Ya know, I bet WE could solve the woes of the auto industry and the UAW in our weekly chats
If you can find the time, hang out with us for a bit tonight. MUCH less stressful than discussions like this!
Tuesday means Mazda chat night! Mazda ownership is not a requirement! Just bring yourself and your love of cars and the desire to discuss anything and everything automotive and you're good to go!
The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight to meet and greet with your fellow CarSpace members! See you there!
"Ah yes, a sample size of one. They must all be idiots"...your criticism is valid...I did not mean that they all acted like that (altho maybe they did...:):):)...)...but the sheer immaturity of an adult afraid to look at a competitors product was, to me, beyond the pale...
Considering how at the Detroit Auto Show, in the import exhibits (Honda and Toy and Datsun/Nissan, not the German or British) they used to slash upholstery, break steering wheels, destroy dashboards and key paint jobs, I would certainly suspect UAW people and the fact that the cars were almost destroyed (like after a week sitting on the highway in NYC), the childish behavior was appalling...
Yes, while the "survey" is hardly scientific, the behavior of Detroiters at the Auto Show only backs up what I saw...
While I do not know if that is done today, it was amazing what I saw back then...by Day 5, out of 6 or 7, the Japanese cars were damaged to the point that an insurance company might total it...you had to see it to believe it, and I did see it...
Knives and screwdrivers taken to dashboards, broken steering wheels (you know how hard it is to break a steering wheel?), over half of the paint removed thru keying, etc.
Some wouldn't look, the others acted like destroying the sample would make them go away...you really must deal with these people to understand their lack of intelligence, maturity, and concern for others property...that is part of my lack of respect for the UAW...fortunately, the market is taking care of the problem, as they won't be around for long...and, will anybody hire them for ANYTHING in the future???...rocky thinks they are a well trained workforce..once those work restrictions disappear as the union dies, nobody in their right mind would hire anyone who worked for the UAW...you MIGHT have a better chance to re-educate a 3rd generation welfare recipient than to get that entitlement attitude out of a UAW worker, or their family, or anyone they drove past on the freeway at 65 mph...
That is my position as well. I would prefer that the vehicles I buy are Made in the USA. Both union and non-union workers need to eat and have a place to sleep. I don't consider one American any more deserving than another, just because a person had someone get them into the UAW when they got out of High School.
Fine if that's your position. Believe it or not most UAW employees did something before landing a job with the UAW-Big 3. My father served his country via U.S. Navy.
There is NO evidence that any part of the USA produces better workers than any other.
I will respectfully disagree with you as their is evidence the worker bee's from the midwest will out work any other bee in the country. Those aren't my words but the words from various employers. One of the reasons I was hired at Pantex, I was told because of my midwestern work ethic as I'd show up on time and do my job. We as a culture are use to longer hours than most folks. The people in the south believe you need to be home for their sons soccer game and whether right or wrong (which I believe is right and agree w/ southerners btw) we give up our families for our employers schedules. Again those aren't my words but words from my, family, friends, former employers. I will use a quote from Hilmar Cheese Company's plant manager in Dalhart, Tx. "You can sure tell a difference in work ethic and speed of employees from California and here" Obviously Californians, work quite a bit harder, faster, complain less, than Texans. Hilmar, is HQ out of California.
With all your anti-union, anti-big 3, rah, rah, rah, rahing, you fail to look at the facts, ya know the evidence that the big 3 especially GM & Ford are building quality automobiles and is at the top in the quality survey's. I dare you to go drive a new Malibu, and find fault with it !!!! My best friend Beth, owns a 2008 Malibu LT 2, and it is one bad-[non-permissible content removed] mammar-jammar !!!!! :shades:
62vetteefp, I, lemko, imidazol97, dallasdude1, 1487, have posted facts to support our case !!! We have the trophy's and plaques, on display thus I'm not so sure if we are the ones that actually have our heads buried in the sand !!! :P
Everyone makes a lemon from time to time. I've had one bad Ford. A '98 SVT Contour.
Yours must have been built on a Monday or Friday. I was the original owner of a '98 Mercury Mystique. It was built on the same assembly line in Kansas City as the Contour SVT.
Mine was fairly reliable and I kept it for 141,000 miles and just 2 months shy of 10 years. I traded it last September on a Sebring Limited, which I hope to have another long and happy relationship with.
The Contour/Mystique did have a few mostly minor quirks that most owners could fix themselves if they had the right resources. The Contour Enthusiasts Group has a very active forum full of tips and how-tos on keeping these cars operating in top condition. I still visit there often even though I no longer own the car.
Can hardly compare Cadillac and Buick to Honda and toyota because of sale totals which is why it is better to compare Chevy with Honda and toyota and Ford. if you want to compare Caddy with lexus and Acura, then I can go for that.
The Freestar was discontinued a couple of years ago but heck the Buick Century counted in last year's JD Powers calculations so..... Freestyle is now Taurus X..I think. Nice vehicle, too bad it main competitor is other Ford products like the Explorer, Flex and Edge.
"62vetteefp, I, lemko, imidazol97, dallasdude1, 1487, have posted facts to support our case !!!"
I am certainly glad they are happy with their cars...the only evidence I need to cite is simply the decreasing market share of the Big 3 over the last 20-plus years...
It's like a restaurant...a small core of loyalists may keep it alive for a time...but if new customers keep patronizing other eateries, that small core of loyalists will watch their favorite restaurant close down...
The folks listed above are great folks...but, as you may have noticed, millions of buyers have changed over to Toy and Hon, and not too many of them have been burned by the imports, compared to Big 3 folks...
The simple lost market share of the Big 3 certainly DISPROVES your case, because they are selling fewer cars to fewer people as the years go by...the group of loyalists above, truly proves nothing...
Listen to the gagrices and others who are just as numerous with very legitimate complaints about Big 3 products...they are speaking about the problems that the other millions had with Big 3 products and deserted Big 3 for the imports...
Plus, simple math...Big 3 closing plants while imports build them...so the market for cars is there, but the market for Big 3 cars is evaporating...your argument fails...better luck next time... :P
I will respectfully disagree with you as their is evidence the worker bee's from the midwest will out work any other bee in the country.
Why are the B3 closing plants in the Midwest? If that was true, why did many factories in the Midwest move to the South in the 1960s and 70s? They did not all move to get more sunshine. Maybe a few that moved to Florida for the Sun. It is a complex issue of political maneuvering. If you don't think companies like VW do a lot of research before building a $Billion plant in TN, you are not being realistic.
