I guess you can add me to rocky and lemko as far as car purchases-1989 Pontiac Sunbird/1998 Pontiac Sunfire/2003 Chevy Malibu/2006 Chevy Impala all bought new. The only two problems in nearly 20 years that put the cars in the shop other than maintenance were a failed ECM module on the 89 Sunbird, and on the 06 Impala, the widespread problem with the steering column "clunking".
I've been a long time lurker on the forums, but I just decided to finally start posting in some of the discussions. I really enjoy all the different points of view. Rocky would probably call me a fascist if we got into a political discussion, and marsha7 would dog me for wasting my money on crappy domestic cars, but I'd still enjoy shooting the breeze with all of ya!
kipk: someday rocky will learn that the only job of the union is to featherbed and slow down the work force...he denies it daily, yet has no comprehension how the union has made this country more INEFFICIENT by the day...anytime the union consents to anything that improves production, they go from being extremely inefficient to badly inefficient...all you guys who post your personal experiences matches exactly what I have said and known about unions for 30 years...
rocky: you were raised in a union family, and probably really know very little else...kinda like the person raised under communism...they only know their system but have a vague idea of what capitalism is about...being union, you know very little about non-union or the rotten things the union has done to companies and corporations...when you grow up non-union, and then spend 10 years immersed in the union playground of Detroit and see the junk, it is an eye opening experience...all the horrors of the union are posted here, but you just look the other way...
The big 6 are pretty much equal in assembly plant productivity and have been for awhile.
Again we are discussing old data and the misperceptions continue. I also spent 3 summers in GM engine plants(77,78,79). Same story, worked for 4 hours to get quota and then go to the bar until shift was done(not me, the full timers) (3rd shift). This is not the case anymore. GM is still working to reduce the restrictive work rules because there are still some around. BUT you will not see an assembly plant line go down because an electrician is not available to change a light bulb. Also GM got tid of most all their non assembly plants. Still build thier own engines/trans/sheet metal but they get their other parts from the same sources as all the other OEM's.
And now that GM is getting the union cost (wages/health care/benis) down the cost/vehicle will be much closer. While 3 years ago there was easily a $2500 difference due to assembly plant costs alone that number will be virtually equal.
The latest Harbour Report is out, showing gains in productivity by the U.S. automakers and a narrowing of the gap in productivity between U.S. and Japanese car companies.
But the report also suggests that, in some respects, those gains are not entirely meaningful.
According to the firm’s news release, here are some of the latest findings:
Driven by more consistent, leaner processes and buyouts of tens of thousands workers, the Detroit Three automakers in 2007 nearly erased the productivity deficit against their Japanese-based competitors, despite declining production and shrinking market share.
The difference among the Big Six from the most to least productive in terms of total manufacturing labor (Assembly, Stamping, Engine and Transmission) has dropped to 3.50 hours per vehicle (or about $260 per vehicle), down from 10.51 hours (or $790 per vehicle) in 2003.
Chrysler showed the biggest improvement, cutting its total manufacturing labor hours per vehicle by 7.7% to 30.37, the same number recorded by Toyota.
Just thought I would make a comment for those who do not know what I have hopes for...
I rail against the UAW, simply because, in the last 30 years or so, they have been a hindrance to productivity and excellence in Big 3 auto quality...whether stupid restrictive work rules, 2 year grievance processes to get rid of the super-worthless workers, workers sending out the "word" that we must work slower or they will expect good work habits (Ha!!!) all the time...yada, yada, yada...I think the union has become too powerful and has brought this on themselves, as a number of the jobs, like floorsweeping, simply are not worth over $5/hour no matter who does it, including me...
Having said that, I want you to know that I really do root for the home team, the Big 3, to survive, do well, and hopefully thrive...closing plants, dumping worthless workers will get them on the way, but filing Chapter 11 and voiding those contracts will jump start them...
It is more important for the company to survive than the union or the workers, which must be seen as expendable, especially if their habits are counterproductive to a good product...I am surprised that Ch 11 has not been done by now...
I see a leaner and more efficient work force in the future, with their own 401K plans so they can save for their own retirement instead of a pension plan with health care at no out-of-pocket expense, which they have had for years...no more, as world competition simply will not allow it...let each person put away for their own pension and be, heaven forbid, responsible for themselves...
So, don't think because I am enamored with my Hondas, and admire the imports, that I want to see the demise of the Big 3...absolutely not...the demise of the union is in the cards, likely in the near future...they were needed in the 30s and 40s, they are now a relic of the past that must die like the dinosaurs that also could not survive as the environment changed, but they could not evolve to do so, so must the UAW move on to the next life...
But I want the Big 3 to make the best products, like Malibu, CTS, MKS, Taurus, etc....I criticize the home team because I believe that they got fat, happy, and arrogant, but I believe they will make a far superior product in the future, as the buying market demands it and will not tolerate anything less...now that they finally see the imports as a threat to their very survival, not just a few market share points, they will shape up and meet the competition head on...
"It's just really a shame we have term limits aka 22nd admendment in this country because I'd love to cast a vote for our would be current president William Jefferson Clinton, by far our nations greatest president in its history !!!! "
Rocky, with all due respect, the rose colored glasses need to come off w/ this guy AND his wife.
The '90's were as good as they were because of LOW interest rates fueling a rebounding economy, and the Telecom act of '96 fueling the .com boom. Bill was FAR from the worst president we had, but far from the worst too.
3 things bother me about the Clinton regime: NAFTA, his Lewinski-ing the Chinese (IIRC, HE gave them favored nation status, or at least greased the skids for that happening), and how the Telecom act has made long distance SO DAMN CHEAP, that jobs we once held can be done overseas far too cheap. It is plausible to have a teachers aide in a classroom making min. wage helping our kids, while someone w/ a masters degree making LESS than min wage teaches them the lesson via the internet from India.
After 20 years on this Bush/Clinton roller coaster, I'm ready to get off (someone PLEASE get me a barf bag) :sick:
Bob, I don't see that happening any time soon. One reason: While I believe they will have to make historical concessions in the future, they will do it to ensure their survival. At some point in time the pendulum will swing too far in the favor of the employers, and SOMEBODY is going to have to stand up to them. If they go, then I wonder if we'll see a repeat of the violence of the '30's to get them back in.
I look at it this simply: if big corporations can lobby Congress and be successful, then the only people that will lobby for the worker (at the congressional level) will be a union. I doubt any Congressman would give you or I the time of day unless they were whoring a vote.
Welcome to the discussion. :shades: Please post. Don't take too much too seriously :mad: or personally . Opinions Are Us could be the motto in here. We're all one big, happy family, I think :confuse: .
I'm not going to lie and say I'm not a Bill Clinton, fan. I love Slick-Willy, as the right-wing calls him !!! Watching him deliver that speech of perfection last night was a flash-back to how good things werein this country and if Gore, would of been elected and not cheated in 2000 or that Clinton, didn't have the 22nd admendment to stop his reign as president, this country would not be in as much trouble as it is now !!! :sick:
Bill Clinton, has some faults and did some things I'm not proud of but his accomplishments IMHO by far out-weigh his faults.
Gagrice, the UAW was busy making cars contributing to the nearly 19 million vehicle sales. GM, was #1 and the UAW, won contract gains and got a piece of the pie !!! Life was good here in Michigan, under William Jefferson Clinton !!!! Also I did a little research and your high unemployment quote gagrice, is not factual. Bill Clinton, had the lowest national unemployment percentage since the great depression !!!! He added 22 million jobs many of which were union and not just 5 million McJobs, like Dubya Bush well added. :sick:
Marsha7,
you can keep all your anti-union rah-rah-rah, but that doesn't change the facts I pointed out to you earlier. I think 62vetteefp, pretty much has laid out the facts and you don't like it. Perhaps, instead of knocking my age and trying to claim I'm to young to remember and just take a big ol' swig of Geritol, :P just perhaps if you squint through those cataracts that one company in Detroit, in the 1980's isn't everyone !!!
If they go, then I wonder if we'll see a repeat of the violence of the '30's to get them back in.
In the 1930s the workers had some serious issues to deal with. As a result of those strong people we have many laws protecting workers. A few stupid employers may try to work people without mandatory breaks and no overtime. By law there should be a poster in every work location letting workers know their rights under those laws. Any sweat shops in the USA are illegal and staffed by illegal aliens. You are seeing a crackdown on some of those shops over the last few weeks. I don't see any weaknesses in the labor laws currently on the books. Most places are paying above minimum wage to get workers. The labor situation in this country is getting acute. We do not have enough people to do all the jobs. Many are entry level. They all have levels of management that pay pretty well. When you can make $60k to $70k managing a burger place with just a HS education that ain't too bad. Or $70k a year as a security guard with great benefits. We have a way too large civil service force that are all over paid from what I see being done. In the history of our country, people have it better now than ever. Just reading a book on the early Republic. It talks about the depression of 1819. 75% unemployment in Philadelphia. Today the state of Pennsylvania has an overall lower unemployment than it did in the 1990s. Most counties less than 5.5% of the people unemployed.
As for Michigan. We have some people with short memories. They forgot how bad it was in the late 1970s until the mid 1980s. Michigan had unemployment close to 17% as a result of the Carter administration failed policies. Michigan is still much better off today than it was in 1980. High oil prices, big vehicles do not sell. Big 3 sells BIG Vehicles.
Ask the people of Hawaii what they think of the last administration. They are a lot better off now than throughout the 1990s. From 6% most of the 1990s to as low a 2.3% unemployment under the current administration.
Actually, you are correct...the UAW will be with us for quite some time...but it will be a shadow of its former self, losing hundreds of thousands of members if I remember my numbers correctly...
