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Daimler did not know how to market an American car company that is geared for the average consumer. It is not the same as their high end products they are used to selling. "Dr. Z" Dieter Zetsche failed there.
I've heard that Daimler restricted Chrysler engineers in what they could do so their MB line would not be overshadowed by some less expensive American products. They certainly succeeded in doing that.
Chrysler wanted more exposure to worldwide markets and figured Daimler could provide that opportunity. Daimler wanted to get their hands on Chrysler's huge cash reserves. They managed to do that fairly well.
I got to laugh at the comment that my idea's are scary ??? :surprise: What's scary to me is that after 8 years of secrets from the Bush/Cheney/Rove administration you want to put a guy who will expand unfree trade ten-fold into office and open the borders like flood gates so Anheuser-Busch, can hire non-union illegal aliens, and illegal alien truck drivers can distribute the finished goods for Mrs. McCain, all around the country. Now that's what scares me !!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
P.S. I just checked out the new TL first drive video and came away impressed. I'm not sure if I can get use to that snout but the rest of the car is just plain awesome and filled with "gadgetology" !!!! Perhaps someday their will be UAW-made Acura TL's :P
Regards,
OW
I don't know how far $15-$17 goes in Michigan, but it'll only get you just over a subsistence living here in Philly. It'll get you a one-bedroom apartment in a marginal Lower NE neighborhood and a hooptie with minimum insurance. Entertainment will be cheap beer at the corner tavern and the antics of the drunks in said tavern. Forget about shopping at any place more upscale than Target.
Family is west of Flint and I live in a suburb of Detroit.
The majority of UAW-GM making $27/hour is still there in the plants that are open. GM is not Delphi. They have been going bankrupt for years. GM just got the agreement last year and it is going into effect now. The guys are leaving the plants now that took the buy outs but again most did not leave till now.
Help me out with this...if Daimler paid $40 billion (is that right???) for Chrysler, how could the "huge cash reserves" be of any help unless they bought reserves over the sale price???...did any US automaker ever have THAT much in cash reserves???
Then they sold them to Cerberus for $7 billion...I wonder how MB came out the winner on this...please educate me...I must be missing some facts...
Tuesday means Mazda chat night! Mazda ownership is not a requirement!
The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight to meet and greet with your fellow CarSpace members!
See you there!
What is scary is people like you believe Obama, a product of Chicago politics. Probably the most corrupt city in the USA over the last 75 years. McCain I have some idea of what to expect. Obama I have none. He talks like a miniature Carter. You are too young to remember how that man devastated this country financially as well as emotionally. Not everyone is stuck in a poor job with little future like the UAW workers. To suggest that GW Bush has had anything to do with the downfall of the UAW and the Big 3 is laughable. NAFTA was laid out long ago and will continue to evolve.
Our best bet is to learn to live with it. Congress would have to change it. There was NO legislation in the 110th addressing ANY issue with NAFTA that I could find. Obama could have offered legislation to rescind NAFTA as a Senator. What makes you think he would do anything as President?
You seem to be against the War in Iraq. How many UAW jobs do you think are directly tied to supplying that war effort? I would bet the Big 3 have some pretty lucrative contracts tied to the war effort.
My guess is after 4 years of Obama Michigan and the UAW will be in worse shape.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Gagrice,
I respect your point of view !!! I don't believe Obama, is going to fix everything wrong with this country but I however believe because he is from Chicago, he will have a greater understanding of how working class people live and work. What experience does Senator McCain, have besides being a P.O.W. one of the few things I respect about him ??? The fact that we already know what to expect from McCain, well scares the hell out of me !!! I'm not blaming Bush, for the big 3's collapse or the UAW's decline in membership but the guy did not take action to address these issues. If anything the pseudo-capitalist, Bush Jr. made the problems worst by allowing his big oil buddies to gouge us at the pumps for 8 years which has lead to the big 3 bleeding red ink. :mad:
Our best bet is to learn to live with it. Congress would have to change it. There was NO legislation in the 110th addressing ANY issue with NAFTA that I could find. Obama could have offered legislation to rescind NAFTA as a Senator. What makes you think he would do anything as President?