How many of the people in the Hilmar Cheese factory are legal? Illegals are some of the BEST employees. They take a lot of crap and work hard. Did you see that 600 more got busted in Mississippi this afternoon?
And as long as we are on Unions. What about the Union in Alabama that wanted to eliminate Labor day and replace it with an Islamic Holiday? That was from your buddy Bill Clinton's NUMBER ONE MAN TYSON.
The change, which does not affect the company's 118 other plants, exchanges Labor Day for the Muslim holiday that marks the end of Ramadan. The new contract, negotiated last fall, also gives Muslim workers a prayer room.
"Eid al-Fitr is one of eight paid holidays for all team members covered by the contract, while Labor Day is not a paid holiday," Gary Mickelson, Tyson's media relations director, told the Shelbyville Times-Gazette.
Rocky: >"62vetteefp, I, lemko, imidazol97, dallasdude1, 1487, have posted facts to support our case !!! We have the trophy's and plaques, on display thus I'm not so sure if we are the ones that actually have our heads buried in the sand !!! "
Plaques and trophies don't mean as much as they have in the past. Not unusual these days to find the average child with plaques and trophies in their room. They got them for simply being on a team. Even if the team never won a game, or that child never played a game.
Initial Quality Awards don't mean much if the "Lasting Quality" is not there!
lemko: >"I don't know if higher pay always attracts the best people, but it certainly enables you to keep them. Pay them too low, and many won't even bother showing up."
Very true ! But we need to realize that many folks with an "Entitled" attitude don't show up or do as little as possible, even though the pay is very good, and many times higher than other similar jobs.
Don't you agree that employers need to have the ability to deal with the dead beats, to keep the work force strong, and deliver a timely, quality product ?
Slackers that constantly get away with it are bad for the morale and (consequential) attitudes of the other employees. They do as little as possible, knowing that it is next to impossible for the employer to deal with them, because the entire plant might "Strike". Then according to the "Contract" they get the same raises, promotions when it is their time, and bennefits as those that truly wanted to do a good job. Sadly, over a period of time, the hard workers give up and simply do a so-so job, because their fate is sealed by contracts.
UAW and other Unions need to realize this is killing the companies, so the companies are forced to go where they can get some relief or they will simply go away.
(you know how hard it is to break a steering wheel?)
Probably not that hard if you put your mind to it, especially on a 70's or 80's Japanese car. :P
**Edit...just so that comment doesn't stir up too much controversy, let me confess that I had a steering column break once, on a 1979 Chrysler Newport! Although in its defense, this was in late 1997, and the car had about 240,000 miles on it. :shades:
rockylee: I will respectfully disagree with you as their is evidence the worker bee's from the midwest will out work any other bee in the country.
Considering that Toyota and Honda can produce the same number of vehicles with fewer workers than a comparable GM, Ford or Chrysler plant (although this gap has closed considerably in recent years), and that the daily absentee rate at domestic plants has run about 10-12 percent, versus 1-2 percent at the transplant operations, I would say that the evidence is to the contrary.
Awards don't mean much if the "Lasting Quality" is not there!
My Buick Park Avenue and Cadillac Brougham are going on 21 and 20 years. Tell me that isn't "lasting quality?" I see lots of lasting American quality at many old car show events. Where are all the Hondas, Toyotas, and Datsuns? Or there are 1 or 2 here and there, but most of 'em went back to Mother Nature over 15-20 years ago.
...that if Japan, Inc. managed to drive the Big Three out of business and smashed the UAW, they'd simply pack up their plants and head back to Japan or start paying their workers Wal~Mart wages and working them under Wal~Mart-like conditions since there was nobody left to keep them from doing so?
Ah yes, a sample size of one. They must all be idiots.
Just like those who base their opinions on one vehicle or the comments of a few others. Scientifically derived data cannot be right if they are on the wrong side of the data.
While you are at it, include people who base their opinions on a lifetime of domestic vehicles and switch to foreign made products. They are true simpletons who have no scientific proof that GM, Ford and Chrysler make the best cars. I qualify. :surprise:
The fact is that the world does not revolve around the Detroit Three since a long time ago. The world got better and we lost it. We are scrabbling now but the game changed and we were surprised. Arrogance and Greed be damned.
Management, UAW, Dealers all involved...it's not a finger pointing game. It happened and change is clearing the board now.
I do not think that the Japanese would do any such thing. They have a large investment here in the USA. They know that if they started cutting wages and benefits the workers would find a Union to represent them. I know the Teamsters would be happy to represent any group of workers. I think the Japanese are happy with their plants in the USA. They had very repressive government and Union contracts to deal with at home.
Lemko, you keep mentioning about never seeing old Honda, Toyota, etc. I see them all the time here in Central PA. Just like I see older GM, Ford and Chrysler.
for all those who are driving 20 year old Big 3 cars, that means that they are not buying current Big 3 either, putting $$$ in their pockets LATELY...so that means that GM may go down in flames and it is all lemko's fault because he is still driving that old Buick from 20 years ago, rather than spending money to support the UAW now... :P
I guess I'm not doing the UAW much good either, since I've only bought one new car in my lifetime...the Intrepid. Everything else has been used. In some cases, VERY used, as I've had cars older than me! :shades:
I do not think that the Japanese would do any such thing. They have a large investment here in the USA.
While I have no real data to back it up I disagree. Toyota still, after 40 years, imports 50% of their vehicles to the US. They started to import when they started getting hammered for not building here and they were concerned about duties and such.
If they did start cutting plants they would not care about the employees starting unions because the plants would be close. On factor that would keep them here though is if the big 3 did go away the imports would need the plant capacity here to meet demand.
Just read an article in the paper today. The southern states seem to have close to 20% poverty rates. I doubt very much that the workers will complain about much in those states when making good money.
Here is a study on vehicle longevity from Canada - unfortunately, it's from 2002, but I think that the information is still interesting and relevant. Lemko - this report attempts to explain why your cars are still on the road.
Currency manipulation, government subsidizes, trade barriers, had nothing at all to do with the Japanese automobile manufactors success. I know Marsha7, you haven't been a long-time poster but in the past their was posted articles from I and others that showed just how much of a cost advantage in currency manipulation the japanese enjoy vs. the big 3 !!! In some cases it was as much as $13,000. I think Rocky, isn't the only one who has his head buried in the sand and it just amazes me how GM, was able to make a superior automobile like the Malibu, with such limited resources and a huge disadvantage !!! :P
gagrice, your such a darn thorn in my side at times !!!! :P I agree it's B.S. regarding the labor day deal and you and I strongly agree on the 600 illegal aliens. The workforce at the Cheese Factory is non-union, but I hear they treat their people pretty good but the employees don't believe in working hard.