But at some point, the Big 3 (2?) will not tolerate strikes anymore, by simply closing a plant and moving the jobs to join the others, or by filing Ch 11, voiding any union contract, and starting over with new employees...some posters write about how well-trained the UAW is, I would surmise that training new employees would not take too long, considering that they are training us "ignorant Southerners" (as some think we are) to make Kias, Hon, Toy, BMW, MB, etc...so if you can train the ignorant in the South, surely you could dump all the current union employees and replace them in a heartbeat with newly trained people...and those newly trained people would hardly think of a strike, simply because they would know that they got THEIR jobs because of a strike where they dumped their predecessors...so the new employees would know that the Sword of Damocles hangs over their collective heads, as they could lose those jobs as easily as they got those jobs...
I also wonder about the pendulum swinging back for the same reason as stated above...from 1900 to 1970s, we had the market to ourselves and we were the ones left standing after each world war, so we were the only market to sell to and we made it all, so the union in the 30s and 40s could rebel and had power...
Now, with so much work going elsewhere, I really question whether a company can unionize en masse, since any maker worth their salt will tell the unionites that "they can have their union, but too bad you no longer have jobs" as they will move the plant...the employee is the expendable unit simply because if the company does not exist, nobody has a job...if the company exists, then people can be employed...I think Eastern Airlines is a fine example...they wanted more than the market could pay, especially in the era of deregulation...so, they struck Eastern...Eastern is now gone, and so are the jobs of EVERYBODY that worked there...so, the Machinists Union certainly flexed its muscle, and, with an IQ somewhere below "imbecile" killed the copany and all the jobs that went with it, from pilots, to machinists, to mechanics, to flight attendants, to ticket agents, to baggage handlers, etc...so, the ONLY thing the union was good for was to destroy the jobs of everybody...I see the UAW as no different, but they have not managed to kill the Big 3 yet, but they sure are trying their hardest...
Unless the employees are truly suicidal like Eastern, the rule is simple...employees are expendable, the company is not...or, said another way, it took one Henry Ford to make Ford Motor, with a hundred thousand people having jobs from his genius...but one hundred thousand people WITHOUT the Henry Ford would simply be homeless...employees are interchangeable but Henry Ford was virtually irreplaceable...that is the true difference between employees and employers...employers CREATE the job machine, employees simply fill a gap, and if one employee leaves, they can be replaced by another nameless employee...
And, yes, he needs to take off those rose colored glasses...the only reason why China can send rockets into space was the treason by Clinton in selling them rocket technology they would have needed 50 years to steal...he bypassed the State Department by sending it thru the Commerce Department, run by his buddy, Ron Brown...he sold them the technology as they illegally paid millions into his campaign fund by thousands of $1,000 checks from families named Wang or Chin...Clinton should be tried for treason and shot at dawn...
Bill Clinton, had the lowest national unemployment percentage since the great depression !!!! He added 22 million jobs many of which were union and not just 5 million McJobs, like Dubya Bush well added.
Not sure where you got your info. Probably from one of his speeches that are easily debunked.
Fact: There were 66.2 million workers in Jan 1993 when Bill Clinton took office. In Jan 2001 when he left office there was 67.2 million people working. Now if he added 22 million jobs he also lost 21 million jobs. Today there are 66.1 million people working. Plus 12 million undocumented illegal aliens. I see that as a net gain in the workforce of 11 million jobs. The average farm worker legal and illegal in CA is making just under $12 per hour. If we could get the young people away from the video games long enough to do some work there are jobs for them. I don't know of any company in CA that is paying minimum wage except the Union grocery clerks. They thought they could better themselves with a strike and lost a lot of money for 83,000 workers. Now they start at minimum wage and McDonalds at $8 per hour. So much for Union jobs being better for the workers.
Check out your figures it is so easy to shoot down slick Willy's speeches I cannot believe anyone with an education would listen to him ramble about himself.
Gagrice, the UAW was busy making cars contributing to the nearly 19 million vehicle sales. GM, was #1 and the UAW, won contract gains and got a piece of the pie !!! Life was good here in Michigan, under William Jefferson Clinton !
Yeah, building crappy cars that ended up being the last GM vehicle for many.
The .com bubble is what made the economy under Clinton. I had a friend that had $800k in stock options from Sun Micro Systems 3 years out from college plus a 120K salary in 1998. To bad she didn't excersis them all, because most of her options and her job disappeared before Clinton left office. In 1995 I had a heck of a time finding a job out of college, I don't have to many fond memories during the '90's. Our income has over doubled since 2000 and our net worth has quadrupled. So yes, I can honestly say I'm better off today than I was 8 years ago, and that goes for all of my college buddies too.
In 1999 I was working as a marketing manager for an advertising in Akron, Oh and the market was dead. During 1999 almost all of our manufacturing accounts through out Ohio significantly cut their ad budgets. They were all screaming about competition from China. So the belief this all happened during the Bush admin is pure BS. The economy was slowing severely before Clinton left. My job was dead in late '99.
LTV steel moved it's head quarters to Cleveland 1993 and was struggling in the late 90's and bankrupt by 2001. Don't give me the BS that it's because of Bush.
Check out your figures it is so easy to shoot down slick Willy's speeches I cannot believe anyone with an education would listen to him ramble about himself.
"It is plausible to have a teachers aide in a classroom making min. wage helping our kids, while someone w/ a masters degree making LESS than min wage teaches them the lesson via the internet from India. "
Isn't that a good thing if his accent doesn't get in the way of teaching? Parents don't want to pay $50k a year for their kids' education; they just want their kids well educated . . . a little like, we consumers want good performing and reliable cars, the price is the obstacle not the goal of getting a new car. The real problem in the picture about education you mentioned above is, why the heck is education cost still so high when the teaching resources can be out-sourced? We know why: all the government subsidies and loan guarantees are bidding up the price of education . . . and enslaving graduates via long term debt that they won't be able to pay off until their own kids are in school . . . just like the real estate mortgage financing complex. Too many hanger-on's were getting rich off the education system (loans, overheads, building contracts, teacher's unions turning money over to political campaigns, local/state tax appropriation, etc.) that have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of education.
I do agree with you that Clinton got good results despite himself; although I do commend him for discarding Hilary after the healthcare debacle early in his first administration . . . okay, maybe not the discarding in his personal life :-) IMHO, having divided WhiteHouse vs. Capitol Hill, like 6 out of his 8 years, was a good thing.
There is a difference between worker productivity in terms of cars vs. worker productivity in terms how much money those cars can fetch. Yes, it's not entirely fair that current workers are paying for the disrepute that previous workers' products caused in the market place . . . but that's just a fact of life. Kids born in Bangladesh don't even get to choose where to be born . . . at least workers can choose what company to work for.
That's why IMHO, GM's survival (and consequently any hope of UAW member getting any part of their chushy deals materialized in their retirement, besides the federal Pension Guarantee Corp, which also might go bankrupt itself) has to be found overseas, where the big-Two brands are not tarnished as they are in the US. GM is doing great in China and Brazil; Ford is doing well in Europe and Russia.
Very good points. I just want to add that, in a competitive economy, both employees and companies are replaceable. Companies may well be "expendable" and employees are freed up for more productive employment by new companies. Unions were born at a time of giant industrial monopolies in the most productive industries at the time. Contrary to the popular political depiction of unionization resulting from low wages, autoworkers and steelworkers were in the most highly paid industries at the time. The prevailing technology at the time gave a huge advantage to economy of scale . . . so incumbent industrial giants had competitive advantage. Unions were organized to get a slice of that pie . . . the whole pie of course was at the expense of customers and would-be competitors.
As for selling rocket technology to foreigners, the technology was the property of private American companies, not of its government. The private companies (owners of the technology) wanted to sell some pieces of technology in exchange for access to overseas market, resources and labor. It's rather Communistic for the government to get in the way of that exchange. Just because you come up with a really clever idea doing something really important, the government shouldn't just be allowed to take it over. Frankly, IMHO, private companies are much better at keeping secrets than government bureacrats.
Ahhh, Rocky rocky rocky, be thou a slick Willy fan. But a little education please in regard to the budget surplus that is credited to thy Willy. It is false, bogus , doesn't exist. You really bought in to a budget surplus as reported by the CBO ? Please refer thyself to treasury.gov, specifcally national debt and you will see something inconguent . During the years of the so called surplus we added to national debt. Warning, Warning Will Robinson. To add to the national debt if there is a surplus is not possible. So here is a hard truth to acept. Every president since RR has added to the national debt which now stands at 9.5 Trillion dollars and is so big it now sucks 10% of all tax revenues just to pay the interest . Lest you think that small, all of health and human services is only 15%. Another hard truth, every president has zero to do with the state of the economy. They either get false credit or false blame .It's the economy stupid. = I'm running at the right time and George HW will get all the blame and I'll look like a hero. The power exists within an organization called the federal reserve, please google. Possibly also open market commitee. I don't care that Bill had a bj, but cigar smokers every where should be ashamed of his abuse of a good cigar.
"Ultimately, when it comes down to issues like this, even our union bosses will say " It's their company, and they can do what they want" "
hmm, isn't that time to look for a better employer? I mean, if you (rhetorical you, not you personally) think the ship is sinking, why stay with the Titanic and take part in the deck chair re-arrangement exercise?
"But you should ALSO be able to say "Sorry boss, I'm not putting my name on that POS, You do it!!!" without any fear of retribution. "
That's when you realize, the private enterprise has turned into a government bureacracy. There is no such thing as retribution. If the boss values your work more than the attitude he has to take from you, he keeps you; otherwise, he is free to find someone else, and you are free to find someone else to work for or start your own thing. Retribution, fear of retibution, and fear of regulatory slap-down in rebitution for retribution are all waste of time . . . getting in the way of real productive work relationships.
