Well, my father who was a factory worker and a member of the Teamsters union encouraged me to go to college and I did. Still, I don't look down on him as a lowly blue collar type but feel proud that he made the sacrifices he did so I could later enjoy a decent lifestyle.
Well, I've been pretty lucky. All of my GM cars seem to have been be built by UAW master craftsmen who abstained from alcohol and drugs. Maybe the Buick and Cadillac factories had better quality workers?
Well, my father who was a factory worker and a member of the Teamsters union encouraged me to go to college and I did. Still, I don't look down on him as a lowly blue collar type but feel proud that he made the sacrifices he did so I could later enjoy a decent lifestyle.
Lemko, I agree with you 100%. My wife and I along with our siblings wouldn't be where we are today without the sacrifices and hard work of our parents. A lot of that support was provided by union jobs and wages.
I do vaguely recall an anecdote along those lines, but I think the main factor was that the lines for the higher-end cars ran slower and had more QC checks back in the day. One factor in GM's decline that almost no one seems to pay attention to was the advent of the GM Assembly Division, which is only mentioned in connection with a notable drop in build quality and labor relations when it's mentioned at all.
First, you type this: I understand some of ya'll didn't grow-up and see the real world until you were almost adults and lived a sheltered life and was oblivious to the world around you because of state geography.
Then you type this: Hell some of ya'll in the south I'm sure called your restroom a wooden shack outside until 20 or 30 years ago !! I'm literally being serious !!!
The South has been on the upswing economically since at least the mid 1960s. And they had the widespread use of indoor plumbing long before that.
Were there poor people down South? Sure. But then, there were poor people in New York City, Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit and other places north of the Mason-Dixon line.
You're not doing a good job of convincing us that you were familiar with the "real world" and lived an "unsheltered life" when you type things like that.
If anyone was "sheltered" 20-30 years ago, it was the blue-collar and white-collar workers of the Big Three. They had no clue as to why the Japanese were making inroads into the American market. Judging by some of the products they are offering the public, and some of the public statements by union members and executives, I think there is still a fair amount of denial there...
I recall being in a GM captive factory long ago which was producing plastic housings for lights. The ones that were not perfect went to other car factories; the perfect ones went to Cadillac. The appearance had nothing to do with function.
please...I came from an automotive family and I grew up fixing starters and alternators, cutting drums and discs, overhauling disc calipers...I grew up blue collar and have the utmost respect for that...I came from that and I am that...
Unions, however, are another story...I am NOT blue collar bashing, it is unions that I think are ridiculous...also, commenting on the job does NOT criticize the worker doing an honest day's work...but one can simply state that floor sweeping is not worth $25/hour w/o criticizing the person who does it...but it is the skill level of the job on which I comment...
Also, rocky, please do not forget that I grew up outside of New York City, so don't throw me in with those who had outhouses...I am sure I knew what urban life was like long before you were a gleam in your father's eye...:):):):):)
And, being union, you only saw the union side of anything, you would never have been exposed to the capitalist/business side of anything, since all you knew growing up was, "what are we striking for this time, and who comes first in the pattern bargaining?"
Has your niece left Michigan yet...have you????????????????????? :P
You're not doing a good job of convincing us that you were familiar with the "real world" and lived an "unsheltered life" when you type things like that.
I guess growing up in a UAW family during the 80's in Michigan means being told your entitled to lifetime employment, the world revolves around Detroit, and everyone south of Michigan is ignorant and still crapping in an outhouse.
imidazol97: Honda is the magic act of seldom showing discounts. They give the discounts to the dealer (dealer incentives), who can then decide if and how much they pass on to the consumer. That's unlike the past typical practice of announcing the discount amounts by many brands to encourage buying.
Sites such as this still track that type of discount, and even then Honda and Toyota still offer lower discounts than the domestics. There is no "magic" involved. These discounts are tracked by Edmunds.com, and anyone can determine how much cash each respective auto maker needs to put on the hood to move the metal.
This information is about as secret and discrete as Britney-sans-underpants.
imidazol97: I recall in 2003 and around then when the Honda and Toyota folks on Edmunds would bristle at the idea that they had to give rebates because their cars were so in demand that they didn't need rebates. It wasn't long after that the rebates started appearing!!!
Honda does not offer direct-to-customer rebates. Toyota does. This is hardly a secret, however, given that I've seen television advertisements for Toyota prominently mentioning available rebates on various models.
Maybe you have a different definition of what constitutes a "secret" practice, but around here, companies that want to keep a practice secret don't advertise it on television.
imidazol97: But the Honda folks tended to have "dealer incentives" so that the unknowing consumer could be plucked for the cash when the dealer didn't actually discount whatever the incentive amount to them was along with, in this area, horrific addons and packs to pluck the consumer feathers further.
That's what happens when customers don't shop around. And the idea that GM dealers, for example, don't do the same thing to uninformed customers is naive, at best.
imidazol97: The use of "hidden incentives" furthered the consumer illusion that they never were discounted.
You need to get out more and actually talk to a Honda owner. I know of no one who has bought a Honda at full sticker. They expect discounts just like everyone else. The market is too competitive these days - unless you are buying a Prius.
imidazol97: It's a parallel to the hidden repairs done in the 80s and 90s so that consumers didn't know there were actually, gasp, flaws that got repaired on the foreign car just like on American branded cars.
Yes. All an auto company needs to do is replace defective parts on the sly. Customers will never know, and mechanics will never spill the beans.
I guess the Big Three have wasted millions of dollars to reform their production processes, supplier chains and vehicle development processes. All they really needed to do was have their dealers replace defective parts on the sly. The quality gap never existed. Those dummies in Detroit got fooled again by listening to the pinko-commie-tree hugger brigade who read Consumer Reports.
Remeber that discussions like this one are certainly welcome material at our weekly chats! Not that we could keep a sustained chat going on the UAW or anything. :P
Tuesday means Mazda chat night! Mazda ownership is not a requirement! Just bring yourself and your love of cars and the desire to discuss anything and everything automotive and you're good to go!
The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight to meet and greet with your fellow CarSpace members! See you there!
I guess the Big Three have wasted millions of dollars to reform their production processes, supplier chains and vehicle development processes. All they really needed to do was have their dealers replace defective parts on the sly. The quality gap never existed. Those dummies in Detroit got fooled again by listening to the pinko-commie-tree hugger brigade who read Consumer Reports.
I received this from a student of mine a year or so ago:
A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River . Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile. The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager. They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens and a certificate of completion for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower (a reduction in workforce) for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was "out-sourced" to India .
Sadly, the End.
However, sad, but oh so true!
Here's something else to think about:
Ford has spent the last thirty years moving its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages. Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the U.S.
The last quarter's results:
Toyota made 4 billion in profit while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses. Ford folks are still scratching their heads.
IF THIS WASN'T SO SAD IT MIGHT BE FUNNY!
The CEOs of these companies continue in their positions and get bonuses!!! A bonus for running the company into the ground? One might think you would lose your job for that!
If you read "Who ate my Cheese?" you would have scurried long ago...
Although the University of Michigan’s American Customer Satisfaction Index doesn’t have the clout of other industry surveys – such as J.D. Power and Consumer Reports – it does give an indication of a customer’s satisfaction with a six month to three year old vehicle. The domestic automakers probably should start taking note of U of M’s study as all three performed poorly in this year’s survey.
The Big Three had actually been gaining on their Japanese and German rivals over the past few years, but the Michigan automakers took a big hit this year. “The gap is extending. Detroit is falling,” Claes Fornell, the professor in charge of the study, told The Detroit News. “It’s all foreign at the top and all American at the bottom.”
Fornell says that the decrease in satisfaction with the domestic brands is directly related to their truck and SUV-heavy lineups. Consumers have become fed up with high gas prices and therefore aren’t as satisfied with their large vehicles.
General Motors’ Chevrolet brand fell the furthest in the study – slipping by 3.7 percent – and actually ranked just behind Kia. The only brands ranked below Chevy in the survey were Chrysler’s Dodge and Jeep brands.
Despite the poor performance by Chevy, GM’s Buick was the highest ranked domestic brand, and the company’s Saturn division posted the biggest improvements. Coincidently, Saturn is GM’s most fuel-efficient brand.
Ford’s Lincoln and Mercury brands fared well – ranking above the industry average – but the Ford brand actually came in below the average.
Lexus, BMW, Toyota and Honda took the top four spots, respectively.