Your generalization of what you think you know about unions is just plain amazing !!! The slackers are usually dealt with by the co-workers and in some cases a threat of a serious beating for making everyone look bad becomes a verbal warning from steward to slacker employee. In a non-union company a slacker can do little work by being a brown noser aka tattle tale. There are ways to correct the slackers. It might take some time but it's that way almost everywhere. My last job people that were fired were threating the company with racial lawsuits, sexual harrassment suits, etc, and some are going through with it !!!......... :surprise:
With the current dollar to yen I would think it is to the advantage of the American working man. Same with the Euro to dollar. Vehicles built in Japan and Germany are not as profitable as they were at one time. Could be why many automakers are building factories in the USA. Just because they are not UAW does not make it a bad thing for all of the USA.
Just as a reference. The Toyota Camry's sold in the USA are built in NA. All but 2% which I would think are Camry hybrids. Most of the Corollas are also NA built.
If GM and Ford are able to offer vehicles people want they may be able to stay afloat. Also if the UAW leadership can keep the people on the job instead of the picket lines, they may get some lost customers back over the next 10 years.
I do not know anyone here in San Diego that is pro Union. I was kind of looked down on by friends and family for being a hoodlum Teamster. So CA Unions other than government and teachers are all but history. Most construction is non Union. Even on the big jobs. It has very little to do with pay. Most of the problems arise from workers thinking they do not have to show up on time and ready to work Monday through Friday.
rocky: "it just amazes me how GM was able to make a superior automobile like the Malibu"...what amazes me is how long it took for GM to make a superior automobile...why aren't ALL of GM's offering this good???...that is the problem...GM finally makes a really good car, maybe 2 or 3 (Malibu, DTS, CTS) and you think the whole lineup is great...they have much work to do, and, what you are forgetting, as always, is the millions of buyers who have deserted the Big 3 because they felt that the Big 3 deserted them on the quality issue...I bring back gagrice's issue with poorly fitting doors...how could ANY worker not know that the door did not fit, and yet they released it for sale...unthinkable, and all you can do is rah-rah the union...sorry, rock, it IS the union that allowed a crooked door to be placed on a vehicle and released for sale...that vehicle should have been pulled off the line and repaired at the line...how can you defend poor workmanship like that and then wonder why millions of Americans have told the Big 3 to stick it???
lemko: oops, I forgot about the DTS, and you have done your share, but there simply ain't enough of you to keep GM the size it once was...will it alwways be here???...yes, but it will be quite small and hardly a force in the auto world like it once was...
You ask: "...what amazes me is how long it took for GM to make a superior automobile..."
I ask, was it the union who forced GM to make the Buick Century and Olds Cutlass Ciera from 1982 TO 1996 with ONLY COSMETIC CHANGES, or a management decision?? My wife's grandparents owned an '86 Cutlass Ciera, and when they went to replace it in 1996, they went with the Altima, because they weren't going to pay for the same car they already owned, even though they had put 140,000 trouble free mile on it.
Again, you bring this up:
...I bring back gagrice's issue with poorly fitting doors...how could ANY worker not know that the door did not fit, and yet they released it for sale...
Well, I ask, what if the union worker said "Hey boss, check this out" and the boss says " F&#k it, let the dealer take care of it, we've got trucks to push out"??? There is only so much that the union can do. Ultimately, when it comes down to issues like this, even our union bosses will say " It's their company, and they can do what they want"
Ultimately, if they tell you to do something (like push a defective truck out the door), and their is no contract language allowing it, that's insubordination. Don't get me wrong, I think that if it's slow, and your boss asks you to change a lightbulb just do it, and it' s no big deal. But you should ALSO be able to say "Sorry boss, I'm not putting my name on that POS, You do it!!!" without any fear of retribution.
As far as I'm concerned, management pulling in 5 different directions all at once has more to do with GM's failures than the unions faults. However, they do BOTH share the blame.
Actually the big nightmare for the Japanese majors is one of the Big Three going out of business - and the resulting political fallout (the 50Bn USD bailout that B3 are now asking for is a first sign....). Toyota Chairman Okuda suggested in 2005 that Toyota should raise prices "to help out the US Auto industry" (and it raised such a hue and cry that Toyota had to issue a clarification http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/toyota_wont_raise_prices_to_aid_us_car- _sector_-_apr_26_2005/) - So inside the big three Japanese auto companies, the hope is that US B3 will get their act together. There are some signs of that starting to happen.....
Very well said cooterbfd !!! marsha7, is honestly blind if he really thinks GM, produces only 3 nice cars as he said CTS, DTS, Malibu !!!
Well Marsha7, their is other nice cars in the GM line-up !!!! The Aura, Astra, Saab 9-3, Lucerne, LaCrosse, G6, G8, and even the Impala, isn't that bad !!! I can think of others like the Sky and Solstice. My mother has a new 08' Sky Redline, and I just love it and enjoy driving it !!! :shades: The new Cobalt SS, is a slight improvement and while I agree with you their is still plenty work to be done it's not as bad as you are trying to make us believe !!!! :confuse: The bottom line is automobile sales are way down across the board. My mother who works for Gentex, builds mirrors for every major manufactor and she has been working just 3 days a week because it's so damn slow !!! Even orders for your beloved Honda, are way down.
It's just really a shame we have term limits aka 22nd admendment in this country because I'd love to cast a vote for our would be current president William Jefferson Clinton, by far our nations greatest president in its history !!!! If Bill, could run right now he'd probably get three-quarters of the vote !!! Tonight's speech was another reminder of just how much this country misses him as it's Commander in Chief !!!! :sick:
The U.S. automotive sector is the largest purchaser of U.S. Steel, aluminum, iron, copper, rubber, chemicals, plastics, electronic and computer chips
The U.S. automotive sector provides healthcare to more than 2 million Americans, employs nearly 250,000, supports another 5 million American jobs at dealers, suppliers, and service providers....., invested a $250,000 billion dollars in the U.S. over the last 2 decades and spends $12 billion annually on research and development in the U.S.
making the world go around is an issue :shades:
and your best(practical) cashflow is with a GM MasterCard (you will not be disappointed)
Interesting that the Oldsmobile is high on the list of survivors. Yet GM decided to drop it from the line. Yet they retained Buick, Chevy and Pontiac, which have a lower survival rate.