I've never been surrounded by so many people of wealth in my life as when I get on edmunds.com !!! I think many of you talk with paper [non-permissible content removed]$ and for some odd reason you aren't just anti-union, but are in denial of the broad prosperity of the 1990's. I know we can listen to marsha7, and others rah-rah-rah-rah, about how bad things were in the Clinton, years but the facts are the facts. George Dubya Bush, took surplus and flushed it down the toilet. Bill Clinton, handed him the reigns of the greatest economy in the history of the United States, and look what he's done with it 8 years later !!!!!! The Big 3 have bought out tens of thousands of union workers that actually made decent living and contributed to the economy. I love it when people like Marsha7, talk about those $12 hour jobs that Kia, has created and again I ask just what in the hell is someone on $12 an/hr. wage going to buy ??? If they live at home with their parents or a one-bedroom efficiency they might be able to afford the car they make. Under Bill Clinton, I was paying $0.72 for a gallon of gasoline in 1997 and 11 years later I was paying as much as $4.30 while Exxon Mobile, Haliburton, make record profits each new quarter and get a tax break to boot !!!! :mad:
The bottom line is you can call it false, bogus, or whatever you like but George W. Bush, was given a budget surplus gift from William Jefferson Clinton, something he originally planned on giving Al Gore. I don't see the evidence you obviously want me to see ??? I've remember the 1990's like they were yesterday and I remember myself, relatives, friends, always improving there situation. They got raises at work, or found better paying jobs as our economy expanded. The UAW, pushed for a 100% tariff on Japanese imports and the right-wing machine tore Bill Clinton, a new [non-permissible content removed] and labeled him a communist thus he backed away. I wasn't happy he didn't fight them but the republicans gained seats in congress and became the majority thus he didn't have much of a choice because the right-wing media machine funded by the oil cartel, hated his guts. However, it was okay for Reagan, to put a tariff on Harley Davidson's behalf against the japanese bike companies (Which I agreed with)or Bush, on the Steel Companies behalf and the people of your party don't say boo to that !!!! Why is that ??? :confuse:
I know my history quite well for somebody that was supposably in diapers all through the 80's and 90's !!! :P
"The Rock"
P.S. Marsha7, the problem is a lot of ya'll in the south will let one subject like unions, guns, abortion, consume ya'lls thought process and will lose focus on the big picture. Ya'll think those $12 an/hr. Kia, jobs are so great, eh ??? Got the world right by the [non-permissible content removed], huh ??? :confuse:
P.S.S.
Delwin: "I heard on the Fox News, that those communist, socialist, liberals wants to take my guns Henry, and we's gots to vote dos damn, no good, yankees out of office."
Henry: "But Delwin, this republican president is going to give our employer a huge tax break to move it to China, unless we take a 50% cut in pay and benefits."
Delwin: "Well don't you worry Henry, our company will take care of us and would never do that !!! Our boss is a good christian man, and a man of faith and loyalty. That type of stuff only happens to those yankee, mobster run, union folks in the north.
(6 months later) Henry: "What's for supper Delwin, Possum Soup or [non-permissible content removed] ???
Under Bill Clinton, I was paying $0.72 for a gallon of gasoline in 1997 and 11 years later I was paying as much as $4.30 while Exxon Mobile, Haliburton, make record profits each new quarter and get a tax break to boot !!!!
Rock, I doubt that Bush really was the one that got the rest of the world (China, Russia, etc) suddenly prosperous and buying / using oil for their vehicles. The price went up due to demand and a lack of supply. What is amazing to me is how fast we reached the tipping point.
In actuality I thought that Clinton pushed thru the free trade laws with the rest of the world. This act set off a sudden increase in imports and the loss of jobs here and a sudden increase in exports and gain of jobs there.
And as far as the oil companies. I read that they make $.07/gallon today. To me that is not the big factor in our now $3.75/gallon selling price.
Hey anybody know the profit per gallon 8 years ago vs. today? That would be an interesting number. Or another way what percentage of the retail price went into the oil companies bottom line?
As far as tariffs, we cannot pick and choose what we do fair trade with. We are a large part of the world economy but we will be getting much smaller and we cannot stick our heads in the sand and put out random tariffs. Yes we should make sure that our world competitors have fair work rules to trade with us. No kids working, safe products, etc. and I think our country should do a lot more there.
In actuality I thought that Clinton pushed thru the free trade laws with the rest of the world. This act set off a sudden increase in imports and the loss of jobs here and a sudden increase in exports and gain of jobs there.
History of the implementation
NAFTA was initially pursued by politicians in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries. In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House of Representatives passed NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by 234-200 vote (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor; 43 Republicans, 156 Democrats, and 1 independent against),[6] and the U.S. Senate passed it on the last day of its 1993 session, November 20, 1993, by 61-38 vote (34 Republicans and 27 Democrats voting in favor; 10 Republicans and 28 Democrats against, with 1 Democrat opponent not voting -- Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND), an ardent foe of NAFTA, missed the vote because of an illness in his family).[7]
It passed 62vetteefp, but it wasn't exactly popular. As I said the passage of NAFTA, was one of a few things I dislike about Bill Clinton, as he was a supporter and so was Al Gore. The republicans as you can see loved NAFTA.
And as far as the oil companies. I read that they make $.07/gallon today. To me that is not the big factor in our now $3.75/gallon selling price.
Hey anybody know the profit per gallon 8 years ago vs. today? That would be an interesting number. Or another way what percentage of the retail price went into the oil companies bottom line?
Got a link because that's impossible !!!! I know the profit margin per gallon for the independent gas station is not very much like $0.07 per gallon if they are lucky. My source is my brother who runs one. Are you sure that isn't what your information said ???? :surprise:
The highest quarterly profits in history all on a $0.07 profit margin ??? I would even agree with the oil man, and say that's some fuzzy math !!!!
The highest quarterly profits in history all on a $0.07 profit margin ??? I would even agree with the oil man, and say that's some fuzzy math !!!!
I googled around on the web, and found a statistic from 2005 that said the US uses about 320,500,000 gallons of gasoline per day. At 7 cents per gallon, that comes out to about $22M per DAY. Or about $8.2 BILLION per year. And that's just from gasoline in the United States. Let's not forget about jet fuel, oil, plastics, kerosene, and other petroleum products, plus the consumption of the rest of the world.
7 cents per gallon might not sound like much, but this is one of those cases where they really do make it up in volume.
The .SUV bubble has now burst and GM is the Biggest Looser. The UAW is blind to this because it builds what the Board directs...history repeats itself.
Trade with China was controlled less and less during the Clinton regime. Then it was opened up and Clinton gave away security technology. I recall that Chinese then had ability to hit part of US with nuclear missles and maybe multiple warhead missles. I recall the map of vulnerable areas of US in the Dayton Daily News. Thanks Bubba.
I recall articles about the clothing imports being circumvented by running the merchandise through a Central American county, maybe Mexico (surprise?) and then brought into the US. Whoops. There went the clothing manufacturer jobs. Hello Walmart.
It's sad to watch the obvious pandering to the vulnerable, poorly headed unions in the speech last night. A quick mention of certain unions by the candidate makes them all giddy that he's going to "fix" everything if only they can spend enough of their members' money to get him elected. The local union leader who is always on the news picketing republican events was probably trying to figure out how to get more money and register more ineligible, duplicate, or dead voters to up the vote for Ohio. The local mayor was quoted as saying "...America can change from the way it has been was demandingly given." She meant "commandingly" given. The same mayor tries to make any lack of enthusiasm about the candidate due to racism, rather than lack of experience or just being about words.
The local union leader (AFSCME) who's always in the news says "I'm more excited about change than any other time." Odd this came on the day that GM rejected the Ohio offer of $50 million in direct subsidy to do something with the Moraine plant due to be closed in or about 2010. He doesn't see the handwriting on the wall; he just sees the dues money to continue the operation of his union leadership job.
I see huge talk about saving and making good jobs with no real ability to effect that outcome. I see lots of tax and spend under the guise of development, and not much outcome. I see the media and labor unions loving this candidate if he were to win, but the reality will continue to be Dayton again: lose 200 good jobs reported in the newspaper followed by the local mayor gleefully announcing gaining 50 -200 minimum wage jobs as if she had just accomplished siting a new Honda plant at the Moraine location (which is actually outside her city, but the point is the same).
The unions are going to lose. This is not JFK or MLK who gave the speech last night. Labor should be asking more about history of the candidate's backing:
Profit dollars of the oil companies on low margins are easily explained. EVERYBODY, and I mean everybody, buys and uses oil. Simple as that.
I think another thing that might be confusing people is stock prices and earnings per share. For instance, Exxon/Mobil (XOM) closed at about $81.18 per share. It has a reported earnings per share of $8.09 per share. So that's about 10%! But that doesn't mean they're making a 10% profit, necessarily, on their products. It just means they're making enough profit that it comes out to about $8.09 per share. Of that, they pay $1.60 per share back to the stockholders.
Interestingly, if gas it $3.75/gal and they make 7 cents, that comes out to about 1.9%. Which is about the same percent as the dividend. ($1.60/$81.19)
>" I doubt that Bush really was the one that got the rest of the world (China, Russia, etc) suddenly prosperous and buying / using oil for their vehicles. The price went up due to demand and a lack of supply"
We agree on this one. Sad thing is that we can greatly increase our supply by drilling in known huge reserves. But the democrats are fighting furiously to keep that from happening. WHY? Right now, Gas at local stations is ranging from $3.46 to $3.59. A month ago it was in the $4.25 range. What is the difference? Could it be simply because there is a possibility that we might start drilling again. What would it drop to if we actually started drilling again? How many Americans would that put to work Rockee. What would that $700 Billion, we send out of the country every year to purchase oil from those who hate us, do for the economy?
