Dear friend, you can call a German company a private concern. I love it. Everything is union there. However, they are treated like parts of the govt there. If they layoff/fire an employee, they have a hard time getting that person to go back to work. Not that Germany is the only country that pays excellent unemployment compensation. Back in 2004 they passed new laws that would get someone back to work sooner. These are cultural differences and hard for some of us to understand. We go on vacation and they go on holiday. Sweden is nice too, as far as leisure time goes. I guess you could call them work hard and play harder countries.
So if you think that Americans should do as Japan and make Toyota's and Honda's. Because they sell and therefore are doing something right. Yes bring all those lean ideas to America and we too will be winners. Well the fact is that they teach the ideas in business schools. Only the ideas they see fitting. Never the idea that a CEO can only be compensated fifteen times the highest paid employee. Never mention the manner that employees are taken in as family and educated. The company also takes an active interest in that employees family.
So a company in America,Germany, or Japan are entirely different concepts.
VW (front wheel drive) and Germany are two different things. Its like making Germans buy at Walmart. They just don't like fecal matter and thats why Walmart had to hightail it out of there. But your right, VW is a German company and it is front wheel drive. Is it the only one?
Was that the first state to pass the living wage? Is that $10 and hour? The editor of a UAW newspaper was lobbing for that here in Texas. As of yet he has had any luck.
Actually the minimum living wage should be $20/hour. The US government should mandate that for anyone over 21. That way everyone over 21 can live comfortably. :shades:
Actually the minimum living wage should be $20/hour.
Would that include $10 per hour for benefit package? Or in addition to the benefits? I think minimum wage is high enough. Most places here pay way over the minimum anyway. I think McDonald's starts at about $8 per hour. That is plenty for a kid living at home while going to community college. The only job I recently heard of paying minimum wage is Union. The Safeway contract that was hammered out over that long stupid strike and lockout, has the starting wage based on the minimum wage. A friend that works at Von's told us they are having a hard time getting new employees.
You don't think that a minimum wage of $20 per hour would cause massive inflation?
Thats an interesting subject and the object of much debate. In economics there is a saying that there is no such thing as a free lunch. All cost are borne by someone. If someone shoplifts, we all pay for it. If a CEO is overpaid, we all pay for it. If some company pays for the rights to name a stadium/arena, we all pay for it. American Airline Center is paid for by the folks who fly American Airlines and so forth.
The right contends that raising the minimum wage eliminates jobs. They state that if the additional output of that employee is not enough to cover his/her wage, the employer will not hire and or do business.
The left on the other hand agrees that at first some jobs are forgone. However, the additional wages from those enjoying an increase in the minimum wage will create additional jobs via the multiplier effect of the additional spending by those who have increases in income borne of the higher minimum wage.
The Pizza Hut employee in Europe has health benefits that he/she doesn't have here in the states is also interesting. Does that add to the cost of the pizza? Then too the cost per employee of Walmart on the rest of taxpayers is estimated at $2000 a year per employee in taxpayer funded indigent social services. So does this mean that a Walmart being built in the neighborhood equate into higher property/income taxes to pay for benefits which could have been factored into their wages and or prices paid by those who frequent Walmart?
So is this pick your poison? Either factor the benefits into the wages/prices and or pay higher taxes via property/income. The UAW and or union way would more than likely factor this into the cost of product or service. One could argue that this would save money in the long run. First the indigent working class wouldn't seek medical attention in emergency rooms, which isn't cost effective. Then too an agency to administer the allocation of medical services, nutrition programs, and other social programs isn't needed to take care of the working indigent.
dallasdude: Dear friend, you can call a German company a private concern. I love it. Everything is union there. However, they are treated like parts of the govt there.
It IS a private concern. As I said before, it is entirely owned by the Porsche and Piech families, who are descended from Ferdinand Porsche. A private company can be unionized, but that doesn't make it any less of a private concern (as opposed to a nationalized one, as Renault was until 1996).
dallasdude: If they layoff/fire an employee, they have a hard time getting that person to go back to work. Not that Germany is the only country that pays excellent unemployment compensation. Back in 2004 they passed new laws that would get someone back to work sooner. These are cultural differences and hard for some of us to understand. We go on vacation and they go on holiday. Sweden is nice too, as far as leisure time goes. I guess you could call them work hard and play harder countries.
In the case of Germany, I call it a country that has an unemployment rate twice that of the U.S. (if the same standards of measurement are used), and a country that is faced with outsourcing challenges as well. But those are German problems, and I leave it to them to find the best way to meet those challenges.
dallasdude: So if you think that Americans should do as Japan and make Toyota's and Honda's.
Americans are already making Toyotas and Hondas in Kentucky, Texas and Ohio. They seem to be doing a pretty good job of it, too.
dallasdude: Yes bring all those lean ideas to America and we too will be winners. Well the fact is that they teach the ideas in business schools. Only the ideas they see fitting. Never the idea that a CEO can only be compensated fifteen times the highest paid employee. Never mention the manner that employees are taken in as family and educated. The company also takes an active interest in that employees family.
And they also never mention that employees' behavior is monitored far more closely than most Americans would ever accept. That "active interest" is a double-edged sword.
Henry Ford I did just this when he instituted his famous $5-a-day wage in 1914. People forget that not every worker was eligible for this wage. Workers had to prove that they were "worthy" of such a wage by being married and having children. They also had to refrain from drinking, gambling, etc. Do you think that today's American workers would ever stand for such scrutiny into their personal lives, whether it comes from Ford or Toyota?
dallasdude: VW (front wheel drive) and Germany are two different things. Its like making Germans buy at Walmart.
The main reason Walmart didn't succeed is that Germany already has a similar, homegrown chain - ALDI. And it has been successful, even though many Germans level the same charges at ALDI that we do at Walmart (they sell junk, it's for poor people who don't know any better, they mistreat workers, etc.).
If you are trying to suggest that VW is not popular in Germany, or that Germans only regard it as a bottom-feeder (much like we view Kia), that is not true. Germans regard VW much the same way Americans regarded Chevrolet in the late 1950s and through the 1960s - as a local mass-market brand that people feel proud to own. The VW Golf is the most popular car in Germany (has been for years), and people eagerly await news on the latest versions, much as we used to wait for news on each year's new Chevrolet lineup.
dallasdude: But your right, VW is a German company and it is front wheel drive. Is it the only one?
Audi has sold front--wheel-drive vehicles for years, and Ford of Germany and Opel sell front-wheel-drive vehicles as well. The Fords and Opels are quite popular - especially Opel, which is usually the second-most popular marque in Germany.
Only BMW, Mercedes and Porsche focus on rear-wheel-drive vehicles.
dallasdude: The Pizza Hut employee in Europe has health benefits that he/she doesn't have here in the states is also interesting. Does that add to the cost of the pizza?
Yes, go to Europe and you will discover that the price of many goods is higher than it is here, and this was before the dollar tanked in value.
dallasdude: Then too the cost per employee of Walmart on the rest of taxpayers is estimated at $2000 a year per employee in taxpayer funded indigent social services.
Actually, Walmart did offer a basic policy, but, as one store manager said, it's hard find the money to pay for health insurance when fancy wheels, cell phones and expensive nail jobs are more important.
dallasdude: First the indigent working class wouldn't seek medical attention in emergency rooms, which isn't cost effective.
We've had this discussion at work - there is no proof that: a. certain classes of people would take care of themselves if their health care would be free: and b. shifting costs from the emergency rooms to regular doctors will save money.
Regarding point a, I offer this anecdote. The Pennsylvania Dental Association visited my office to discuss state funds to provide free dental care to the children of poor parents. One of the biggest problems the association faced was...parents not keeping appointments for their children's dental examinations.