There is to many pseudo-capitalist in both party's to change it and you know damn well Bush, would veto it thus what is the point of wasting time by drawing up such a bill ???
You seem to be against the War in Iraq. How many UAW jobs do you think are directly tied to supplying that war effort? I would bet the Big 3 have some pretty lucrative contracts tied to the war effort.
Yeah, gagrice I don't believe in starting wars over oil a out-dated fuel source !!! I was never against the war in Afghanistan, and originally supported the war in Iraq, until the truth finally started to come out. You ask how many UAW do I think are tied to this war ??? Well not very many !!! A couple of thousand maybe !!! I'll ask you this gagrice, how many union jobs have been lost since the war kicked off ????
My guess is after 4 years of Obama Michigan and the UAW will be in worse shape
Well I've lived most of my life under republican rule and the best economic times I've seen which wasn't perfect by any means but it was under some democrat from Arkansas !
-Rocky
I don't work for GM or Delphi - I'm a Chrysler employee in the St. Louis area. I honestly thought the other day that you meant they earn MORE than $27/hr.
Anyway, the production workers where I'm at earn around $29/hr in addition to any COLA (cost of living allowance) and shift premium. I wouldn't think there would be that much of a difference in GM wages.
At any rate, I will not be with the UAW much longer. I received a call from Boeing earlier today and I have until August 18 to accept or reject their offer of a job, doing approximately the same work I had been doing and a starting salary close to what I'd been at after nearly 25 years with Chrysler.
Hmm...should I take a layoff in October and unemployment checks with an uncertain future or a steady job with great benefits and promising future - a tough decision.
I might add that no import car will ever be found in my garage, no matter where I work. The UAW helped me get to where I am today.
You're Union, You're Proven. Hang tough, and God speed and good luck with the new job. Nobody will ever convince me that we union guys can't do things better, faster, and safer than the rest.
It was all done locally by local hiring people. I'm hoping there are not a lot of job transfers to other areas of the country on a regular basis. That's the main reason I was seeking employment in the same area I've lived in all my life.
I wish I had a crystal ball and could look 5 years into the future to see what happened with Chrysler, the UAW, etc. It's tough to walk away from a job I've had for nearly 25 years but sometimes the tough decisions are the best ones to make.
I'm going to try and delay my actual termination until the company comes out with a buyout or early retirement offer, probably in September from what I've heard. I can do that by using my 5 weeks of vacation and maybe a personal leave of absence if I had to extend it.
So Carter wasn't all that bad and you can thank him for not allowing inflation to erode the purchasing power of your social security benefits.
Obama seems like a well educated man, that if given a chance, he might just upset the myth that you envision. He has already been the underdog of the party and surprised everyone. I have never seen the GOP, Rush, and FOX NEWS (aka FAUX NEWS) as scared of anyone as of Obama. The night he won the democratic nomination, I though they were about to cry. This same right wing group were pushing hard for Ms Clinton is all but pathetic.
Let the people vote their mind. Just tell me what Bush has done for you and or the country?
The real story about why he came to this much notariety and who supported his rise and popularity in the media is yet to be told. This will be more of media holding back information that's negative than happened during the Clinton campaign with all the bimbo eruptions. The Chicago politics is not a good background to have on your resume. Too many manipulated elections. Hillary Rodman is another example from there. Bill went there during his campaign to seek support from the party strength there.
There's another Edwards story there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually, Nixon resigned before he had a chance to be impeached. There have only been two U.S. presidents who have been impeached. Both were Democrats, although I don't think either of them belonged to the UAW.
Life was a mess when Carter left but it was a mess when he came in, too. No one get nostalgic for the 70s...
In the news (as Tedebear knows I guess), lUAW members plan rally at Chrysler's headquarters.
"More than 350 workers from Chrysler's South Assembly Plant will travel to the Detroit area to show dissatisfaction with the automaker's decision to idle the Fenton minivan plant and trim to one from two the number of shifts at the adjacent pickup plant, said Joe Shields, president of UAW Local 110."