>" I read that they make $.07/gallon today. To me that is not the big factor in our now $3.75/gallon selling price. "
Seems I read somewhere that the oil companies make 7% profit, and The feds make 18% (taxes) on gasoline. Anybody else know about this? FWIW a hardware store marks up 33%. Ever wonder how a clothing store can mark a $80 jacket down to $20? Or a shoe store mark down Nike shoes to half price and they still make a profit? Furniture is marked up about 400 %. So when they feature a $500 item for $250 they are still making 100%. Their cost was $125.
How can a car company mark down a $30K car to $21K ?
I don't begrudge the oil companies their 7 or 8%. I do begrudge Nancy Palosi and company for not raising the ban on drilling.
Recently a documentary revealed that Russia has gone from a state of bankruptcy during the Reagan years to one of the wealthiest nation on earth now. How? They are drilling and exporting their oil. Believe it or not!
Why can't we do the same, and use that money to pay off our tremendous debt?
Real simple! The dems want us to rely on the government and eventually become a socialist country. Even more than we already are.
Under Bill Clinton, I was paying $0.72 for a gallon of gasoline in 1997 and 11 years later I was paying as much as $4.30 while Exxon Mobile, Haliburton, make record profits each new quarter and get a tax break to boot !!!!
Your cheap gas in 1997 was the reason most of the Union guys in Alaska were laid off. The oil companies were not doing any exploration or additional production with oil at $10 barrel. So sure the UAW was flying high selling Suburbans and Tahoes, sucking down cheap gas. What kind of profit was GM making during those years? Did I hear Bill Clinton or anyone in Congress calling for windfall profit tax on GM? No all that happened was the greedy UAW went on strike when GM was trying to roll out their new models. Must have been tough in 1998 if the UAW workers had to go on strike against GM. You totally ignore that whenever it is mentioned.
If Bill Clinton did have a surplus why did WE add to the National Debt Every year of his Presidency? His gutting of the military was a false sense of security. Every base he closed represented people losing GOOD paying jobs. You only like to look at what is beneficial to you and Michigan. There are 49 other states that are just as important to the survival of the the United States. You should look beyond Grand Rapids.
Ever wonder how a clothing store can mark a $80 jacket down to $20? Or a shoe store mark down Nike shoes to half price and they still make a profit? Furniture is marked up about 400 %. So when they feature a $500 item for $250 they are still making 100%. Their cost was $125.
That doesn't necessarily mean that they're still making a huge profit. With clothing stores, the new styles come out every three months, and if they still have a bunch of old merchandise lying around taking up space, then they don't have the space to sell the new stuff. So in many cases, they could very well be selling that old stuff at a loss, simply to clear way for the new merchandise which will be more profitable.
I used to work for a department store, and I remember that when clothes got too far out out season and didn't sell in the clearance racks, they'd actually throw them in the big trash compactors and write it off! I always thought they should just donate the stuff to charity, but evidently it was more profitable (or perhaps less UNprofitable) to simply crush it. I think they got a bigger writeoff doing it that way.
Now some big ticket items, like furniture, actually DO have a big profit margin. But the merchandise also takes up a lot of floor and warehouse space in a store, which has to be taken into account.
I think many of you talk with paper [non-permissible content removed]$ and for some odd reason you aren't just anti-union, but are in denial of the broad prosperity of the 1990's.
Rock, I'm not denying the overall economy did well under Clinton, I'm just presenting a different point of view that isn't as rosy as yours. To say Bush inherited a sound economy when he took office is pure BS. But that's not to blame Clinton. It's the natural progression of the economic cycle. Recessions have and will always happen.
I'm just trying to bring you back to earth a bit to dispute that everyone was doing great during the '90s. Just like today, many are doing well, and many aren't.
In 1993, I was in my 3rd year of college. My dad's employer (he was in middle management at the time) was bought out. Fortunately, he was able to keep his job, but he did loose $20k/hr salary and his company car. I borrowed money and worked as much as I could to fund the remainder of my education. I (neither did my dad) didn't sit around and bit#$ and moan, or blame Clinton when my dad took a 30% pay cut. It motivated even harder to finish my education and be successful.
I have a different perspective than you, I grew up around the steel mills and they were severely hurting during that time, in the late 90's my FIL was just hoping the mill (LTV) would last long enough so he'd get his 30 year pension. It barely did filing bankruptcy in late 2000. The steel mills have done better under Bush than clinton, but they have all been reorganized and under new ownership, among many other things going on in the marketplace that has allowed them to make money.
It seems to me you gauge the entire US economy based on how UAW employers do. The US is way more diverse than that. Not to mention GM shaved many jobs during the '90's. Didn't the UAW strike over 1998 layoffs. Sounds like good times.
And yes, I am much better off now than in the 90's. In 1999, I had been 4 years removed from college and my wife only 2. So yeah, almost 10 years later, we're in a much better position. I don't credit bush for it, but our own personal effort and decisions. If you need a president to provide hope/opportunity for your future, you've already failed.
If you need a president to provide hope/opportunity for your future, you've already failed.
I could not have said it better.
Believing the promises of a politician, is about the same as believing the moon is made of green cheese. If the B3 and the UAW survive it will require hard work and much sacrifice on all the lower level management and Union members. The likelihood of people buying big SUVs in the numbers they did in the 1990s is highly improbable. There is not the same margin of profit in a Cobalt or Cruze as a Denali. Most of the smaller cars will be built off shore. If the UAW can control their urge to strike, maybe the Enclave and Malibu will give GM a chance to survive.
GM, in 1998 had a lot of good reasons to go out on strike !!! I could sit here and list them all like I've done in the past but it wouldn't matter to you !!! You think because your union never was forced to go out on stike because they were always making a killing on their profit margins and throwing you your $40 bucks an hour was like bread crumbs to big oil !!!! Your CEO's have always ate steak and we tax payers put the mushrooms on top with tax susidizes. I never hear you cry foul about the billions your republicans give big oil each year. What is it this year $18 billion ???? You gripe because GM, ruled the world with UAW made TRUCKS and SUV's under William Jefferson Clinton, and I took trips to a lot of different places in the 1990's with my grandmother. Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, were a few of the states I visited with my IUE grandmother !!! Remember, I wasn't just playing video games and sports, but was lucky to do a lot of traveling because again of my grandma. I also visted my family in Utah, Idaho, Oregon, Florida, during these times. I stayed the summer in Salt Lake City, with my great aunt and got a good eye opener at the ultra religious mormons and their republican, non-union way of thinking. Most of them drove imports, and thought they were a little better than everyone else :confuse:
As far as you imidazol97, go buddy ol' pal :P I will tell you first hand that don't blame Slick Willy, for China's missle technology advancements. If you turn back a page or two in time you will see that Raytheon, was building parts to the Patriot Missle over-sea's during the Reagan administration. The Chinese have 6,000 known front companies here in the U.S. and if Clinton, was giving them secrets like you and Rush Limbaugh, claim well why hasn't your favorite president Dubya Bush, cracked the whip ??? I know this to be factual lets just say from prior employment !!!! Lou Dobbs, spoke about it in one of his broadcasts and I shook my head up and down because I already knew !!! Look at where our military equipment is made now imidazol97 ??? Can you say China, China, China, China, and what has Bush, done about it ??? What will your Mises, candidate McCain, do about it ??? Where is the armored plating made ???? China, China, china, China, and as Duncan Hunter, said only one U.S. company that could make it for the military survives and their days are numbered. Gagrice, and I obviously don't agree on much but we do agree on the illegal alien/border issue, I think :surprise: and that at least our military equipment should be made here which was two staples of Duncan Hunter's, campaign and why he is still a MySpace friend of mine. Both he and Ron Paul, earned enough respect from me that I would of voted for either one of them. Ron Paul, had the edge because of his stance on the war and thus this socialist-democrat crossed over and voted for Mr. Paul.
I'd will admit it would be very hard for me to say in the general election that I wouldn't vote for Paul or Hunter. I disagree with them both on a lot of issues but some of the core issues that are important to me they have my support. Getting rid of the 30-40 million illegal aliens in this country and us citizens taking back our once high-paying union jobs like in the beef plants would be a blessing. I know Obama or McCain, will not address that issue as it would cost them the election. Maybe I will just have to run to fix all of it !!!! :P :P :P :P :P :P I know I can count on Marsha7's vote !!!! :P :P :P :P :P
GM, in 1998 had a lot of good reasons to go out on strike !!!
So times were not so good for the UAW in 1998? It seems no matter who is President the UAW is not happy. Or maybe they just like to strike. I cannot imagine a security guard going on strike making $60k per year. Unless he was over weight from too many Hostess Twinkies. I like to think as a Union shop steward, we were smarter than the company management we went up against. The last 26 years I worked for a small independent phone company with a Teamster contract. I could have made more if I wanted a job with one of the Oil Companies. I stayed with our company to build up my retirement. I'm happy I did.
Alaska depends on oil just as Michigan depends on the auto makers. What makes the auto industry any more important than the oil industry? They both provide jobs with good wages.
I really do not know how to address your travel ramblings. I don't think I would be proud to run around the country on the Union workers dues as it seems your grandmother did. That is much of what gives Unions a bad name.