The care was being provided for FREE and parents could not be bothered to show up for the appointment.
Another example - note that obesity is more common among the poor than among the rich. Note how few Hollywood starlets and socialites, for example, are fat. For that matter, go to an upscale shopping area, and count the number of fat people you see among either the customers (especially the women) or even the salespeople.
Then go to a poor area and check out the number of truly obese people. As one African immigrant said, "I wanted to come to a country where even the poor people can afford to eat too much."
Given that obesity is the root of many illnesses, and food availability is obviously not the core problem (starving people aren't overweight), this boils down to individuals not properly managing their appetite and not placing a priority on their health. Some people just don't do this very well, and won't do it - unless the government basically starts mandating what they eat. Giving them free health care won't work - especially considering that many of them are already eligible for Medical Assistance or state insurance programs for the working poor.
As to the second point, you are merely shifting costs. If people really start taking care of themselves, they will visit a regular doctors more often, which increases costs. Or they will continue to wait until the problem IS a full-blown emergency, which will still require expensive, intensive care. I'm betting on the latter...
So no one (nary a soul) would keep their appointment? Preposterous!!!
There is no question that someone going to seek emergency care for a cold is an overkill and not cost effective. No sane and rational person would even argue this fact. Preventive care is another question and should also be promoted.
At $9 an hour and 35 hours a week, you just can't pay the insurance premium and live. The wages do not reflect the true cost of these employees and therefore Walmart should make up the $2000 a year per employee, just to keep the accounting right and not burden the local taxpayers. The Fact is that $2000 a year per employee is borne by the taxpayer. I'm just stating the fact that THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH. You should just say that you rather pay higher property/income taxes and are happy with the status quo.
dallasdude: So no one (nary a soul) would keep their appointment? Preposterous!!!
I never said that...I said that the BIGGEST problem was that MANY people didn't keep the appointment. If they can't be bothered to take their child for a FREE dental appointment, this suggests that the problem goes much deeper than a mere lack of access to affordable health and dental care. It speaks to priorities and discipline.
dallasdude: There is no question that someone going to seek emergency care for a cold is an overkill and not cost effective. No sane and rational person would even argue this fact.
Sorry, but there is no proof that shifting people to regular care will necessarily lower costs over the long run (especially if they don't change their personal habits). There is also no proof that people will exercise the measures - which involve BEHAVIORAL changes that the individual must make - necessary to prevent the need for emergency care in the first place.
dallasdude: Preventive care is another question and should also be promoted.
Very true. But promoting it, and having people take advantage of it, are two entirely different things.
dallasdude: At $9 an hour and 35 hours a week, you just can't pay the insurance premium and live.
It doesn't seem to prevent the purchase of cell phones, tatoos and expensive nail jobs.
Like many people, you have this romanticized vision of the poor and why they are in their predicament, perhaps influenced by Les Miserables. My wife is a former social worker, and now teaches special education in an urban school district that caters largely to poor students. As such, she and her co-teacher must deal regularly with the parents of these students. She also has experience in dealing with the poor through her days as a social worker.
Let's just say that she, not to mention her co-teacher, aren't blaming George Bush, rich people, Republicans, or the fact that Rick Wagoner makes millions a year to run GM into the ground (which is certainly a worthy topic of discussion, but it has nothing to do with why there are poor people) for the plight of the poor. I have the sneaking suspicion that you will not like her answers, but given that she has frontline experience with this issue, I'm inclined to take her word over yours.
dallasdude: The Fact is that $2000 a year per employee is borne by the taxpayer. I'm just stating the fact that THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH. You should just say that you rather pay higher property/income taxes and are happy with the status quo.
And, if this country completely nationalizes health care, which entity will pay for it?
That's right - the federal government.
And what is the source of the money that the federal government will use to pay for this care?
No one denies that luxury and premium sports cars usually use rear wheel drive.
But for economy cars and family sedans, front wheel drive is here to stay. Its more space efficient, and allows lighter construction (which brings about better fuel economy). VW and Opel aren't about to abandon the front-wheel-drive format for the Lupo, Polo, Golf/Rabbit, Passat, Astra, Corsa or Vectra.
"Chrysler workers represented by the UAW will receive supplemental unemployment benefits for up to 48 weeks. The benefits guarantee most of their base salary.
Then, Chrysler will put those workers back on the payroll for up to two years, earning their regular base pay. At the same time, they will be in a "Jobs Bank," where they will wait for work or a chance to transfer to another Chrysler plant."
"Magna’s profits dropped more than 13 percent in the second quarter, as the Canadian auto parts supplier dealt with slumping auto sales as a result of a slowing economy.
More than 2,000 people work at the plant.
In an afternoon press conference, UAW Local 624 chief Scott Stanton said, "We just ratified a contract, like everybody is aware, only a few months back and the ink's hardly dry. You can imagine our members are somewhat upset, and I don't blame them. But we will do everything we can to keep this business in Syracuse."
Do you think that today's American workers would ever stand for such scrutiny into their personal lives, whether it comes from Ford or Toyota?
That depends on the job. If you work for the oil companies in the Arctic you live by their rules. If they find alcohol in your room which they search on a regular basis you are on the next flight out. Of course drugs are strictly taboo, with regular drug tests. The zero tolerance includes your own time. They provide food and housing you live by their rules. One of the bottles off the airline will get you fired. I know guys that have lost their jobs over one 1 oz bottle found in their locker.
How do they keep the Unions out? $100k+ per year for 26 weeks work for starters. There are Unions attached to the Oil companies like BP. They are rare. The non-Union guys doing what we did for the service side of the field are making $150k per year. One of our guys left the Union and went back to Conoco Phillips after he was vested in the Teamster's retirement plan. He is making about $25k more per year with equal benefits as a NON UNION technician. I don't think they will be signing cards to go Union.
"We've had this discussion at work - there is no proof that: a. certain classes of people would take care of themselves if their health care would be free: and b. shifting costs from the emergency rooms to regular doctors will save money."
You see, after 21 years on the local volunteer fire dept., I see it all the time: people w/ no health insurace use the Emergency room as their primary care physician. Why??? Hospitals are required to offer basic care, REGARDLESS of ABILITY to PAY. Go to the local MD, and the sign says; PAYMENT REQUIRED AT TIME OF APPOINTMENT. if you are uninsured, what will you choose???
Try getting an appointment the same day at your regular doc some day. My elderly mom gets sent to the ER by her GP at least once a year when they can't fit her in. She'd rather go sit at the doc's office. She's on Medicare with Blue Cross supplemental that she pays $90 a month for. She got sent to the ER twice last month for relatively minor stuff.
None of which seems especially related to the topic at hand.
First you can get the group discount that all the HMOs, POSs, PPOs and the likes get now. They blackmail the doctors, hospitals, and all of the health care industry into being on their list of preferred providers. To be on the list you give them a discount and charge what they see fitting. Its called managed care. Then the drug companies have to get their products on the formulary chart and therefore have to charge what the managed care providers say. If a health care provider opts out of the list, they are excluded from seeing those patients. Some say that these managed care companies are practicing medicine. However, there is no disputing that John or Jane Doe walking off the street pay much more than the negotiated rates. So there is your savings, since you would have to pay from tax revenues regardless via the county hospitals. Anything is better than whats in place now.
Maybe Health care is related. It is the biggest expense the automakers have next to the actual wages. When I left the Teamsters in 2006 our company was paying over $6 per hour for our medical plan that was poor compared to the one we had in the 1980s.
Our company was going to put us on the non union plan and it was more expense because ours covered all dependents, while the company Blue Shield charged additional for each dependent. We had 2 techs with 3 kids. That was like $1500 per month.
