>" Hell some of ya'll in the south I'm sure called your rest room a wooden shack outside until 20 or 30 years ago !! I'm literally being serious !!!
There probably are some very remote areas that still have "Out Houses". Your use of "Wooden Shack" tell me you weren't here long, if at all.
There was one on our property when we built here. Never had a need to use it, but we rented it's basement to a genius from Detroit. He said it reminded him of home and even painted the inside walls kind of a SMOG WHITE! He didn't stay but about a year. He got behind on his rent cause he couldn't find a job changing tires for $30 an hour. So we put the "Out House" back in use and he eventually left. :P
>"My point is the industrial midwest "rust belt" as many call us has always been more advanced than the south. They farmed in the south and built stuff in the north. That was the way it was....."
More advanced? While the product of your "advanced" area was cars, and UAW workers that didn't care as long as the pay checks kept coming. The early product of the South was mainly food to enable you to continue.
Of course some of you "advanced" souls did attempt farming but poor practices led us to the dust bowl. You raped the land of it's nutrients and couldn't figure how to irrigate. So it was written off as poor land. Yet today massive corn and wheat fields as well as other crops are some of the best in the world. And where did you finally learn to do that?
> "I'm not saying farmers in the south are dumb people and are important to our society"
Do what ? Your "advanced" intelligence lead to a fairly confusing sentence. :confuse:
>"but in many cases they live and still live a sheltered life as I can speak first hand as one who lived and traveled in the south."
The only folks I've known to actually live in the South long enough to get acquainted with it's traditions and values are/were very reluctant to go back up! Don't much think you were here very long.
Yep! A lot of us are sheltered enough to still actually believe in giving a full days work for a full days pay. We believe in negotiating our own destinies. We don't need to have someone else do it for us. We don't seek the shelter of UAW like many of the "advanced" people of your area do.
But wait...! We are working and happy, and living within our means.
Come on and move south. You will find that instead of being resentful of your attitude, we just might say something like. "Glad you finally made it, but we don't care how you did it in Detroit".
The link has a nice puff piece for Toyota. But they don't mention the temporary workers who were let go. If the Big 3 were doing as Toyota is doing they'd be ridiculed by some people. The many comments in the blog after the article are analytical.
I didn't read any of the comments, but I do believe that the UAW wouldn't allow people to be taken off the lines and told to weed the flower beds. I assume they would be put in the jobs bank.
My point was that while they probably COULD lay them off, they fear doing so, as this could ruffle the employees feathers, and open themselves to unionization.
Toyota refuses to lay off workers, but has great flower beds...
"Toyota is struggling to sell trucks and SUVs like everyone else, but unlike the competition, no full-time workers from stalled factories are getting laid off. The 4,500 workers at idled plants are instead bettering themselves through eduction by taking classes on safety, diversity, and Toyota history. They're also doing community service while on the clock and even some gardening. The workers will be learning how to work faster and smarter during the down time, and are even being shifted to busier plants on a temporary basis to help plants that are working beyond capacity to keep up with demand.
Toyota's plan to keep its workers busy at all costs isn't cheap, as about $50 million is being spent to keep workers busy with training programs. Of course, you can't please everyone and the plan isn't sitting well with all of Toyota's workforce, as workers at running factories don't like the fact that laid off workers are getting a leg up on training. A more skilled plant could have an advantage over others in getting earmarked for future products, so unaffected workers also want the extra training.
While expensive and a bit of a logistics nightmare, Toyota's plan is a good one if you can afford it. It should help create a more loyal, better trained workforce that also forges ties with the surrounding community. We bet Toyota hopes it will prevent any talk of unionizing, as well. And with Toyota's record profits over the past few years, $50 million is a drop in the corporate bucket."
dallasdude: Unlike those overseas, our society doesn't tax you as much and therefore we waste.
With higher taxes, it's the government that does most of the wasting.
dallasdude: Most Europeans keep their cars longer and take care of them better.
Many Europeans receive a company car as a benefit, as punitive tax rates make higher salaries much less desirable. Thus, people don't "own" their cars; their employer does. They get to use it for personal reasons as a job-related fringe benefit. People take care of their cars because they have to turn it in to to their employer, which expects to sell it on the used-car market and recoup some of its investment. If you turn in a "trashed" car on a regular basis, that wouldn't make the boss too happy. That has more to do with self-interest than any innate commitment to less consumption.
The European car magazines - particularly the British ones, such as Top Gear - regularly refer to cars (particularly cars larger than the Focus/Golf/Astra) as being desirable for middle management, and will often remark that certain cars are tolerable because the owner isn't really paying for it.
dallasdude: Then too the technical people are trained better too. The auto companies/repair shops invest more in their employees.
This is true.
dallasdude: The social experiments by Saturn (a different kind of car company) didn't pan out as the great management/labor partnership.
That's because, one, GM already had too many divisions at the time, and didn't need another one, and, two, neither GM management (once Roger Smith retired) nor the UAW leadership were really committed to the Saturn experiment.
I had the privilege of speaking with a UAW member who was a leader on the Saturn project. He was an interesting fellow. Let's just say that his "off the record" remarks about both union leaders and GM's top management in regards to how they viewed Saturn wasn't too flattering to either party.
dallasdude: You can bring in all these ideas from overseas, but the America has to buy in.
And who is at fault if Americans refuse to buy into worthwhile ideas? One of Detroit's biggest problems has been the "not invented here" mentality.
dallasdude: The darling of the American business schools is Toyota and the lean mentality.
Which, I'm sure, has nothing to do with its success in providing quality goods to customers and making a big profit while doing it.
GM, well into the 1960s, was studied in business schools as THE example of a successful, modern corporation. In many ways, Alfred P. Sloan invented the modern corporation. Given GM's billion dollar losses and dramatic sales declines, it is doubtful that it is serving as a textbook example of anything except how NOT to run a successful corporation in a competitive environment.
dallasdude: A whole cult of these Six Sigma folks have been trying there hardest to fix companies for years now.
Ford has been aggressively implementing Six Sigma into its production processes. It has also shown the most dramatic improvement in quality among the domestics. By some measurements it is now among the top tier of automobile companies in quality. Perhaps this process DOES work...?
dallasdude: During good times everyone is happy. However, bad times we see the finger pointing and the UAW looks like an easy target to blame all our woes.
And the UAW never does any finger pointing? All of that wailing about currency manipulation (which EVERY country, including the U.S., does), bias in Consumer Reports, and closed Japanese markets (considering that Americans aren't chomping at the bit to buy American cars, one wonders why the Japanese would want them) exists only in my imagination?
By Honda giving the incentives to the dealers and not the car buyer, it keeps the keeps the re-sale value of their cars up. Those $3k and $4k rebates on new cars directly affect the used car market. Part of Honda's business model is to keep resale values up.
The auto industry has used rebates too much that consumers expect it. heck some wait knowing it is a matter of time.
Those scab UAW guys have gone too far this time. Trying to cheat a fellow Union member out of rice for the table. I swear, next they will be makin' beds at the motel 6, knockin' some poor Hotel Union worker out of a job. Just can't trust them UAW guys.
I'm not really a big Toyota fan. I do think they are a smarter company than any of the Big 3. It cannot cost anymore to have people out working on the grounds or being trained than just sitting in a Rubber Room collecting full pay for doing absolutely Nothing. I'm impressed how they are handling the downturn in the market. I would think the employees would be also. I know I would rather work in the garden than collect unemployment.
Don't worry...even the UAW doesn't understand half of its work rules, except one...don't work, then wonder why no one wants to pay you...
Just remember, the market is speaking and speaking loudly it is...they can rah-rah what the union was in the past, and 60 years ago it was necessary, but at one time so were horse-drawn wagons and buggy whips...now, none of those are necessary, and when you talk UAW, detrimental to the health of any company...
Just add up their work rules, their entitlement attitude, their "I only do rear wheels, you can't cross-train me to do front wheels" attitude, the lack of work ethic, the sabotage of the product, the daily thought they want to strike for anything but quality, the 2 year inability to remove lousy workers, the fact that this attitude has been inbred in them so long it is in a new union baby's DNA, and the question pops up...who in their right mind would want to hire anyone who worked for a union in, say, the last 70 years???...answer...NOBODY...that is why Honda won't touch them with a 10 foot pole and they are smart to avoid them...yes, some of them are well trained, no doubt...but since they are almost all descendants of the Southerners who migrated up North half a century ago, why not just go down South where that quality originated, but the union mentality never took root...
Step back and look at it this way...if you look at UAW relations since 1960, all they are is a bunch of militants...who needs rabble rousers who fail to understand that the product is everything???
Give me ONE reason why Honda/Toyota/Kia should set up a plant in Michigan instead of Alabama...THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE TO UAW LABOR, BUT THERE ARE 1000 REASONS AGAINST THEM, AND THAT IS THE LEGACY OF THE UAW IN AMERICAN HISTORY...in 5 years, they will be relegated to the ancient history section of the history books as one of the failed experiments in American business...they offer nothing and take everything...frankly, if I was an employer, if somebody said on an application that their sister in law thru marriage once DATED a UAW member, I would send that applicant packing, because once contaminated, they never get rid of it...
"why not just go down South where that quality originated, but the union mentality never took root..."
Because I refuse to answer my boss with "Yes Massah, anytin youse say"
I will say, that the union MUST take responsibility for their role in the mess that is the Big 3. as our business manager likes to say, "We made this company what it is today".
And it's true!!! For better AND worse, employees of a company do have a direct hand in the success or failure of said company.
What bothers me the most about these jobs moving like they do is that I believe they do nothing for America, except pit one state against another. Even if you accept the premise that the Standard of Living of a Hyundai worker in Alabama is the equivalent of a UAW worker in Michagan.If the Big 3 lay off 3000, and Hyundai hires 3000, then what has America gained????
If COUNTRIES in the EU (by NO means a perfect example) can work together for the betterment of Europe, then why can't WE, with ONE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT, work together for the betterment of ALL 50 STATES. We seem to be deteriorating into 50 little countries, with a lot of infighting and bickering.
ONE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT, work together for the betterment of ALL 50 STATES.
You would have gotten along fine with Alexander Hamilton. He was a Federalist that did not believe the people in the States had enough brains to run there own affairs. 200 years ago when we started producing more than crops this kind of shuffle was going on. The textile industry was trying to get people to leave the farms and work in the cities. What you are asking for is an abolishment of States Rights. The Feds keep trying to take them away. Hopefully we keep a Supreme Court that upholds the Constitution. Do you really want the Feds to come to your state and say we have decided you have the best location oil refineries. So all the oil will come to your state to be refined. All UAW workers can work in the refinery or move to a different state. You will have to fill out all the forms and be approved.