They were but if you remember GM, still wanted to close plants and move them south of the border and the Delphi, spin-off wasn't complete. GM, made billions and the UAW, wanted a slice of the pie like the executives. If you also remember (which I'm sure you don't) GM, was billions behind on its pension contributions while fattening the wallets of the board of executives.
It seems no matter who is President the UAW is not happy.
There is a huge difference between pumping a black substance out of the ground and raping americans on profit margins and making a automobile thus I wouldn't expect you to understand. The automobile industry doesn't have the luxury of dividing up $40 billion profits each quarter and have the president right behind them :mad:
I cannot imagine a security guard going on strike making $60k per year.
You have nary a clue as to what I did and what I was exposed too protecting everyone's butt on this forum.
Unless he was over weight from too many Hostess Twinkies.
If that was directed at me well that is pretty low, gagrice. D.O.E. physical/mental health standards for Dept. Of Energy, Security Police Officer's is public knowledge.
I like to think as a Union shop steward, we were smarter than the company management we went up against. The last 26 years I worked for a small independent phone company with a Teamster contract. I could have made more if I wanted a job with one of the Oil Companies. I stayed with our company to build up my retirement. I'm happy I did.
Well does it really require a lot of intellegence to pump oil out of the ground ??? It's not like you have a lot of competition as their is more demand than supply. I personally believe you made the right choices staying with the phone company and I'm sure their isn't a lot of competition or phone company's in Alaska.
Alaska depends on oil just as Michigan depends on the auto makers. What makes the auto industry any more important than the oil industry? They both provide jobs with good wages.
The greed of the oil cartel, has cost this country millions of jobs. Oil, is energy and I know a lot of truck drivers that have gone belly up !!! Tourism, has taken a hit as well. It cost's people more money to heat, drive, turn on the lights, which means less disposable income for other things. I agree the oil industry in general pays their workers quite well. I'm not totally anti-oil as long as it's U.S. oil. I however believe Oil, is a out-dated energy source and while it should have it's importance as a viable energy source it shouldn't be the main source !!! Obama, will create 5 million green jobs many I'm sure will be union.
I really do not know how to address your travel ramblings. I don't think I would be proud to run around the country on the Union workers dues as it seems your grandmother did. That is much of what gives Unions a bad name.
My grandmother, was the educational director for four states and Ontario, Canada. She had to travel a lot for her job gagrice. i.e. contract negotiations, meetings in D.C. and well I got to go a long on some of her travels. The Teamster's international has the same set-up. My uncle is a Teamster. I have nary a clue as to what you mean gives unions a bad name. Ifit weren't for the union those employees that hate the union wouldn't be making the money, nor have the benefits, without it !!! Again, reality is most companies don't hand out money to non-union employees like the oil industry, and as smart as you are I would assume you would recognize like Toyota's workers (the non-union) workers were living of of ya'lls coat tails !!!
Go Palin, Union Member for VP.....
What the most inexperienced person to sit a heart beat away from the highest position in our country ???? :surprise: I love McCain's choice. He is sure playing his cards right because Obama, didn't pick Hillary. the only reason why Palin, is on the card is #1 She's a female and pretty face. #2 Uhhhhhhhh.... Uhhhhhhh....help me out gagrice, ha, ha, ha, ha !!!! All I can say is WOW !!! :surprise: I know deep down gagrice, you are really thinking you got to be kidding ???? You are just toeing the party line !!!
GM, made billions and the UAW, wanted a slice of the pie like the executives.
So you admit that it was greed by the UAW workers that caused all those problems at GM. It seems that after they did go back to work it was months before a decent vehicle came off the assembly line. It cost GM $billions in losses because of that strike. More than many oil companies make most years.
The automobile industry doesn't have the luxury of dividing up $40 billion profits
If memory serves me Toyota had $13 billion net profit in 2006. I would bet that is a higher percentage than the Oil companies made on their investment.
If that was directed at me well that is pretty low, gagrice.
It was directed at the Union members working for Pantex. Going on strike because some of the donut munching rent-a cops are over weight, does not make any sense to me. I say they should shape up or ship out. I don't want any over weight cop protecting our nukes from the likes of Osama bin Laden. For that kind of money the company should get a mean lean fighting machine. Its not like they are protecting a Walmart store.
I love McCain's choice.
Me too, even though the AP reporter said " she is no more qualified than Obama". I think she is better qualified. As Obama has done NOTHING.
I grew up in a town of 5,000 people and I couldn't even tell you who the mayor was, much less NOMINATE THEM FOR VP OF THE UNITED STATES. McClueless should lose on this if only the people don't falsely believe everyone, and I mean EVERYONE with half a brain is going in their stead to vote for Obama. Could a person be any more ignorant than McCain about was is going on about him, uhhh, uhhh...he scares me. At least Bush knew he was brash and hated, and a fake, and a liar...
So you admit that it was greed by the UAW workers that caused all those problems at GM.
I guess so if Rick Wagoner's and Jack Smith's knocking down $22 million between their salary's and stock options. If the company is telling you we aren't going to fund your pension plan, and by the way we are moving your plant south well they had mine and millions others support.
It seems that after they did go back to work it was months before a decent vehicle came off the assembly line.
HUH ??? Was their something wrong with the tens of thousands that they made I or anyone else doesn't know about ????
It cost GM $billions in losses because of that strike. More than many oil companies make most years.
Well actual put some people at the top with a brain, that kind of stuff won't happen. GM, blew billions of dollars on acquiring and selling companies but those executives got their pay and thus why shouldn't the UAW, workers. I don't want to hear you cry about what the oil companies didn't make most years. Your not going to get a crying violin, from me !!!
If memory serves me Toyota had $13 billion net profit in 2006. I would bet that is a higher percentage than the Oil companies made on their investment.
As far as the $13 Billion goes your oil cartel are making more than double that in 3 months. Also that $13 billion is the profit margin for one year for toyota, not 3 months. As much as that is it's really a apples to oranges arguement !!!
They (Toyota) got away with hiding their recalls for a decade, get billons in tax dollars to throw togeather plants in the south, have a government (Japan) that subsidizes it's automobile sector like we do our oil industry. Japan, also manipulates it's currency, and currently has/had in place trade barriers which all contributes/adds to GM's troubles.
It was directed at the Union members working for Pantex. Going on strike because some of the donut munching rent-a cops are over weight, does not make any sense to me.
Well lemme tell you Mr. Gagrice, we were and they are still the best armed security force in the world, pal !!! I was in pretty damn good shape, just like everyone else there. We had a 401K retirement plan which you damn well know is like playing craps in Vegas, and we went on strike #1 because they were trying to raise our health insurance from $140 a month to $800.00 a month. Remember that $60K salary was 13 hour swing shifts or $21.36 an hour. You kill me for having the gull to criticize other people about job qualifications when I guarantee my armed security police officer job at Pantex, was a lot tougher mentally, physically, took way more qualifications to land than some over paid $40 an/hr. phone job in Alaska, probably which the average teamster ate himself to death just to keep warm !!! What did ya'll do in the winter time besides drink pots of coffee and inhale down a couple dozen dognuts ???? I really can't believe the comments from you, OMG !!! :surprise: WOW !!! :surprise:
I say they should shape up or ship out. I don't want any over weight cop protecting our nukes from the likes of Osama bin Laden.
Well you tell that to the thousands of people that had, currently, or will have, beryllium disease !!! Not to mention you tell that to all the people that have came down with cancer. As I said before you have nary a clue !!! Also Osama, doesn't need Pantex, for nukes. I'm sure the Bush, family sent him some for christmas if you know what I really mean because it's funny how this one super tall arab guy with a crowd around him that stands and has his picture plastered all around the world can some how keep escaping all this advanced surveilliance equipment and never get caught, yet we can read the words on a golf ball from outer space.... Hmmmmmmmm !!!! ......Gagrice, It wouldn't have anything to do with the Bin Ladens and Bush families extra warm relations possibly would it ??? imidazol97, wants to accuse Clinton, of giving secrets away to China ??? :surprise:
For that kind of money the company should get a mean lean fighting machine. Its not like they are protecting a Walmart store.
That's pretty much what you had for the most part !!! You couldn't work there without having prior experience in the military or law enforcement. The elderly SPO's migrate to a job with in the plant, once their body's are finished. Most folks can't run and gun forever. We tried to get a federal 20 year retirement and if we would of went federal it would of saved the Dept. Of Energy and it's tax payers $1 Billion dollars D.O.E. wide but people like your good buddy Bush, have friends that donatedlarge sums of money to keep the contract private.
I love McCain's choice.
Me too, even though the AP reporter said " she is no more qualified than Obama". I think she is better qualified. As Obama has done NOTHING.
Well at least when Obama, does do something he's right. It's either just luck or he is a man of real intellectual thinking. I thought Obama, gave the farm away selecting Biden, but compared to McCain's selection the dems are taking back the White House, in 2008 and Obama, will clean up this country and unions will have the FREEDOM OF CHOICE ACT PASSED !!!!! :shades:
McClueless should lose on this if only the people don't falsely believe everyone, and I mean EVERYONE with half a brain is going in their stead to vote for Obama. Could a person be any more ignorant than McCain about was is going on about him, uhhh, uhhh...he scares me. At least Bush knew he was brash and hated, and a fake, and a liar...
Not unlike Clinton who was in Stealth Mode because of his excellent charisma and speaking skills. No Lies at all in the 2 terms. Give us all a break.
Think how Clinton would have handled 9/11...Slick talk but no action would have led to even more attacks! Like Jimmy Carter in the hostage crisis...one more helicopter would have done it! PLEASE!
And who had heard of Obama a year and a half ago? You will be surprised. At least she has had some experience running a state. OBAMA has not run anything but his mouth up till now.