Health care may be the end of US. Something needs to be done. I don't see the government fixing it. They will just make it worse. I sure don't want a system like Canada or the UK.
Sorry your wife doesn't like her job. The stereotyping is beyond is just that stereotyping and pathetic at that. Are all UAW folks in the mafia? All rich people are skinny and fit? Please spare us. I live in an affluent neighborhood and we see them fat cats all the time. Lots of them stuff their faces with twinkies and have a cola chaser prior to going to the gym. Thats why they need Hummers to carry their fat behinds around. Everyone knows that you have to have money to graze all day. you just can't lose weight while watching TV and popping bon bons. Also is no way you can lose weight on the golf course if you use a golf cart. This is the idle rich/leisure class you admire so much.
Maybe Health care is related. It is the biggest expense the automakers have next to the actual wages.
Lots of people say that's one big reason why most foreign automakers have an edge over Detroit, union workers or not. Everyone has to pay into the system so some sectors aren't having to pay through the nose for their employees to enjoy coverage. My wife has had minor health care vacationing in Canada and the UK (two ER trips) and the care was fine. In the case of the UK, it was free too.
Oh, so I see. A drug dealer in the family. Likewise, my spouse engages in the drug business. However, she deals with MS patients. Those who can't afford the drugs are considered on a case by case basis. There is a charity fund set up to aid the indigent. Is it a hassle? Absolutely! I sit on a few foundations which are set up to help the human condition and are the last resort for many. We have to make sure that the money is spent wisely as intended by the givers and the greatest impact is obtained. I can speak for all involved that we take this responsibility seriously.
On a universities admissions committee each scholarship given, means someone else is overlooked. Then the failure rate by the worthy recipients means, they have lost that scholarship. The funds are available for others. One can only look at the merit of each applicant and hope for the best. I like to put the burden on them. Just saying that "you won, now the onus is on you to keep that scholarship", challenges them. Young people will surprise you when you least expect it. If it were only one in ten, and that one goes on to do great things and or touch another's life, we are all the richer for that.
If you take the time to talk to these young folks, you find that they are extremely bright in their own way. Then too the least of them will surprise you if you look deeply. I refuse to think that I can't make a difference. We can all touch someone and thereby help shape the future. Who knows? They may all drive UAW built Caddy's.
The BIG question. Can companies Union or Non Union afford health care for their employees? Does the average McDonald's worker generate enough revenue to justify a $1000 per month in health care cost? Does the average UAW member generate enough to justify the high cost of health care?
Interesting questions. I wonder if it isn't time to stagger the minimum wage. Set one tier for students, one for trainees and one for people w/ experience. As far as healthcare, maybe it's time for the gov't to pick up the tab for anyone under 18 and over 70. Everybody else is on their own. This should make it more affordable for companies to pick up the tab for everybody else.
BTW, ever notice that while we argue the merits of who pays for healthcare, the fatcats who run the Blue Crosses of the world just jack up our rates, squeeze smaller payments out of the doctors, and do so unchecked??? Nobody questions why. Or what we can do to reform the system?? And no nonsense about them being non-profits, because here in RI, Blue Cross is building a $250 MILLION complex, and United healthcare wanted to send $38 MILLION in "profits" back to the mother company.
We already have Medicare for those of us over 65. They take $90+ from my Social Security check and I pay a co-pay to Kaiser. Not bad. Do not know if the coverage is any good. I have not used it, thankfully.
First, I don't think there should be ANY free medical. There should always be a co-pay for each visit to doctor or ER. It does not have to be a large amount. Just enough that we don't have them jammed with in grown toe nails. If you miss an appointment the co-pay is double when you do show up.
Our 100% plan with the Teamsters was good. Problem people were going for the most lame reasons you can imagine. It almost broke the system back in the 1970s. If you do not have $20 for the doctor you are probably gonna die of starvation anyway. No sense wasting a Dr's time.
The HMOs are looking mighty suspicious to me also. They almost have a monopoly in some places. I think overall Kaiser is the best I have run across. It is only available in a few states.
with "free" health care, or mandated health care, is that you are, in effect, forcing someone to donate their time, skills for free when they could have used it for generating income...
No one forces a car dealer to give a car to one who cannot pay for it...no one forces Publix to give groceries to one who cannot pay for it...no one forces Sports Authority to give shoes to one who cannot pay for it...
And, let me tell you an absolute truth about the poor, which can never be proven, yet everyone knows it...they hang out with people like themselves, so, if you help out one, they never refer any PAYING business to you, they only refer more deadbeats like themselves, so the temptation of any shopowner is to avoid them, otherwise you could find your waiting room full of nonpaying customer/clients, yet they don't reduce my power bill when my clients don't pay, they don't reduce my rent, my insurance...etc...
In fact, any professional who needs any kind of malpractice insurance is stupid to offer services to the poor, simply because they are the first to line up and sue you, which causes your malpractice rates to go up...yet the "do-gooders" only see the poor, not the consequences of offering your services at a discount to the poor...
Plus, the poor have no sense of value...rather than see the value in the service you donated to them, all they see is zero value, because, paradoxically, if you will give it away, it certainly has no value...
Avoid the poor and simply keep a large "negative" out of your life...instead, donate $$$ to those organizations who work directly with them, so your $$$ can help, but your psyche stays grounded with normal people...except my Uncle Albert, but he's another story...:):):):):)
with "free" health care, or mandated health care, is that you are, in effect, forcing someone to donate their time, skills for free when they could have used it for generating income...
Isn't that, in effect, what happens when the poor walk into an ER w/ the common cold?
Lets face it no system would be fool-proof, but something HAS to be better than this.
My oldest went to Peru (last year) in the summer to do FREE work at the mouth of the Amazon. Indoor plumbing and electric generators, well just plumbing. These were poor folks if there is such a thing. Then there is a young doctor who went to two countries in South America to do FREE work with the poor. Last time I checked he was in Africa doing FREE services again. I think the Gates Foundation is picking up the cost. However, the time and efforts are not compensated and or the opportunity costs.
Marsha is right in that these folks will be doomed if they don't hang around better folks. Therefore, each poor family needs to have both a sponsor and mentor. These mentors and sponsors need to step up and offer their wealth of knowledge as well be a positive role model.
Collectively as taxpayers we pay for many things. Like roads, schools, and other services. The automakers can and will pass the cost down to the consumer. All UAW contracts are passed down to the consumer. They have been for eons, and none of the Big Three have had issue with the fantastic insurance afforded the UAW membership. However, with the baby boomer's aging we have a bottleneck in the system, which time will cure. If all automakers have the same cost, none of them has an advantage. Overseas, this may be a problem, since the cost is spread out among all taxpayers. The demographics are as such, that when the baby boomer's are gone, the health costs will go down. So I would not want any change which would create havoc on the next generation and or hamper innovation.
Well obviously based on the way the last elections went and the way this presidential election will go I think the majority of people in this country are beginning to see my point of view and don't want 4 more years of oil based economic policy in their government !!!
Don't even go there !!! To believe that the UAW is the "root cause" to GM's failures is IMHO totally ridiculous !!! Roger Smith, would of made his wallet fatter with the savings and would of baught some other failing company and let it bleed GM dry. It was GM's management team in the 70's and 80's that severely damaged GM. You can't sell cars like the 1980's/90's Grand-Am's, Corsica's, etc, and not expect people to jump ship. GM's customer service is horrible and while they've made small gains they are still lacking severely in this area !!!