I want less government not more.If it better for the UAW and non Union alike.
I'm not for the abolition of states rights, I want to ensure that there are 50 states to have rights.
What's good for GM is STILL good for America, it's just that having the Big 3, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, VW, etc. ALL producing at full throttle, paying decent wages, and doing it HERE is BETTER for America.
While I think that RI can do better in making us more business friendly, there are some inherent obsticles that are tough to overcome, such as 1 bed apartments going for $750/mo. or modest ranches on postage stamp lots selling for $275,000.
Toyota works because they have leadership, the CEO can only get 7 or 8 times the highest paid employee in compensation. American corporations refuse to follow this Asian rule. Then they also treat employees as family, concern about the employee and his or her family, as well as their education. Basic rules that they follow are not even discussed here in America. If you treat anyone like fecal matter you just aren't going to get anywhere. You can preach about how good the Toyota/Honda folks and only follow the rules which you deem to be worthy (those which won't upset the fat cats) and disregard which ever ones you see fitting. People are people and Asian CEOs aren't or aren't allowed to be as greedy. When unions were strong, no CEO was paid as much as today.
As they say "try thinking out of the box".
"there is no one as blind as he/she who will not turn on the light and or open their eyes"
1 bed apartments going for $750/mo. or modest ranches on postage stamp lots selling for $275,000.
You don't have a lot of real estate to sell. How did RI get to be so small? I think I missed that in US History. Though I am systematically studying now that I am retired. I spent 46 years in Communications myself. Only 9 years at Bell. I was lucky and got out before the divestiture. Most of my old buddies got an early retirement and are living on the fringes. I ended up in Alaska as a Teamster and that was good for me.
I agree that most American corporations are over paying their CEOs. How do you think the UAW or anyone else can change that? Congress did pass a good law after the Enron mess, putting more responsibility on the CEO. They are now accountable for what happens. No more pleading ignorance.
If Congress puts a cap on salaries which I can't imagine them doing. They could also put a cap on yours and my wages. This executive compensation business has been going up since about 1970. The biggest jump was during the Dot.com bubble. CEOs getting enormous blocks of stock equated to millions of dollars in compensation. Companies that were making money had to pay their CEOs more to keep them from taking a higher offer from a competitor. The rest of us were just hanging on to what ever we could get which last time I researched was about 500 times less than the top guys in the major corporations.
It really has little to do with the health of the company or how much they pay the grunts on the ground. As long as the UAW is an obstacle to the Big 3 competing with the imports, they can expect to be a target. My guess is the annihilation of the UAW within 10 years or before. When it gets as bad as it was in the 1930s you may see a resurgence of the Union in automaking. Personally I think the automakers that survive will be smart enough to not let that happen.
You are pretty accurate on your salary assessment. Historically, CEOs made between 15-20 times that of the average worker. That is still the case in much of the world (EU and Japan). However, according to Senator Webb of VA, the average CEO in the USA today makes more than 400x the salary of the average worker. And yes, no accountability. They get their salary (and usually huge bonuses) regardless of the success of the company.
Yes I remember. You have a host of certifications and classes you've taken. Have they made you more marketable/employable?
I would hope so but obviously with the way the economy is it really hasn't helped. Some of my competition has Masters and PhD's and while I might have more overall education and more diverse work experience than many of them they have that piece of paper from a ivy league school.
Give me ONE reason why Honda/Toyota/Kia should set up a plant in Michigan instead of Alabama...THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE TO UAW LABOR, BUT THERE ARE 1000 REASONS AGAINST THEM, AND THAT IS THE LEGACY OF THE UAW IN AMERICAN HISTORY...in 5 years, they will be relegated to the ancient history section of the history books as one of the failed experiments in American business...they offer nothing and take everything...frankly, if I was an employer, if somebody said on an application that their sister in law thru marriage once DATED a UAW member, I would send that applicant packing, because once contaminated, they never get rid of it...
Strong opinions to follow soon...
Can you do us union guys a favor Marsha7, and please buy NON-UNION MADE automobiles from now on because obviously you have the strongest dislike for anything union made !!! I think you'd be a lot more happier in the long run and union folks might not have to hear you rah rah rah !!! aka bash them anymore !!! Get chya a Kia, and be happy !!!
With your strong feelings about the UAW, I cannot imagine how you could buy anything not UAW built. What did your family say when you bought that Acura? Did you feel a bit hypocritical?
I would think that the UAW member would rather have someone rag on how lazy and worthless they are and still buy what they build. If you buy a UAW built car you have the right to give em H--L. At least Bob and I are buying vehicles that put money in the pockets of Americans.
More than likely my next vehicle will be built by BMW in the USA. It is impossible to buy any vehicle that is 100% made in the USA. The higher the US content the better. I don't think of Canadian or Mexican as Made in the USA. Though they are closer neighbors than Japan or Germany.
In an earlier post, someone said the typical American CEO of automobile manufacturers is making hundreds of times what the average wage earner does. Seems they also said the CEOs of foreign owned companies made much, MUCH, less than that.
So if the import folks are making less, including the CEOs, and they are selling tons of cars here, where are their profits going?
R&D for better products, higher quality parts, inovations for future products?
I personally have absolutely no problem or feelings of guilt buying an Import that was built in this country, by American Workers drawing a reasonable salary for the work they do. The fact that the net profits end up overseas is regrettable. However better deserved than in the pocket of a "Fat Cat" that has led his company down the tubes to ruin.
The fact that the net profits end up overseas is regrettable. However better deserved than in the pocket of a "Fat Cat" that has led his company down the tubes to ruin.
Way to sock it to them! Way to go! You are really showing them!
Unfortunately all that money in Japan is going to their folks and their taxes. If you woulda spent it on an american product that fat cat woulda spent it on a new house and probably bought a bunch of other stuff HERE. Fancy that, perhaps they would have helped our economy!
Actually I have nothing against Americans buying whatever they want. Just the logic used is a bit flawed in your case. We are all going down and we are doing it to ourselves.
I've been a proud and vocal Buy American advocate since I purchased my first new car almost 20 years ago (a 1989 Pontiac Sunbird). Although my latest purchase (2006 Impala) is made in Canada, I feel that since the Canadians have the same relative standard of living, the content of the vehicle is mainly US, and the profit comes back here, that I still did the best I could to support our country and its workers.
I'm not a blind to reality union shill-there are many excesses and unrealistic expectations perpetrated by the unions that will be the death of the Detroit 3 if not rectified. The 50's/60's are over, we all have to take more responsibility for our careers, health care and retirement security. But, I don't want to see everything outsourced to China/India either, so I will continue to buy North American made GM vehicles that suit my needs and budget.
My 89 Sunbird was followed by a 1998 Sunfire GT, a 2002 Malibu, and the 2006 Impala. I also own two classic restored Chevys-a 1969 Chevelle convertible and a 1972 Chevelle 4-door sedan. My taste in cars is probably closest to Lemko on this board. I love comfortable 4-door sedans for daily drivers, and for classics, I think the 68-72 GM A-body is the closest thing to perfection that ever came from Detroit.
I've been very happy with all these vehicles, and wouldn't spend my hard-earned money any other way.
It's Thursday and that means time again for the longest running chat here in CarSpace, the Subaru Crew! The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight for another enjoyable evening with members of the Crew! See you there!
If the 2009 Acura TL SH-AWD, were UAW made and I had the finances it would be #1 on my shopping list !!!!
I'd probably wait for the 6-speed Type-S due out next year though !!!
Rocky, I've read hundreds, if not thousands, of your posts over the years & I've noticed a clear pattern: the cars that most interest you are the cars that haven't yet been launched.
For example, you posted frequently in the 2008 Cadillac CTS forum when that car was a year away from production. But as the release date approached, your posts fell off. By the time the new CTS was actually in showrooms, you had stopped posting entirely. You seem to lose all interest in a car once it's actually available in the marketplace. You'd rather talk about future releases.
The CTS is the perfect car for you. It's stylish, fast & union-built. So why haven't you bought one?
"Because I refuse to answer my boss with "Yes Massah, anytin youse say"
I must say, cooter, that the above comment exhibits the same ignorance and naivete of rocky, who thinks we all run around down here in our outhouses, barefoot and pregnant, unable to read...it simply isn't so...
They will train them down here like Big 3 trained them up there, except with better work habits, ingrained simply by not being contaminated by union-think...our workers will be more versatile in the plant as they will be cross-trained like any other intelligent business does with its employees, except the way they run Big 3 up north...
Face the simple truth...what worked after WWII up until the 80s, works no longer...the Big 3 have real competition, often making better vehicles than they do...the union restrictive work rules, which was a ridiculous labor model from Day 1 (but survived because of the profit in automaking back then) works even less now, but the union has yet to figure it out...their model of cross-training is for a worker, who used to install only right front wheels, can now work the left side if that missing worker failed to show up (and you know why they don't show up on Mon and Fri)...
The UAW model is like cell phones from the 1980s, where they used to weigh 4-6 pound, but now down to 4-6 ounces...what worked in the past would have failed under any efficient model of business, but since we were almost alone in the world, it worked by sheer force of lack of competition...give the Big 3 some legitimate competition, and they practically self destruct, showing just how stupid and inefficient the union model was...that Honda and Toy came from nowhere in the 70s and 80s, and are now on the verge of taking the market from GM and Ford...
How can mgmt be so stupid, and how can the union be so stupid???...this was like a train 50 miles away, they had warnings for years, yet they continued to make product that was missing bolts, missing brackets, poorly made (except for lemkos Caddys)...and all rocky can do is rah-rah the same union that made this garbage to start with...rocky, with all your qualifications, you seem to post like the Captain of the Titanic, telling everyone it will all be OK, go back to bed, and when you wake up tomorrow, the bad guys will go away...
The handwriting is no longer on the wall, it is on the forehead of every UAW member, and they STILL cannot figure this out, except to ask which company they will strike tomorrow...
This forum won't let me print what I REALLY think of the sheer stupidity of what the UAW has done, and will continue to do, to automaking...and that fact that others here simply want more unions simply boggles my capitalistic mind, as the union has basically destroyed what was the best capitalistic industry the world has ever seen, the US auto industry...
In an earlier post, someone said the typical American CEO of automobile manufacturers is making hundreds of times what the average wage earner does. Seems they also said the CEOs of foreign owned companies made much, MUCH, less than that.