You kill me for having the gull to criticize other people about job qualifications when I guarantee my armed security police officer job at Pantex, was a lot tougher mentally, physically, took way more qualifications to land than some over paid $40 an/hr. phone job in Alaska
There are openings right now. Just get on the books at the Teamsters Local 959. They would love to dispatch a couple qualified technicians. It only pays $38 per hour with full medical and $7 per hour in the retirement. Plus 3% matching in a 401K. You work 21 days straight 10 hours per day and then 3 weeks off. Great job if you are qualified. And can stand working outside at 50 below zero without whining. Unlike the UAW we get our contracts RIGHT before we sign on for another 3 years. So no strikes needed.
Strikes never pay. My last one was 1968 with the CWA. Out for 2 weeks and got a nickle raise. Exactly what Pacific Telephone offered before the strike. Now you can tell us how much you got by going on strike.
"I just want to add that, in a competitive economy, both employees and companies are replaceable. Companies may well be "expendable" and employees are freed up for more productive employment by new companies"...good point
I stand corrected, as the theory of "Creative Destruction" will also eliminate the bad companies that cannot evolve and survive...
But, in the short run, the company will shed unnecessary or worthless workers in an attempt to survive, then the compnay goes down if survival is not possible...
It comes down to this...the individual worker depends on the company more than the company depends on the individual worker...employees need the employer more than the emploer needs the specific employee...that is why the employees line up on Friday for their paychecks, and the company must issue them, whether it has been a good collection week or not...
That is why most employees never have a clue as to what it takes to make a company run...and should not have any rights in running the company...
rocky: You live in a unionized bubble, and that is all you will ever see...Bill Clinton's economy was based on fraudulent dot coms that crashed in March 2000 once revealed that they had no sales, no assets, no NOTHING...Clinton's economy was a mirage, as it lost 5 (or was it 8?) TRILLION dollars of welth when the Nasdaq crashed from 5000 down to 1200 (???)...Pets.com was symbolic of the mirage, when all they had for their billion dollar market cap was a puppet of a dog and some slick ads...
BTW, don't forget that ALL, not some, of the fraud happened under Clinton...it was the Bush administration that brought all those guys like Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers and others to justice, tried them and sent them all to prison...
FWIW...if Clinton did balance the budget, it was because he had the Republicans who had control as of 1995... back when Republicans acted like Republicans...they also gave us welfare reform, which Clinton vetoed 3-4 times...
rocky: it is simple...your youth and the diaper brigade are coming back to bite you in the XXXXX...
"The .SUV bubble has now burst and GM is the Biggest Looser. The UAW is blind to this because it builds what the Board directs...history repeats itself. "
Well, if that's so, how do you explain the arrival of the Kia Borrego at a time when nobody's selling those behemoths??
"FWIW...if Clinton did balance the budget, it was because he had the Republicans who had control as of 1995... back when Republicans acted like Republicans...they also gave us welfare reform, which Clinton vetoed 3-4 times... "
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Clinton get countries like Japan to pay billions in payments for our role in liberating Kiwait prior to the repubs taking over Congress?
Well they only raised the health insurance premium on 3% a year to a maximum 10% over the life ofthe contract. They however made up for it somewhat in their raise. the funny thing was they tried to fight us on the physical fitness standards but right after the strike the whole D.O.E. decided to change the standards. It wasn't a good contract by any means but was a lot better than we were looking at if we would of accepted their offer with huge cuts in health benefits, 401K retirement. It also got national media attention and gagrice, the secretary of energy was catching heat from congress. Ted Kennedy, came to our defense and said to D.O.E. what in the hell are you guys doing to those guys after he met with our union and saw the contract proposal. He said to Teddy, no union is going to tell me how to run my department. Teddy, gave him a [non-permissible content removed] chewing and last I heard D.O.E. is missing several million that was suppose to go to federalize us and well it never happened. Many in congress already thought we were federalized because well that was what D.O.E. told them. Bart Stupak, congressman from Michigan, got really involved and went so far to draw up a bill to federalize D.O.E. security last year. Last I heard it's still pending. The contract you had sounds pretty good. The 21 days in a row must of been a killer. I've done that a few times in my life and it isn't fun !!! I guess you have to look at all the money you made.
I agree strikes are never fun but getting skated on contracts and taking the back seat while the CEO's of these huge multi-national companies are helping themselves to huge pay raises well isn't fair. I guess since you've never had to face that situation it might be hard for you to comprehend.
BTW, don't forget that ALL, not some, of the fraud happened under Clinton...it was the Bush administration that brought all those guys like Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers and others to justice, tried them and sent them all to prison...
Those slaps on the wrist for a couple executives ???? Why isn't Alan Dawes and J.T. Battenburg III not in a cell ??? It's all one giant Facade !!!
rocky: it is simple...your youth and the diaper brigade are coming back to bite you in the XXXXX...
Marsha7, I think you're referring to yourself only with your age. I think it's the depends factor as your memory has gone bad from too much Rush !!!! :P
I agree strikes are never fun but getting skated on contracts and taking the back seat while the CEO's of these huge multi-national companies are helping themselves to huge pay raises well isn't fair. I guess since you've never had to face that situation it might be hard for you to comprehend.
You spend entirely too much of your mental energy worrying about what the CEO makes. You know if you divided his salary amongst the workers it would be NOTHING. And yes we faced strikes several times over my 37 years in the Teamsters. We went as long as a year and a half without a contract while still negotiating. We had work slowdowns. NEVER went on strike and never lost a penny in wages. We always got retro active pay. The UAW needs to learn how to negotiate without striking. It only hurts the workers. Does Fiddlefinger do without a paycheck while his UAW workers are out on strike? I bet not.
As far as security for military weapon sites. I just don't know. The real problem with Civil Service is they just keep hiring more people to do the same job. I watched it next door at the FAA site in Prudhoe Bay. They had 6 people on shift to handle less work than should have been done by one or two people. If the average guy knew how screwed up the VOR & flight radar system into that site was most of the time. They would not fly in there. And that costs you and I tax dollars. With a contractor you can limit that much easier. Our government is so over bloated with people doing nothing it is sickening. Most government agencies will have a couple people busting their butts and a dozen sitting on their hands. All jobs protected by a Union.
You and I just have about a 180 degree out view of what should be expected of a working man or woman. I look around where I am working and say how much can I make doing what I am doing. Then go into negotiations with the facts and figures of what that job pays in our location. You seem to think the worker should make a percentage of what the CEO makes regardless of the going wage. That kind of thinking by the UAW has cost them over a million jobs in the last 30 years. The UAW peaked in 1979 with 1.5 million workers and headed down hill. The Democrats including Teddy controlled the Congress during all that period up to 1995. That is when the American people said enough is enough. You like to blame everything on the government. When will the UAW accept they have played a part in the demise of the Big 3 and the American loss of manufacturing? Just because the UAW worker was the highest paid industry in the 1960s does not mean they can maintain that standard forever. When you are high paid people want your job. That makes for competition. Why do you think there are millions of people swarming across our borders looking for work? Why do you suppose Obama and Hillary refuse to denounce those workers, and refuse them any rights? Why do they pander to people that will do the job cheaper than your or I?
Yet, Palin has more executive experience than the other three president/VP candidates combined! Obama, Biden and McCain combined can't put together a single year of being either a Mayor or a Governor, where a real public budget with multiple departments have to be run. Palin happens to be the most popular governor among all 50 states, with approval rating hovering around 80-90%!
Frankly, IMHO, McCain should yield the presidential candidacy to Palin, and ask nicely to be her VP. LOL!
Comments
I've been a long time lurker on the forums, but I just decided to finally start posting in some of the discussions. I really enjoy all the different points of view. Rocky would probably call me a fascist if we got into a political discussion, and marsha7 would dog me for wasting my money on crappy domestic cars, but I'd still enjoy shooting the breeze with all of ya!
gagrice: always like reading your posts
kipk: someday rocky will learn that the only job of the union is to featherbed and slow down the work force...he denies it daily, yet has no comprehension how the union has made this country more INEFFICIENT by the day...anytime the union consents to anything that improves production, they go from being extremely inefficient to badly inefficient...all you guys who post your personal experiences matches exactly what I have said and known about unions for 30 years...
rocky: you were raised in a union family, and probably really know very little else...kinda like the person raised under communism...they only know their system but have a vague idea of what capitalism is about...being union, you know very little about non-union or the rotten things the union has done to companies and corporations...when you grow up non-union, and then spend 10 years immersed in the union playground of Detroit and see the junk, it is an eye opening experience...all the horrors of the union are posted here, but you just look the other way...
Again we are discussing old data and the misperceptions continue. I also spent 3 summers in GM engine plants(77,78,79). Same story, worked for 4 hours to get quota and then go to the bar until shift was done(not me, the full timers) (3rd shift). This is not the case anymore. GM is still working to reduce the restrictive work rules because there are still some around. BUT you will not see an assembly plant line go down because an electrician is not available to change a light bulb. Also GM got tid of most all their non assembly plants. Still build thier own engines/trans/sheet metal but they get their other parts from the same sources as all the other OEM's.
And now that GM is getting the union cost (wages/health care/benis) down the cost/vehicle will be much closer. While 3 years ago there was easily a $2500 difference due to assembly plant costs alone that number will be virtually equal.
http://leaninsider.productivitypress.com/2008/06/harbour-report-us-automakers-im- - prove.html
The latest Harbour Report is out, showing gains in productivity by the U.S. automakers and a narrowing of the gap in productivity between U.S. and Japanese car companies.
But the report also suggests that, in some respects, those gains are not entirely meaningful.