Well, my father who was a factory worker and a member of the Teamsters union
Both my mother and father worked Union jobs. They both became unhappy with the work ethic. Especially my Dad that was in the Carpenter's Union as a Foreman most of the time. He got tired of guys coming to work late or without their tools. Guys sent out from the hall as journeymen that could not layout a wall from the plans. It goes on and on. He finally withdrew and went to work as a super for a non-Union contractor IN MICHIGAN. He spent his last 20 years at Capp Homes traveling the USA fixing problems done by poor workmen. So yes both Union and Non-Union have poor workers. I think it is the Union's place to weed out the trash.
My father never got far enough ahead to send me to college. I was paying room and board from the time I started Jr High School. My dad always worked hard raising my 4 younger brother and sisters. He sometimes worked two jobs so my mom could stay home with the kids. I was fortunate and made the right job decisions and got good training. I was also willing to go where the good jobs were at. Being a retired Blue Collar worker I never felt that I was looked down upon by the college crowd.
If anyone was "sheltered" 20-30 years ago, it was the blue-collar and white-collar workers of the Big Three.
When did the Big 3 start building vehicles in Canada and Mexico? My first GM PU came from Canada in 1988. You would think the UAW would have asked themselves why are the Big 3 moving to other countries long before now. Is it something we are not doing right? If the company I was working for was bleeding red ink, I would either work harder to try and stop the bleeding or jump ship if it was sinking. The UAW's response cut em deeper with a strike. The UAW does not have the sympathy of the American public.
What!!!! You were on the internet in the 80's. Hmm, you must have been hanging out with your buddy Al Gore for that to be possible as I remember being in a college computer lab in '91 using Mosaic and their were about 100 internet sites to visit.
I wasn't referring to the internet as a reference for the "information age" because yeah their wasn't many sites. I was referring to how fast worldwide news was delivered by CNN and the local stations. I remember watching on TV my grandmother, being interviewed several times when I was child.
All of this enlightenment at an early age, and no one saw the writing on the wall!!!! It has been obvious for 30 years that the domestic auto industry has been in trouble. I grew up near the steel mills in NW Indiana. My grandpa worked as a union steel worker for 43 years, my FIL worked as an iron worker for 33 years until LTV went belly up and he elected to retire. My grandpa and parents as did my wife's parents always talked to us about getting an education and getting the hell out of town for a better life. They sacrificed to provide us and our siblings an opportunity for higher education for the possibility for a better life. They didn't fill my head with the BS that "the mill and union is good enough for me, it will be good enough for you".
Sounds like your's wanted you to stick around and feel the pain.
diesel, what amazes me is you talk like your associated with the ubber wealthy but are in denial that you are middle class folk and from what it sounds like were raised as such. I get the feeling you think because you and your children went to college and obtained a degree you are "worth" more to society than the UAW, worker. I forget the exact percentage of people that obtain college degrees don't even practice in their so-called area of expertise. I personally prefer the "European Way" of education where you train during high school after being evaluated on what field you will go into. It's more cost effective and efficient as time and money isn't blown on wasteful classes. I believe our education system will become more efficient by requring less classes to obtain a degree but I highly doubt the cost of such classes will ever come down !!!!
FYI- My parents encouraged me to take up going to college. I did go to Lake Michigan College, for a half-semster. As you might recall last year....I more/less listed all the classes and training I've obtained since high school which is likely a lot more total education than most people posting on here have !!!
You're not doing a good job of convincing us that you were familiar with the "real world" and lived an "unsheltered life" when you type things like that.
Well that could be said about way to many on here. All these drug and alcohol related comments about UAW, workers well doesn't make ya'll credible with me. i.e. (see an above post referring to Strohs beer and assembly)
-Rocky
P.S. I guess that depends on which area of the south you are talking about !!!
Well Mr. Marsha7, I yes indeed had mainly union members for family members but did have a few non-union relatives on both sides of the family and many that worked for both at different times in their life and the conclusion for all is pretty much the same. I have worked both union and non-union jobs and likely my next job will be non-union but the treatment and respect for union workers, by a company is by far and away better union than non-union !!!
Has your niece (*cousin) left Michigan yet...have you?????????????????????
Why leave ??? Go where ??? Georgia ??? Kia ??? They pay what $10 or 11 bucks an hour for sweat shop labor ??? The price of homes isn't exactly cheap in Georgia, so what advantage would I have living there vs. here ??? :confuse:
Ford has spent the last thirty years moving its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages. Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the U.S.
The last quarter's results: Toyota made 4 billion in profit while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses. Ford folks are still scratching their heads.
Well it is not rocket science my friend. And it is not just Toyota building plants in the USA. The US does have people that are willing to work and not feel that they are entitled to make as much as the owners of the company. As a result, BMW, MB, Nissan, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda and now VW all have plants here or are being built here. NOT ONE has gone to a state controlled by the UAW. If the UAW supplied an excellent workforce they would have been considered. It is the attitude of some people that the workforce provided by the UAW is worth a heck of a lot more than anywhere else. That is the problem, and is not even close to reality. All of these companies are smart enough to know that they can take the average HS graduate and train them to build a car the way they like it. In fact it is probably easier to take an untrained young person that is willing to work and train them. The imports probably came here to get away from the repressive labor Unions in Japan, Korea and Germany.
Trust me, if the Big 3 could build plants in the states that the imports are building they would do it. No way they can be loosed from the UAW noose and you see the result. It is easier to just build in another country. My experience is 2 GM PU trucks from Canada and a Chevy PU and Suburban from Mexico were better put together than my GMC PU built by the UAW in Indiana. I will not blame it all on the UAW. They do have to share some of the blame.
diesel, what amazes me is you talk like your associated with the ubber wealthy but are in denial that you are middle class folk and from what it sounds like were raised as such. I get the feeling you think because you and your children went to college and obtained a degree you are "worth" more to society than the UAW,
My children went to college? Yikes!!!! How old do you think I am. I guess it would be biologically possible for me to have a kid in college, but they are still in elementary school.
My wife and I were raised middle class. I feel we're middle class, but our household income is at a level that we didn't qualify for child tax credits. Regardless we certainly aren't at you put it, uber wealthy.
I don't know what this has to do with my thoughts on the UAW. My point is that I didn't graduate from high school expecting/relying on a good job at the mill. Some of my friends went that route and are doing fine. Ironically they've also got a skill/degree that most likely will provide them with a job if the mills get in trouble again. My point was simply, the issues with the big 3 have been going on for a long time.
I wasn't referring to the internet as a reference for the "information age" because yeah their wasn't many sites. I was referring to how fast worldwide news was delivered by CNN and the local stations. I remember watching on TV my grandmother, being interviewed several times when I was child.
Rock, I know what you meant. That was my attempt at comedy. Good thing I didn't go that route. LOL
I forget the exact percentage of people that obtain college degrees don't even practice in their so-called area of expertise.
I know several people that don't work in the major they studied. That is being flexible and employable. My SIL got her degree in Occupational Therapy. She did that for a few years until she applied and got a job as a drug rep for a large drug company and quickly double her salary and benefits. Still, her OT degree allowed her to continue her career in a different more lucrative field.
There are many reasons why people don't work in their field, but that does not degrade the education they received. I've worked in several different industries, most not exactly what my degree is in. My degree has allowed me flexibility to find work in different areas as we've moved from state to state because of my wife's job. That's another advantage of going to college. Meeting a spouse that has equal or greater earning power. I have several friends from college where both spouses make over 100k.
My parents encouraged me to take up going to college. I did go to Lake Michigan College, for a half-semster. As you might recall last year....I more/less listed all the classes and training I've obtained since high school which is likely a lot more total education than most people posting on here have !!!
Yes I remember. You have a host of certifications and classes you've taken. Have they made you more marketable/employable?
I grew up in Sweden and came to the states when my dad needed medical care, but couldnt wait the 18 months in Sweden - thus the move to Rochester, MN. It saved his life. I was educated in Sweden and taught school in the states until retiring recently. I am not proud of the product we graduate, however. I am not Swedish-American, but American! I am a sociolist at heart and am not the typical anti-american hate-filled Bushbasher teacher. You would never hear me say I support the troops, but not the war anymore than you would hear me say I support the Viking players, but hope they lose every game. I have never voted for a republican. We did not want our second son in a public college so we put him in a private school. He graduated in 4 years with better than a 3.8 GPA. I am ashamed to admit it, but I believe he has the equivelant of a 10th grade education. Schools have been dumbed down to meet the demands of the mothers (not parents - I never had a parent conference that included a father). I don't believe he stands a chance in a competetive society and thus I fully support any union and Mr. Obama. It is selfish on my part as a parent, but there are many many like my son - an entire generation of them coming up. My oldest is a die-hard capalist, but the youngest worships the earth and lacks drive.. thus the union and sociolists are his best chance. And although I never taught in Detroit, I do know they have a high school graduation rate around 25 percent. I don't know how industry will survive with that as a feeder of labor, but am sure it will work itself out.