As a retired teacher, allow me to tell you what this means to me. It means that the average worker must work 400 days (about 13 months) to make the same amount of money the CEO makes for showing up to work on any given day. The average worker's success can be measured at the end of the day - number of cars produced (not addressing quality, just volume). The CEO's success is measured quarterly and annually. You were told how many cars to produce and that can be measured at the end of your shift. While it took you 13 months to make what the CEO made today, let's look at the CEO's success. In one year (actually less than the 13 months), GM lost over 20 BILLION dollars, its stock fell to a 50 year low, and it will now begin the process of closing FOUR factories. At the end of your day you may get a smile for your accomplisments. At the end of GMs CEO year, his success was rewarded with a 54 percent payraise (the equivelant of more than six of your months) for his accomplishments. I would have to wonder how much he should have received if he had just broken even for the year.
But I think it's actually worse than that. These CEO's have been making enormous salaries all along. GM used to own 52 percent of the auto market in the USA. I believe they are now at less than 20 percent. At some point along the way, one would think that perhaps the highly compensated CEOs would have had the insight to ask (or hire their highly paid consultants to figure out) questions such as : why is our market share falling? or what are toyota and honda doing to make people want their cars instead of ours? and the list of questions could continue. And the CEO will continue with his enormous salary while many "worker bees" will lose their jobs for the "success" of the CEO.
But the need to raise more cash is growing, according to a report from Lehman Brother's Brian Johnson. His report says GM needs $7.3 billion in fresh capital to pay its bills through 2009. He predicts GM could burn through $6.9 billion of cash in the second half of 2008 and another $4.4 billion next year. That amount could increase if the U.S. slowdown spills over to the rest of the world.
The average worker and the CEO can watch this one and little can be done about it.
While I think it is appalling the amount of money some CEOs make. It has little bearing on the true health of the company. If the Big 3 UAW contracts all raised their employees by $1 per hour in wages and benefits. It would be right at a $billion per year. That is far more than all the automakers CEOs combined are paid. If they took the CEO pay from the head of GM and gave it to the UAW members it would not amount to 10 cents per hour. If you start looking at it from how much can GM save? Cutting the wages of 200,000 employees amounts to about half a billion dollars for each dollar cut in wages and benefits.
If the UAW workers are really concerned about GM remaining in the USA they need to realize they are not going to be able to make what they used to. I don't see the UAW grasping the gravity of the situation the Big 3 has gotten themselves into.
The average worker and the CEO can watch this one and little can be done about it.
I dont believe this to be the case with a CEO. Just as they have goals for the employee, they should certainly have goals for the organization. I will be a little sarcastic here, but I would guess for the CEO of GM to receive a 54 percent increase in pay for the past year's performance, his goals would have had to look something like this:
GM will not: - lose more than $45 billion - close more than 7 factories in the USA - allow stock values to fall below the low during the Great Depression - terminate more than 75,000 hourly employees
Having surpassed these, and perhaps other lofty goals, the board would indeed justify a 54 percent increase in pay for the CEO.
I say this with a little compassion, however, as a retired educator. We have vigorously complained about the No Child Left Behind Act. An idea composed by Ted Kennedy and George Bush to make americans competitive with the world in education and to make the school system (including myself) accountable for the tax dollars spent on education. In essence, the goals of this act boil down to this:
- by completion of the 12th grade each child will be able to function at the 10th grade level....
"Because I refuse to answer my boss with "Yes Massah, anytin youse say"
When I made that comment, I was referring to the fact that I won't allow my work conditions to degrade to "slave like" and not referring to anyone's mentality.
I absolutely understand overly restrictive work rules will impede progress. If the UAW is that hardass with their rules, then they SHOULD be more fluid, and allow more movement within the assembly plant for properly trained people. That's common sense.
Here in phone company land, they train us extensively for the job we are doing. I work in splice. That means I can install phone service, splice cables together maintain air pressure, work on fiberoptics, etc. What that DOESN"T qualify me to do is set telephone poles, or run the cable. Can they train me to? Sure. But the LAST thing I would tolerate is some pompous manager coming up to me and say "Get on that truck and go set that pole" Without proper training, I could end up killing myself, or someone else. I would NOT want to bear responsibility for dropping a 40 foot pole on your car, killing you, nor would you want that dropped on your head.
We all post extreme examples here to make our points, but lets face it: while there IS room for more compromise on the part of the UAW, there is also room for the UAW at the foreign owned plants. All I would ask is that everybody be left alone: NO badgering by union thugs, NO threats of firings by unscrupulous bosses, just let people make up their minds ON THEIR OWN.
I believe Gagrice said that when work conditions degrade to the point of what they were in the '30's, THEN we may see a union comeback. But WHY,OH WHY should we wait till things get THAT bad to react??? If you think we can't trust the government with something like healthcare than how can we trust the government to do things to protect workers from getting hurt from unsafe practices or just be taken advantage of by their employer.
Toyota "talks" a good game when the say that they need the Big 3 around, but if past practice holds true with American companies, if the Big 3 were in Toyota's shoes, I think they'd hone in for the kill. Would you want them doing that to you???
But WHY,OH WHY should we wait till things get THAT bad to react???
I don't think they will or can with current Federal Labor laws. You do not need the Union to enforce OSHA laws. If you go to the boss and say this or that is unsafe and he fires you for being a pain, you have recourse with the courts. Probably get a few months paid vacation. Most larger companies are smart enough today that they will not let a safety problem get them shut down. I know many safety regulations are a result of labor union lobbyist. That is a good thing. Those laws apply to Union and non-Union companies. Just as your boss would be silly to send you up a pole without proper training. I know I refused and the company backed down. Without the Union even being notified. If the boss told me to sweep the floor for $37 per hour, I would do it without a word.
I got a feeling the imports with plants in the USA are just as safe as the UAW plants. Should the workers in Non-Union plants thank the workers that fought for certain rights over the years? I think they should. Most Union and Non-Union workers today have no idea what the working conditions were like 200 or 100 or even 70 years ago. Some here like to call them sweat shops. Some jobs are a lot harder than others. I have spent all day digging leech lines in hard dirt by hand. I dare say nothing in a modern auto plant today is any harder than that. You go out and use a pick and shovel for 8-10 hours and you know what sweating is. Most of the kids I see today would drop over dead from that kind of labor. My own included. We have made it too easy for this generation. They think a cushy job is a god given right. The UAW is very lucky to have a starting wage of $15 per hour. I think that is overpaid by at least $5.
Unfortunately all that money in Japan is going to their folks and their taxes. If you woulda spent it on an american product that fat cat woulda spent it on a new house and probably bought a bunch of other stuff HERE. Fancy that, perhaps they would have helped our economy!
Then too it stands to reason that most UAW wages would also be spent in a manner which fuels the local/American economy. Just stating the obvious, if we hadn't purchased all those China made goods at Walmart, then China might not have had the disposable income to be the number two consumer of cars, hence they would not be competing with us to put fuel in those cars. Being it that price is the rationing mechanism of fuel. So, now how good were those prices at Walmart? Were they worth it? Are we paying at the pump for that conspicuous consumption?
By MARC MCDONALD CEO pay continues to soar into the stratosphere, while wages for the average American worker stagnate. Forbes magazine reports that the CEOs of America's 500 biggest companies received an aggregate 54 percent pay raise last year. As a group, their total compensation totaled $5.1 billion (compared with $3.3 billion in fiscal 2003).
Conservatives, no doubt, would argue that under America's free market system, these chief executives "earned" their pay. But did they?
Forbes, a publication not exactly considered to be in the progressive camp, seems to think otherwise. The magazine says some CEOs "did so bad they should have paid their shareholders."
Take Peter Cartwright of Calpine, a maker of gas-fired power plants. Forbes reports that Calpine's average annual return to shareholders over the past six years has been minus 7 percent. During the same period, Cartwright pocketed an average annual $13 million.
America's CEOs are by far the highest paid CEOs of any nation on earth. Which begs a question: why?
The U.S. economy isn't exactly stellar at the moment. In fact, an increasing number of commentators warn that America's economy is facing a major crisis.
Our exploding fiscal and trade deficits are the highest that any developed nation has ever seen. America's once-vaunted manufacturing base has been hollowed out. And the dollar continues to crumble in value.
Exploding CEO pay is a relatively recent phenomenon in U.S. history. For example, in the 1960s, the average CEO earned around 40 times what the rank-and-file workers earned. Today the average CEO makes over 500 times what the average worker earns. And the gap continues to widen, year by year.Like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat, conservatives are constantly coming up with reasons to justify soaring CEO pay. Here are three of my favorites:
CEOs create jobs. They create shareholder value. They have supposedly made the U.S. economy the strongest and most competitive in the world.
First of all, let's take a look at jobs. The past few years haven't exactly been a boon to job seekers in the U.S. Fewer and fewer jobs are being created these days. And the jobs that do exist are paying less and offer increasingly meager benefits. And American employees work the longest hours in the industrialized world, as author Juliet Schor pointed out in her book, The Overworked American.
Now, consider the issue of "shareholder value." The past few years haven't exactly been stellar for the stock market. But even the CEOs who preside over companies with sinking share value continue to pocket huge compensation packages.
Last, but not least: let's take a look at America's "competitiveness" these days.
A recurring mantra with America's mainstream and business press is that the U.S. is the most "competitive" economy in the world. A casual look at America's current trade figures, though, explodes this myth.
The fact is, America has the largest trade deficits of any First World nation in history. It seems to me that the U.S. has a difficult time these days creating products that other nations want to buy. Meanwhile, Americans line up to buy products from countries like Germany (which exceeds even China as the world's largest exporter) and Japan---despite the fact that average wages in those two countries are now higher than U.S. wage levels.
If U.S. corporations are really that "competitive" these days, it seems strange to me that America's CEOs seem to have a tough time making ends meet without corporate welfare.
Take Wal-Mart for example. The world's largest corporation (with over $286 billion in annual sales) cost American taxpayers over $1.5 billion in 2004, according to Walmartwatch.com.
If you want to get an idea of how out-of-control soaring CEO pay has gotten, it's important to look at the CEO pay of America's automakers. To me, Detroit sums up many of the major problems that America's economy as a whole faces these days.
Detroit's CEOs have long pocketed by far the highest compensation levels of any auto executives in the world.
This shouldn't really be surprising: American CEOs in general have long raked in vastly higher pay packages than their overseas counterparts. U.S. CEOs make, on average, 22 times what their counterparts make in Japan and 17 times what their counterparts earn in Europe. If pay is somehow tied to performance, then you'd think that America's automakers are the world's most competitive, correct?