And there's this - Chrysler Asks UAW for Four 10-Hour Days.
Well there you have it. The 1990s were very poor times for us in the oil business, compared to the 2001-2006 years until I retired. One persons loss is another's gain. Just remember the unemployment was higher in the 90s. Only a few of the dot.com bunch were making the big bucks. The Big 3 was getting ahead due to the sale of trucks and SUVs. Most Liberals do not consider that a good thing. The Dems would outlaw SUVs if they thought they could pull it off. That was the money makers for the UAW.
It doesn't matter who is the POTUS in the next 4 years. The market will take care of the UAW and the auto industry. Good products sell. We need passion in the steel again. Period.
Oh, and a system that is focused only on product and has no greed involved. Simple but hard to do.
Regards,
OW
The extra credit could easily give me a B+ for the course...
I suspect there are a good deal of parts on the Big 3 vehicles that are "foreign" made, and installed by UAW workers.
Last fall I wanted a "Levi" brand denim jacket. But at the local stores, including Kohls and a "High End" store, they were in the $60 to $70 range. A bit high for my blood.
Ended up with a "Wrangler" brand from Wal*Mart. Got it home and started removing the tags and discovered it was made in Bangladesh.
Near winters end a local store had marked down their Genuine "Levi" jackets from $68 to $20. Snatched that puppy up and was a proud camper. Got home and discovered the "We were the first, We are the American Tradition" (according to the tag) Genuine Levi jacket was made in China. Yep, right there on the inside sewn in label. Can't tell any differences in the two brands except for the tiny red tag on the Levi pocket.
Three days ago "Car Quest" ordered, for me, a pair of 350 Chevy OEM type exhaust manifolds for my 78 Chevy Van. I got them and they fit perfectly. "Made in China".
Doesn't seem to much matter where we shop, an overwhelming amount of the stuff we purchase is made outside the USA..
I suspect there are a good deal of parts on the Big 3 vehicles that are "foreign" made, and installed by UAW workers. I wonder if that employee really cares, or refuses to install them for that reason.
Now that Big 3 and UAW are working to get wages and hopefully CEO and management salaries to a more realistic level, maybe they can improve parts quality. The employees just might be proud to have a job and work diligently to keep it.
I truly miss having a new Chevy or Pontiac in my garage, as I did from 1960-1987. However, I didn't abandon them, they abandoned me.
Kip
When our contract changed in 2003 and I went to a new company, they did the same thing, combining vacation and sick pay and just calling it "leave". I actually prefer it this way. I remember when the old company lost the contract, I had about 240 hours of vacation saved up, and about 57 hours of sick pay. The vacation pay got paid out to me when the contract was up, but the sick pay was lost. I forget what my accrual rate was back then, though. Probably 3 weeks of vacation and 1 week of sick. I think my seniority got bumped up to a new level right as we switched contracts, so with the new company, I ended up getting 5 weeks per year of leave.
Well, we're about to lose the contract again. They let us accrue twice our annual rate, so I can get up to 400 hours total. I'm near that now. So to keep me from hitting my 400 hours and not getting anymore, they're letting me just cash it out, a few hours at a time, and add to my paycheck. So in a sense I'm working 10 days per pay period but getting paid for 11 or 12. It all comes out in the wash anyway, since when our contract finally expires in October, they'd have to pay all that out to me, anyway.
Back when we used to have sick days, people would abuse them. But since it's all just considered leave now, in my company at least, it seems like people are less likely to abuse it.
Now the new company I'm about to go with separates the two, again. I'll get 22.5 days of vacation (180 hours) and 5 days (40 hours) of sick pay. One thing that's cool though, is they'll let you take sick leave for doctor's visits and such...you don't actually have to be SICK! And they'll let you take partial days, which is nice.