The BMW workers in Germany, are unionized. How does BMW, manage to make superior products with a union that makes the UAW look like [non-permissible content removed] cats circlew ??? Come-on I'm waiting for a answer ??? They can throw a BMW badge on an AVEO, and it would sell like hot cakes !!! The BMW, worker automatically gets one-months vacation, more holidays, a very high starting wage, pension, national health care, 35 hour work-week, every weekend off, company paid breakfast last time I checked, beer served at lunch last time I checked, so how does BMW, make a profit with all these benefits ???? Come-on I'm still waiting ??? Could it be that they have better management and make cars people can't live without ???? Nahhh, that couldn't be it !!!!
I think the lets blame it on the UAW, approach often preached in these forums is just crazy !!! :mad: How bout the JAW, in Japan ??? How does Toyota, make so much money using union labor to build its cars ????
Just re read what I just said for a momment and perhaps just maybe some of the hyperbole I hear might become just a faint whisper ???? :P
Perhaps, but remember people in this forum believe that the United Auto Workers, designs, builds, engineers, manages, the big 3. Oops, did I just say that out loud ???
Rocky, I agree, UAW only a part of the entire problem that the US auto industry imploded on. All the stars lined up on the downside over many years of blind arrogance on all sides!
The BMW workers in Germany, are unionized. How does BMW, manage to make superior products with a union that makes the UAW look like [non-permissible content removed] cats circlew ??? Come-on I'm waiting for a answer ???
BMW builds 160,000 vehicles per year in the South Carolina plant. It is state of the art with 5400 employees. I have not heard any rumblings of labor discontent. I am sure they do not have the cradle to grave mentality of the German operations. I have to wonder if the MB, BMW & VW Union workers in Germany are screaming about all the plants that are moving to the USA where they get CHEAPER labor.
You should try Canada for a while. My dad took a job in Canada, and left after 6 months. It is not all it seems. They got lots of Unions and lots more taxes. I wonder if the guy working the line in the Mercedes plant in Germany can afford a new S550 or SL550? I'll bet more UAW workers owned Caddies than German MB or BMW workers own their top of the line cars.
Just as this country has been living above its means for the last 50 years, so have the UAW workers. Whether you are willing to accept it or not there are people willing to do the same work as those in the Big 3 plants for less money. And be happy to have the job. Main reason so many companies are re-locating to the South. CA has lost a lot of good companies to other states. Over taxing, high labor cost, high cost of land and tougher regulations.
South Carolina has lost 250,000 jobs since 1990. Is there a difference between fair trade and free trade? Why does the media not report the lost of 250,000 jobs, but reports the 5,400 jobs gained. At 12.50 an hour these are just jobs and not anything to brag about. They will certainly pass any savings on labor to the consumer. Certainly these employees can't afford their product as niether can those who make sneakers overseas afford a pair.
The largest market for these vehicles, however, is the U.S., which is the rationale for locating the plant there: "Our philosophy is to build the vehicles closest to their largest market," explained Dr. Clemens Schmitz-Justenat, President of BMW Manufacturing Co. at the 2007 BMW X5 press introduction.
g wrote : "The BIG question. Can companies Union or Non Union afford health care for their employees? Does the average McDonald's worker generate enough revenue to justify a $1000 per month in health care cost? Does the average UAW member generate enough to justify the high cost of health care? " A very interesting question indeed. Now this is not against the Democratic party, against Hillary maybe but not the party . Now ,if I were to be in favor of universal health care would I choose the US where the boomers predominate or the fictional country that had the majority of strapping helathy young people who paid but did not collect with a minority of older people.The latter methinks. Notice : I do not work for any HMO, but you know what ? I feel a little sorry for them. They want to provide good health care but with congress prostituting themselves for votes refusing to give them cost rebates despite the upward pressures. Rather like: perform good health care and do it for nothing but I'll be re-elected denying you re-imbursement because we know you are the bad guys.They do nickle and dime and are guilty of bad behavior but are pushed into it by our shameful congress who mandates, do a good job but don't get paid for it, while I suck up to my constituency. To tell you the truth I don't really worry about health care reform. It's one of those fun topics to discuss but with a nine trillion dollar national debt soon to be ten and a half trillion dollar budget deficit this year and next and with 10% of all tax revenues simply going to pay the interest on the national debt there is no way it can be afforded.
Which is why the conduct of America's corporate titans in China is so disquieting. There, since March of last year, the government has been considering a labor law that promises a smidgen of increase in workers' rights. And since March of last year, the American businesses so mightily invested in China have mightily fought it.
Beyond the Starbucks of Shanghai, the China of workers and peasants is a sea of unrest, roiled by thousands of strikes and protests that the regime routinely represses. Cognizant that they need to do something to quell the causes of unrest, some of China's rulers have entertained modest changes to the country's labor law. The legislation wouldn't allow workers to form independent trade unions or grant them the right to strike -- this is, after all, a communist regime. It would, however, require employers to provide employees, either individually or collectively, with written contracts. It would allow employees to change jobs within their industries or get jobs in related industries in other regions; employers have hitherto been able to thwart this by invoking statutes on proprietary information. It would also require that companies bargain with worker representatives over health and safety conditions.
It's not as if Chinese unions would use these laws to run roughshod over employers. Chinese unions are not, strictly speaking, unions at all. They remain controlled by the Communist Party. Their locals can be and frequently are headed by plant managers, whether the workers want them or not. And yet, these changes proved too radical for America's leading corporations.
As documented by Global Labor Strategies, a U.S.-based nonprofit organization headed by longtime labor activists, the American Chamber of Commerce in Shanghai and the U.S.-China Business Council embarked on a major campaign to kill these tepid reforms. Last April, one month after the legislation was first floated, the chamber sent a 42-page document to the Chinese government on behalf of its 1,300 members -- including General Electric, Microsoft, Dell, Ford and dozens of other household brand names -- objecting to these minimal increases in worker power. In its public comments on the proposed law, GE declared that it strongly preferred "consultation" with workers to "securing worker representative approval" on a range of its labor practices.
Based on a second draft of the law, completed in December, it looks like American businesses have substantially prevailed. Key provisions were weakened; if an employer elects not to issue written contracts, workers are guaranteed only the wages of similar employees -- with the employer apparently free to define who, exactly, is similar. Business is relieved: Facing "increased pressure to allow the establishment of unions in companies," Andreas Lauff, a Hong Kong-based corporate attorney, wrote in the Jan. 30 Financial Times, "comments from the business community appear to have had an impact." The new draft "scaled back protections for employees and sharply curtailed the role of unions."
Phew!
Admittedly, a few nettlesome issues remain. First, about one-fourth of the global labor force is in China. Opposing steps toward the formation of unions there suppresses the wages of so many workers that its effect is felt worldwide. Second, since authoritarian China remains an adversary of the United States and a backer of some genuinely dangerous authoritarian regimes, blocking even the most modest steps toward the development of a civil society and democratic rights there poses a threat to U.S. security interests. Third, since the Bush administration champions the spread of democracy globally, why hasn't it taken America's leading corporations to task for retarding democracy's growth in China? And fourth, since preserving our national security should require executives at companies such as GE to answer for their conduct, where's the House Un-American Activities Committee now that we really need it?
March 12th, 2008 Posted in An Economy for All Unions Unions appear in the Pew research as a natural counterweight to big business. Contrary to the opinions of those who contend that unions drive labor costs up and make U.S. industry uncompetitive, unions appear virtually blameless (6%) in the Pew survey of who’s to blame. Indeed, people see unions closer to the solution.
A Gallup survey of adults in August 2007 found 60% approval of labor unions and only 32% disapproval, and that Americans want unions to have more influence (35%), not less (28%). An older survey by Gallup in August 2005 revealed that “in labor disputes,” people’s sympathies tend to be “on the side of unions” (52%) not “on the side of the companies” (34%).
More recent polling of adults by Peter Hart for the AFL-CIO in December 2006 revealed that people want to join unions: 53% of non-union, non-managerial workers would vote to join a union if they could; 42% would not. People recognize collective action as the natural counterbalance to big business, and they support labor law reform that will result in more workers being able to bargain with their employers for better wages, benefits and working conditions.