If so, you'd be wrong. Detroit, in fact, has been steadily losing market share to foreign automakers for the past five decades. And the blame for this can be laid squarely on the shoulders of Detroit's CEOs, who've made one stupid decision after another for decades. One recent example: Detroit's decision to stake everything on gas-guzzling SUVs, while the Japanese were busy perfecting hybrid technology. (Hybrids are currently by far the auto industry's hottest segment).
Detroit CEOs have long complained that "it's not their fault" and have offered up one excuse after another as to why America's car companies are losing market share. My favorite excuse of theirs is that foreign automakers' workers earn less than their America counterparts (an excuse that the U.S. mainstream and business media has never bothered to challenge).
A quick look at the numbers explodes this lie. The fact is, automaker employees in both Japan and Germany earn higher salaries than U.S. automaker workers do these days. Japan's wages run 30 to 40 percent higher than Detroit's wages. And German automakers workers earn around $49/hour on average versus $39/hour for Detroit's workers.
Although U.S. automaker workers earn less than their foreign counterparts, Detroit CEOs make vastly higher pay packages than their counterparts do in Germany or Japan.
This vast gulf was vividly demonstrated in 1998 when German automaker Daimler-Benz took over U.S. automaker Chrysler. As it turned out, the CEO of Daimler-Benz, Jurgen Schrempp, was earning a pay package that was less than one-tenth of the pay package of Chrysler CEO Robert Eaton.
One might think, given the gigantic pay packages of America's CEOs these days, that being a chief executive is a demanding job. It seems to me that the opposite is true. CEOs seem to do little more these days than [non-permissible content removed] and moan and offer up excuses for their companies' declining fortunes. There are always plenty of handy scapegoats around. Unions. Democrats. "Excessive" red tape and regulations. Lower wages overseas. Ad nauseam.
It seems to me that, far from having a difficult job, America's CEOs actually have one of the easiest jobs in the world these days. When things aren't going well, simply blame others for your mistakes (shades of the Bush White House here). And, if that doesn't work, simply ask for another round
One can not fight efficiencies in manufacturing dd In economics it's called comparative advantage . If you try tariffs or taxes to subjugate it, as has the UAW of yesteryear petitioned congress, it make the home industry inefficient. Sam died.And thusly made in America went out the proverbial window. Wal-mart has long been the protagonist in Ma- Pa Kettle small town disputes. But Americans want a cheaper toaster or hammer. We are paying at the pump for 40 years without an energy policy. We were clued in in the early 70's and 90's but we closed our eyes and are paying the consequences. Let's hope third times a charm. Now as to the quality of chinese comestibles, after seeing what they would do for a 1/10 of a cent. I think I'll pay up.
We do shop at WalMart for specific items and they have the best price. Napa Valley wine, Purina cat food made in St Louis, Pantene shampoo and a few potted flowers or shrubs. Most of our shopping is the local grocery stores or Costco. We buy most of our clothes at a number of thrift shops in San Diego and Hawaii. I would say most of the money we spend stays here in the USA.
The question I have asked of the UAW members here. How many have bought a TV or Stereo made outside the USA? There has to be a lot of UAW shoppers at WalMart with 18 stores in Detroit proper. I got a feeling that back in the 1970s when the USA started bleeding jobs the UAW members did little to stop the flow. They probably bought that fancy Panasonic or Sony TV when RCA and Zenith were still being built here. Now all of a sudden it is their turn and they are whining buy Union built. The UAW workers should be thankful they had about the longest run in the US.
UAW, ok we're on topic now. DD wrote: "It seems to me that, far from having a difficult job, America's CEOs actually have one of the easiest jobs in the world these days. When things aren't going well, simply blame others for your mistakes (shades of the Bush White House here). And, if that doesn't work, simply ask for another round "
Almost makes me ashamed to be a boomer. Greedy, stupid and arrogant they have been. Rather than seeing themselves rightly as they are as hired hands, they saw themselves as owners of the corporation and elected self serving compensation committees. This could not have been done had shareholders not been apathetic. I can hardly blame the UAW for being suspicious on managements behavior ( I'll blame them for other things),from Enron, Tyco, American airlines, United Airlines to all the financials, we have seen management disgrace themselves and their owners as they enriched themselves..Their behavior has been no different than the kid at the 7-11 dipping into the cash register. Sarbanes-Oxley had been a joke as has congressional overseeing and the SEC. The answer will only come from mutual fund and shareholder gadflyism.I wouldn't use Germany as an example though dd, long a socialist environment, with all workers taking absurd holidays, personal days and August off, their country's social security system is actually in worse shape than ours. With amusement I saw they had advertising urging youth to procreate. Ban the pill/condoms I say and good luck.
Btw, who is this person coming in ot, adding nothing pro or con the UAW and then fltting a way with hardly a fine how do you do ? pf flyer wrote: --------------- "It's Thursday and that means time again for the longest running chat here in CarSpace, the Subaru Crew! The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight for another enjoyable evening with members of the Crew! See you there! "
That was suppose to end "ask for another round of corporate welfare" the text got cut off.
Either way, most of the folks here on the UAW forum have the absurd notion the the foreign autoworkers are compensated less than our domestic autoworkers. So they are assuming that the plants transplanting/overseas expansion to America are because of something less than the witness relocation program. I'm not saying that they are here to exploit the cheap labor, however, one might assume that. Hence they may even see comparative advantage and further their motives seeking low income states.
Those going overseas may just be one of China's demands, so as to maintain the status quo. Whereby the high level communist officials and there families control the bulk of the wealth. Since, GM/Huges/Loral committed treason giving rocket technology to communist China, none of this would seem plausible. Add to this the copyright infringements, blatant violations of intellectual property, and a host of other bootlegging activities which aren't even discussed, much less enforced, we have a rouge nation dangling a carrot (one fifth of the Earths future consumers) in front of all of the capitalist with aspirations to tap into this market. The difference between Cuba and China, both communist countries, is that Cuba, as oppressive as they are, are nowhere near China. Let the games begin, and we see that we have been had. The dissidents are in prisons and the INTERNET censored.
"I don't think they will or can with current Federal Labor laws. You do not need the Union to enforce OSHA laws."
I'll grant you that with ONE caveat: Corporations spend billions each year lobbying Congress to do things in THEIR best interest. You or I, or even everybody who has posted on this thread collectively can't lobby Congress. The Teamsters (international) can. The UAW could. IBEW??? Yep. You have to fight fire with fire.
"The UAW is very lucky to have a starting wage of $15 per hour. I think that is overpaid by at least $5."
Fine. I accept that as reasonable. Even if it happened, I don't think that that would invalidate the need for the union's existance.
BTW, I thought you said you'd be buying your last new car shortly. I hope God blesses you with the health and longevity to buy more than just one. Do me a favor though: Make Lemko and I happy and buy a Buick or Caddy like all the other good blue hairs. :P :P :P
Hmmmmm!!! lets see, PF Fliers are a New Balance (American Made) brand. Imagine them competing with child/exploited labor? The movie "Sand Lot" comes to mind.
Those going overseas may just be one of China's demands, so as to maintain the status quo. Whereby the high level communist officials and there families control the bulk of the wealth. Since, GM/Huges/Loral committed treason giving rocket technology to communist China, none of this would seem plausible.
I will make this my last posting as this is a sensitive area for me - my husband happens to have retired from the general area you discussed in rockets. These companies may have transferred rocket and missile (missile as in having a guidance system) technologies and a sensitive supercomputer to the Chinese, however, but they done so under under the auspices of then Secretary of Commerce Ron Brown to promote trade and against the strong objections of the pentagon, but the export restrictions were waived by then Pres Clinton.
The Congressional Record According to reports, on February 6, 1996, a Chinese long march rocket carrying a $200 million Loral satellite, exploded shortly after its launch from a satellite launch center in China. Loral and the Hughes Corporation went to work on an accident review for the
insurance companies who insured that flight and insured the coverage of that loss.
First of all, we need to understand that it is illegal for corporations to transfer this weapons technology and to upgrade rockets, so there was no excuse whatsoever for Hughes and Loral to be going through an accident investigation that was involving only the blow-up of a Chinese rocket, not the malfunction of a satellite system. There should have been no discussions whatsoever.
The Chinese Government, once Loral and Hughes jumped into analyzing what had gone wrong with this launch, the Chinese Government requested a Chinese-born Loral executive named Dr. Wah Lim, to be put in charge of this report. Loral complied with this request, and replaced an experienced American U.S. Air Force colonel who was at that time responsible for the launch security, and they replaced this man, this American military officer at Loral, they replaced him with Dr. Lim, who had been requested by the Communist Chinese. One wonders why that happened. One wonders what justification there could be in that.
In May 1996, the 200-page accident review, this report that dealt with this rocket's performance, was finished and this again had nothing to do with the satellite, it had to do with the explosion of the rocket. This report was unlawfully faxed by Dr. Lim, the man who the Chinese had requested be on this team, this report was faxed to the Communist Chinese themselves without either a State Department or Defense Department approval.
One year later, when the Pentagon completed an assessment of what had happened, an assessment of this report, and Dr. Lim's actions taken to provide this report to the Communist Chinese, our Defense Department concluded, and I quote: `The United States national security has been harmed,' end of quote.
To put that in terms that my colleagues might understand, now millions of Americans live under the threat of being incinerated by a nuclear weapon launched at the United States from China, and made more accurate and made more reliable by our own aerospace industry.
Mr. Speaker, I have spoken with a former security monitor for U.S. space launches overseas who has monitored Loral launches in the former Soviet Union and in China. He claims to have witnessed serious lapses in the security of U.S. satellites and these rocket launches in both countries. In addition, the Cox committee will be looking into reports by the Defense Department officials who were present at Loral's launches in China. We are talking especially about that launch in February of 1996.
The mass of information is somewhat confusing, but to begin with, the report that we are talking about that went to the Communist Chinese, this was supposedly for insurance companies, and the one that of course ended up going directly to the Chinese Communist rocket builders is not just a general assessment. It turns out that that report that was put together by Loral and Hughes engineers, it is not just a road map, it is kind of a blueprint, if you will, for perfecting the Chinese Communist long march rocket system.
That rocket system, before the American intervention, before our experts started talking to the Communist Chinese, had blown up four times in a row. It was one of the world's most unreliable systems. But the suggestions that they were given were so precise that it was not just trying to perfect things and make things better, it was so precise it included such things as make sure, and I will use terms that are not classified terms, turn this widget and replace it with a `thingamabob.' Make sure that the settings on the `what'a-ya-call-it' panel are turned this way. And even a layman like myself, with very little technological background, but even I could read and see that this was a blueprint for improving a Communist Chinese rocket system and had nothing to do with the satellite itself. It was clearly instructions on how to dramatically improve that Communist Chinese rocket system.