I bet they don't last as long nowadays, either. I bought a Levi's denim jacket back in 11th grade. Must have been late 1986 or early 1987. I remember even back then it was 50 bucks. That sucker lasted, though. Eventually the elbows wore out, and I cut the sleeves off and made a vest out of it. I think I still have it packed away somewhere. It was getting a bit frayed around the collar too, but that just gave it a "vintage" look.
tedebear, so the Boeing job is local there in St.Louis?
The UAW members ought to be thinking re-training round about now if they haven't already been thinkin' along those lines.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I thought that Bush was responsible for those baked beans that the Irish setter is always trying to leak the recipe to.
Ronald Reagan, he was an actor. I don't think he invented anything. If he did, he probably wouldn't remember... :shades:
We always cut the lawyers extra slack. But you can glance at the discussion title now and then as a memory trick to remind yourself that you are in the CarSpace UAW topic, and not, say, chatting up the judge's clerk or picking up your starched ties. :shades:
Take the BOEING job!!! McDD / BOEING's general working conditions cannot be beat. Boeing has the most amazing education support system, - get your bachelor's degree, all costs paid 100%, AND receive 100 shares of Boeing stock!!!
I might add that no import car will ever be found in my garage, no matter where I work. The UAW helped me get to where I am today.
You will have to drive some rather exclusive rig, 'cause all that mundane transportation is bolted together in Mexico or elsewhere. My '91 lincoln conti was slapped together in Mexico... :-(
liars, I mean, lawyers, extra slack as we just don't have what it takes to survive...and neither my shirts nor my ties are starched...altho I may be called a stuffed shirt every now and then...kipk: I think I remember reading a few years ago that Levi Strauss finally closed their last remaining USA plant and moved it all to China or Mexico...to bring Levi on topic, I must question that age old mantra, was it worth paying Americans, say, $20-30 per hour and still sell the jacket for $80...it seems to be a question that always pops up, that the wages of the workers sent the product overseas, as I do not think the price of cotton would have done it...and the fact that Levi did it within, I believe, in the last 5 years means that they TRIED to do it with American labor, but I am assuming that the cost was simply too high, or they could not sell the jacket for $125 to recoup the cost of USA labor...which is why, I think, we do not have a textile industry here, as the cost of the US made clothing would be more than the average American will pay, so they must meet their market and drop labor costs, or at least that is what I am thinking...
Every one talks about the WORKER making a reasonable wage, but nobody looks at the demand side to see if the public will pay the price for the US workers wages...if the $80 jacket becomes $125, then fewer jackets will be sold and the industry will shrink simply due to lower demand at the higher price...
andre: my wife used to work at a bank where they called it all PTO, Paid Time Off...you could bak only so many days a year, not all of them, and they didn't care whether you called it sick time, vacation time, bereavment time, personal days or whatever...say you got 21 days a year, and you could bank 10...that was it and it seemed reasonable at the time...
Then you bring up Chicago as the only place that election fraud occurs. Florida comes to mind, Texas and the Duke of Duval county. You can't be thinking that Nixon and his dirty tricks was robbed in Chicago?
Might I remind you that Obama is a professor at the University of Chicago (Americas number one MBA school with countless Nobel prize professors) and is light years ahead of the status quo and or anything the entire GOP has to offer in intellect.
I thought that this was the worse scandal (Watergate) in history. However, Bush/Cheney/Rove have managed to change my mind. In any case how do you think Clinton/Monica will be explained to children in history lessons?
Also the UAW has a wonderful summer family scholarship program for the membership. Great vacation spot, good food, awesome rooms, and the greatest people. Plus the UAW picks-up the tab. During the rest of the year they educate different groups with in the UAW. Such as the editors/union newspaper folks this week. Chaplin's of locals another week and so forth.
Point I was trying to make is that whether shopping Wal*Mart or elsewhere the chances, of buying American made goods, are getting slimmer. :sick:
Kip
If we continue on this path, the folks in China will continue to buy autos (they were number two last year in buying autos, just under America) and bid the price up at the pump. Price is the rationing mechanism for gas at the pump. So therefore we will lose that great savings at Walmart, at the gas pump. Now this is how supply and demand work.