Well their is a huge difference in features, size, fit and finish, between a six-figure flagship like the S-class and a $50-65K Cadillac's STS. I don't know of any UAW, employees that own "new" STS's and with the new two-tier wage structure at GM, Delphi, American Axel, etc it is virtually impossible to own one unless your spouse has a great job !!! Back in the day if a UAW employee wanted to give up owning a boat, couple of jetski's, snowmobile, and upgrade the car they wanted to drive then sure owning a Seville STS, was possible on their wages. Well that was also back before the housing boom also but hey I use to see a few GM, employees own new Cadillac's. Now they'd be luck to afford a 4 or 5 year old one.
The only reason why we have such a cost of labor issue is because big business wants to make slaves out of the Chinese, Indians, Mexicans, and in those country's they have no enviromental regard and can pollute the ground, air, at will. If we get rid of NAFTA, and implement very high tariffs on all imported goods then perhaps a corporation paying a livable wage for blue-collar workers in this country can become a reality again. The fact that the Germans, are allowing BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagon, to build as much as they have outside of their country does really surprise me. The German, citizens will get fed up with it and revolt because they can't afford to lose jobs.
>Back in the day if a UAW employee wanted to give up owning a boat, couple of jetski's, snowmobile, and upgrade the car they wanted to drive then sure owning a Seville STS, was possible on their wages.
I'm going to disagree with you there. I can show you the GM enhanced housing areas where extraordinarily large homes were built by GM-related folk in new regions that were farmland overfilling the schools in those areas for a while and taxing the roads. This started about 2 decades ago. This came about the time the Moraine GM plant was built after the Frigidaire and lots of Delco parts factories closed in the area.
These folk had everything. They live large. I haven't talked to a real estate agent or someone who would know what the trend is for those folk now, but I suspect a lot of them transferred jobs as the jobs shrank here and moved. I don't know if they had to sell their summer home in Michigan or their boats and the kids' BMWs.
>German, citizens will get fed up with it and revolt because they can't afford to lose jobs.
Maybe that's why the Germans are idolizing OBama at the rock star event. They hope he'll ruin this country , the jobs will disappear here, and jobs will return to Germany. :confuse: :sick:
The fact that the Germans, are allowing BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagon, to build as much as they have outside of their country does really surprise me. The German, citizens will get fed up with it and revolt because they can't afford to lose jobs.
I doubt that very seriously. You keep forgetting the latest polls on satisfaction with life. 85% of Americans are satisfied with their lives. They don't like a lot of things but they are doing well. I imagine Germany is just about the same. I doubt that Germans as a whole have the standard of living that we have here in the USA. German companies have had factories in the USA for a long time. I remember in the 1970s when VW built factories here to satisfy the demand for their cars. Now they are doing that again. That huge BMW factory in So Carolina was built in 1992 and is very prosperous. I know that Mercedes just started building the Sprinter in So Carolina. When BMW starts delivering their new X5 diesel this fall it will be built in South Carolina. I am seriously thinking of buying one. The Big 3 or the Japanese do not have anything to compete. Then I sell this gas guzzling Toyota.
I will be buying an American built vehicle. I imagine the people building it are just as happy or happier than the UAW people that are always complaining and lamenting how it was in the good old days. If a person is not happy with their job and their life. It is their responsibility to make a change. I did back in 1970 when I picked up and moved to Alaska. There is always going to be change. It is up to each individual to make the best of it. Unless you want a system that tells you what you are best suited for and you are stuck there for life. The more you expect of the government the more they take control of your life. I don't want to live like they do in China or the old Soviet Union or even Canada where there is no freedom of speech.
Comments
So if you think that Americans should do as Japan and make Toyota's and Honda's. Because they sell and therefore are doing something right. Yes bring all those lean ideas to America and we too will be winners. Well the fact is that they teach the ideas in business schools. Only the ideas they see fitting. Never the idea that a CEO can only be compensated fifteen times the highest paid employee. Never mention the manner that employees are taken in as family and educated. The company also takes an active interest in that employees family.
So a company in America,Germany, or Japan are entirely different concepts.
VW (front wheel drive) and Germany are two different things. Its like making Germans buy at Walmart. They just don't like fecal matter and thats why Walmart had to hightail it out of there. But your right, VW is a German company and it is front wheel drive. Is it the only one?
Better yet make it $30.
Regards,
OW
Would that include $10 per hour for benefit package? Or in addition to the benefits? I think minimum wage is high enough. Most places here pay way over the minimum anyway. I think McDonald's starts at about $8 per hour. That is plenty for a kid living at home while going to community college. The only job I recently heard of paying minimum wage is Union. The Safeway contract that was hammered out over that long stupid strike and lockout, has the starting wage based on the minimum wage. A friend that works at Von's told us they are having a hard time getting new employees.
You don't think that a minimum wage of $20 per hour would cause massive inflation?
Better yet make it $40. That way everybody would be living large.
The right contends that raising the minimum wage eliminates jobs. They state that if the additional output of that employee is not enough to cover his/her wage, the employer will not hire and or do business.
The left on the other hand agrees that at first some jobs are forgone. However, the additional wages from those enjoying an increase in the minimum wage will create additional jobs via the multiplier effect of the additional spending by those who have increases in income borne of the higher minimum wage.
The Pizza Hut employee in Europe has health benefits that he/she doesn't have here in the states is also interesting. Does that add to the cost of the pizza? Then too the cost per employee of Walmart on the rest of taxpayers is estimated at $2000 a year per employee in taxpayer funded indigent social services. So does this mean that a Walmart being built in the neighborhood equate into higher property/income taxes to pay for benefits which could have been factored into their wages and or prices paid by those who frequent Walmart?
So is this pick your poison? Either factor the benefits into the wages/prices and or pay higher taxes via property/income. The UAW and or union way would more than likely factor this into the cost of product or service. One could argue that this would save money in the long run. First the indigent working class wouldn't seek medical attention in emergency rooms, which isn't cost effective. Then too an agency to administer the allocation of medical services, nutrition programs, and other social programs isn't needed to take care of the working indigent.
It IS a private concern. As I said before, it is entirely owned by the Porsche and Piech families, who are descended from Ferdinand Porsche. A private company can be unionized, but that doesn't make it any less of a private concern (as opposed to a nationalized one, as Renault was until 1996).
dallasdude: If they layoff/fire an employee, they have a hard time getting that person to go back to work. Not that Germany is the only country that pays excellent unemployment compensation. Back in 2004 they passed new laws that would get someone back to work sooner. These are cultural differences and hard for some of us to understand. We go on vacation and they go on holiday. Sweden is nice too, as far as leisure time goes. I guess you could call them work hard and play harder countries.
In the case of Germany, I call it a country that has an unemployment rate twice that of the U.S. (if the same standards of measurement are used), and a country that is faced with outsourcing challenges as well. But those are German problems, and I leave it to them to find the best way to meet those challenges.
dallasdude: So if you think that Americans should do as Japan and make Toyota's and Honda's.
Americans are already making Toyotas and Hondas in Kentucky, Texas and Ohio. They seem to be doing a pretty good job of it, too.
dallasdude: Yes bring all those lean ideas to America and we too will be winners. Well the fact is that they teach the ideas in business schools. Only the ideas they see fitting. Never the idea that a CEO can only be compensated fifteen times the highest paid employee. Never mention the manner that employees are taken in as family and educated. The company also takes an active interest in that employees family.
And they also never mention that employees' behavior is monitored far more closely than most Americans would ever accept. That "active interest" is a double-edged sword.