And guess what? Think about it. After these meetings and after this report was put in the hands of the Communists, well, guess what? After they got their advice from, their technological advice from their American buddies, this particular Communist Chinese rocket system flew successfully, and has continued to fly successfully. Now it is a reliable rocket system, from the most unreliable in the world to a very reliable system. No more explosions. It is a perfected system. The trouble is, that same system is identical, although it is carrying American satellites now, it is identical to the system that carries nuclear warheads, atomic bombs. The difference between that rocket system and the one that carries the weapons to kill us, the only difference, one is painted a pastel color and is very beautiful and the other may have military painting on it.
Mr. Speaker, I say to my fellow colleagues, this is a severe, a severe breach of American security, and has put our country in jeopardy. We are not just talking about American satellites. Again, when we hear the issue discovered, those people who talk about satellites, are trying to confuse the issue. What we are really talking about is the upgrading of a nuclear weapons delivery system in the hands of the Communist Chinese, a weapons system that is designed to hit American cities and vaporize millions of our own people.
Shame on Loral and any other American company involved in providing this assistance to a potential enemy of the United States of America.
Another aerospace company, Motorola, appears to have been involved in advancing Chinese ballistic missile capabilities as well. In this case, Motorola took a Chinese rocket, not the same one that we are talking about with Loral and Hughes, took a Chinese rocket, called the Chinese long march 2-C rocket and upgraded its capabilities. The long march 2-C was a relatively reliable system, unlike the other one that
we are talking about that Hughes and Loral were dealing with. It had in fact flown 14 times before the Americans came around to use it in order to launch a new generation of communication satellites.
The problem with launching those satellites was that it was a reliable system, but it really was not as capable as Motorola and other companies wanted it to be. In fact, as long as it saved money and did not enhance the Chinese ability to attack its enemies, meaning the United States, it was okay for Loral to use that system, because it was reliable and they had done that on their own, the Chinese had developed that on their own.
What happened was this: In all of the launches of that Chinese long mar
So tell me, if Verizon can offer a bundled package of all 3 services for the same price as Cox, all while paying us TWICE what Cox pays its employees (not to mention Cox hires contractors to do their installs cheaper than their own employees) who's screwing who???? Is Cox screwing it's customers, all the while raking in billions??? Are we screwing Verizon (they DO make billions as well)???? Are Cox employees getting the shaft???
The big companies price the same things differently. As to take advantage of the social-economics of the people who live there. Walmart has different prices at its stores, some within the same city. People in Brazil pay about $4 a month for cell phone service, which is about $40 here in the US. Drugs are higher here and less in Mexico or Canada. Just as they can calculate the benefit of hiring the next marginal employee, they can do so with pricing. It like the Law of Diminishing Returns, but more the Law of Getting the most. They don't want everyone to have one, but the most folks at the highest possible cost/price. Those who have to do without are the only ones who many feel cheated, but thats capitalism.
Comments
There probably are some very remote areas that still have "Out Houses". Your use of "Wooden Shack" tell me you weren't here long, if at all.
There was one on our property when we built here. Never had a need to use it, but we rented it's basement to a genius from Detroit. He said it reminded him of home and even painted the inside walls kind of a SMOG WHITE! He didn't stay but about a year. He got behind on his rent cause he couldn't find a job changing tires for $30 an hour. So we put the "Out House" back in use and he eventually left. :P
>"My point is the industrial midwest "rust belt" as many call us has always been more advanced than the south. They farmed in the south and built stuff in the north. That was the way it was....."
More advanced? While the product of your "advanced" area was cars, and UAW workers that didn't care as long as the pay checks kept coming. The early product of the South was mainly food to enable you to continue.
Of course some of you "advanced" souls did attempt farming but poor practices led us to the dust bowl. You raped the land of it's nutrients and couldn't figure how to irrigate. So it was written off as poor land. Yet today massive corn and wheat fields as well as other crops are some of the best in the world.
And where did you finally learn to do that?
> "I'm not saying farmers in the south are dumb people and are important to our society"
Do what ? Your "advanced" intelligence lead to a fairly confusing sentence. :confuse:
>"but in many cases they live and still live a sheltered life as I can speak first hand as one who lived and traveled in the south."
The only folks I've known to actually live in the South long enough to get acquainted with it's traditions and values are/were very reluctant to go back up! Don't much think you were here very long.
Yep! A lot of us are sheltered enough to still actually believe in giving a full days work for a full days pay. We believe in negotiating our own destinies. We don't need to have someone else do it for us. We don't seek the shelter of UAW like many of the "advanced" people of your area do.
But wait...! We are working and happy, and living within our means.
Come on and move south. You will find that instead of being resentful of your attitude, we just might say something like. "Glad you finally made it, but we don't care how you did it in Detroit".
Kip
In Kentucky, the UAW is learning how to load railcars.
So naturally the Teamsters are picketing. :shades:
(Actually the strike came first but it sounds more ironic my way.)
Teamsters resume picketing at Kentucky Truck
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My point was that while they probably COULD lay them off, they fear doing so, as this could ruffle the employees feathers, and open themselves to unionization.
Toyota refuses to lay off workers, but has great flower beds...
"Toyota is struggling to sell trucks and SUVs like everyone else, but unlike the competition, no full-time workers from stalled factories are getting laid off. The 4,500 workers at idled plants are instead bettering themselves through eduction by taking classes on safety, diversity, and Toyota history. They're also doing community service while on the clock and even some gardening. The workers will be learning how to work faster and smarter during the down time, and are even being shifted to busier plants on a temporary basis to help plants that are working beyond capacity to keep up with demand.
Toyota's plan to keep its workers busy at all costs isn't cheap, as about $50 million is being spent to keep workers busy with training programs. Of course, you can't please everyone and the plan isn't sitting well with all of Toyota's workforce, as workers at running factories don't like the fact that laid off workers are getting a leg up on training. A more skilled plant could have an advantage over others in getting earmarked for future products, so unaffected workers also want the extra training.
While expensive and a bit of a logistics nightmare, Toyota's plan is a good one if you can afford it. It should help create a more loyal, better trained workforce that also forges ties with the surrounding community. We bet Toyota hopes it will prevent any talk of unionizing, as well. And with Toyota's record profits over the past few years, $50 million is a drop in the corporate bucket."
With higher taxes, it's the government that does most of the wasting.
dallasdude: Most Europeans keep their cars longer and take care of them better.
Many Europeans receive a company car as a benefit, as punitive tax rates make higher salaries much less desirable. Thus, people don't "own" their cars; their employer does. They get to use it for personal reasons as a job-related fringe benefit. People take care of their cars because they have to turn it in to to their employer, which expects to sell it on the used-car market and recoup some of its investment. If you turn in a "trashed" car on a regular basis, that wouldn't make the boss too happy. That has more to do with self-interest than any innate commitment to less consumption.
The European car magazines - particularly the British ones, such as Top Gear - regularly refer to cars (particularly cars larger than the Focus/Golf/Astra) as being desirable for middle management, and will often remark that certain cars are tolerable because the owner isn't really paying for it.
dallasdude: Then too the technical people are trained better too. The auto companies/repair shops invest more in their employees.
This is true.
dallasdude: The social experiments by Saturn (a different kind of car company) didn't pan out as the great management/labor partnership.
That's because, one, GM already had too many divisions at the time, and didn't need another one, and, two, neither GM management (once Roger Smith retired) nor the UAW leadership were really committed to the Saturn experiment.
I had the privilege of speaking with a UAW member who was a leader on the Saturn project. He was an interesting fellow. Let's just say that his "off the record" remarks about both union leaders and GM's top management in regards to how they viewed Saturn wasn't too flattering to either party.
dallasdude: You can bring in all these ideas from overseas, but the America has to buy in.
And who is at fault if Americans refuse to buy into worthwhile ideas? One of Detroit's biggest problems has been the "not invented here" mentality.
dallasdude: The darling of the American business schools is Toyota and the lean mentality.
Which, I'm sure, has nothing to do with its success in providing quality goods to customers and making a big profit while doing it.
GM, well into the 1960s, was studied in business schools as THE example of a successful, modern corporation. In many ways, Alfred P. Sloan invented the modern corporation. Given GM's billion dollar losses and dramatic sales declines, it is doubtful that it is serving as a textbook example of anything except how NOT to run a successful corporation in a competitive environment.
dallasdude: A whole cult of these Six Sigma folks have been trying there hardest to fix companies for years now.
Ford has been aggressively implementing Six Sigma into its production processes. It has also shown the most dramatic improvement in quality among the domestics. By some measurements it is now among the top tier of automobile companies in quality. Perhaps this process DOES work...?
dallasdude: During good times everyone is happy. However, bad times we see the finger pointing and the UAW looks like an easy target to blame all our woes.
And the UAW never does any finger pointing? All of that wailing about currency manipulation (which EVERY country, including the U.S., does), bias in Consumer Reports, and closed Japanese markets (considering that Americans aren't chomping at the bit to buy American cars, one wonders why the Japanese would want them) exists only in my imagination?
The auto industry has used rebates too much that consumers expect it. heck some wait knowing it is a matter of time.
I'm not really a big Toyota fan. I do think they are a smarter company than any of the Big 3. It cannot cost anymore to have people out working on the grounds or being trained than just sitting in a Rubber Room collecting full pay for doing absolutely Nothing. I'm impressed how they are handling the downturn in the market. I would think the employees would be also. I know I would rather work in the garden than collect unemployment.
Just remember, the market is speaking and speaking loudly it is...they can rah-rah what the union was in the past, and 60 years ago it was necessary, but at one time so were horse-drawn wagons and buggy whips...now, none of those are necessary, and when you talk UAW, detrimental to the health of any company...
Just add up their work rules, their entitlement attitude, their "I only do rear wheels, you can't cross-train me to do front wheels" attitude, the lack of work ethic, the sabotage of the product, the daily thought they want to strike for anything but quality, the 2 year inability to remove lousy workers, the fact that this attitude has been inbred in them so long it is in a new union baby's DNA, and the question pops up...who in their right mind would want to hire anyone who worked for a union in, say, the last 70 years???...answer...NOBODY...that is why Honda won't touch them with a 10 foot pole and they are smart to avoid them...yes, some of them are well trained, no doubt...but since they are almost all descendants of the Southerners who migrated up North half a century ago, why not just go down South where that quality originated, but the union mentality never took root...