They all left earlier this evening, headed for Detroit, in a big bus caravan. I had to work but I'm not sure I'd want to be sitting on one of those busses for the 1,100+ mile 24-hour RT, especially knowing how wound up many of those people will be. I'm sure there will be plenty of beer and cigarette smoke available.
I was surprised by the high turnout of people, although I doubt it will make any difference in Cerberus' decision to idle the minivan plant in October or cut a shift from the neighboring truck plant next month. I expect the truck plant will be idled next year since they say the company cannot make money by operating a plant with just one shift.
Anyway, I received my Boeing job proposal packet today via FedEx overnight delivery. I have until Monday to tell them yes or no. I think I already know what I will say.
Slowly, surely every industry will have the same issue. And not only is it the wages but also the legacy cost. If a company (Levis/GM/Boeing/whatever) has been around 50 years then they will have lots of retirees with pensions and health care. A new guy shows up on the block and they have none of that legacy cost. The new company pays less/fewer benis and the established company has to do something to compete. Levis hung on, as did GM, but they both finally had to start going overseas to compete.
5 years ago Bo Andersson told the GM suppliers(primarily US) they had to start providing parts from overseas to compete because they were going to world wide purchasing and vehicle development. Before that almost all parts were US built.
i.e. the Epsilon II's will be sourced from Germany and will be looking for suppliers who will supply wherever the Epsilons (US, Germany, China, etc.) are built. So there were no local (US) suppliers that had a leg up because they were local to the purchasing dept or US plants. Parts would have to be supplied from whoever had the total lowest cost (part, shipping, quality, etc.).
So a lot of suppliers to GM now have plants overseas (Delphi, etc). Of course these sources to GM are pretty much the same as waht all the other OEMS use.
Senator Obama is good when he stays on script. Not so much when he has to deviate from the script. Senator McCain is the opposite. On script, he is boring. Get him off script, and he is much better and more passionate. Why do you think Senator McCain is so eager for those town hall meetings, and Senator Obama is resisting them?
dallasdude: Might I remind you that Obama is a professor at the University of Chicago (Americas number one MBA school with countless Nobel prize professors) and is light years ahead of the status quo and or anything the entire GOP has to offer in intellect.
In the real world, degrees count for less than real-world experience. So far, I'm seeing an old-school Chicago politician who is attracting attention because of his racial background, relative youth and good looks. Get past the surface and look at his platform, and he's about as "new" and exciting as a 2008 Impala is compared to a 2000 Impala. Unless you consider higher taxes, more social programs and bailouts for companies that customers are rejecting with their hard-earned dollars to be "new" and exciting. Considering our history over the last 50 or so years, I sure don't.
They use those programs because the eligibility requirements have been steadily adjusted UPWARDS over the years. I see this all the time in my job. Recently, Governor Rendell attempted to introduce a program for low-cost health insurance that would have been available to families making almost $80,000 per year. Even in the Philadelphia region (the state's highest cost region), that is still a good income for a family of four.
Nixon was Dwight Eisenhower's vice president. His daughter, Julie, married Dwight Eisenhower's grandson. They are still married today, and live in suburban Philadelphia, if I recall correctly.
I recall that Dwight Eisenhower did endorse him for president in 1960, although Eisenhower really wasn't all that fond of him.
Any UAW interest or are we done in here (again)?
I'm always on topic so I'll get it going again.
The local Moraine truck plant likely to be closing has stalled on contract talks with workers. They want rights to transfer to UAW plants as the truck plant slows down over the next two years
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What is your opinion on the Swedish system of government? We have very strong UAW members here that think the Swedish system is superior to the USA.
My daughter worked part time at WalMart for a year. She did not get a penny from welfare. No Food Stamps or free health care. Where do I sign up? I forgot, you have to be an illegal alien. Maybe if you have a link on that $2000 claim for each WalMart employee it would help.
How many UAW workers that have been laid off are collecting welfare instead of getting a different job or going back to school? This whole bit of whining about the UAW losing jobs is getting old. Being part of the Telephone industry, we went through this a long time ago. Early buyouts as technology gobbled up the jobs. Friends I worked with in the 1960s were without a job and were not offered the golden parachute offered 1000s of UAW workers.