Also interesting that Subaru, with one of the best AWD systems going, has such a low survival rate in a country with plenty of need for AWD. Also Subaru has pretty much been above average in reliability. :confuse:
but there simply ain't enough of you to keep GM the size it once was...will it alwways be here???...yes, but it will be quite small and hardly a force in the auto world like it once was...
Perhaps here in NA GM "may" become smaller but worldwide it is not working out that way. They are still a bit aways from "quite small" or "hardly a force". GM is expanding as fast as anyone worldwide and is #1 or close to #1 everywhere else, besides Japan of course.
>"Your generalization of what you think you know about unions is just plain amazing !!! "
My generalization of what I actually know about unions comes from working for unionized Western Electric for 3 years and being raised, living, and still living south of Atlanta. There used to be Lakewood Chevrolet Plant and Hapeville Ford Plant here. I had/have friends and aquantances that wereworking there. UAW and non UAW. I also serviced equipment for the Ford plant.
My job description at Western Electric required me to do 400 units a day. That was very easy to accomplish by noon. I would just coast in the afternoons and ended up doing 500+ units. About my 3rd week at Western Electric, a shop steward showed up at my work station and "Warned" me to slow down. The only way he would have known my numbers is from one of my sorry "Friends" there.
After the shop steward left, the non union supervisor came over and said, "Kip, I expect he was warning you to slow down. Let me suggest that you bring some reading material and disappear a few times during the day so your numbers won't upset the union."
At raise time, we all got the same. Merit meant virtually nothing. Hardly anyone met the quota. One of the guys in my area averaged 300-325 units a day and bragged about it. He got the same raises as the rest and was still there when I left. Wonder why he was not "Straighten out" by the union as you suggest?
Several of the guys were taking advantage of the Educational tuition refunds. They got their degrees. Some left Western Electric, and some remained but were able to move out of the plant and into the office at much better salaries. Those with no ambition, no drive, no self esteem, and no hope to do anything else, called them "brown noses, [non-permissible content removed] kissers" and such. Simply because they wanted to better themselves.
So I have a damn good grip on union behavior and tactics.
I'm also man enough to fight my own battles, and negotiate my own future. :P
During my 30 years at IBM, as an outside service rep, (non management and non union) I saw several people put on 90 day plans for not doing their job. If they didn't straighten out, they hit the street. They just couldn't grasp the fact that they were not "entitled" to anything.
that I found out last night. One of my roommates is from the Detroit area originally. He used to work in a video production company, in a non-union job. He told me that their company got plenty of work from the UAW. Kinda interesting, that the UAW would contract out work to a company that was NON Union!
Maybe it's not big deal, but that just seems a bit hypocritical, there.
He also said that back in the "glory days" of the 1990's that jobs were so plentiful and there weren't enough workers to fill them that you could have gotten a job as a cashier or burger flipper at McDonalds and made $16-18 per hour!
If there's any truth to that, then that just sounds like it was yet another bubble waiting to burst. Either that or I went into the wrong line of work! :sick:
Of course the flip side of that is that now the economy's so bad out there I imagine you have people with Masters degrees and PhDs manning the registers and happy with minimum wage.
Sad and a waste of talent when that happens. I remember the early 1990s recession. There was a guy who had an MBA who lost his high-paying job at Bausch & Lomb. He was working nights where I do my second job doing inventory and working with his brother installing carpet in the day.
a shop steward showed up at my work station and "Warned" me to slow down
I agree with you that our friend Rocky has a lot to learn about Unions and life. My best friend in Alaska worked with me for 37 years. When he came to Alaska he was in the IBEW. He came as an installer of telco equipment to our long distance office. He was cross ways with the shop steward from the day he walked in. He was wire wrapping about twice as many pairs per day as anyone on the crew. That did not set well with the featherbedders in the IBEW. Our boss was impressed with his work and we hired him and he became a Teamster. He and I worked as shop stewards together for years. We NEVER told anyone to slow down. We were considered hard noses because we did not put up with technicians that could not carry their weight. Whiners were told to shut up and get back to work. He has not retired yet. He always hopes things will get better. I gave up on the workers coming up today. I think one word describes about a quarter of the workforce in this country. LOSERS!!!! No work ethic and poorly educated.
Unless the UAW and all unions start working for the company and not the employees, they are going to fade away. There are Chinese, Indians and Mexicans that will work. They are more than willing to give a good days work for their wages.
by far our nations greatest president in its history !!!!
You seem to think that the 90s were so great. Yet you complain about the huge salaries of CEOs. Do some REAL research and you will find the Dot.com bubble during that period spawned the HUGE salary increases of CEOs. The only reason the UAW and the B3 were doing well is cheap gas and huge sales of large SUVs. If the B3 had taken some of those HUGE profits and designed some fuel efficient cars for the inevitable upswing in gas prices they would be doing well today.
When the 1990s made your part of the US prosperous, many areas were in the doldrums. The unemployment in many states was higher in the 1990s than today, especially after 6 or 7 years of failed policy. Just as the housing and oil bubble today are bad for the economy. The Dot.com bubble was bad when it exploded in 1998. Just for grins how many more UAW workers were on the job in 2000 vs 1993.
My mother has a new 08' Sky Redline, and I just love it and enjoy driving it !!! It sounds like your mom is doing OK, if she can afford a new sports car.
Question?? If things were SO great for the UAW in 1998, why did they have to strike GM? That may have been the beginning of the end for the UAW.
The travesty of the UAW strike - United Automobile Workers Automotive Industries, Sept, 1998 by Jim Harbour
While General Motors was crippled by the recently-settled United Auto Workers' strike, it is the automaker's hourly and salary workers who will pay the biggest price. The massive cash depletion caused by the prolonged walkout (the company's automotive cash reserves dropped from $14 billion to $9 billion in the month of June alone) will certainly cause the cancellation of select future product programs.
The shortfall will also cause most other new product programs to be delayed, resulting in GM trying to sell aged, non-competitive cars and trucks.
Yes, GM will have to conserve its shrinking cash to fund new product development -- an $8 billion outlay in 1997 -- and for tools and facilities in vehicle assembly, stamping and powertrain. These expenditures will leave scant little cash to develop new components in-house.
That's the real travesty of the strike.
Compared with Chrysler and Ford, GM has by far the worst overall relations with the UAW and its hourly workforce. This was caused by GM failing to address its non-competitiveness during the 1980s, as Chrysler and Ford did. Consequently, it is paying the price of that inaction. The giant automaker is seen as always cutting its hourly and salary workforce during periods of prosperity.
For GM -- the world's highest-cost, least efficient automaker -- the key issue is the dire need to get competitive in cost and productivity with the rest of the industry. That, of course, conflicts directly with the union's sworn mission to maintain, and create, jobs for the next generation of autoworkers.