Step back and look at it this way...if you look at UAW relations since 1960, all they are is a bunch of militants...who needs rabble rousers who fail to understand that the product is everything???
Give me ONE reason why Honda/Toyota/Kia should set up a plant in Michigan instead of Alabama...THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE TO UAW LABOR, BUT THERE ARE 1000 REASONS AGAINST THEM, AND THAT IS THE LEGACY OF THE UAW IN AMERICAN HISTORY...in 5 years, they will be relegated to the ancient history section of the history books as one of the failed experiments in American business...they offer nothing and take everything...frankly, if I was an employer, if somebody said on an application that their sister in law thru marriage once DATED a UAW member, I would send that applicant packing, because once contaminated, they never get rid of it...
Strong opinions to follow soon...
Because I refuse to answer my boss with "Yes Massah, anytin youse say"
I will say, that the union MUST take responsibility for their role in the mess that is the Big 3. as our business manager likes to say, "We made this company what it is today".
And it's true!!! For better AND worse, employees of a company do have a direct hand in the success or failure of said company.
What bothers me the most about these jobs moving like they do is that I believe they do nothing for America, except pit one state against another. Even if you accept the premise that the Standard of Living of a Hyundai worker in Alabama is the equivalent of a UAW worker in Michagan.If the Big 3 lay off 3000, and Hyundai hires 3000, then what has America gained????
If COUNTRIES in the EU (by NO means a perfect example) can work together for the betterment of Europe, then why can't WE, with ONE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT, work together for the betterment of ALL 50 STATES. We seem to be deteriorating into 50 little countries, with a lot of infighting and bickering.
You would have gotten along fine with Alexander Hamilton. He was a Federalist that did not believe the people in the States had enough brains to run there own affairs. 200 years ago when we started producing more than crops this kind of shuffle was going on. The textile industry was trying to get people to leave the farms and work in the cities. What you are asking for is an abolishment of States Rights. The Feds keep trying to take them away. Hopefully we keep a Supreme Court that upholds the Constitution. Do you really want the Feds to come to your state and say we have decided you have the best location oil refineries. So all the oil will come to your state to be refined. All UAW workers can work in the refinery or move to a different state. You will have to fill out all the forms and be approved.
I want less government not more.If it better for the UAW and non Union alike.
What's good for GM is STILL good for America, it's just that having the Big 3, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, VW, etc. ALL producing at full throttle, paying decent wages, and doing it HERE is BETTER for America.
While I think that RI can do better in making us more business friendly, there are some inherent obsticles that are tough to overcome, such as 1 bed apartments going for $750/mo. or modest ranches on postage stamp lots selling for $275,000.
As they say "try thinking out of the box".
"there is no one as blind as he/she who will not turn on the light and or open their eyes"
You don't have a lot of real estate to sell. How did RI get to be so small? I think I missed that in US History. Though I am systematically studying now that I am retired. I spent 46 years in Communications myself. Only 9 years at Bell. I was lucky and got out before the divestiture. Most of my old buddies got an early retirement and are living on the fringes. I ended up in Alaska as a Teamster and that was good for me.
I agree that most American corporations are over paying their CEOs. How do you think the UAW or anyone else can change that? Congress did pass a good law after the Enron mess, putting more responsibility on the CEO. They are now accountable for what happens. No more pleading ignorance.
If Congress puts a cap on salaries which I can't imagine them doing. They could also put a cap on yours and my wages. This executive compensation business has been going up since about 1970. The biggest jump was during the Dot.com bubble. CEOs getting enormous blocks of stock equated to millions of dollars in compensation. Companies that were making money had to pay their CEOs more to keep them from taking a higher offer from a competitor. The rest of us were just hanging on to what ever we could get which last time I researched was about 500 times less than the top guys in the major corporations.
It really has little to do with the health of the company or how much they pay the grunts on the ground. As long as the UAW is an obstacle to the Big 3 competing with the imports, they can expect to be a target. My guess is the annihilation of the UAW within 10 years or before. When it gets as bad as it was in the 1930s you may see a resurgence of the Union in automaking. Personally I think the automakers that survive will be smart enough to not let that happen.
I would hope so but obviously with the way the economy is it really hasn't helped. Some of my competition has Masters and PhD's and while I might have more overall education and more diverse work experience than many of them they have that piece of paper from a ivy league school.
-Rocky
Strong opinions to follow soon...
Can you do us union guys a favor Marsha7, and please buy NON-UNION MADE automobiles from now on because obviously you have the strongest dislike for anything union made !!! I think you'd be a lot more happier in the long run and union folks might not have to hear you rah rah rah !!! aka bash them anymore !!!
Get chya a Kia, and be happy !!!
-Rocky
I'd probably wait for the 6-speed Type-S due out next year though !!!
-Rocky
I would think that the UAW member would rather have someone rag on how lazy and worthless they are and still buy what they build. If you buy a UAW built car you have the right to give em H--L. At least Bob and I are buying vehicles that put money in the pockets of Americans.
More than likely my next vehicle will be built by BMW in the USA. It is impossible to buy any vehicle that is 100% made in the USA. The higher the US content the better. I don't think of Canadian or Mexican as Made in the USA. Though they are closer neighbors than Japan or Germany.
So if the import folks are making less, including the CEOs, and they are selling tons of cars here, where are their profits going?
R&D for better products, higher quality parts, inovations for future products?
I personally have absolutely no problem or feelings of guilt buying an Import that was built in this country, by American Workers drawing a reasonable salary for the work they do. The fact that the net profits end up overseas is regrettable. However better deserved than in the pocket of a "Fat Cat" that has led his company down the tubes to ruin.
Kip
Way to sock it to them! Way to go! You are really showing them!
Unfortunately all that money in Japan is going to their folks and their taxes. If you woulda spent it on an american product that fat cat woulda spent it on a new house and probably bought a bunch of other stuff HERE. Fancy that, perhaps they would have helped our economy!
Actually I have nothing against Americans buying whatever they want. Just the logic used is a bit flawed in your case. We are all going down and we are doing it to ourselves.
Not in my reality we're not! We are changing. Simple as that! Do you really think a flawed business model can go on ad infinitum?
This is a good thing...whether it be health care or cars. Painful, yes, if you let it get to you!
Regards,
OW
I'm not a blind to reality union shill-there are many excesses and unrealistic expectations perpetrated by the unions that will be the death of the Detroit 3 if not rectified. The 50's/60's are over, we all have to take more responsibility for our careers, health care and retirement security. But, I don't want to see everything outsourced to China/India either, so I will continue to buy North American made GM vehicles that suit my needs and budget.
My 89 Sunbird was followed by a 1998 Sunfire GT, a 2002 Malibu, and the 2006 Impala. I also own two classic restored Chevys-a 1969 Chevelle convertible and a 1972 Chevelle 4-door sedan. My taste in cars is probably closest to Lemko on this board. I love comfortable 4-door sedans for daily drivers, and for classics, I think the 68-72 GM A-body is the closest thing to perfection that ever came from Detroit.
I've been very happy with all these vehicles, and wouldn't spend my hard-earned money any other way.
See you there!
I'd probably wait for the 6-speed Type-S due out next year though !!!
Rocky, I've read hundreds, if not thousands, of your posts over the years & I've noticed a clear pattern: the cars that most interest you are the cars that haven't yet been launched.
For example, you posted frequently in the 2008 Cadillac CTS forum when that car was a year away from production. But as the release date approached, your posts fell off. By the time the new CTS was actually in showrooms, you had stopped posting entirely. You seem to lose all interest in a car once it's actually available in the marketplace. You'd rather talk about future releases.
The CTS is the perfect car for you. It's stylish, fast & union-built. So why haven't you bought one?
I must say, cooter, that the above comment exhibits the same ignorance and naivete of rocky, who thinks we all run around down here in our outhouses, barefoot and pregnant, unable to read...it simply isn't so...
They will train them down here like Big 3 trained them up there, except with better work habits, ingrained simply by not being contaminated by union-think...our workers will be more versatile in the plant as they will be cross-trained like any other intelligent business does with its employees, except the way they run Big 3 up north...
Face the simple truth...what worked after WWII up until the 80s, works no longer...the Big 3 have real competition, often making better vehicles than they do...the union restrictive work rules, which was a ridiculous labor model from Day 1 (but survived because of the profit in automaking back then) works even less now, but the union has yet to figure it out...their model of cross-training is for a worker, who used to install only right front wheels, can now work the left side if that missing worker failed to show up (and you know why they don't show up on Mon and Fri)...
The UAW model is like cell phones from the 1980s, where they used to weigh 4-6 pound, but now down to 4-6 ounces...what worked in the past would have failed under any efficient model of business, but since we were almost alone in the world, it worked by sheer force of lack of competition...give the Big 3 some legitimate competition, and they practically self destruct, showing just how stupid and inefficient the union model was...that Honda and Toy came from nowhere in the 70s and 80s, and are now on the verge of taking the market from GM and Ford...
How can mgmt be so stupid, and how can the union be so stupid???...this was like a train 50 miles away, they had warnings for years, yet they continued to make product that was missing bolts, missing brackets, poorly made (except for lemkos Caddys)...and all rocky can do is rah-rah the same union that made this garbage to start with...rocky, with all your qualifications, you seem to post like the Captain of the Titanic, telling everyone it will all be OK, go back to bed, and when you wake up tomorrow, the bad guys will go away...
The handwriting is no longer on the wall, it is on the forehead of every UAW member, and they STILL cannot figure this out, except to ask which company they will strike tomorrow...
This forum won't let me print what I REALLY think of the sheer stupidity of what the UAW has done, and will continue to do, to automaking...and that fact that others here simply want more unions simply boggles my capitalistic mind, as the union has basically destroyed what was the best capitalistic industry the world has ever seen, the US auto industry...
Regards,
OW
As a retired teacher, allow me to tell you what this means to me. It means that the average worker must work 400 days (about 13 months) to make the same amount of money the CEO makes for showing up to work on any given day. The average worker's success can be measured at the end of the day - number of cars produced (not addressing quality, just volume). The CEO's success is measured quarterly and annually. You were told how many cars to produce and that can be measured at the end of your shift. While it took you 13 months to make what the CEO made today, let's look at the CEO's success. In one year (actually less than the 13 months), GM lost over 20 BILLION dollars, its stock fell to a 50 year low, and it will now begin the process of closing FOUR factories. At the end of your day you may get a smile for your accomplisments. At the end of GMs CEO year, his success was rewarded with a 54 percent payraise (the equivelant of more than six of your months) for his accomplishments. I would have to wonder how much he should have received if he had just broken even for the year.