Born in Yonkers, NY and raised in the suburbs of Westchester County...
Whoever said this: "Ford has spent the last thirty years moving its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages. Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the U.S."...if this statement is factually true, then you are looking at the business difference between union and nonunion labor...while folks can rah-rah the union, the real life reality is that the business of the future, or at least the auto business, will avoid unions like the plague as they have, as the union entitlement mentality is simply fatal to the quality workplace...
When the imports come here, they give lip service to looking up north, but they know they will move south because the people want to work instead of the unionized north, where they simply expect a check for showing up, double overtime if they actually make a car...the Big 3-UAW company model has failed, and it will die slowly but maybe with some noise...the Big 3 will file Chapter 11, simply to reorganize and dump the union contracts...forget the union "concessions" as they really have not changed the work rules, and the same lousy business model continues...the automakers need to destroy this model as archaic from the past and move onto to where people WANT to work, and that is the South...almost all of the import plants are here as Michigan is rusting out and virtually gone...if they didn't already own the land, the GM building and Ford Glass House would be moved to the South, for they have no reason to stay there, and even less reason to be there in the future...
The auto business has realized that unionized workers are simply something to avoid, and they are doing a great job of pruning them away as fast as possible...they are a cancer that destroys the business from within, and it solely rests with a worker attitude of entitlement, where they actually believe that they are OWED a paycheck for breathing...this attitude continues today, even as the union wilts daily, simply because the welfare entitlement attitude is in their genes and DNA...they simply cannot envision doing the job right yet they expect to be paid, as tho GM prints money out of thin air...
So the irony is that the Big 3, stuck with the union, sent their plants out of the country, while imports simply built their plants where there was no union, and where people had an attitude of gratitude to have a job...the fact that they can be fired on the spot for poor performance will keep the South on an even keel, whereas the 2 year union appeal process that keeps the worthless worker on the line sabotaging the product will soon come to an end for good...
Numerous posters here have written about witnessing sabotage, poor workmanship and lousy work habits of their respective unions, yet the union rah-rahs just don't get it...Honda, Toy and others know the union for what it is, and they know it ain't worth a grain of salt for a quality product...
Enjoy your unions while you can, because within 10 years, maybe 5, the automobile industry will be union free, and all the better for it...
I never regretted moving from the South, but I've always enjoyed moving to new spots. I wouldn't even mind Yonkers for a year or two. Or even Sweden. :shades:
But a few of us are, as usual, straying from the UAW connection.
"Through their UAW contracts, American Axle, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC reimburse workers for courses, usually toward a degree. Some companies also will reimburse retirees for tuition and active workers who take job-related classes."
I appreciate your honesty. I do not understand your politics with what you have told us about your father and the poor health care system in Sweden.
How do you think the UAW will survive when the Big 3 are bleeding red ink and the workers are not concerned enough to stay on the job? What incentive is there for a worker in a job like the UAW where he is protected even though he is a mediocre producer? America was built by hard working people. Those that founded the UAW were tough, hard working people. I am sure many if they were still around would not be proud of what the Union has become.
I must again repeat that I do not think the Big 3 can blame its demise on the UAW. I think they got lazy. I think the "Me" generation all through the 1990s spread a cancer throughout the companies. They were flying high with the demand for bigger and better SUVs and PU trucks. They just did not plan very well for a down turn or the price of fuel to go up.
I will probably buy my last new vehicle within the next year. I don't think the Big 3 will have anything I want. That is not my fault it rests on the shoulders of the Big 3. which includes the UAW. I will buy a vehicle that is built in the USA by proud workers that are happy to have a GOOD job.
PS I am happy your father got the treatment he needed.
I have not been to Sweden since 1990 and do not follow the country very closely. I do not consider it to be my country - I am an American. The health care was fine for routine care and everyday needs, but if it was something specialized you would often go on a long waiting list - thus many people would go elsewhere and pay for the treatment. That was my father's case. I am glad he came to MN. I do speak openly and honestly as far as politics go. I do not belong to either party, but like most people, I vote for what is in MY best interest. For me, that is my children - particularly the youngest. I don't know enough about the UAW and protecting people who are mediocre producers, but I do know the UAW is a union. We had more than our share of mediocre producers in teaching, but I belonged to the teachers union only because of potential lawsuits. Although once tenured, we are pretty much assured a job for life unless our picture would be on tv for some criminal act, I always worried about losing everything if a disgruntled parent would file a lawsuit and felt I could sleep at night knowing the union would protect me. The "shirts" at school were in it for themselves (much like the auto industry) and the union supported us when dealing with them. Their interests were NOT the teachers and NOT the children, but themselves. The schools do not measure success on the product, but the focus is placed on the input - i.e. how much money they get. In industry, if you build an unsatisfactory product you lose money or go out of business (much like this thread discusses). In the school system, if things don't go well you don't go out of business, but explain to the taxpayer that you need more money for the children. If what I say is confusing about my politics it is because my oldest son is the only republican in the family and he works me over pretty good. He always tells me that we teach kids to sit under the apple tree when they are hungry because one will eventually fall into their mouths.
As far as the autos go, I owned two union-built cars. Never again! Even more hurtful was when we were on vacation and took our minivan into a dealer with a problem (less than 20k miles on it and under warranty) and were told "you didn't buy it here and we won't work on it here". To this day, I do not understand how a dealer could do that. How was I to know my vehicle would break down in another state while on vacation and have the foresight of going there to buy one? So for me, it was more than a poorly built vehicle, it was the poor service I received. I may sound hypocritical to have a union protect my interests and not want another union built car, but that is just my true feeling and I am not ashamed of it.
And thank you for your kind words on my father. He lived almost 15 more years because of the medical care he received here. I don't know what the outcome would have been if he waited in Sweden, but the doctors here said he would not have made it 18 months.
Kay: best wishes that your father got the medical care he deserved instead of being wait listed. But GM facing pressure is going after scoflaws and is going after those not directly related to GM employee's. The health care issue with the UAW is serious indeed . May be the best issue the UAW ever negotiated even if it almost forced them into bankruptcy. " General Motors (GM) Finally Serious About Cutting That $5 Billion-A-Year Healthcare Bill (GM) Corey Lorinsky | Aug 13, 08 8:01 AM We've joked before that GM is "a health care benefits management firm that sells cars for a loss as a side venture." Unfortunately, it's barely a joke.
Well, GM is trying to figure out how to trim its massive $5 billion a year healthcare bill. It's going to start by making sure its not paying bills for people it shouldn't be (Reuters):
GM is giving its 67,000 hourly workers until Aug 20 to voluntarily remove ineligible dependents from their health policies, after which, they would have to prove the eligibility of covered-family members through an official document.
If GM learns it is paying for billions in expenses it wasn't supposed to, it may ask employees to reimburse it for the costs (good luck collecting). GM has audited its health-care rolls before, but this effort should be more extensive.
The new policy won't stop GM's multi-billion dollar losses, but at least it's a step in the right direction. "
The baggage handlers of Eastern Airlines struck because $16.00 an hour in the '70's want enough. But where exactly is Eastern now? Mgmt of the big, perhaps biggie small is mondo stupid. Beware Uaw, don't push , shove or insituate , you will win the battle and lose the war.
Bla Bla Bla....If I owned a company that had a choice between paying a wage of $10.00/hr or $30.00 an hour (just an example) what do you think I would choose? To make these personal comments about UAW workers just show some deep seeded envy on your part! Its simple economics, not a plot from the socialist UAW dude!
Like I said, it's not the workers or their work, it's the belief that the Union will make it better for them. In the end, more layers = more cost = easy target.
Even more hurtful was when we were on vacation and took our minivan into a dealer with a problem (less than 20k miles on it and under warranty) and were told "you didn't buy it here and we won't work on it here".