How bad is GM today? To build one vehicle --which includes making all the body stampings, manufacturing the engine and transmission, and assembling everything -- takes GM an 47 labor hours, or $2,000. By comparison, Ford requires 34% fewer labor hours and cost to build a comparable car or truck and its that $510 per-vehicle added cost At GM represents the major difference between the 1997 Automotive profits earned by the two largest manufacturers in North America. In 1997, Ford's before-tax profits of $1,520 per vehicle were a full $695 more than GM's profits of $825 per vehicle. The annual labor cost penalty for GM is $3.1 billion.
The fact is, the recent series of strikes by the UAW are not about health and safety, or outsourcing, as the union claims. They are about being competitive. Sure, I know the UAW does not appreciate the annual Harbour Report, which details the industry's competitiveness in vehicle stamping, powertrain and assembly plants. But the report has a real function. It keeps automakers fully aware, in depth, of their competitive position so that the U.S. industry does not repeat the serious mistakes it made in the early 1980s.
Certainly there were no winners in the recent UAW strike. GM has taken the initial hit in lost profits and cash to fund future product programs. But the worst may be yet to come.
As this is written, dealer inventories are precariously low, and new cars and trucks are just beginning to trickle to GM's dealers. The most important of them, the Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra full-size pickup trucks (the company's most critical new model, and a strategic target of the recent walkout) have yet to appear on the streets. Permanent market share losses may occur in some key segments. And that will mean significantly less volume, more closed plants and ultimately, many less hourly and salary workers.
Ironically, that's the very situation that the United Auto Workers leadership claims it's doing all it can to avoid.
The worst IS coming. The UAW is paying now for the sins of the 1998 Strike. I have no sympathy. Nor do most Americans. WE look at it as a bunch of spoiled, under worked, over paid brats up in Michigan. You can cry for the government to bail out the B3. It will take a massive turnaround in the mentality of the workforce. Can the UAW whip the workers into shape. Can they be competitive with the competition?
I too have had the experience of being told to slow down by the Shop Steward....now, to be honest, this experience is 30 plus years old; back in the glory days of the unions.
I had a summer job at a factory where we made parts for Xerox machines - Xerox could afford the best in those days, and we were making their copiers with stainless steel frames! My summer job was to grind the welds smooth on those frames. With good welder there wasn't much to grind. With a BAD welder, it was like grinding down the rocky mountains with 36 grit. We had a lot of bad welders. It looked like the 4th of July with all those sparks flying! It was hot dirty work.
Anyhow, one of the 'real' guys on a stamping machine got uhm, sickand was going to be out for a couple of weeks in Alaska. I was put on his stamping machine. It was pretty boring. Push the feed button; push the two (safety - no hands in the press) stamping buttons; push the feed button. Repeat for 8 hours.
I had the engineer speed up the machine - three times. I was really stamping those parts out! Until the Shop Steward talked to the foreman and had me removed, and sent back to the grinders. The Shop Steward came to talk to me. He said, "Welcome back to the grinders uhm, (expletive-deleted)- you were going to turn a two-week job into a three-day job. Hope you like them grinders, cause you're stayin there!" :sick:
I learned my lesson about the virtues of unionization early.
So after that My co-worker and I teamed up on the grinding and worked together instead of independently. We could turn out our quota, plus one, by 2 in the afternoon. Then off to the air conditioned breakroom for the rest of the day. Not so good for the company maybe, but great for us unionized workers!
Comments
If you can find the time, hang out with us for a bit tonight. MUCH less stressful than discussions like this!
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The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight to meet and greet with your fellow CarSpace members!
See you there!
Considering how at the Detroit Auto Show, in the import exhibits (Honda and Toy and Datsun/Nissan, not the German or British) they used to slash upholstery, break steering wheels, destroy dashboards and key paint jobs, I would certainly suspect UAW people and the fact that the cars were almost destroyed (like after a week sitting on the highway in NYC), the childish behavior was appalling...
Yes, while the "survey" is hardly scientific, the behavior of Detroiters at the Auto Show only backs up what I saw...
While I do not know if that is done today, it was amazing what I saw back then...by Day 5, out of 6 or 7, the Japanese cars were damaged to the point that an insurance company might total it...you had to see it to believe it, and I did see it...
Knives and screwdrivers taken to dashboards, broken steering wheels (you know how hard it is to break a steering wheel?), over half of the paint removed thru keying, etc.
Some wouldn't look, the others acted like destroying the sample would make them go away...you really must deal with these people to understand their lack of intelligence, maturity, and concern for others property...that is part of my lack of respect for the UAW...fortunately, the market is taking care of the problem, as they won't be around for long...and, will anybody hire them for ANYTHING in the future???...rocky thinks they are a well trained workforce..once those work restrictions disappear as the union dies, nobody in their right mind would hire anyone who worked for the UAW...you MIGHT have a better chance to re-educate a 3rd generation welfare recipient than to get that entitlement attitude out of a UAW worker, or their family, or anyone they drove past on the freeway at 65 mph...
Don't get me started... :P
Fine if that's your position. Believe it or not most UAW employees did something before landing a job with the UAW-Big 3. My father served his country via U.S. Navy.
There is NO evidence that any part of the USA produces better workers than any other.
I will respectfully disagree with you as their is evidence the worker bee's from the midwest will out work any other bee in the country. Those aren't my words but the words from various employers. One of the reasons I was hired at Pantex, I was told because of my midwestern work ethic as I'd show up on time and do my job. We as a culture are use to longer hours than most folks. The people in the south believe you need to be home for their sons soccer game and whether right or wrong
(which I believe is right and agree w/ southerners btw) we give up our families for our employers schedules. Again those aren't my words but words from my, family, friends, former employers. I will use a quote from Hilmar Cheese Company's plant manager in Dalhart, Tx. "You can sure tell a difference in work ethic and speed of employees from California and here" Obviously Californians, work quite a bit harder, faster, complain less, than Texans.
-Rocky
-Rocky
62vetteefp, I, lemko, imidazol97, dallasdude1, 1487, have posted facts to support our case !!! We have the trophy's and plaques, on display thus I'm not so sure if we are the ones that actually have our heads buried in the sand !!!
-Rocky
Yours must have been built on a Monday or Friday.
Mine was fairly reliable and I kept it for 141,000 miles and just 2 months shy of 10 years. I traded it last September on a Sebring Limited, which I hope to have another long and happy relationship with.