But I think it's actually worse than that. These CEO's have been making enormous salaries all along. GM used to own 52 percent of the auto market in the USA. I believe they are now at less than 20 percent. At some point along the way, one would think that perhaps the highly compensated CEOs would have had the insight to ask (or hire their highly paid consultants to figure out) questions such as : why is our market share falling? or what are toyota and honda doing to make people want their cars instead of ours? and the list of questions could continue. And the CEO will continue with his enormous salary while many "worker bees" will lose their jobs for the "success" of the CEO.
But the need to raise more cash is growing, according to a report from Lehman Brother's Brian Johnson. His report says GM needs $7.3 billion in fresh capital to pay its bills through 2009. He predicts GM could burn through $6.9 billion of cash in the second half of 2008 and another $4.4 billion next year. That amount could increase if the U.S. slowdown spills over to the rest of the world.
The average worker and the CEO can watch this one and little can be done about it.
Regards,
OW
If the UAW workers are really concerned about GM remaining in the USA they need to realize they are not going to be able to make what they used to. I don't see the UAW grasping the gravity of the situation the Big 3 has gotten themselves into.
I think RI was the Puritan's version of solitary confinement when the banished Roger Williams in 1636
I dont believe this to be the case with a CEO. Just as they have goals for the employee, they should certainly have goals for the organization. I will be a little sarcastic here, but I would guess for the CEO of GM to receive a 54 percent increase in pay for the past year's performance, his goals would have had to look something like this:
GM will not:
- lose more than $45 billion
- close more than 7 factories in the USA
- allow stock values to fall below the low during the Great Depression
- terminate more than 75,000 hourly employees
Having surpassed these, and perhaps other lofty goals, the board would indeed justify a 54 percent increase in pay for the CEO.
I say this with a little compassion, however, as a retired educator. We have vigorously complained about the No Child Left Behind Act. An idea composed by Ted Kennedy and George Bush to make americans competitive with the world in education and to make the school system (including myself) accountable for the tax dollars spent on education. In essence, the goals of this act boil down to this:
- by completion of the 12th grade each child will be able to function at the 10th grade level....
Shameful, but true.
When I made that comment, I was referring to the fact that I won't allow my work conditions to degrade to "slave like" and not referring to anyone's mentality.
I absolutely understand overly restrictive work rules will impede progress. If the UAW is that hardass with their rules, then they SHOULD be more fluid, and allow more movement within the assembly plant for properly trained people. That's common sense.
Here in phone company land, they train us extensively for the job we are doing. I work in splice. That means I can install phone service, splice cables together maintain air pressure, work on fiberoptics, etc. What that DOESN"T qualify me to do is set telephone poles, or run the cable. Can they train me to? Sure. But the LAST thing I would tolerate is some pompous manager coming up to me and say "Get on that truck and go set that pole" Without proper training, I could end up killing myself, or someone else. I would NOT want to bear responsibility for dropping a 40 foot pole on your car, killing you, nor would you want that dropped on your head.
We all post extreme examples here to make our points, but lets face it: while there IS room for more compromise on the part of the UAW, there is also room for the UAW at the foreign owned plants. All I would ask is that everybody be left alone: NO badgering by union thugs, NO threats of firings by unscrupulous bosses, just let people make up their minds ON THEIR OWN.
I believe Gagrice said that when work conditions degrade to the point of what they were in the '30's, THEN we may see a union comeback. But WHY,OH WHY should we wait till things get THAT bad to react??? If you think we can't trust the government with something like healthcare than how can we trust the government to do things to protect workers from getting hurt from unsafe practices or just be taken advantage of by their employer.
Toyota "talks" a good game when the say that they need the Big 3 around, but if past practice holds true with American companies, if the Big 3 were in Toyota's shoes, I think they'd hone in for the kill. Would you want them doing that to you???
But that 1 Billion $ would do a lot for research and development and would put better quality interiors into the cars, exemplia gratia.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't think they will or can with current Federal Labor laws. You do not need the Union to enforce OSHA laws. If you go to the boss and say this or that is unsafe and he fires you for being a pain, you have recourse with the courts. Probably get a few months paid vacation. Most larger companies are smart enough today that they will not let a safety problem get them shut down. I know many safety regulations are a result of labor union lobbyist. That is a good thing. Those laws apply to Union and non-Union companies. Just as your boss would be silly to send you up a pole without proper training. I know I refused and the company backed down. Without the Union even being notified. If the boss told me to sweep the floor for $37 per hour, I would do it without a word.
I got a feeling the imports with plants in the USA are just as safe as the UAW plants. Should the workers in Non-Union plants thank the workers that fought for certain rights over the years? I think they should. Most Union and Non-Union workers today have no idea what the working conditions were like 200 or 100 or even 70 years ago. Some here like to call them sweat shops. Some jobs are a lot harder than others. I have spent all day digging leech lines in hard dirt by hand. I dare say nothing in a modern auto plant today is any harder than that. You go out and use a pick and shovel for 8-10 hours and you know what sweating is. Most of the kids I see today would drop over dead from that kind of labor. My own included. We have made it too easy for this generation. They think a cushy job is a god given right. The UAW is very lucky to have a starting wage of $15 per hour. I think that is overpaid by at least $5.
Then too it stands to reason that most UAW wages would also be spent in a manner which fuels the local/American economy. Just stating the obvious, if we hadn't purchased all those China made goods at Walmart, then China might not have had the disposable income to be the number two consumer of cars, hence they would not be competing with us to put fuel in those cars. Being it that price is the rationing mechanism of fuel. So, now how good were those prices at Walmart? Were they worth it? Are we paying at the pump for that conspicuous consumption?
CEO pay continues to soar into the stratosphere, while wages for the average American worker stagnate.
Forbes magazine reports that the CEOs of America's 500 biggest companies received an aggregate 54 percent pay raise last year. As a group, their total compensation totaled $5.1 billion (compared with $3.3 billion in fiscal 2003).
Conservatives, no doubt, would argue that under America's free market system, these chief executives "earned" their pay. But did they?
Forbes, a publication not exactly considered to be in the progressive camp, seems to think otherwise.
The magazine says some CEOs "did so bad they should have paid their shareholders."
Take Peter Cartwright of Calpine, a maker of gas-fired power plants. Forbes reports that Calpine's average annual return to shareholders over the past six years has been minus 7 percent. During the same period, Cartwright pocketed an average annual $13 million.
America's CEOs are by far the highest paid CEOs of any nation on earth. Which begs a question: why?
The U.S. economy isn't exactly stellar at the moment. In fact, an increasing number of commentators warn that America's economy is facing a major crisis.
Our exploding fiscal and trade deficits are the highest that any developed nation has ever seen. America's once-vaunted manufacturing base has been hollowed out. And the dollar continues to crumble in value.
Exploding CEO pay is a relatively recent phenomenon in U.S. history. For example, in the 1960s, the average CEO earned around 40 times what the rank-and-file workers earned. Today the average CEO makes over 500 times what the average worker earns. And the gap continues to widen, year by year.Like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat, conservatives are constantly coming up with reasons to justify soaring CEO pay. Here are three of my favorites:
CEOs create jobs. They create shareholder value. They have supposedly made the U.S. economy the strongest and most competitive in the world.
First of all, let's take a look at jobs. The past few years haven't exactly been a boon to job seekers in the U.S. Fewer and fewer jobs are being created these days. And the jobs that do exist are paying less and offer increasingly meager benefits. And American employees work the longest hours in the industrialized world, as author Juliet Schor pointed out in her book, The Overworked American.
Now, consider the issue of "shareholder value." The past few years haven't exactly been stellar for the stock market. But even the CEOs who preside over companies with sinking share value continue to pocket huge compensation packages.
Last, but not least: let's take a look at America's "competitiveness" these days.
A recurring mantra with America's mainstream and business press is that the U.S. is the most "competitive" economy in the world. A casual look at America's current trade figures, though, explodes this myth.
The fact is, America has the largest trade deficits of any First World nation in history. It seems to me that the U.S. has a difficult time these days creating products that other nations want to buy. Meanwhile, Americans line up to buy products from countries like Germany (which exceeds even China as the world's largest exporter) and Japan---despite the fact that average wages in those two countries are now higher than U.S. wage levels.
If U.S. corporations are really that "competitive" these days, it seems strange to me that America's CEOs seem to have a tough time making ends meet without corporate welfare.
Take Wal-Mart for example. The world's largest corporation (with over $286 billion in annual sales) cost American taxpayers over $1.5 billion in 2004, according to Walmartwatch.com.
If you want to get an idea of how out-of-control soaring CEO pay has gotten, it's important to look at the CEO pay of America's automakers. To me, Detroit sums up many of the major problems that America's economy as a whole faces these days.
Detroit's CEOs have long pocketed by far the highest compensation levels of any auto executives in the world.
This shouldn't really be surprising: American CEOs in general have long raked in vastly higher pay packages than their overseas counterparts. U.S. CEOs make, on average, 22 times what their counterparts make in Japan and 17 times what their counterparts earn in Europe.
If pay is somehow tied to performance, then you'd think that America's automakers are the world's most competitive, correct?
If so, you'd be wrong. Detroit, in fact, has been steadily losing market share to foreign automakers for the past five decades. And the blame for this can be laid squarely on the shoulders of Detroit's CEOs, who've made one stupid decision after another for decades. One recent example: Detroit's decision to stake everything on gas-guzzling SUVs, while the Japanese were busy perfecting hybrid technology. (Hybrids are currently by far the auto industry's hottest segment).
Detroit CEOs have long complained that "it's not their fault" and have offered up one excuse after another as to why America's car companies are losing market share. My favorite excuse of theirs is that foreign automakers' workers earn less than their America counterparts (an excuse that the U.S. mainstream and business media has never bothered to challenge).
A quick look at the numbers explodes this lie. The fact is, automaker employees in both Japan and Germany earn higher salaries than U.S. automaker workers do these days. Japan's wages run 30 to 40 percent higher than Detroit's wages. And German automakers workers earn around $49/hour on average versus $39/hour for Detroit's workers.
Although U.S. automaker workers earn less than their foreign counterparts, Detroit CEOs make vastly higher pay packages than their counterparts do in Germany or Japan.
This vast gulf was vividly demonstrated in 1998 when German automaker Daimler-Benz took over U.S. automaker Chrysler. As it turned out, the CEO of Daimler-Benz, Jurgen Schrempp, was earning a pay package that was less than one-tenth of the pay package of Chrysler CEO Robert Eaton.