Wow, I've heard of that happening with other types of products, but never a car, particularly under warranty. I've owned a few foreign and several domestic vehicles. Over the past 5 years, I've lived in 5 different states and I've never had a dealer for my car or my boat deny me warranty or any type of service. That would really fire me up.
Even more hurtful was when we were on vacation and took our minivan into a dealer with a problem (less than 20k miles on it and under warranty) and were told "you didn't buy it here and we won't work on it here".
Very amazing since dealers make their big money doing warranty work. They actually thru out money.
"you didn't buy it here and we won't work on it here"
What state was that? That seems more a regional attitude than a brand. I have had overall good service from domestic & import dealers that I did not buy the vehicle from. In fact I would say I got better service from dealers that I did NOT buy from over the years. I have only needed service once on vacation in Texas. The Chrysler dealer in Boerne, TX was wonderful to us.
That of course has nothing to do with the UAW. I doubt there is a Union dealership in the country.
UAW in Politics:
WASHINGTON -- UAW President Ron Gettelfinger criticized Republican presidential candidate John McCain on Monday for opposing government loans for Detroit automakers, saying McCain "has slammed the door on any real support for the domestic auto industry."
The UAW, which has endorsed Democratic rival Barack Obama, has pushed lawmakers to fund $25 billion in low-interest loans for Detroit automakers to help cover retooling costs. Automakers have embraced the idea in recent months as a vicious economic downturn has shut their access to traditional financing.
Obama has backed a UAW proposal for Congress to approve $4 billion this year that would cover the costs for lending $25 billion, a plan that faces many hurdles to passage.
In his visit to Michigan last week, McCain said such loans wouldn't be prudent, adding he was worried about "predicting failure on the part of automakers when they've made strides on things like labor agreements." McCain has proposed a $300-million prize for battery research and a $5,000 tax credit for consumers who buy fuel-efficient vehicles.
Yet in a opinion piece printed Monday in the Detroit News, McCain said he was open to more direct aid for Detroit's automakers.
Gettelfinger said McCain's proposals would do little to return jobs.
A couple things. How little interest would they like on loans? There is money out there for under 3%. Why would McCain push a bill for the UAW's benefit? They have always backed Democrats for President. loaning money to the automakers without any real plan seems stupid. At least when we bailed out Chrysler Iacocca had a plan to revive the automaker. He offered small fuel efficient cars that sold very well.
Can the Big 3 build small fuel efficient cars with UAW labor and make a profit? I don't think they can. They have had 30 years to work at it since the last oil crisis. What small fuel efficient cars are built in UAW factories in the USA?
That is the point. They got no real plan or at least other than the GM Volt, what have they to compete against the imports. No diesel cars, no small hybrids. Would you loan them money to squander on poor contracts they agreed to 10 years ago. GM had their chance to turn it around in 1998. They buckled to the UAW and are now paying the price.
Would you loan them money to squander on poor contracts they agreed to 10 years ago.
Not at 3%! Maybe 30%. Actually I only invest in sound companies that make money. I don't have enough to speculate. But the government sure doesn't seem to mind squandering your and my money:(
What state was that? That seems more a regional attitude than a brand. I have had overall good service from domestic & import dealers that I did not buy the vehicle from. In fact I would say I got better service from dealers that I did NOT buy from over the years. I have only needed service once on vacation in Texas. The Chrysler dealer in Boerne, TX was wonderful to us.
Florida. The service writer walked behind each car in the line to look at the dealership stickers. When he saw ours didnt have their sticker and had an out of state tag he made that statement. We went to another dealership about 30 miles away and they did take care of it without any problems.
<and they did take care of it without any problems.
So you badmouth the UAW union because the independent dealer was a fool? Ridiculous logic.
You should have written and called a complaint about the dealer who wouldn't work on your car. Of course you made a note of the person's name who told you that...?
Frankly that would be like my complaining I'd never buy another Ford because of their timing gear wear issues on 70s Ford products. I could spend my time in their forums telling them what trash their workers assembled, but I don't. I have just never bought another Ford. I did win one, which I had to eat crow to accept because I'd said I'd never own another Ford, but I rationalized that since it was free (other than income tax exposure) I could accept it. You don't hear me here complaining at Ford and their union workers who built the motors.
Relatives had a GM car bought in Ft. Wayne and were in another country, Niagara Falls, CA when something happened to their shift lever. Towed to dealer. They special ordered a broken part (which they said never breaks) and had it there the next day. The relatives were treated like valued customers. I went into a Ford deal in Atlanta area when I was visiting/working with a friend (flipping houses) with an AC leak. They checked for leak. Found it. Recommended waiting until I drove back home to have the hose assembly replaced. No charge for their time and the check.
Looking into the future is what America doesn't do too well. We are a throw away/pack rat society and not anything like overseas. The storage business is doing well as a result of the pack rats. These folks are consuming stuff they are not likely to use. Others are wasteful and continue to buy for the short term and merely toss away the unwanted.
Unlike those overseas, our society doesn't tax you as much and therefore we waste. Most Europeans keep their cars longer and take care of them better. Benz as taxis seem like the cab company owners are looking long term. Then too the technical people are trained better too. The auto companies/repair shops invest more in their employees. As a country we invest for short term profit as they look at the long term overseas.
The social experiments by Saturn (a different kind of car company) didn't pan out as the great management/labor partnership. The Cadillac Catera didn't do too well either as most dealerships didn't want to pay for the expense of training their service folks on these euro cars. There are countless other failures along with these. You can bring in all these ideas from overseas, but the America has to buy in. The darling of the American business schools is Toyota and the lean mentality. A whole cult of these Six Sigma folks have been trying there hardest to fix companies for years now. They are in every industry. Including the Big Three and have the same Toyota/Honda mentality, that the greatest things come from Japan. Not that they haven't had some impact, however, they seem like a phase at the moment.
During good times everyone is happy. However, bad times we see the finger pointing and the UAW looks like an easy target to blame all our woes. We have done so much more than Japan as a nation and will continue to do so.
>"I think you'll be surprised at how close in price the 2 can come. Checking Herb Chambers, a dealer network up here that sells everything, They list DTS' from around $42K up to $56K. But the base models that list for $42K can be had for $32,995, and leased for $399/mo. The CR-V lists between $21K for a FWD to close to $30K for a 4x4. Nowhere do they advertise any discounts, just a 36 mo lease for $199/ mo w/ $2500 down."
cooterbfd,
I can't speak directly to the CR-V bottom line in the past couple of years, only back to '03 when we bought our '03 Pilot and CR-V. In the last year, Numbers of somewhere in the $3000 discount were spoken but we didn't pursue. However I can speak clearly regarding the newer Civics and Ridgeline trucks. As I was directly involved in bottom line shopping for those.
In a nutshell, last summer, at all local dealers, A new '07 Ridgeline my next door neighbor purchased was discounted from an MSRP of $29K down to the mid $23Ks. A few months ago my son bought a new '08 RL for the mid $24Ks. At that same time, they were discounting the $18Kish Civics somewhere in the $2500 range.
Let's consider your numbers for a second. The base model DTS, according to your figures, list for $42K and is discounted $9000 to $33K. With a lease of $399 monthly. Chances are good that a $3000 (or more) discount deal can be gotten on the CR-V, as when we were looking earlier, because you show the lease at $199 monthly . If so, the base CR-V would be in the $18K-$19K range. The DTS could be $13K-$14 more to purchase. However there is more to it than that.
NOTE: You showed a $2500 sign up for the CR-V but nothing for the DTS. :confuse:
Leases are figured on residual value when the lease is up. According to the above figures, the CR-V would sell for somewhere in the neighborhood of 83% of the DTS. Therefore the DTS real price is 17% more than the CR-V. That seems like a good value. Your numbers show the lease price of the DTS is twice (100% more) than the CR-V. This indicates the DTS will loose considerably more of its value than the CR-V over the life of the lease. This also indicates that a purchased DTS will loose more of it's value than a purchased CR-V over the years.
Even when new, they are willing to discount (de valuate) the DTS considerably more than the CR-V. As I said before, I hope the DTS will prove to be a good car. But at this point in time, for a car to keep running, and looking at the re sale or trade in down the road, I will stick to what has proven to be best for me and mine.
The only down side in our experience with Honda, is that I don't know the techs, service writers, and service managers on a first name basis. I did with the last few B3 vehicles.