The Contour/Mystique did have a few mostly minor quirks that most owners could fix themselves if they had the right resources. The Contour Enthusiasts Group has a very active forum full of tips and how-tos on keeping these cars operating in top condition. I still visit there often even though I no longer own the car.
The Freestar was discontinued a couple of years ago but heck the Buick Century counted in last year's JD Powers calculations so..... Freestyle is now Taurus X..I think. Nice vehicle, too bad it main competitor is other Ford products like the Explorer, Flex and Edge.
I am certainly glad they are happy with their cars...the only evidence I need to cite is simply the decreasing market share of the Big 3 over the last 20-plus years...
It's like a restaurant...a small core of loyalists may keep it alive for a time...but if new customers keep patronizing other eateries, that small core of loyalists will watch their favorite restaurant close down...
The folks listed above are great folks...but, as you may have noticed, millions of buyers have changed over to Toy and Hon, and not too many of them have been burned by the imports, compared to Big 3 folks...
The simple lost market share of the Big 3 certainly DISPROVES your case, because they are selling fewer cars to fewer people as the years go by...the group of loyalists above, truly proves nothing...
Listen to the gagrices and others who are just as numerous with very legitimate complaints about Big 3 products...they are speaking about the problems that the other millions had with Big 3 products and deserted Big 3 for the imports...
Plus, simple math...Big 3 closing plants while imports build them...so the market for cars is there, but the market for Big 3 cars is evaporating...your argument fails...better luck next time... :P
Why are the B3 closing plants in the Midwest? If that was true, why did many factories in the Midwest move to the South in the 1960s and 70s? They did not all move to get more sunshine. Maybe a few that moved to Florida for the Sun. It is a complex issue of political maneuvering. If you don't think companies like VW do a lot of research before building a $Billion plant in TN, you are not being realistic.
How many of the people in the Hilmar Cheese factory are legal? Illegals are some of the BEST employees. They take a lot of crap and work hard. Did you see that 600 more got busted in Mississippi this afternoon?
And as long as we are on Unions. What about the Union in Alabama that wanted to eliminate Labor day and replace it with an Islamic Holiday? That was from your buddy Bill Clinton's NUMBER ONE MAN TYSON.
The change, which does not affect the company's 118 other plants, exchanges Labor Day for the Muslim holiday that marks the end of Ramadan. The new contract, negotiated last fall, also gives Muslim workers a prayer room.
"Eid al-Fitr is one of eight paid holidays for all team members covered by the contract, while Labor Day is not a paid holiday," Gary Mickelson, Tyson's media relations director, told the Shelbyville Times-Gazette.
Coming to a UAW shop near you soon :P
Plaques and trophies don't mean as much as they have in the past. Not unusual these days to find the average child with plaques and trophies in their room. They got them for simply being on a team. Even if the team never won a game, or that child never played a game.
Initial Quality Awards don't mean much if the "Lasting Quality" is not there!
lemko: >"I don't know if higher pay always attracts the best people, but it certainly enables you to keep them. Pay them too low, and many won't even bother showing up."
Very true ! But we need to realize that many folks with an "Entitled" attitude don't show up or do as little as possible, even though the pay is very good, and many times higher than other similar jobs.
Don't you agree that employers need to have the ability to deal with the dead beats, to keep the work force strong, and deliver a timely, quality product ?
Slackers that constantly get away with it are bad for the morale and (consequential) attitudes of the other employees. They do as little as possible, knowing that it is next to impossible for the employer to deal with them, because the entire plant might "Strike". Then according to the "Contract" they get the same raises, promotions when it is their time, and bennefits as those that truly wanted to do a good job. Sadly, over a period of time, the hard workers give up and simply do a so-so job, because their fate is sealed by contracts.
UAW and other Unions need to realize this is killing the companies, so the companies are forced to go where they can get some relief or they will simply go away.
Kip
Probably not that hard if you put your mind to it, especially on a 70's or 80's Japanese car. :P
**Edit...just so that comment doesn't stir up too much controversy, let me confess that I had a steering column break once, on a 1979 Chrysler Newport! Although in its defense, this was in late 1997, and the car had about 240,000 miles on it. :shades:
As shown previously initial quality portends long term quality.
Considering that Toyota and Honda can produce the same number of vehicles with fewer workers than a comparable GM, Ford or Chrysler plant (although this gap has closed considerably in recent years), and that the daily absentee rate at domestic plants has run about 10-12 percent, versus 1-2 percent at the transplant operations, I would say that the evidence is to the contrary.
My Buick Park Avenue and Cadillac Brougham are going on 21 and 20 years. Tell me that isn't "lasting quality?" I see lots of lasting American quality at many old car show events. Where are all the Hondas, Toyotas, and Datsuns? Or there are 1 or 2 here and there, but most of 'em went back to Mother Nature over 15-20 years ago.
Just like those who base their opinions on one vehicle or the comments of a few others. Scientifically derived data cannot be right if they are on the wrong side of the data.
While you are at it, include people who base their opinions on a lifetime of domestic vehicles and switch to foreign made products. They are true simpletons who have no scientific proof that GM, Ford and Chrysler make the best cars. I qualify. :surprise:
Regards,
OW
Management, UAW, Dealers all involved...it's not a finger pointing game. It happened and change is clearing the board now.
Like the Malibu, CTS, Enclave, G8 and 'Vette.
Regards,
OW
The neighbors probably thought I got a big raise or a new job with that sharp, brand-new black Cadillac parked in front of our house!
Yeah, but then they probably thought you got laid off when my '79 NYer was parked out there! :P
While I have no real data to back it up I disagree. Toyota still, after 40 years, imports 50% of their vehicles to the US. They started to import when they started getting hammered for not building here and they were concerned about duties and such.
If they did start cutting plants they would not care about the employees starting unions because the plants would be close. On factor that would keep them here though is if the big 3 did go away the imports would need the plant capacity here to meet demand.
Just read an article in the paper today. The southern states seem to have close to 20% poverty rates. I doubt very much that the workers will complain about much in those states when making good money.
http://www.desrosiers.ca/pdfs/2002/2002-4.pdf
Here's an article about a 2006 update of the same data, but it's less detailed than the original study.
-Rocky
-Rocky
The slackers are usually dealt with by the co-workers and in some cases a threat of a serious beating for making everyone look bad becomes a verbal warning from steward to slacker employee. In a non-union company a slacker can do little work by being a brown noser aka tattle tale. There are ways to correct the slackers. It might take some time but it's that way almost everywhere. My last job people that were fired were threating the company with racial lawsuits, sexual harrassment suits, etc, and some are going through with it !!!......... :surprise:
-Rocky
Just as a reference. The Toyota Camry's sold in the USA are built in NA. All but 2% which I would think are Camry hybrids. Most of the Corollas are also NA built.