Henry Ford I did just this when he instituted his famous $5-a-day wage in 1914. People forget that not every worker was eligible for this wage. Workers had to prove that they were "worthy" of such a wage by being married and having children. They also had to refrain from drinking, gambling, etc. Do you think that today's American workers would ever stand for such scrutiny into their personal lives, whether it comes from Ford or Toyota?
dallasdude: VW (front wheel drive) and Germany are two different things. Its like making Germans buy at Walmart.
The main reason Walmart didn't succeed is that Germany already has a similar, homegrown chain - ALDI. And it has been successful, even though many Germans level the same charges at ALDI that we do at Walmart (they sell junk, it's for poor people who don't know any better, they mistreat workers, etc.).
If you are trying to suggest that VW is not popular in Germany, or that Germans only regard it as a bottom-feeder (much like we view Kia), that is not true. Germans regard VW much the same way Americans regarded Chevrolet in the late 1950s and through the 1960s - as a local mass-market brand that people feel proud to own. The VW Golf is the most popular car in Germany (has been for years), and people eagerly await news on the latest versions, much as we used to wait for news on each year's new Chevrolet lineup.
dallasdude: But your right, VW is a German company and it is front wheel drive. Is it the only one?
Audi has sold front--wheel-drive vehicles for years, and Ford of Germany and Opel sell front-wheel-drive vehicles as well. The Fords and Opels are quite popular - especially Opel, which is usually the second-most popular marque in Germany.
Only BMW, Mercedes and Porsche focus on rear-wheel-drive vehicles.
Yes, go to Europe and you will discover that the price of many goods is higher than it is here, and this was before the dollar tanked in value.
dallasdude: Then too the cost per employee of Walmart on the rest of taxpayers is estimated at $2000 a year per employee in taxpayer funded indigent social services.
Actually, Walmart did offer a basic policy, but, as one store manager said, it's hard find the money to pay for health insurance when fancy wheels, cell phones and expensive nail jobs are more important.
dallasdude: First the indigent working class wouldn't seek medical attention in emergency rooms, which isn't cost effective.
We've had this discussion at work - there is no proof that: a. certain classes of people would take care of themselves if their health care would be free: and b. shifting costs from the emergency rooms to regular doctors will save money.
Regarding point a, I offer this anecdote. The Pennsylvania Dental Association visited my office to discuss state funds to provide free dental care to the children of poor parents. One of the biggest problems the association faced was...parents not keeping appointments for their children's dental examinations.
The care was being provided for FREE and parents could not be bothered to show up for the appointment.
Another example - note that obesity is more common among the poor than among the rich. Note how few Hollywood starlets and socialites, for example, are fat. For that matter, go to an upscale shopping area, and count the number of fat people you see among either the customers (especially the women) or even the salespeople.
Then go to a poor area and check out the number of truly obese people. As one African immigrant said, "I wanted to come to a country where even the poor people can afford to eat too much."
Given that obesity is the root of many illnesses, and food availability is obviously not the core problem (starving people aren't overweight), this boils down to individuals not properly managing their appetite and not placing a priority on their health. Some people just don't do this very well, and won't do it - unless the government basically starts mandating what they eat. Giving them free health care won't work - especially considering that many of them are already eligible for Medical Assistance or state insurance programs for the working poor.
As to the second point, you are merely shifting costs. If people really start taking care of themselves, they will visit a regular doctors more often, which increases costs. Or they will continue to wait until the problem IS a full-blown emergency, which will still require expensive, intensive care. I'm betting on the latter...
There is no question that someone going to seek emergency care for a cold is an overkill and not cost effective. No sane and rational person would even argue this fact. Preventive care is another question and should also be promoted.
At $9 an hour and 35 hours a week, you just can't pay the insurance premium and live. The wages do not reflect the true cost of these employees and therefore Walmart should make up the $2000 a year per employee, just to keep the accounting right and not burden the local taxpayers. The Fact is that $2000 a year per employee is borne by the taxpayer. I'm just stating the fact that THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH. You should just say that you rather pay higher property/income taxes and are happy with the status quo.
I never said that...I said that the BIGGEST problem was that MANY people didn't keep the appointment. If they can't be bothered to take their child for a FREE dental appointment, this suggests that the problem goes much deeper than a mere lack of access to affordable health and dental care. It speaks to priorities and discipline.
dallasdude: There is no question that someone going to seek emergency care for a cold is an overkill and not cost effective. No sane and rational person would even argue this fact.
Sorry, but there is no proof that shifting people to regular care will necessarily lower costs over the long run (especially if they don't change their personal habits). There is also no proof that people will exercise the measures - which involve BEHAVIORAL changes that the individual must make - necessary to prevent the need for emergency care in the first place.
dallasdude: Preventive care is another question and should also be promoted.
Very true. But promoting it, and having people take advantage of it, are two entirely different things.
dallasdude: At $9 an hour and 35 hours a week, you just can't pay the insurance premium and live.
It doesn't seem to prevent the purchase of cell phones, tatoos and expensive nail jobs.
Like many people, you have this romanticized vision of the poor and why they are in their predicament, perhaps influenced by Les Miserables. My wife is a former social worker, and now teaches special education in an urban school district that caters largely to poor students. As such, she and her co-teacher must deal regularly with the parents of these students. She also has experience in dealing with the poor through her days as a social worker.
Let's just say that she, not to mention her co-teacher, aren't blaming George Bush, rich people, Republicans, or the fact that Rick Wagoner makes millions a year to run GM into the ground (which is certainly a worthy topic of discussion, but it has nothing to do with why there are poor people) for the plight of the poor. I have the sneaking suspicion that you will not like her answers, but given that she has frontline experience with this issue, I'm inclined to take her word over yours.
And, if this country completely nationalizes health care, which entity will pay for it?
That's right - the federal government.
And what is the source of the money that the federal government will use to pay for this care?
That's right - the taxpayers.
I'm not seeing much of a change there...
I'm not seeing much of a change there...
What, my vote for Barack won't get all of us FREE healthcare? LOL
But for economy cars and family sedans, front wheel drive is here to stay. Its more space efficient, and allows lighter construction (which brings about better fuel economy). VW and Opel aren't about to abandon the front-wheel-drive format for the Lupo, Polo, Golf/Rabbit, Passat, Astra, Corsa or Vectra.
Then, Chrysler will put those workers back on the payroll for up to two years, earning their regular base pay. At the same time, they will be in a "Jobs Bank," where they will wait for work or a chance to transfer to another Chrysler plant."
Last day at work for 900 Chrysler workers at Fenton plant (STLtoday.com)
"Magna’s profits dropped more than 13 percent in the second quarter, as the Canadian auto parts supplier dealt with slumping auto sales as a result of a slowing economy.
More than 2,000 people work at the plant.
In an afternoon press conference, UAW Local 624 chief Scott Stanton said, "We just ratified a contract, like everybody is aware, only a few months back and the ink's hardly dry. You can imagine our members are somewhat upset, and I don't blame them. But we will do everything we can to keep this business in Syracuse."
Magna considering NPG plant closure (WSYR)
That depends on the job. If you work for the oil companies in the Arctic you live by their rules. If they find alcohol in your room which they search on a regular basis you are on the next flight out. Of course drugs are strictly taboo, with regular drug tests. The zero tolerance includes your own time. They provide food and housing you live by their rules. One of the bottles off the airline will get you fired. I know guys that have lost their jobs over one 1 oz bottle found in their locker.
How do they keep the Unions out? $100k+ per year for 26 weeks work for starters. There are Unions attached to the Oil companies like BP. They are rare. The non-Union guys doing what we did for the service side of the field are making $150k per year. One of our guys left the Union and went back to Conoco Phillips after he was vested in the Teamster's retirement plan. He is making about $25k more per year with equal benefits as a NON UNION technician. I don't think they will be signing cards to go Union.