No, the South hasn't risen, but it does seem to be rising...having few unions down here does seem to attract the new auto factories from the imports...it isn't the auto industry that is dying, it is the Big 3 that are dying...no pleasure in that statement, but it is simply true...GM shuts a plant yet Kia builds one...difference???...non-UAW, plain and simple...they will have power bills, steel bills, upholstery bills, etc., but they will NOT deal with the auto union...better said, they will not deal with auto union WORKERS, who, up north, live for the entitlement that they are owed a job, or at least a paycheck...that attitude does not exist down here...
Maybe they are educating country hicks to do the work, but it was those same country hicks ancestors in the 40s and 50s that moved up north for the better wages as opposed to farming...so, that "well-trained" union workforce that some folks tout is really just the descendants of the Southerners who moved up there to work...if, back then, GM and Ford could train the hicks to do the work, why can't Kia and Honda train them down here to do it now, but without the bad counter-productive influence of a union???
On the dealer who wouldn't honor warranty work if you didn't buy there - if it was a Big 3 dealer you would have recourse from the manufacturer.
About 20 years ago this became an issue with Ford. Dealers were not required to do such work on cars not bought at their dealerships. GM and Chrysler did require them to do such work. To hear our local Ford dealer talk you'd think we were stealing their kids or something. Ford started requiring all dealers to cover all warranty work and the earth didn't explode.
Heck, that Ford dealer is now a ton of dealerships and they did warranty work on a Honda I bought 120 miles away.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
We did call GM and they sent us to the other dealership. I am not badmouthing the UAW, but we had two UAW-built vehicles and each had numerous issues. As consumers, it didn't matter to us who was responsible for the poor quality of the vehicles. In a lifetime, one buys only so many vehicles. If you get burned twice it is more than enough.
but it was those same country hicks ancestors in the 40s and 50s that moved up north for the better wages as opposed to farming...so, that "well-trained" union workforce that some folks tout is really just the descendants of the Southerners who moved up there to work
True, my grandpa and his siblings grew up in Tennessee. He moved to northern Indiana before the war to get a job at the mill. Moving to pursue opportunity certainly is not a new concept.
Ridiculous to you but remember, the dealer is the link between the public consumer and the manufacturer. We vote with our wallet when we are a consumer. The UAW happens to be a part of the US Auto package. The system ain't workin' and the dealers are included with in the model.
Bob, it's difficult for me to understand the idiosincraties(?) of UAW contracts, as it seems the rules change dramatically from plant to plant. I do know that at one time, the Big 3 had UAW plants littered all over the country, even down South. What I find appalling is some of the hiring practices of companies like Honda, who, while building in a union friendly state like Ohio, go dramatically out of their way to avoid hiring anyone associated with a union. I was having a discussion w/ my brother about this, and as anti union as he is, even he was at a loss of words when I mentioned that their hiring practices would preclude him from being hired by them no matter how qualified he would be for any position they would have, as both me and my wife are union.
As far as it concerns me, here in RI, the work I do MUST be done here (telecommunications). You can't just pick up a manhole and ship it down South, have somebody do the work cheaply and send it back.
Having said that, RI is THE MOST COMPETITIVE STATE in the country for telephone service. 40% of the land lines in the state are owned by our competition, mainly Cox communications. Their workers are paid HALF what we are. They made inroads that big, real fast, because they were able to "bundle" telephone service for $10/ mo. with cable TV, which we weren't offering at the time, and they were the only game in town for cable.
We weren't able to just cut our prices, because based on the fact that it is "Ma Bell's" old network, it is still regulated heavily, whereas the cable tv industry isn't. When the FCC ruled that our Fios fiber optic service would be a completely new network, not subject to old "Ma Bell" regulations, and wouldn't have to be shared by anybody, we were in business.
We now offer cable tv, phone, and internet, all better than Cox (you can get 20 meg download AND upload internet) for the same price, give or take a couple of dollars.
So tell me, if Verizon can offer a bundled package of all 3 services for the same price as Cox, all while paying us TWICE what Cox pays its employees (not to mention Cox hires contractors to do their installs cheaper than their own employees) who's screwing who???? Is Cox screwing it's customers, all the while raking in billions??? Are we screwing Verizon (they DO make billions as well)???? Are Cox employees getting the shaft???
Hyundai and Kia may get away with paying $10/hr, as generally their products are marketed as being as good as "mainstream" cars, only at bargain basement prices.
But even companies like Toyota are under the gun to "pay the piper" to keep the unions at bay, as their cars sell for as much, if not more than the Big 3. It's only natural that employees are going to ask for "their fair share" when things are going good. See below:
Comments
Lemko, I agree with you 100%. My wife and I along with our siblings wouldn't be where we are today without the sacrifices and hard work of our parents. A lot of that support was provided by union jobs and wages.
First, you type this: I understand some of ya'll didn't grow-up and see the real world until you were almost adults and lived a sheltered life and was oblivious to the world around you because of state geography.
Then you type this: Hell some of ya'll in the south I'm sure called your restroom a wooden shack outside until 20 or 30 years ago !! I'm literally being serious !!!
The South has been on the upswing economically since at least the mid 1960s. And they had the widespread use of indoor plumbing long before that.
Were there poor people down South? Sure. But then, there were poor people in New York City, Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit and other places north of the Mason-Dixon line.
You're not doing a good job of convincing us that you were familiar with the "real world" and lived an "unsheltered life" when you type things like that.
If anyone was "sheltered" 20-30 years ago, it was the blue-collar and white-collar workers of the Big Three. They had no clue as to why the Japanese were making inroads into the American market. Judging by some of the products they are offering the public, and some of the public statements by union members and executives, I think there is still a fair amount of denial there...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Unions, however, are another story...I am NOT blue collar bashing, it is unions that I think are ridiculous...also, commenting on the job does NOT criticize the worker doing an honest day's work...but one can simply state that floor sweeping is not worth $25/hour w/o criticizing the person who does it...but it is the skill level of the job on which I comment...
Also, rocky, please do not forget that I grew up outside of New York City, so don't throw me in with those who had outhouses...I am sure I knew what urban life was like long before you were a gleam in your father's eye...:):):):):)
And, being union, you only saw the union side of anything, you would never have been exposed to the capitalist/business side of anything, since all you knew growing up was, "what are we striking for this time, and who comes first in the pattern bargaining?"
Has your niece left Michigan yet...have you?????????????????????
I guess growing up in a UAW family during the 80's in Michigan means being told your entitled to lifetime employment, the world revolves around Detroit, and everyone south of Michigan is ignorant and still crapping in an outhouse.
Sites such as this still track that type of discount, and even then Honda and Toyota still offer lower discounts than the domestics. There is no "magic" involved. These discounts are tracked by Edmunds.com, and anyone can determine how much cash each respective auto maker needs to put on the hood to move the metal.
This information is about as secret and discrete as Britney-sans-underpants.
imidazol97: I recall in 2003 and around then when the Honda and Toyota folks on Edmunds would bristle at the idea that they had to give rebates because their cars were so in demand that they didn't need rebates. It wasn't long after that the rebates started appearing!!!
Honda does not offer direct-to-customer rebates. Toyota does. This is hardly a secret, however, given that I've seen television advertisements for Toyota prominently mentioning available rebates on various models.
Maybe you have a different definition of what constitutes a "secret" practice, but around here, companies that want to keep a practice secret don't advertise it on television.
imidazol97: But the Honda folks tended to have "dealer incentives" so that the unknowing consumer could be plucked for the cash when the dealer didn't actually discount whatever the incentive amount to them was along with, in this area, horrific addons and packs to pluck the consumer feathers further.
That's what happens when customers don't shop around. And the idea that GM dealers, for example, don't do the same thing to uninformed customers is naive, at best.
imidazol97: The use of "hidden incentives" furthered the consumer illusion that they never were discounted.
You need to get out more and actually talk to a Honda owner. I know of no one who has bought a Honda at full sticker. They expect discounts just like everyone else. The market is too competitive these days - unless you are buying a Prius.
imidazol97: It's a parallel to the hidden repairs done in the 80s and 90s so that consumers didn't know there were actually, gasp, flaws that got repaired on the foreign car just like on American branded cars.
Yes. All an auto company needs to do is replace defective parts on the sly. Customers will never know, and mechanics will never spill the beans.
I guess the Big Three have wasted millions of dollars to reform their production processes, supplier chains and vehicle development processes. All they really needed to do was have their dealers replace defective parts on the sly. The quality gap never existed. Those dummies in Detroit got fooled again by listening to the pinko-commie-tree hugger brigade who read Consumer Reports.