Whether technology eliminates your job or the Chinese or the Bulgarians. It is each persons responsibility to get out and hustle up a new job if you cannot afford to retire. All this talk of socialism makes me sick to my stomach. What a bunch of losers the socialists are. They want big brother to tell them when to use the restroom.
And how much of this is because of misplaced priorities on the part of the wage earners? Which is more important - tatoos, fancy wheels, nail jobs and cell phones, or the basics? Hint - if you can get the basics for free, or at greatly reduced prices, you'll take advantage of that opportunity in order to purchase products that are hardly necessities. My wife and I see this ALL the time.
My wife was a social worker, and now teaches school in a poor, urban school district. Her students are special education students, which means she has to work closely with the families, and some of her aides are former welfare recipients.
Let's just say that, when it comes to explaining why the poor are poor, she isn't blaming George Bush, Republicans, rich people, Walmart or the Chinese. But then she has the benefit of firsthand experience in dealing with the working poor (and the non-working poor).
Also note that retail has been largely the province of part-time workers long before Walmart became a retail powerhouse on the national scene.
dallasdude: I'm very doubtful that if everyone had UAW wages/benefits that they would burden the social services.
And Walmart would be competing with Bloomingdales and Neiman-Marcus, because of the prices it would have to charge to make any money. Do you realize how razor-thin the margins are in retail? Walmart makes money based on the VOLUME of goods sold, not on a large profit on the sale of each good. Given that GM can't afford UAW-level benefits, one wonders how a low-margin business such as Walmart is supposed to be able to.
dallasdude: So if the taxpayer pays for these services via the property taxes or if Walmart provides these services and the cost is reflective/factored in the goods purchased there is the argument here. $2000 of social services per employee has not ever been refuted by anyone as the best estimate of the cost the taxpayer is burdened by each Walmart employee. So it appears that products priced at Walmart are cheaper than they really are. Even if you rent property taxes are factored into the rent.
If you are really concerned about this, then you will make the purchase of health insurance mandatory for employees, and you will abolish mandates that drive up the cost of insurance policies. Mandating the coverage of certain disease and conditions in EVERY policy drives up the cost of premiums, and increases the ranks of the uninsured.
Here in Pennsylvania, we recently mandated coverage of autism for ALL insurance policies. Great - except that the biggest group of uninsured is healthy 20-somethings, and what they really need is stipped-down policies that cover catastrophic problems (cancer, etc.). But now every policy they purchase covers autism, which means they are paying for this (and it isn't cheap), even if they are single and childless.
Also, given that the UAW is pushing for nationalized health care, you still haven't satisfactorily answered my question as to how this will magically eliminate those costs for taxpayers, given that said taxpayers will still be paying for other people's care under a nationalized plan.
dallasdude: The products purchased there may be the results of exploited children. However the products (fruits of child labor) are sold by Americans to Americans and the ill gotten gains/profits go to the share holders.
You're mixing apples and oranges. The origin of various products has no bearing on whether Walmart employees have health insurance. And note that all Americans are free to purchase Walmart stock - including employees. Also note that store managers can make decent money at Walmart.
And, to head off the next inevitable red herring, since this is an automobile website - neither the Chinese nor Walmart make vehicles that are currently available for sale in the U.S. All reputable experts agree that the Chinese will not be ready for primetime (meaning, entry into the U.S. market) for another 10-15 years.
They are therefore not responsible for the decline and possible fall of GM, Ford and Chrysler, even though these two entities regularly pop up in any discussion centered on the woes of the domestic auto industry.
GM, Ford and Chrysler, in partnership with the UAW, brought their problems on themselves. Although, if you are really worried about the use of people's tax dollars, then I'm sure you will be against any federal bailout of the Big Three and the UAW, as people who have bought Toyotas, Hondas, BMWs, etc., have already voted on how much money they want to give the domestics and the UAW. Which looks like a big, fat "0" to me.