If GM and Ford are able to offer vehicles people want they may be able to stay afloat. Also if the UAW leadership can keep the people on the job instead of the picket lines, they may get some lost customers back over the next 10 years.
I do not know anyone here in San Diego that is pro Union. I was kind of looked down on by friends and family for being a hoodlum Teamster. So CA Unions other than government and teachers are all but history. Most construction is non Union. Even on the big jobs. It has very little to do with pay. Most of the problems arise from workers thinking they do not have to show up on time and ready to work Monday through Friday.
lemko: oops, I forgot about the DTS, and you have done your share, but there simply ain't enough of you to keep GM the size it once was...will it alwways be here???...yes, but it will be quite small and hardly a force in the auto world like it once was...
To put it in lawyer terms..., if the door doesn't fit, you must acquit--from the OJ "trial."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You ask: "...what amazes me is how long it took for GM to make a superior automobile..."
I ask, was it the union who forced GM to make the Buick Century and Olds Cutlass Ciera from 1982 TO 1996 with ONLY COSMETIC CHANGES, or a management decision?? My wife's grandparents owned an '86 Cutlass Ciera, and when they went to replace it in 1996, they went with the Altima, because they weren't going to pay for the same car they already owned, even though they had put 140,000 trouble free mile on it.
Again, you bring this up:
...I bring back gagrice's issue with poorly fitting doors...how could ANY worker not know that the door did not fit, and yet they released it for sale...
Well, I ask, what if the union worker said "Hey boss, check this out" and the boss says " F&#k it, let the dealer take care of it, we've got trucks to push out"??? There is only so much that the union can do. Ultimately, when it comes down to issues like this, even our union bosses will say " It's their company, and they can do what they want"
Ultimately, if they tell you to do something (like push a defective truck out the door), and their is no contract language allowing it, that's insubordination. Don't get me wrong, I think that if it's slow, and your boss asks you to change a lightbulb just do it, and it' s no big deal. But you should ALSO be able to say "Sorry boss, I'm not putting my name on that POS, You do it!!!" without any fear of retribution.
As far as I'm concerned, management pulling in 5 different directions all at once has more to do with GM's failures than the unions faults. However, they do BOTH share the blame.
Regards,
OW
Well Marsha7, their is other nice cars in the GM line-up !!!! The Aura, Astra,
Saab 9-3, Lucerne, LaCrosse, G6, G8, and even the Impala, isn't that bad !!! I can think of others like the Sky and Solstice. My mother has a new 08' Sky Redline, and I just love it and enjoy driving it !!! :shades: The new Cobalt SS, is a slight improvement and while I agree with you their is still plenty work to be done it's not as bad as you are trying to make us believe !!!! :confuse: The bottom line is automobile sales are way down across the board. My mother who works for Gentex, builds mirrors for every major manufactor and she has been working just 3 days a week because it's so damn slow !!! Even orders for your beloved Honda, are way down.
It's just really a shame we have term limits aka 22nd admendment in this country because I'd love to cast a vote for our would be current president William Jefferson Clinton, by far our nations greatest president in its history !!!! If Bill, could run right now he'd probably get three-quarters of the vote !!! Tonight's speech was another reminder of just how much this country misses him as it's Commander in Chief !!!!
"The Rock"
link title
The U.S. automotive sector is the largest purchaser of U.S. Steel, aluminum, iron, copper, rubber, chemicals, plastics, electronic and computer chips
The U.S. automotive sector provides healthcare to more than 2 million Americans, employs nearly 250,000, supports another 5 million American jobs at dealers, suppliers, and service providers....., invested a $250,000 billion dollars in the U.S. over the last 2 decades and spends $12 billion annually on research and development in the U.S.
making the world go around is an issue :shades:
and your best(practical) cashflow is with a GM MasterCard (you will not be disappointed)
Also interesting that Subaru, with one of the best AWD systems going, has such a low survival rate in a country with plenty of need for AWD. Also Subaru has pretty much been above average in reliability. :confuse:
Kip
Perhaps here in NA GM "may" become smaller but worldwide it is not working out that way. They are still a bit aways from "quite small" or "hardly a force". GM is expanding as fast as anyone worldwide and is #1 or close to #1 everywhere else, besides Japan of course.
My generalization of what I actually know about unions comes from working for unionized Western Electric for 3 years and being raised, living, and still living south of Atlanta. There used to be Lakewood Chevrolet Plant and Hapeville Ford Plant here. I had/have friends and aquantances that were working there. UAW and non UAW. I also serviced equipment for the Ford plant.
My job description at Western Electric required me to do 400 units a day. That was very easy to accomplish by noon. I would just coast in the afternoons and ended up doing 500+ units. About my 3rd week at Western Electric, a shop steward showed up at my work station and "Warned" me to slow down. The only way he would have known my numbers is from one of my sorry "Friends" there.
After the shop steward left, the non union supervisor came over and said, "Kip, I expect he was warning you to slow down. Let me suggest that you bring some reading material and disappear a few times during the day so your numbers won't upset the union."
At raise time, we all got the same. Merit meant virtually nothing. Hardly anyone met the quota. One of the guys in my area averaged 300-325 units a day and bragged about it. He got the same raises as the rest and was still there when I left. Wonder why he was not "Straighten out" by the union as you suggest?
Several of the guys were taking advantage of the Educational tuition refunds. They got their degrees. Some left Western Electric, and some remained but were able to move out of the plant and into the office at much better salaries. Those with no ambition, no drive, no self esteem, and no hope to do anything else, called them "brown noses, [non-permissible content removed] kissers" and such. Simply because they wanted to better themselves.
So I have a damn good grip on union behavior and tactics.
I'm also man enough to fight my own battles, and negotiate my own future. :P
During my 30 years at IBM, as an outside service rep, (non management and non union) I saw several people put on 90 day plans for not doing their job. If they didn't straighten out, they hit the street. They just couldn't grasp the fact that they were not "entitled" to anything.
Kip
Maybe it's not big deal, but that just seems a bit hypocritical, there.
He also said that back in the "glory days" of the 1990's that jobs were so plentiful and there weren't enough workers to fill them that you could have gotten a job as a cashier or burger flipper at McDonalds and made $16-18 per hour!