Who knew?
Tuesday means Mazda chat night! Mazda ownership is not a requirement!
The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight to meet and greet with your fellow CarSpace members!
See you there!
Oh, no. Please don't tell me you were a neighbor....
New Jersey?
I received this from a student of mine a year or so ago:
A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River . Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile. The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager. They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens and a certificate of completion for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower (a reduction in workforce) for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was "out-sourced" to India .
Sadly, the End.
However, sad, but oh so true!
Here's something else to think about:
Ford has spent the last thirty years moving its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages. Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the U.S.
The last quarter's results:
Toyota made 4 billion in profit while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses. Ford folks are still scratching their heads.
IF THIS WASN'T SO SAD IT MIGHT BE FUNNY!
The CEOs of these companies continue in their positions and get bonuses!!! A bonus for running the company into the ground? One might think you would lose your job for that!
Regards,
OW
Although the University of Michigan’s American Customer Satisfaction Index doesn’t have the clout of other industry surveys – such as J.D. Power and Consumer Reports – it does give an indication of a customer’s satisfaction with a six month to three year old vehicle. The domestic automakers probably should start taking note of U of M’s study as all three performed poorly in this year’s survey.
The Big Three had actually been gaining on their Japanese and German rivals over the past few years, but the Michigan automakers took a big hit this year. “The gap is extending. Detroit is falling,” Claes Fornell, the professor in charge of the study, told The Detroit News. “It’s all foreign at the top and all American at the bottom.”
Fornell says that the decrease in satisfaction with the domestic brands is directly related to their truck and SUV-heavy lineups. Consumers have become fed up with high gas prices and therefore aren’t as satisfied with their large vehicles.
General Motors’ Chevrolet brand fell the furthest in the study – slipping by 3.7 percent – and actually ranked just behind Kia. The only brands ranked below Chevy in the survey were Chrysler’s Dodge and Jeep brands.
Despite the poor performance by Chevy, GM’s Buick was the highest ranked domestic brand, and the company’s Saturn division posted the biggest improvements. Coincidently, Saturn is GM’s most fuel-efficient brand.
Ford’s Lincoln and Mercury brands fared well – ranking above the industry average – but the Ford brand actually came in below the average.
Lexus, BMW, Toyota and Honda took the top four spots, respectively.
I predict they will discontinue Buick and Saturn!
Regards,
OW
Both my mother and father worked Union jobs. They both became unhappy with the work ethic. Especially my Dad that was in the Carpenter's Union as a Foreman most of the time. He got tired of guys coming to work late or without their tools. Guys sent out from the hall as journeymen that could not layout a wall from the plans. It goes on and on. He finally withdrew and went to work as a super for a non-Union contractor IN MICHIGAN. He spent his last 20 years at Capp Homes traveling the USA fixing problems done by poor workmen. So yes both Union and Non-Union have poor workers. I think it is the Union's place to weed out the trash.
My father never got far enough ahead to send me to college. I was paying room and board from the time I started Jr High School. My dad always worked hard raising my 4 younger brother and sisters. He sometimes worked two jobs so my mom could stay home with the kids. I was fortunate and made the right job decisions and got good training. I was also willing to go where the good jobs were at. Being a retired Blue Collar worker I never felt that I was looked down upon by the college crowd.
When did the Big 3 start building vehicles in Canada and Mexico? My first GM PU came from Canada in 1988. You would think the UAW would have asked themselves why are the Big 3 moving to other countries long before now. Is it something we are not doing right? If the company I was working for was bleeding red ink, I would either work harder to try and stop the bleeding or jump ship if it was sinking. The UAW's response cut em deeper with a strike. The UAW does not have the sympathy of the American public.
I wasn't referring to the internet as a reference for the "information age" because yeah their wasn't many sites. I was referring to how fast worldwide news was delivered by CNN and the local stations. I remember watching on TV my grandmother, being interviewed several times when I was child.
All of this enlightenment at an early age, and no one saw the writing on the wall!!!! It has been obvious for 30 years that the domestic auto industry has been in trouble. I grew up near the steel mills in NW Indiana. My grandpa worked as a union steel worker for 43 years, my FIL worked as an iron worker for 33 years until LTV went belly up and he elected to retire. My grandpa and parents as did my wife's parents always talked to us about getting an education and getting the hell out of town for a better life. They sacrificed to provide us and our siblings an opportunity for higher education for the possibility for a better life. They didn't fill my head with the BS that "the mill and union is good enough for me, it will be good enough for you".
Sounds like your's wanted you to stick around and feel the pain.
diesel, what amazes me is you talk like your associated with the ubber wealthy but are in denial that you are middle class folk and from what it sounds like were raised as such. I get the feeling you think because you and your children went to college and obtained a degree you are "worth" more to society than the UAW, worker. I forget the exact percentage of people that obtain college degrees don't even practice in their so-called area of expertise. I personally prefer the "European Way" of education where you train during high school after being evaluated on what field you will go into. It's more cost effective and efficient as time and money isn't blown on wasteful classes. I believe our education system will become more efficient by requring less classes to obtain a degree but I highly doubt the cost of such classes will ever come down !!!!
FYI- My parents encouraged me to take up going to college. I did go to Lake Michigan College, for a half-semster. As you might recall last year....I more/less listed all the classes and training I've obtained since high school which is likely a lot more total education than most people posting on here have !!!
-Rocky
Well that could be said about way to many on here. All these drug and alcohol related comments about UAW, workers well doesn't make ya'll credible with me. i.e. (see an above post referring to Strohs beer and assembly)
-Rocky
P.S. I guess that depends on which area of the south you are talking about !!!
Has your niece (*cousin) left Michigan yet...have you?????????????????????
Why leave ??? Go where ??? Georgia ??? Kia ??? They pay what $10 or 11 bucks an hour for sweat shop labor ??? The price of homes isn't exactly cheap in Georgia, so what advantage would I have living there vs. here ??? :confuse:
-Rocky
That was one heck of a funny but sad post!!!
-Rocky
The last quarter's results:
Toyota made 4 billion in profit while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses. Ford folks are still scratching their heads.
Well it is not rocket science my friend. And it is not just Toyota building plants in the USA. The US does have people that are willing to work and not feel that they are entitled to make as much as the owners of the company. As a result, BMW, MB, Nissan, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda and now VW all have plants here or are being built here. NOT ONE has gone to a state controlled by the UAW. If the UAW supplied an excellent workforce they would have been considered. It is the attitude of some people that the workforce provided by the UAW is worth a heck of a lot more than anywhere else. That is the problem, and is not even close to reality. All of these companies are smart enough to know that they can take the average HS graduate and train them to build a car the way they like it. In fact it is probably easier to take an untrained young person that is willing to work and train them. The imports probably came here to get away from the repressive labor Unions in Japan, Korea and Germany.
Trust me, if the Big 3 could build plants in the states that the imports are building they would do it. No way they can be loosed from the UAW noose and you see the result. It is easier to just build in another country. My experience is 2 GM PU trucks from Canada and a Chevy PU and Suburban from Mexico were better put together than my GMC PU built by the UAW in Indiana. I will not blame it all on the UAW. They do have to share some of the blame.
My children went to college? Yikes!!!! How old do you think I am. I guess it would be biologically possible for me to have a kid in college, but they are still in elementary school.
My wife and I were raised middle class. I feel we're middle class, but our household income is at a level that we didn't qualify for child tax credits. Regardless we certainly aren't at you put it, uber wealthy.
I don't know what this has to do with my thoughts on the UAW. My point is that I didn't graduate from high school expecting/relying on a good job at the mill. Some of my friends went that route and are doing fine. Ironically they've also got a skill/degree that most likely will provide them with a job if the mills get in trouble again. My point was simply, the issues with the big 3 have been going on for a long time.
Rock, I know what you meant. That was my attempt at comedy. Good thing I didn't go that route. LOL
I forget the exact percentage of people that obtain college degrees don't even practice in their so-called area of expertise.
I know several people that don't work in the major they studied. That is being flexible and employable. My SIL got her degree in Occupational Therapy. She did that for a few years until she applied and got a job as a drug rep for a large drug company and quickly double her salary and benefits. Still, her OT degree allowed her to continue her career in a different more lucrative field.
