it's the case there, too. I don't see military being too relevant - it's not like these guys are drafted into combat, and most of the ones who do see that hell probably aren't the ones who end up in cushy spots.. No different than other state workers, especially cops who retire and then get re-hired. It's all stuff that private sector workers can't dream about. In a time where waste is supposed to be cut, some isn't.
Many people retire from the military after 20 years and then take another job. They have to as military retirement would not support anyone unless they are high ranking officer. Retire at 38 from the Army and become a postman for 25 years and you get a decent retirement. Nothing to get excited about.
Fin, I don't get as excited about "double dipping" as you do. Many people in industry have earned pensions from more than one company just like people in government. They also get social security. Of course, today most have portable 401K's. I'm thinking that after the economy improves we're going to see a new model where employees can choose between a higher salary or a lower one with stronger benefits, particularly in harder to fill STEM type jobs. As for gov, their leadership needs to negotiate tougher on a "total" compensation basis with salary and benefits both used as variables in the equation. You can't compare a similar public and private job (or prerequisite credentials) just on one or the other. Personally, I've always found it interesting that Republican leaning consultants find gov is always overpaid, while Democrat leaning find the opposite. Couldn't be based on their political donor relationships
The real answer probably falls somewhere in between and varies from state to state, etc. But statistical analysis is only as good as the unbiased and complete sample base employed!
I love it when "government" jobs get outsourced to the private sector and the cost to the taxpayer triples. Lost the link but I think it was one of the big public unions that's running a PR campaign to try to convince people to think about a goverment career. Seems no one wants that kind of job as much anymore.
Yes. I know a guy who was in the Air Force for 25 years, and retired. He gets 3K/month - but, he's only 46. Nothing fancy, but still quite respectable compared to the average American income. I don't know of any job one could start at 21 and buy into an annuity large enough to pay that much for life. He has plenty of time to find another job and live comfortably. I've never got him to say why he retired, as he had a pretty nice position in that dangerous war zone in Germany, piloting from his desk, as he puts it.
Retire at 38, then get a preferred entry into the public sector for 20-25 years, then get 2 pensions. Pretty nice racket.
I have no problem with pensions themselves in those cases, but doubling up from basically the same employer seems wasteful and abusive to me. And don't even get me started on cops. One pension per person. It's not like they contribute anything near the cost of the pension anyway.
I have a friend who has worked public and private sector in the same role (property development/planning-zoning). To him, public sector has 80% of the pay, 150% the benefits, and maybe 75% of the work as private sector. I don't feel sorry for him, and neither does he. Both of his parents were public sector, and now combine to be fairly affluent with their pensions. As these boomers age, so will the strain.
And on the outsourced yet more expensive line, I bet that doesn't include bennies, esp in retirement. And we are led to believe unionized industrial workers are the problem.
Gee, no love for two on, two off firefighters who retire in twenty after working two jobs all that time?
(Not a job for me - my neighbor was in hospital something like 4 times for OTJ injuries, including a nasty one when a flaming roof fell on him).
I need a clarification: in the last sentence you say "will not be paying a portion of his/her healthcare or retirement.
Does that mean the State is paying a portion of the retirement pay and healthcare costs even if the judge takes a full time position?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If a Senior Status Judge is appointed/elected to a full time position he would not receive what a "regular" judge would get since the SS Judge already has a fully vested pension and medical benefits.
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Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So the judge already "retired" and going back to work continues to receive the medical benefits from the retirement and his/her pension?
If there's any compensation from the retirement while working and being paid in the newly elected or appointed position, then that's double dipping.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If there's any compensation from the retirement while working and being paid in the newly elected or appointed position, then that's double dipping.
I agree imidazol97, that is double dipping and it should be against the law.
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Would it be double dipping if I take a job in the private sector and get paid the same-or likely more-in addition to my pension and benefits?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
That is a good question. A couple thoughts. If you retire and collect a pension, then take another job you may be depriving someone else of an income. Pensions at one time were designed for people when they reached a certain "Retierment" age. I think it can be blamed on the Feds and ERISA. forcing the 5 year vesting really hurt our Teamster pension. As people would work in the Union just long enough to vest, then take a non union job in the same field. I think it can be proven ERISA was the cause of so many companies dumping their defined pension plans and going to 401K. That way you work 5 years and take it with you to the next job. The company does not have to keep track of all those short timers looking for a pension at 55-65.
Would your pay be coming from the taxpayer? It's not like the pension is fully funded by the recipient, either - that would be one hell of a long term ROI.
If the pay is coming from the same pocket, it is double dipping.
Don't worry, it is legal, even if a little sketchy