You see, after 21 years on the local volunteer fire dept., I see it all the time: people w/ no health insurace use the Emergency room as their primary care physician. Why??? Hospitals are required to offer basic care, REGARDLESS of ABILITY to PAY. Go to the local MD, and the sign says; PAYMENT REQUIRED AT TIME OF APPOINTMENT. if you are uninsured, what will you choose???
None of which seems especially related to the topic at hand.
Our company was going to put us on the non union plan and it was more expense because ours covered all dependents, while the company Blue Shield charged additional for each dependent. We had 2 techs with 3 kids. That was like $1500 per month.
Health care may be the end of US. Something needs to be done. I don't see the government fixing it. They will just make it worse. I sure don't want a system like Canada or the UK.
Lots of people say that's one big reason why most foreign automakers have an edge over Detroit, union workers or not. Everyone has to pay into the system so some sectors aren't having to pay through the nose for their employees to enjoy coverage. My wife has had minor health care vacationing in Canada and the UK (two ER trips) and the care was fine. In the case of the UK, it was free too.
On a universities admissions committee each scholarship given, means someone else is overlooked. Then the failure rate by the worthy recipients means, they have lost that scholarship. The funds are available for others. One can only look at the merit of each applicant and hope for the best. I like to put the burden on them. Just saying that "you won, now the onus is on you to keep that scholarship", challenges them. Young people will surprise you when you least expect it. If it were only one in ten, and that one goes on to do great things and or touch another's life, we are all the richer for that.
If you take the time to talk to these young folks, you find that they are extremely bright in their own way. Then too the least of them will surprise you if you look deeply. I refuse to think that I can't make a difference. We can all touch someone and thereby help shape the future. Who knows? They may all drive UAW built Caddy's.
BTW, ever notice that while we argue the merits of who pays for healthcare, the fatcats who run the Blue Crosses of the world just jack up our rates, squeeze smaller payments out of the doctors, and do so unchecked??? Nobody questions why. Or what we can do to reform the system?? And no nonsense about them being non-profits, because here in RI, Blue Cross is building a $250 MILLION complex, and United healthcare wanted to send $38 MILLION in "profits" back to the mother company.
First, I don't think there should be ANY free medical. There should always be a co-pay for each visit to doctor or ER. It does not have to be a large amount. Just enough that we don't have them jammed with in grown toe nails. If you miss an appointment the co-pay is double when you do show up.
Our 100% plan with the Teamsters was good. Problem people were going for the most lame reasons you can imagine. It almost broke the system back in the 1970s. If you do not have $20 for the doctor you are probably gonna die of starvation anyway. No sense wasting a Dr's time.
The HMOs are looking mighty suspicious to me also. They almost have a monopoly in some places. I think overall Kaiser is the best I have run across. It is only available in a few states.
No one forces a car dealer to give a car to one who cannot pay for it...no one forces Publix to give groceries to one who cannot pay for it...no one forces Sports Authority to give shoes to one who cannot pay for it...
And, let me tell you an absolute truth about the poor, which can never be proven, yet everyone knows it...they hang out with people like themselves, so, if you help out one, they never refer any PAYING business to you, they only refer more deadbeats like themselves, so the temptation of any shopowner is to avoid them, otherwise you could find your waiting room full of nonpaying customer/clients, yet they don't reduce my power bill when my clients don't pay, they don't reduce my rent, my insurance...etc...
In fact, any professional who needs any kind of malpractice insurance is stupid to offer services to the poor, simply because they are the first to line up and sue you, which causes your malpractice rates to go up...yet the "do-gooders" only see the poor, not the consequences of offering your services at a discount to the poor...
Plus, the poor have no sense of value...rather than see the value in the service you donated to them, all they see is zero value, because, paradoxically, if you will give it away, it certainly has no value...
Avoid the poor and simply keep a large "negative" out of your life...instead, donate $$$ to those organizations who work directly with them, so your $$$ can help, but your psyche stays grounded with normal people...except my Uncle Albert, but he's another story...:):):):):)
Isn't that, in effect, what happens when the poor walk into an ER w/ the common cold?
Lets face it no system would be fool-proof, but something HAS to be better than this.
Indoorplumbing and electric generators, well just plumbing. These were poor folks if there is such a thing. Then there is a young doctor who went to two countries in South America to do FREE work with the poor. Last time I checked he was in Africa doing FREE services again. I think the Gates Foundation is picking up the cost. However, the time and efforts are not compensated and or the opportunity costs.Marsha is right in that these folks will be doomed if they don't hang around better folks. Therefore, each poor family needs to have both a sponsor and mentor. These mentors and sponsors need to step up and offer their wealth of knowledge as well be a positive role model.
Collectively as taxpayers we pay for many things. Like roads, schools, and other services. The automakers can and will pass the cost down to the consumer. All UAW contracts are passed down to the consumer. They have been for eons, and none of the Big Three have had issue with the fantastic insurance afforded the UAW membership. However, with the baby boomer's aging we have a bottleneck in the system, which time will cure. If all automakers have the same cost, none of them has an advantage. Overseas, this may be a problem, since the cost is spread out among all taxpayers. The demographics are as such, that when the baby boomer's are gone, the health costs will go down. So I would not want any change which would create havoc on the next generation and or hamper innovation.
-Rocky
Don't even go there !!! To believe that the UAW is the "root cause" to GM's failures is IMHO totally ridiculous !!! Roger Smith, would of made his wallet fatter with the savings and would of baught some other failing company and let it bleed GM dry. It was GM's management team in the 70's and 80's that severely damaged GM. You can't sell cars like the 1980's/90's Grand-Am's, Corsica's, etc, and not expect people to jump ship. GM's customer service is horrible and while they've made small gains they are still lacking severely in this area !!!
-Rocky
I think the lets blame it on the UAW, approach often preached in these forums is just crazy !!! :mad: How bout the JAW, in Japan ??? How does Toyota, make so much money using union labor to build its cars ????
Just re read what I just said for a momment and perhaps just maybe some of the hyperbole I hear might become just a faint whisper ???? :P
Ya'll take care !!!!!!!! :shades:
"The Rock"
I rest my case !!!!
"The Rock"
-Rocky
I'm surprised nobody hasn't blamed the UAW, for high gas prices !!! *Knock on Wood* :P
-Rocky
-Rocky
Regards,
OW
BMW builds 160,000 vehicles per year in the South Carolina plant. It is state of the art with 5400 employees. I have not heard any rumblings of labor discontent. I am sure they do not have the cradle to grave mentality of the German operations. I have to wonder if the MB, BMW & VW Union workers in Germany are screaming about all the plants that are moving to the USA where they get CHEAPER labor.
You should try Canada for a while. My dad took a job in Canada, and left after 6 months. It is not all it seems. They got lots of Unions and lots more taxes. I wonder if the guy working the line in the Mercedes plant in Germany can afford a new S550 or SL550? I'll bet more UAW workers owned Caddies than German MB or BMW workers own their top of the line cars.
Just as this country has been living above its means for the last 50 years, so have the UAW workers. Whether you are willing to accept it or not there are people willing to do the same work as those in the Big 3 plants for less money. And be happy to have the job. Main reason so many companies are re-locating to the South. CA has lost a lot of good companies to other states. Over taxing, high labor cost, high cost of land and tougher regulations.
The largest market for these vehicles, however, is the U.S., which is the rationale for locating the plant there: "Our philosophy is to build the vehicles closest to their largest market," explained Dr. Clemens Schmitz-Justenat, President of BMW Manufacturing Co. at the 2007 BMW X5 press introduction.