There are many reasons why people don't work in their field, but that does not degrade the education they received. I've worked in several different industries, most not exactly what my degree is in. My degree has allowed me flexibility to find work in different areas as we've moved from state to state because of my wife's job. That's another advantage of going to college. Meeting a spouse that has equal or greater earning power. I have several friends from college where both spouses make over 100k.
My parents encouraged me to take up going to college. I did go to Lake Michigan College, for a half-semster. As you might recall last year....I more/less listed all the classes and training I've obtained since high school which is likely a lot more total education than most people posting on here have !!!
Yes I remember. You have a host of certifications and classes you've taken. Have they made you more marketable/employable?
We did not want our second son in a public college so we put him in a private school. He graduated in 4 years with better than a 3.8 GPA. I am ashamed to admit it, but I believe he has the equivelant of a 10th grade education. Schools have been dumbed down to meet the demands of the mothers (not parents - I never had a parent conference that included a father). I don't believe he stands a chance in a competetive society and thus I fully support any union and Mr. Obama. It is selfish on my part as a parent, but there are many many like my son - an entire generation of them coming up. My oldest is a die-hard capalist, but the youngest worships the earth and lacks drive.. thus the union and sociolists are his best chance. And although I never taught in Detroit, I do know they have a high school graduation rate around 25 percent. I don't know how industry will survive with that as a feeder of labor, but am sure it will work itself out.
Whoever said this: "Ford has spent the last thirty years moving its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages. Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the U.S."...if this statement is factually true, then you are looking at the business difference between union and nonunion labor...while folks can rah-rah the union, the real life reality is that the business of the future, or at least the auto business, will avoid unions like the plague as they have, as the union entitlement mentality is simply fatal to the quality workplace...
When the imports come here, they give lip service to looking up north, but they know they will move south because the people want to work instead of the unionized north, where they simply expect a check for showing up, double overtime if they actually make a car...the Big 3-UAW company model has failed, and it will die slowly but maybe with some noise...the Big 3 will file Chapter 11, simply to reorganize and dump the union contracts...forget the union "concessions" as they really have not changed the work rules, and the same lousy business model continues...the automakers need to destroy this model as archaic from the past and move onto to where people WANT to work, and that is the South...almost all of the import plants are here as Michigan is rusting out and virtually gone...if they didn't already own the land, the GM building and Ford Glass House would be moved to the South, for they have no reason to stay there, and even less reason to be there in the future...
The auto business has realized that unionized workers are simply something to avoid, and they are doing a great job of pruning them away as fast as possible...they are a cancer that destroys the business from within, and it solely rests with a worker attitude of entitlement, where they actually believe that they are OWED a paycheck for breathing...this attitude continues today, even as the union wilts daily, simply because the welfare entitlement attitude is in their genes and DNA...they simply cannot envision doing the job right yet they expect to be paid, as tho GM prints money out of thin air...
So the irony is that the Big 3, stuck with the union, sent their plants out of the country, while imports simply built their plants where there was no union, and where people had an attitude of gratitude to have a job...the fact that they can be fired on the spot for poor performance will keep the South on an even keel, whereas the 2 year union appeal process that keeps the worthless worker on the line sabotaging the product will soon come to an end for good...
Numerous posters here have written about witnessing sabotage, poor workmanship and lousy work habits of their respective unions, yet the union rah-rahs just don't get it...Honda, Toy and others know the union for what it is, and they know it ain't worth a grain of salt for a quality product...
Enjoy your unions while you can, because within 10 years, maybe 5, the automobile industry will be union free, and all the better for it...
But a few of us are, as usual, straying from the UAW connection.
For those who believe in the new reality, Skill-building eases transitions as automakers shrink workforce.
"Through their UAW contracts, American Axle, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC reimburse workers for courses, usually toward a degree. Some companies also will reimburse retirees for tuition and active workers who take job-related classes."
How do you think the UAW will survive when the Big 3 are bleeding red ink and the workers are not concerned enough to stay on the job? What incentive is there for a worker in a job like the UAW where he is protected even though he is a mediocre producer? America was built by hard working people. Those that founded the UAW were tough, hard working people. I am sure many if they were still around would not be proud of what the Union has become.
I must again repeat that I do not think the Big 3 can blame its demise on the UAW. I think they got lazy. I think the "Me" generation all through the 1990s spread a cancer throughout the companies. They were flying high with the demand for bigger and better SUVs and PU trucks. They just did not plan very well for a down turn or the price of fuel to go up.
I will probably buy my last new vehicle within the next year. I don't think the Big 3 will have anything I want. That is not my fault it rests on the shoulders of the Big 3. which includes the UAW. I will buy a vehicle that is built in the USA by proud workers that are happy to have a GOOD job.
PS
I am happy your father got the treatment he needed.
As far as the autos go, I owned two union-built cars. Never again! Even more hurtful was when we were on vacation and took our minivan into a dealer with a problem (less than 20k miles on it and under warranty) and were told "you didn't buy it here and we won't work on it here". To this day, I do not understand how a dealer could do that. How was I to know my vehicle would break down in another state while on vacation and have the foresight of going there to buy one? So for me, it was more than a poorly built vehicle, it was the poor service I received. I may sound hypocritical to have a union protect my interests and not want another union built car, but that is just my true feeling and I am not ashamed of it.
And thank you for your kind words on my father. He lived almost 15 more years because of the medical care he received here. I don't know what the outcome would have been if he waited in Sweden, but the doctors here said he would not have made it 18 months.
best wishes that your father got the medical care he deserved instead of being wait listed. But GM facing pressure is going after scoflaws and is going after those not directly related to GM employee's. The health care issue with the UAW is serious indeed . May be the best issue the UAW ever negotiated even if it almost forced them into bankruptcy.
"
General Motors (GM) Finally Serious About Cutting That $5 Billion-A-Year Healthcare Bill (GM)
Corey Lorinsky | Aug 13, 08 8:01 AM
We've joked before that GM is "a health care benefits management firm that sells cars for a loss as a side venture." Unfortunately, it's barely a joke.
Well, GM is trying to figure out how to trim its massive $5 billion a year healthcare bill. It's going to start by making sure its not paying bills for people it shouldn't be (Reuters):
GM is giving its 67,000 hourly workers until Aug 20 to voluntarily remove ineligible dependents from their health policies, after which, they would have to prove the eligibility of covered-family members through an official document.
If GM learns it is paying for billions in expenses it wasn't supposed to, it may ask employees to reimburse it for the costs (good luck collecting). GM has audited its health-care rolls before, but this effort should be more extensive.
The new policy won't stop GM's multi-billion dollar losses, but at least it's a step in the right direction. "
The baggage handlers of Eastern Airlines struck because $16.00 an hour in the '70's want enough. But where exactly is Eastern now? Mgmt of the big, perhaps biggie small is mondo stupid. Beware Uaw, don't push , shove or insituate , you will win the battle and lose the war.
Regards,
OW
Wow, I've heard of that happening with other types of products, but never a car, particularly under warranty. I've owned a few foreign and several domestic vehicles. Over the past 5 years, I've lived in 5 different states and I've never had a dealer for my car or my boat deny me warranty or any type of service. That would really fire me up.
Great posts.
Very amazing since dealers make their big money doing warranty work. They actually thru out money.
What state was that? That seems more a regional attitude than a brand. I have had overall good service from domestic & import dealers that I did not buy the vehicle from. In fact I would say I got better service from dealers that I did NOT buy from over the years. I have only needed service once on vacation in Texas. The Chrysler dealer in Boerne, TX was wonderful to us.
That of course has nothing to do with the UAW. I doubt there is a Union dealership in the country.
UAW in Politics:
WASHINGTON -- UAW President Ron Gettelfinger criticized Republican presidential candidate John McCain on Monday for opposing government loans for Detroit automakers, saying McCain "has slammed the door on any real support for the domestic auto industry."
The UAW, which has endorsed Democratic rival Barack Obama, has pushed lawmakers to fund $25 billion in low-interest loans for Detroit automakers to help cover retooling costs. Automakers have embraced the idea in recent months as a vicious economic downturn has shut their access to traditional financing.
Obama has backed a UAW proposal for Congress to approve $4 billion this year that would cover the costs for lending $25 billion, a plan that faces many hurdles to passage.
In his visit to Michigan last week, McCain said such loans wouldn't be prudent, adding he was worried about "predicting failure on the part of automakers when they've made strides on things like labor agreements." McCain has proposed a $300-million prize for battery research and a $5,000 tax credit for consumers who buy fuel-efficient vehicles.