If there's any truth to that, then that just sounds like it was yet another bubble waiting to burst. Either that or I went into the wrong line of work! :sick:
Of course the flip side of that is that now the economy's so bad out there I imagine you have people with Masters degrees and PhDs manning the registers and happy with minimum wage.
I agree with you that our friend Rocky has a lot to learn about Unions and life. My best friend in Alaska worked with me for 37 years. When he came to Alaska he was in the IBEW. He came as an installer of telco equipment to our long distance office. He was cross ways with the shop steward from the day he walked in. He was wire wrapping about twice as many pairs per day as anyone on the crew. That did not set well with the featherbedders in the IBEW. Our boss was impressed with his work and we hired him and he became a Teamster. He and I worked as shop stewards together for years. We NEVER told anyone to slow down. We were considered hard noses because we did not put up with technicians that could not carry their weight. Whiners were told to shut up and get back to work. He has not retired yet. He always hopes things will get better. I gave up on the workers coming up today. I think one word describes about a quarter of the workforce in this country. LOSERS!!!! No work ethic and poorly educated.
Unless the UAW and all unions start working for the company and not the employees, they are going to fade away. There are Chinese, Indians and Mexicans that will work. They are more than willing to give a good days work for their wages.
You seem to think that the 90s were so great. Yet you complain about the huge salaries of CEOs. Do some REAL research and you will find the Dot.com bubble during that period spawned the HUGE salary increases of CEOs. The only reason the UAW and the B3 were doing well is cheap gas and huge sales of large SUVs. If the B3 had taken some of those HUGE profits and designed some fuel efficient cars for the inevitable upswing in gas prices they would be doing well today.
When the 1990s made your part of the US prosperous, many areas were in the doldrums. The unemployment in many states was higher in the 1990s than today, especially after 6 or 7 years of failed policy. Just as the housing and oil bubble today are bad for the economy. The Dot.com bubble was bad when it exploded in 1998. Just for grins how many more UAW workers were on the job in 2000 vs 1993.
We do have a place to discuss our upcoming presidential election:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f185b68/1332
It sounds like your mom is doing OK, if she can afford a new sports car.
Question?? If things were SO great for the UAW in 1998, why did they have to strike GM? That may have been the beginning of the end for the UAW.
The travesty of the UAW strike - United Automobile Workers
Automotive Industries, Sept, 1998 by Jim Harbour
While General Motors was crippled by the recently-settled United Auto Workers' strike, it is the automaker's hourly and salary workers who will pay the biggest price. The massive cash depletion caused by the prolonged walkout (the company's automotive cash reserves dropped from $14 billion to $9 billion in the month of June alone) will certainly cause the cancellation of select future product programs.
The shortfall will also cause most other new product programs to be delayed, resulting in GM trying to sell aged, non-competitive cars and trucks.
Yes, GM will have to conserve its shrinking cash to fund new product development -- an $8 billion outlay in 1997 -- and for tools and facilities in vehicle assembly, stamping and powertrain. These expenditures will leave scant little cash to develop new components in-house.
That's the real travesty of the strike.
Compared with Chrysler and Ford, GM has by far the worst overall relations with the UAW and its hourly workforce. This was caused by GM failing to address its non-competitiveness during the 1980s, as Chrysler and Ford did. Consequently, it is paying the price of that inaction. The giant automaker is seen as always cutting its hourly and salary workforce during periods of prosperity.
For GM -- the world's highest-cost, least efficient automaker -- the key issue is the dire need to get competitive in cost and productivity with the rest of the industry. That, of course, conflicts directly with the union's sworn mission to maintain, and create, jobs for the next generation of autoworkers.
How bad is GM today? To build one vehicle --which includes making all the body stampings, manufacturing the engine and transmission, and assembling everything -- takes GM an 47 labor hours, or $2,000. By comparison, Ford requires 34% fewer labor hours and cost to build a comparable car or truck and its that $510 per-vehicle added cost At GM represents the major difference between the 1997 Automotive profits earned by the two largest manufacturers in North America. In 1997, Ford's before-tax profits of $1,520 per vehicle were a full $695 more than GM's profits of $825 per vehicle. The annual labor cost penalty for GM is $3.1 billion.
The fact is, the recent series of strikes by the UAW are not about health and safety, or outsourcing, as the union claims. They are about being competitive. Sure, I know the UAW does not appreciate the annual Harbour Report, which details the industry's competitiveness in vehicle stamping, powertrain and assembly plants. But the report has a real function. It keeps automakers fully aware, in depth, of their competitive position so that the U.S. industry does not repeat the serious mistakes it made in the early 1980s.
Certainly there were no winners in the recent UAW strike. GM has taken the initial hit in lost profits and cash to fund future product programs. But the worst may be yet to come.
As this is written, dealer inventories are precariously low, and new cars and trucks are just beginning to trickle to GM's dealers. The most important of them, the Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra full-size pickup trucks (the company's most critical new model, and a strategic target of the recent walkout) have yet to appear on the streets. Permanent market share losses may occur in some key segments. And that will mean significantly less volume, more closed plants and ultimately, many less hourly and salary workers.
Ironically, that's the very situation that the United Auto Workers leadership claims it's doing all it can to avoid.
The worst IS coming. The UAW is paying now for the sins of the 1998 Strike. I have no sympathy. Nor do most Americans. WE look at it as a bunch of spoiled, under worked, over paid brats up in Michigan. You can cry for the government to bail out the B3. It will take a massive turnaround in the mentality of the workforce. Can the UAW whip the workers into shape. Can they be competitive with the competition?
I had a summer job at a factory where we made parts for Xerox machines - Xerox could afford the best in those days, and we were making their copiers with stainless steel frames! My summer job was to grind the welds smooth on those frames. With good welder there wasn't much to grind. With a BAD welder, it was like grinding down the rocky mountains with 36 grit. We had a lot of bad welders. It looked like the 4th of July with all those sparks flying! It was hot dirty work.
Anyhow, one of the 'real' guys on a stamping machine got uhm, sick
I had the engineer speed up the machine - three times. I was really stamping those parts out! Until the Shop Steward talked to the foreman and had me removed, and sent back to the grinders. The Shop Steward came to talk to me. He said, "Welcome back to the grinders uhm, (expletive-deleted)- you were going to turn a two-week job into a three-day job. Hope you like them grinders, cause you're stayin there!" :sick:
I learned my lesson about the virtues of unionization early.
So after that My co-worker and I teamed up on the grinding and worked together instead of independently. We could turn out our quota, plus one, by 2 in the afternoon. Then off to the air conditioned breakroom for the rest of the day.
Not so good for the company maybe, but great for us unionized workers!