One might think, given the gigantic pay packages of America's CEOs these days, that being a chief executive is a demanding job. It seems to me that the opposite is true. CEOs seem to do little more these days than [non-permissible content removed] and moan and offer up excuses for their companies' declining fortunes. There are always plenty of handy scapegoats around. Unions. Democrats. "Excessive" red tape and regulations. Lower wages overseas. Ad nauseam.
It seems to me that, far from having a difficult job, America's CEOs actually have one of the easiest jobs in the world these days. When things aren't going well, simply blame others for your mistakes (shades of the Bush White House here). And, if that doesn't work, simply ask for another round
We do shop at WalMart for specific items and they have the best price. Napa Valley wine, Purina cat food made in St Louis, Pantene shampoo and a few potted flowers or shrubs. Most of our shopping is the local grocery stores or Costco. We buy most of our clothes at a number of thrift shops in San Diego and Hawaii. I would say most of the money we spend stays here in the USA.
The question I have asked of the UAW members here. How many have bought a TV or Stereo made outside the USA? There has to be a lot of UAW shoppers at WalMart with 18 stores in Detroit proper. I got a feeling that back in the 1970s when the USA started bleeding jobs the UAW members did little to stop the flow. They probably bought that fancy Panasonic or Sony TV when RCA and Zenith were still being built here. Now all of a sudden it is their turn and they are whining buy Union built. The UAW workers should be thankful they had about the longest run in the US.
Because they can get the money.
DD wrote:
"It seems to me that, far from having a difficult job, America's CEOs actually have one of the easiest jobs in the world these days. When things aren't going well, simply blame others for your mistakes (shades of the Bush White House here). And, if that doesn't work, simply ask for another round "
Almost makes me ashamed to be a boomer. Greedy, stupid and arrogant they have been. Rather than seeing themselves rightly as they are as hired hands, they saw themselves as owners of the corporation and elected self serving compensation committees. This could not have been done had shareholders not been apathetic. I can hardly blame the UAW for being suspicious on managements behavior ( I'll blame them for other things),from Enron, Tyco, American airlines, United Airlines to all the financials, we have seen management disgrace themselves and their owners as they enriched themselves..Their behavior has been no different than the kid at the 7-11 dipping into the cash register. Sarbanes-Oxley had been a joke as has congressional overseeing and the SEC. The answer will only come from mutual fund and shareholder gadflyism.I wouldn't use Germany as an example though dd, long a socialist environment, with all workers taking absurd holidays, personal days and August off, their country's social security system is actually in worse shape than ours. With amusement I saw they had advertising urging youth to procreate. Ban the pill/condoms I say and good luck.
pf flyer wrote:
---------------
"It's Thursday and that means time again for the longest running chat here in CarSpace, the Subaru Crew! The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight for another enjoyable evening with members of the Crew!
See you there! "
Back to UAW por favor.
Either way, most of the folks here on the UAW forum have the absurd notion the the foreign autoworkers are compensated less than our domestic autoworkers. So they are assuming that the plants transplanting/overseas expansion to America are because of something less than the witness relocation program. I'm not saying that they are here to exploit the cheap labor, however, one might assume that. Hence they may even see comparative advantage and further their motives seeking low income states.
Those going overseas may just be one of China's demands, so as to maintain the status quo. Whereby the high level communist officials and there families control the bulk of the wealth. Since, GM/Huges/Loral committed treason giving rocket technology to communist China, none of this would seem plausible. Add to this the copyright infringements, blatant violations of intellectual property, and a host of other bootlegging activities which aren't even discussed, much less enforced, we have a rouge nation dangling a carrot (one fifth of the Earths future consumers) in front of all of the capitalist with aspirations to tap into this market. The difference between Cuba and China, both communist countries, is that Cuba, as oppressive as they are, are nowhere near China. Let the games begin, and we see that we have been had. The dissidents are in prisons and the INTERNET censored.
I'll grant you that with ONE caveat: Corporations spend billions each year lobbying Congress to do things in THEIR best interest. You or I, or even everybody who has posted on this thread collectively can't lobby Congress. The Teamsters (international) can. The UAW could. IBEW??? Yep. You have to fight fire with fire.
"The UAW is very lucky to have a starting wage of $15 per hour. I think that is overpaid by at least $5."
Fine. I accept that as reasonable. Even if it happened, I don't think that that would invalidate the need for the union's existance.
BTW, I thought you said you'd be buying your last new car shortly. I hope God blesses you with the health and longevity to buy more than just one. Do me a favor though: Make Lemko and I happy and buy a Buick or Caddy like all the other good blue hairs. :P :P :P
I will make this my last posting as this is a sensitive area for me - my husband happens to have retired from the general area you discussed in rockets. These companies may have transferred rocket and missile (missile as in having a guidance system) technologies and a sensitive supercomputer to the Chinese, however, but they done so under under the auspices of then Secretary of Commerce Ron Brown to promote trade and against the strong objections of the pentagon, but the export restrictions were waived by then Pres Clinton.
I enjoyed the chats and wish you all the best.
According to reports, on February 6, 1996, a Chinese long march rocket carrying a $200 million Loral satellite, exploded shortly after its launch from a satellite launch center in China. Loral and the Hughes Corporation went to work on an accident review for the
insurance companies who insured that flight and insured the coverage of that loss.
First of all, we need to understand that it is illegal for corporations to transfer this weapons technology and to upgrade rockets, so there was no excuse whatsoever for Hughes and Loral to be going through an accident investigation that was involving only the blow-up of a Chinese rocket, not the malfunction of a satellite system. There should have been no discussions whatsoever.
The Chinese Government, once Loral and Hughes jumped into analyzing what had gone wrong with this launch, the Chinese Government requested a Chinese-born Loral executive named Dr. Wah Lim, to be put in charge of this report. Loral complied with this request, and replaced an experienced American U.S. Air Force colonel who was at that time responsible for the launch security, and they replaced this man, this American military officer at Loral, they replaced him with Dr. Lim, who had been requested by the Communist Chinese. One wonders why that happened. One wonders what justification there could be in that.
In May 1996, the 200-page accident review, this report that dealt with this rocket's performance, was finished and this again had nothing to do with the satellite, it had to do with the explosion of the rocket. This report was unlawfully faxed by Dr. Lim, the man who the Chinese had requested be on this team, this report was faxed to the Communist Chinese themselves without either a State Department or Defense Department approval.
One year later, when the Pentagon completed an assessment of what had happened, an assessment of this report, and Dr. Lim's actions taken to provide this report to the Communist Chinese, our Defense Department concluded, and I quote: `The United States national security has been harmed,' end of quote.
To put that in terms that my colleagues might understand, now millions of Americans live under the threat of being incinerated by a nuclear weapon launched at the United States from China, and made more accurate and made more reliable by our own aerospace industry.
Mr. Speaker, I have spoken with a former security monitor for U.S. space launches overseas who has monitored Loral launches in the former Soviet Union and in China. He claims to have witnessed serious lapses in the security of U.S. satellites and these rocket launches in both countries. In addition, the Cox committee will be looking into reports by the Defense Department officials who were present at Loral's launches in China. We are talking especially about that launch in February of 1996.
The mass of information is somewhat confusing, but to begin with, the report that we are talking about that went to the Communist Chinese, this was supposedly for insurance companies, and the one that of course ended up going directly to the Chinese Communist rocket builders is not just a general assessment. It turns out that that report that was put together by Loral and Hughes engineers, it is not just a road map, it is kind of a blueprint, if you will, for perfecting the Chinese Communist long march rocket system.
That rocket system, before the American intervention, before our experts started talking to the Communist Chinese, had blown up four times in a row. It was one of the world's most unreliable systems. But the suggestions that they were given were so precise that it was not just trying to perfect things and make things better, it was so precise it included such things as make sure, and I will use terms that are not classified terms, turn this widget and replace it with a `thingamabob.' Make sure that the settings on the `what'a-ya-call-it' panel are turned this way. And even a layman like myself, with very little technological background, but even I could read and see that this was a blueprint for improving a Communist Chinese rocket system and had nothing to do with the satellite itself. It was clearly instructions on how to dramatically improve that Communist Chinese rocket system.
And guess what? Think about it. After these meetings and after this report was put in the hands of the Communists, well, guess what? After they got their advice from, their technological advice from their American buddies, this particular Communist Chinese rocket system flew successfully, and has continued to fly successfully. Now it is a reliable rocket system, from the most unreliable in the world to a very reliable system. No more explosions. It is a perfected system. The trouble is, that same system is identical, although it is carrying American satellites now, it is identical to the system that carries nuclear warheads, atomic bombs. The difference between that rocket system and the one that carries the weapons to kill us, the only difference, one is painted a pastel color and is very beautiful and the other may have military painting on it.
Mr. Speaker, I say to my fellow colleagues, this is a severe, a severe breach of American security, and has put our country in jeopardy. We are not just talking about American satellites. Again, when we hear the issue discovered, those people who talk about satellites, are trying to confuse the issue. What we are really talking about is the upgrading of a nuclear weapons delivery system in the hands of the Communist Chinese, a weapons system that is designed to hit American cities and vaporize millions of our own people.
Shame on Loral and any other American company involved in providing this assistance to a potential enemy of the United States of America.
Another aerospace company, Motorola, appears to have been involved in advancing Chinese ballistic missile capabilities as well. In this case, Motorola took a Chinese rocket, not the same one that we are talking about with Loral and Hughes, took a Chinese rocket, called the Chinese long march 2-C rocket and upgraded its capabilities. The long march 2-C was a relatively reliable system, unlike the other one that
we are talking about that Hughes and Loral were dealing with. It had in fact flown 14 times before the Americans came around to use it in order to launch a new generation of communication satellites.
The problem with launching those satellites was that it was a reliable system, but it really was not as capable as Motorola and other companies wanted it to be. In fact, as long as it saved money and did not enhance the Chinese ability to attack its enemies, meaning the United States, it was okay for Loral to use that system, because it was reliable and they had done that on their own, the Chinese had developed that on their own.
What happened was this: In all of the launches of that Chinese long mar
The big companies price the same things differently. As to take advantage of the social-economics of the people who live there. Walmart has different prices at its stores, some within the same city. People in Brazil pay about $4 a month for cell phone service, which is about $40 here in the US. Drugs are higher here and less in Mexico or Canada. Just as they can calculate the benefit of hiring the next marginal employee, they can do so with pricing. It like the Law of Diminishing Returns, but more the Law of Getting the most. They don't want everyone to have one, but the most folks at the highest possible cost/price. Those who have to do without are the only ones who many feel cheated, but thats capitalism.