Yet in a opinion piece printed Monday in the Detroit News, McCain said he was open to more direct aid for Detroit's automakers.
Gettelfinger said McCain's proposals would do little to return jobs.
A couple things. How little interest would they like on loans? There is money out there for under 3%. Why would McCain push a bill for the UAW's benefit? They have always backed Democrats for President. loaning money to the automakers without any real plan seems stupid. At least when we bailed out Chrysler Iacocca had a plan to revive the automaker. He offered small fuel efficient cars that sold very well.
Can the Big 3 build small fuel efficient cars with UAW labor and make a profit? I don't think they can. They have had 30 years to work at it since the last oil crisis. What small fuel efficient cars are built in UAW factories in the USA?
Can GM/Ford realistically borrow money at that kind of rate when their credit ratings are terrible.
Not at 3%! Maybe 30%. Actually I only invest in sound companies that make money. I don't have enough to speculate. But the government sure doesn't seem to mind squandering your and my money:(
Florida. The service writer walked behind each car in the line to look at the dealership stickers. When he saw ours didnt have their sticker and had an out of state tag he made that statement. We went to another dealership about 30 miles away and they did take care of it without any problems.
So you badmouth the UAW union because the independent dealer was a fool? Ridiculous logic.
You should have written and called a complaint about the dealer who wouldn't work on your car. Of course you made a note of the person's name who told you that...?
Frankly that would be like my complaining I'd never buy another Ford because of their timing gear wear issues on 70s Ford products. I could spend my time in their forums telling them what trash their workers assembled, but I don't. I have just never bought another Ford. I did win one, which I had to eat crow to accept because I'd said I'd never own another Ford, but I rationalized that since it was free (other than income tax exposure) I could accept it. You don't hear me here complaining at Ford and their union workers who built the motors.
Relatives had a GM car bought in Ft. Wayne and were in another country, Niagara Falls, CA when something happened to their shift lever. Towed to dealer. They special ordered a broken part (which they said never breaks) and had it there the next day. The relatives were treated like valued customers. I went into a Ford deal in Atlanta area when I was visiting/working with a friend (flipping houses) with an AC leak. They checked for leak. Found it. Recommended waiting until I drove back home to have the hose assembly replaced. No charge for their time and the check.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Unlike those overseas, our society doesn't tax you as much and therefore we waste. Most Europeans keep their cars longer and take care of them better. Benz as taxis seem like the cab company owners are looking long term. Then too the technical people are trained better too. The auto companies/repair shops invest more in their employees. As a country we invest for short term profit as they look at the long term overseas.
The social experiments by Saturn (a different kind of car company) didn't pan out as the great management/labor partnership. The Cadillac Catera didn't do too well either as most dealerships didn't want to pay for the expense of training their service folks on these euro cars. There are countless other failures along with these. You can bring in all these ideas from overseas, but the America has to buy in. The darling of the American business schools is Toyota and the lean mentality. A whole cult of these Six Sigma folks have been trying there hardest to fix companies for years now. They are in every industry. Including the Big Three and have the same Toyota/Honda mentality, that the greatest things come from Japan. Not that they haven't had some impact, however, they seem like a phase at the moment.
During good times everyone is happy. However, bad times we see the finger pointing and the UAW looks like an easy target to blame all our woes. We have done so much more than Japan as a nation and will continue to do so.
cooterbfd,
I can't speak directly to the CR-V bottom line in the past couple of years, only back to '03 when we bought our '03 Pilot and CR-V. In the last year, Numbers of somewhere in the $3000 discount were spoken but we didn't pursue. However I can speak clearly regarding the newer Civics and Ridgeline trucks. As I was directly involved in bottom line shopping for those.
In a nutshell, last summer, at all local dealers, A new '07 Ridgeline my next door neighbor purchased was discounted from an MSRP of $29K down to the mid $23Ks. A few months ago my son bought a new '08 RL for the mid $24Ks. At that same time, they were discounting the $18Kish Civics somewhere in the $2500 range.
Let's consider your numbers for a second. The base model DTS, according to your figures, list for $42K and is discounted $9000 to $33K. With a lease of $399 monthly. Chances are good that a $3000 (or more) discount deal can be gotten on the CR-V, as when we were looking earlier, because you show the lease at $199 monthly . If so, the base CR-V would be in the $18K-$19K range. The DTS could be $13K-$14 more to purchase. However there is more to it than that.
NOTE: You showed a $2500 sign up for the CR-V but nothing for the DTS. :confuse:
Leases are figured on residual value when the lease is up. According to the above figures, the CR-V would sell for somewhere in the neighborhood of 83% of the DTS. Therefore the DTS real price is 17% more than the CR-V. That seems like a good value. Your numbers show the lease price of the DTS is twice (100% more) than the CR-V. This indicates the DTS will loose considerably more of its value than the CR-V over the life of the lease. This also indicates that a purchased DTS will loose more of it's value than a purchased CR-V over the years.
Even when new, they are willing to discount (de valuate) the DTS considerably more than the CR-V. As I said before, I hope the DTS will prove to be a good car. But at this point in time, for a car to keep running, and looking at the re sale or trade in down the road, I will stick to what has proven to be best for me and mine.
The only down side in our experience with Honda, is that I don't know the techs, service writers, and service managers on a first name basis. I did with the last few B3 vehicles.
Kip
Maybe they are educating country hicks to do the work, but it was those same country hicks ancestors in the 40s and 50s that moved up north for the better wages as opposed to farming...so, that "well-trained" union workforce that some folks tout is really just the descendants of the Southerners who moved up there to work...if, back then, GM and Ford could train the hicks to do the work, why can't Kia and Honda train them down here to do it now, but without the bad counter-productive influence of a union???
That I did, and I assume that the down payment would be similar. I was more concerned with the $32K selling price.
About 20 years ago this became an issue with Ford. Dealers were not required to do such work on cars not bought at their dealerships. GM and Chrysler did require them to do such work. To hear our local Ford dealer talk you'd think we were stealing their kids or something. Ford started requiring all dealers to cover all warranty work and the earth didn't explode.
Heck, that Ford dealer is now a ton of dealerships and they did warranty work on a Honda I bought 120 miles away.
We did call GM and they sent us to the other dealership. I am not badmouthing the UAW, but we had two UAW-built vehicles and each had numerous issues. As consumers, it didn't matter to us who was responsible for the poor quality of the vehicles. In a lifetime, one buys only so many vehicles. If you get burned twice it is more than enough.
True, my grandpa and his siblings grew up in Tennessee. He moved to northern Indiana before the war to get a job at the mill. Moving to pursue opportunity certainly is not a new concept.
Regards,
OW
As far as it concerns me, here in RI, the work I do MUST be done here (telecommunications). You can't just pick up a manhole and ship it down South, have somebody do the work cheaply and send it back.
Having said that, RI is THE MOST COMPETITIVE STATE in the country for telephone service. 40% of the land lines in the state are owned by our competition, mainly Cox communications. Their workers are paid HALF what we are. They made inroads that big, real fast, because they were able to "bundle" telephone service for $10/ mo. with cable TV, which we weren't offering at the time, and they were the only game in town for cable.
We weren't able to just cut our prices, because based on the fact that it is "Ma Bell's" old network, it is still regulated heavily, whereas the cable tv industry isn't. When the FCC ruled that our Fios fiber optic service would be a completely new network, not subject to old "Ma Bell" regulations, and wouldn't have to be shared by anybody, we were in business.
We now offer cable tv, phone, and internet, all better than Cox (you can get 20 meg download AND upload internet) for the same price, give or take a couple of dollars.
So tell me, if Verizon can offer a bundled package of all 3 services for the same price as Cox, all while paying us TWICE what Cox pays its employees (not to mention Cox hires contractors to do their installs cheaper than their own employees) who's screwing who???? Is Cox screwing it's customers, all the while raking in billions??? Are we screwing Verizon (they DO make billions as well)???? Are Cox employees getting the shaft???
Hyundai and Kia may get away with paying $10/hr, as generally their products are marketed as being as good as "mainstream" cars, only at bargain basement prices.
But even companies like Toyota are under the gun to "pay the piper" to keep the unions at bay, as their cars sell for as much, if not more than the Big 3. It's only natural that employees are going to ask for "their fair share" when things are going good. See below:
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/18/toyota-refuses-to-lay-off-workers-but-has-gre- at-flower-beds/#comments