According to the firm’s news release, here are some of the latest findings:
Driven by more consistent, leaner processes and buyouts of tens of thousands workers, the Detroit Three automakers in 2007 nearly erased the productivity deficit against their Japanese-based competitors, despite declining production and shrinking market share.
The difference among the Big Six from the most to least productive in terms of total manufacturing labor (Assembly, Stamping, Engine and Transmission) has dropped to 3.50 hours per vehicle (or about $260 per vehicle), down from 10.51 hours (or $790 per vehicle) in 2003.
Chrysler showed the biggest improvement, cutting its total manufacturing labor hours per vehicle by 7.7% to 30.37, the same number recorded by Toyota.
I rail against the UAW, simply because, in the last 30 years or so, they have been a hindrance to productivity and excellence in Big 3 auto quality...whether stupid restrictive work rules, 2 year grievance processes to get rid of the super-worthless workers, workers sending out the "word" that we must work slower or they will expect good work habits (Ha!!!) all the time...yada, yada, yada...I think the union has become too powerful and has brought this on themselves, as a number of the jobs, like floorsweeping, simply are not worth over $5/hour no matter who does it, including me...
Having said that, I want you to know that I really do root for the home team, the Big 3, to survive, do well, and hopefully thrive...closing plants, dumping worthless workers will get them on the way, but filing Chapter 11 and voiding those contracts will jump start them...
It is more important for the company to survive than the union or the workers, which must be seen as expendable, especially if their habits are counterproductive to a good product...I am surprised that Ch 11 has not been done by now...
I see a leaner and more efficient work force in the future, with their own 401K plans so they can save for their own retirement instead of a pension plan with health care at no out-of-pocket expense, which they have had for years...no more, as world competition simply will not allow it...let each person put away for their own pension and be, heaven forbid, responsible for themselves...
So, don't think because I am enamored with my Hondas, and admire the imports, that I want to see the demise of the Big 3...absolutely not...the demise of the union is in the cards, likely in the near future...they were needed in the 30s and 40s, they are now a relic of the past that must die like the dinosaurs that also could not survive as the environment changed, but they could not evolve to do so, so must the UAW move on to the next life...
But I want the Big 3 to make the best products, like Malibu, CTS, MKS, Taurus, etc....I criticize the home team because I believe that they got fat, happy, and arrogant, but I believe they will make a far superior product in the future, as the buying market demands it and will not tolerate anything less...now that they finally see the imports as a threat to their very survival, not just a few market share points, they will shape up and meet the competition head on...
May the UAW-RIP...
Rocky, with all due respect, the rose colored glasses need to come off w/ this guy AND his wife.
The '90's were as good as they were because of LOW interest rates fueling a rebounding economy, and the Telecom act of '96 fueling the .com boom. Bill was FAR from the worst president we had, but far from the worst too.
3 things bother me about the Clinton regime: NAFTA, his Lewinski-ing the Chinese (IIRC, HE gave them favored nation status, or at least greased the skids for that happening), and how the Telecom act has made long distance SO DAMN CHEAP, that jobs we once held can be done overseas far too cheap. It is plausible to have a teachers aide in a classroom making min. wage helping our kids, while someone w/ a masters degree making LESS than min wage teaches them the lesson via the internet from India.
After 20 years on this Bush/Clinton roller coaster, I'm ready to get off (someone PLEASE get me a barf bag) :sick:
Bob, I don't see that happening any time soon. One reason: While I believe they will have to make historical concessions in the future, they will do it to ensure their survival. At some point in time the pendulum will swing too far in the favor of the employers, and SOMEBODY is going to have to stand up to them. If they go, then I wonder if we'll see a repeat of the violence of the '30's to get them back in.
I look at it this simply: if big corporations can lobby Congress and be successful, then the only people that will lobby for the worker (at the congressional level) will be a union. I doubt any Congressman would give you or I the time of day unless they were whoring a vote.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm not going to lie and say I'm not a Bill Clinton, fan. I love Slick-Willy, as the right-wing calls him !!! Watching him deliver that speech of perfection last night was a flash-back to how good things werein this country and if Gore, would of been elected and not cheated in 2000 or that Clinton, didn't have the 22nd admendment to stop his reign as president, this country would not be in as much trouble as it is now !!!
Bill Clinton, has some faults and did some things I'm not proud of but his accomplishments IMHO by far out-weigh his faults.
Gagrice, the UAW was busy making cars contributing to the nearly 19 million vehicle sales. GM, was #1 and the UAW, won contract gains and got a piece of the pie !!! Life was good here in Michigan, under William Jefferson Clinton !!!! Also I did a little research and your high unemployment quote gagrice, is not factual. Bill Clinton, had the lowest national unemployment percentage since the great depression !!!!
Marsha7,
you can keep all your anti-union rah-rah-rah, but that doesn't change the facts I pointed out to you earlier. I think 62vetteefp, pretty much has laid out the facts and you don't like it. Perhaps, instead of knocking my age and trying to claim I'm to young to remember and just take a big ol' swig of Geritol, :P just perhaps if you squint through those cataracts that one company in Detroit, in the 1980's isn't everyone !!!
"The Rock"
We are one big, happy family, imidazol97 !!!
-Rocky
In the 1930s the workers had some serious issues to deal with. As a result of those strong people we have many laws protecting workers. A few stupid employers may try to work people without mandatory breaks and no overtime. By law there should be a poster in every work location letting workers know their rights under those laws. Any sweat shops in the USA are illegal and staffed by illegal aliens. You are seeing a crackdown on some of those shops over the last few weeks. I don't see any weaknesses in the labor laws currently on the books. Most places are paying above minimum wage to get workers. The labor situation in this country is getting acute. We do not have enough people to do all the jobs. Many are entry level. They all have levels of management that pay pretty well. When you can make $60k to $70k managing a burger place with just a HS education that ain't too bad. Or $70k a year as a security guard with great benefits. We have a way too large civil service force that are all over paid from what I see being done. In the history of our country, people have it better now than ever. Just reading a book on the early Republic. It talks about the depression of 1819. 75% unemployment in Philadelphia. Today the state of Pennsylvania has an overall lower unemployment than it did in the 1990s. Most counties less than 5.5% of the people unemployed.
http://www.bls.gov/ro3/palaus.htm
As for Michigan. We have some people with short memories. They forgot how bad it was in the late 1970s until the mid 1980s. Michigan had unemployment close to 17% as a result of the Carter administration failed policies. Michigan is still much better off today than it was in 1980. High oil prices, big vehicles do not sell. Big 3 sells BIG Vehicles.
Ask the people of Hawaii what they think of the last administration. They are a lot better off now than throughout the 1990s. From 6% most of the 1990s to as low a 2.3% unemployment under the current administration.
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&ser- ies_id=LASST15000003
But at some point, the Big 3 (2?) will not tolerate strikes anymore, by simply closing a plant and moving the jobs to join the others, or by filing Ch 11, voiding any union contract, and starting over with new employees...some posters write about how well-trained the UAW is, I would surmise that training new employees would not take too long, considering that they are training us "ignorant Southerners" (as some think we are) to make Kias, Hon, Toy, BMW, MB, etc...so if you can train the ignorant in the South, surely you could dump all the current union employees and replace them in a heartbeat with newly trained people...and those newly trained people would hardly think of a strike, simply because they would know that they got THEIR jobs because of a strike where they dumped their predecessors...so the new employees would know that the Sword of Damocles hangs over their collective heads, as they could lose those jobs as easily as they got those jobs...
I also wonder about the pendulum swinging back for the same reason as stated above...from 1900 to 1970s, we had the market to ourselves and we were the ones left standing after each world war, so we were the only market to sell to and we made it all, so the union in the 30s and 40s could rebel and had power...
Now, with so much work going elsewhere, I really question whether a company can unionize en masse, since any maker worth their salt will tell the unionites that "they can have their union, but too bad you no longer have jobs" as they will move the plant...the employee is the expendable unit simply because if the company does not exist, nobody has a job...if the company exists, then people can be employed...I think Eastern Airlines is a fine example...they wanted more than the market could pay, especially in the era of deregulation...so, they struck Eastern...Eastern is now gone, and so are the jobs of EVERYBODY that worked there...so, the Machinists Union certainly flexed its muscle, and, with an IQ somewhere below "imbecile" killed the copany and all the jobs that went with it, from pilots, to machinists, to mechanics, to flight attendants, to ticket agents, to baggage handlers, etc...so, the ONLY thing the union was good for was to destroy the jobs of everybody...I see the UAW as no different, but they have not managed to kill the Big 3 yet, but they sure are trying their hardest...
Unless the employees are truly suicidal like Eastern, the rule is simple...employees are expendable, the company is not...or, said another way, it took one Henry Ford to make Ford Motor, with a hundred thousand people having jobs from his genius...but one hundred thousand people WITHOUT the Henry Ford would simply be homeless...employees are interchangeable but Henry Ford was virtually irreplaceable...that is the true difference between employees and employers...employers CREATE the job machine, employees simply fill a gap, and if one employee leaves, they can be replaced by another nameless employee...
And, yes, he needs to take off those rose colored glasses...the only reason why China can send rockets into space was the treason by Clinton in selling them rocket technology they would have needed 50 years to steal...he bypassed the State Department by sending it thru the Commerce Department, run by his buddy, Ron Brown...he sold them the technology as they illegally paid millions into his campaign fund by thousands of $1,000 checks from families named Wang or Chin...Clinton should be tried for treason and shot at dawn...
Not sure where you got your info. Probably from one of his speeches that are easily debunked.