"The BIG question. Can companies Union or Non Union afford health care for their employees? Does the average McDonald's worker generate enough revenue to justify a $1000 per month in health care cost? Does the average UAW member generate enough to justify the high cost of health care? "
A very interesting question indeed. Now this is not against the Democratic party, against Hillary maybe but not the party . Now ,if I were to be in favor of universal health care would I choose the US where the boomers predominate or the fictional country that had the majority of strapping helathy young people who paid but did not collect with a minority of older people.The latter methinks.
Notice : I do not work for any HMO, but you know what ? I feel a little sorry for them. They want to provide good health care but with congress prostituting themselves for votes refusing to give them cost rebates despite the upward pressures. Rather like: perform good health care and do it for nothing but I'll be re-elected denying you re-imbursement because we know you are the bad guys.They do nickle and dime and are guilty of bad behavior but are pushed into it by our shameful congress who mandates, do a good job but don't get paid for it, while I suck up to my constituency. To tell you the truth I don't really worry about health care reform. It's one of those fun topics to discuss but with a nine trillion dollar national debt soon to be ten and a half trillion dollar budget deficit this year and next and with 10% of all tax revenues simply going to pay the interest on the national debt there is no way it can be afforded.
Beyond the Starbucks of Shanghai, the China of workers and peasants is a sea of unrest, roiled by thousands of strikes and protests that the regime routinely represses. Cognizant that they need to do something to quell the causes of unrest, some of China's rulers have entertained modest changes to the country's labor law. The legislation wouldn't allow workers to form independent trade unions or grant them the right to strike -- this is, after all, a communist regime. It would, however, require employers to provide employees, either individually or collectively, with written contracts. It would allow employees to change jobs within their industries or get jobs in related industries in other regions; employers have hitherto been able to thwart this by invoking statutes on proprietary information. It would also require that companies bargain with worker representatives over health and safety conditions.
It's not as if Chinese unions would use these laws to run roughshod over employers. Chinese unions are not, strictly speaking, unions at all. They remain controlled by the Communist Party. Their locals can be and frequently are headed by plant managers, whether the workers want them or not. And yet, these changes proved too radical for America's leading corporations.
As documented by Global Labor Strategies, a U.S.-based nonprofit organization headed by longtime labor activists, the American Chamber of Commerce in Shanghai and the U.S.-China Business Council embarked on a major campaign to kill these tepid reforms. Last April, one month after the legislation was first floated, the chamber sent a 42-page document to the Chinese government on behalf of its 1,300 members -- including General Electric, Microsoft, Dell, Ford and dozens of other household brand names -- objecting to these minimal increases in worker power. In its public comments on the proposed law, GE declared that it strongly preferred "consultation" with workers to "securing worker representative approval" on a range of its labor practices.
Based on a second draft of the law, completed in December, it looks like American businesses have substantially prevailed. Key provisions were weakened; if an employer elects not to issue written contracts, workers are guaranteed only the wages of similar employees -- with the employer apparently free to define who, exactly, is similar. Business is relieved: Facing "increased pressure to allow the establishment of unions in companies," Andreas Lauff, a Hong Kong-based corporate attorney, wrote in the Jan. 30 Financial Times, "comments from the business community appear to have had an impact." The new draft "scaled back protections for employees and sharply curtailed the role of unions."
Phew!
Admittedly, a few nettlesome issues remain. First, about one-fourth of the global labor force is in China. Opposing steps toward the formation of unions there suppresses the wages of so many workers that its effect is felt worldwide. Second, since authoritarian China remains an adversary of the United States and a backer of some genuinely dangerous authoritarian regimes, blocking even the most modest steps toward the development of a civil society and democratic rights there poses a threat to U.S. security interests. Third, since the Bush administration champions the spread of democracy globally, why hasn't it taken America's leading corporations to task for retarding democracy's growth in China? And fourth, since preserving our national security should require executives at companies such as GE to answer for their conduct, where's the House Un-American Activities Committee now that we really need it?
meyersonh@washpost.com
Posted in An Economy for All Unions
Unions appear in the Pew research as a natural counterweight to big business. Contrary to the opinions of those who contend that unions drive labor costs up and make U.S. industry uncompetitive, unions appear virtually blameless (6%) in the Pew survey of who’s to blame. Indeed, people see unions closer to the solution.
A Gallup survey of adults in August 2007 found 60% approval of labor unions and only 32% disapproval, and that Americans want unions to have more influence (35%), not less (28%). An older survey by Gallup in August 2005 revealed that “in labor disputes,” people’s sympathies tend to be “on the side of unions” (52%) not “on the side of the companies” (34%).
More recent polling of adults by Peter Hart for the AFL-CIO in December 2006 revealed that people want to join unions: 53% of non-union, non-managerial workers would vote to join a union if they could; 42% would not. People recognize collective action as the natural counterbalance to big business, and they support labor law reform that will result in more workers being able to bargain with their employers for better wages, benefits and working conditions.
Well their is a huge difference in features, size, fit and finish, between a six-figure flagship like the S-class and a $50-65K Cadillac's STS. I don't know of any UAW, employees that own "new" STS's and with the new two-tier wage structure at GM, Delphi, American Axel, etc it is virtually impossible to own one unless your spouse has a great job !!!
The only reason why we have such a cost of labor issue is because big business wants to make slaves out of the Chinese, Indians, Mexicans, and in those country's they have no enviromental regard and can pollute the ground, air, at will. If we get rid of NAFTA, and implement very high tariffs on all imported goods then perhaps a corporation paying a livable wage for blue-collar workers in this country can become a reality again. The fact that the Germans, are allowing BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagon, to build as much as they have outside of their country does really surprise me. The German, citizens will get fed up with it and revolt because they can't afford to lose jobs.
-Rocky
I'm going to disagree with you there. I can show you the GM enhanced housing areas where extraordinarily large homes were built by GM-related folk in new regions that were farmland overfilling the schools in those areas for a while and taxing the roads. This started about 2 decades ago. This came about the time the Moraine GM plant was built after the Frigidaire and lots of Delco parts factories closed in the area.
These folk had everything. They live large. I haven't talked to a real estate agent or someone who would know what the trend is for those folk now, but I suspect a lot of them transferred jobs as the jobs shrank here and moved. I don't know if they had to sell their summer home in Michigan or their boats and the kids' BMWs.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Maybe that's why the Germans are idolizing OBama at the rock star event. They hope he'll ruin this country , the jobs will disappear here, and jobs will return to Germany. :confuse: :sick:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I doubt that very seriously. You keep forgetting the latest polls on satisfaction with life. 85% of Americans are satisfied with their lives. They don't like a lot of things but they are doing well. I imagine Germany is just about the same. I doubt that Germans as a whole have the standard of living that we have here in the USA. German companies have had factories in the USA for a long time. I remember in the 1970s when VW built factories here to satisfy the demand for their cars. Now they are doing that again. That huge BMW factory in So Carolina was built in 1992 and is very prosperous. I know that Mercedes just started building the Sprinter in So Carolina. When BMW starts delivering their new X5 diesel this fall it will be built in South Carolina. I am seriously thinking of buying one. The Big 3 or the Japanese do not have anything to compete. Then I sell this gas guzzling Toyota.
I will be buying an American built vehicle. I imagine the people building it are just as happy or happier than the UAW people that are always complaining and lamenting how it was in the good old days. If a person is not happy with their job and their life. It is their responsibility to make a change. I did back in 1970 when I picked up and moved to Alaska. There is always going to be change. It is up to each individual to make the best of it. Unless you want a system that tells you what you are best suited for and you are stuck there for life. The more you expect of the government the more they take control of your life. I don't want to live like they do in China or the old Soviet Union or even Canada where there is no freedom of speech.