Fact: There were 66.2 million workers in Jan 1993 when Bill Clinton took office. In Jan 2001 when he left office there was 67.2 million people working. Now if he added 22 million jobs he also lost 21 million jobs. Today there are 66.1 million people working. Plus 12 million undocumented illegal aliens. I see that as a net gain in the workforce of 11 million jobs. The average farm worker legal and illegal in CA is making just under $12 per hour. If we could get the young people away from the video games long enough to do some work there are jobs for them. I don't know of any company in CA that is paying minimum wage except the Union grocery clerks. They thought they could better themselves with a strike and lost a lot of money for 83,000 workers. Now they start at minimum wage and McDonalds at $8 per hour. So much for Union jobs being better for the workers.
Check out your figures it is so easy to shoot down slick Willy's speeches I cannot believe anyone with an education would listen to him ramble about himself.
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&ser- ies_id=LNS11300000
Yeah, building crappy cars that ended up being the last GM vehicle for many.
The .com bubble is what made the economy under Clinton. I had a friend that had $800k in stock options from Sun Micro Systems 3 years out from college plus a 120K salary in 1998. To bad she didn't excersis them all, because most of her options and her job disappeared before Clinton left office. In 1995 I had a heck of a time finding a job out of college, I don't have to many fond memories during the '90's. Our income has over doubled since 2000 and our net worth has quadrupled. So yes, I can honestly say I'm better off today than I was 8 years ago, and that goes for all of my college buddies too.
In 1999 I was working as a marketing manager for an advertising in Akron, Oh and the market was dead. During 1999 almost all of our manufacturing accounts through out Ohio significantly cut their ad budgets. They were all screaming about competition from China. So the belief this all happened during the Bush admin is pure BS. The economy was slowing severely before Clinton left. My job was dead in late '99.
LTV steel moved it's head quarters to Cleveland 1993 and was struggling in the late 90's and bankrupt by 2001. Don't give me the BS that it's because of Bush.
Isn't that the truth.
Isn't that a good thing if his accent doesn't get in the way of teaching? Parents don't want to pay $50k a year for their kids' education; they just want their kids well educated . . . a little like, we consumers want good performing and reliable cars, the price is the obstacle not the goal of getting a new car. The real problem in the picture about education you mentioned above is, why the heck is education cost still so high when the teaching resources can be out-sourced? We know why: all the government subsidies and loan guarantees are bidding up the price of education . . . and enslaving graduates via long term debt that they won't be able to pay off until their own kids are in school . . . just like the real estate mortgage financing complex. Too many hanger-on's were getting rich off the education system (loans, overheads, building contracts, teacher's unions turning money over to political campaigns, local/state tax appropriation, etc.) that have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of education.
I do agree with you that Clinton got good results despite himself; although I do commend him for discarding Hilary after the healthcare debacle early in his first administration . . . okay, maybe not the discarding in his personal life :-) IMHO, having divided WhiteHouse vs. Capitol Hill, like 6 out of his 8 years, was a good thing.
That's why IMHO, GM's survival (and consequently any hope of UAW member getting any part of their chushy deals materialized in their retirement, besides the federal Pension Guarantee Corp, which also might go bankrupt itself) has to be found overseas, where the big-Two brands are not tarnished as they are in the US. GM is doing great in China and Brazil; Ford is doing well in Europe and Russia.
Very good points. I just want to add that, in a competitive economy, both employees and companies are replaceable. Companies may well be "expendable" and employees are freed up for more productive employment by new companies. Unions were born at a time of giant industrial monopolies in the most productive industries at the time. Contrary to the popular political depiction of unionization resulting from low wages, autoworkers and steelworkers were in the most highly paid industries at the time. The prevailing technology at the time gave a huge advantage to economy of scale . . . so incumbent industrial giants had competitive advantage. Unions were organized to get a slice of that pie . . . the whole pie of course was at the expense of customers and would-be competitors.
As for selling rocket technology to foreigners, the technology was the property of private American companies, not of its government. The private companies (owners of the technology) wanted to sell some pieces of technology in exchange for access to overseas market, resources and labor. It's rather Communistic for the government to get in the way of that exchange. Just because you come up with a really clever idea doing something really important, the government shouldn't just be allowed to take it over. Frankly, IMHO, private companies are much better at keeping secrets than government bureacrats.
CBO ? Please refer thyself to treasury.gov, specifcally national debt and you will see something inconguent . During the years of the so called surplus we added to national debt.
Warning, Warning Will Robinson. To add to the national debt if there is a surplus is not possible.
So here is a hard truth to acept. Every president since RR has added to the national debt which now stands at 9.5 Trillion dollars and is so big it now sucks 10% of all tax revenues just to pay the interest . Lest you think that small, all of health and human services is only 15%. Another hard truth,
every president has zero to do with the state of the economy. They either get false credit or false blame .It's the economy stupid. = I'm running at the right time and George HW will get all the blame and I'll look like a hero. The power exists within an organization called the federal reserve, please google. Possibly also open market commitee. I don't care that Bill had a bj, but cigar smokers every where should be ashamed of his abuse of a good cigar.
hmm, isn't that time to look for a better employer? I mean, if you (rhetorical you, not you personally) think the ship is sinking, why stay with the Titanic and take part in the deck chair re-arrangement exercise?
"But you should ALSO be able to say "Sorry boss, I'm not putting my name on that POS, You do it!!!" without any fear of retribution. "
That's when you realize, the private enterprise has turned into a government bureacracy. There is no such thing as retribution. If the boss values your work more than the attitude he has to take from you, he keeps you; otherwise, he is free to find someone else, and you are free to find someone else to work for or start your own thing. Retribution, fear of retibution, and fear of regulatory slap-down in rebitution for retribution are all waste of time . . . getting in the way of real productive work relationships.
The bottom line is you can call it false, bogus, or whatever you like but George W. Bush, was given a budget surplus gift from William Jefferson Clinton, something he originally planned on giving Al Gore. I don't see the evidence you obviously want me to see ??? I've remember the 1990's like they were yesterday and I remember myself, relatives, friends, always improving there situation. They got raises at work, or found better paying jobs as our economy expanded. The UAW, pushed for a 100% tariff on Japanese imports and the right-wing machine tore Bill Clinton, a new [non-permissible content removed] and labeled him a communist thus he backed away. I wasn't happy he didn't fight them but the republicans gained seats in congress and became the majority thus he didn't have much of a choice because the right-wing media machine funded by the oil cartel, hated his guts. However, it was okay for Reagan, to put a tariff on Harley Davidson's behalf against the japanese bike companies (Which I agreed with)or Bush, on the Steel Companies behalf and the people of your party don't say boo to that !!!! Why is that ??? :confuse:
I know my history quite well for somebody that was supposably in diapers all through the 80's and 90's !!! :P
"The Rock"
P.S. Marsha7, the problem is a lot of ya'll in the south will let one subject like unions, guns, abortion, consume ya'lls thought process and will lose focus on the big picture. Ya'll think those $12 an/hr. Kia, jobs are so great, eh ??? Got the world right by the [non-permissible content removed], huh ??? :confuse:
P.S.S.
Delwin: "I heard on the Fox News, that those communist, socialist, liberals wants to take my guns Henry, and we's gots to vote dos damn, no good, yankees out of office."
Henry: "But Delwin, this republican president is going to give our employer a huge tax break to move it to China, unless we take a 50% cut in pay and benefits."
Delwin: "Well don't you worry Henry, our company will take care of us and would never do that !!! Our boss is a good christian man, and a man of faith and loyalty. That type of stuff only happens to those yankee, mobster run, union folks in the north.
(6 months later) Henry: "What's for supper Delwin, Possum Soup or [non-permissible content removed] ???
"The Rock" :P
Rock, I doubt that Bush really was the one that got the rest of the world (China, Russia, etc) suddenly prosperous and buying / using oil for their vehicles. The price went up due to demand and a lack of supply. What is amazing to me is how fast we reached the tipping point.
In actuality I thought that Clinton pushed thru the free trade laws with the rest of the world. This act set off a sudden increase in imports and the loss of jobs here and a sudden increase in exports and gain of jobs there.
And as far as the oil companies. I read that they make $.07/gallon today. To me that is not the big factor in our now $3.75/gallon selling price.
Hey anybody know the profit per gallon 8 years ago vs. today? That would be an interesting number. Or another way what percentage of the retail price went into the oil companies bottom line?
As far as tariffs, we cannot pick and choose what we do fair trade with. We are a large part of the world economy but we will be getting much smaller and we cannot stick our heads in the sand and put out random tariffs. Yes we should make sure that our world competitors have fair work rules to trade with us. No kids working, safe products, etc. and I think our country should do a lot more there.
History of the implementation
NAFTA was initially pursued by politicians in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries. In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House of Representatives passed NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by 234-200 vote (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor; 43 Republicans, 156 Democrats, and 1 independent against),[6] and the U.S. Senate passed it on the last day of its 1993 session, November 20, 1993, by 61-38 vote (34 Republicans and 27 Democrats voting in favor; 10 Republicans and 28 Democrats against, with 1 Democrat opponent not voting -- Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND), an ardent foe of NAFTA, missed the vote because of an illness in his family).[7]
It passed 62vetteefp, but it wasn't exactly popular. As I said the passage of NAFTA, was one of a few things I dislike about Bill Clinton, as he was a supporter and so was Al Gore. The republicans as you can see loved NAFTA.
And as far as the oil companies. I read that they make $.07/gallon today. To me that is not the big factor in our now $3.75/gallon selling price.
Hey anybody know the profit per gallon 8 years ago vs. today? That would be an interesting number. Or another way what percentage of the retail price went into the oil companies bottom line?
Got a link because that's impossible !!!! I know the profit margin per gallon for the independent gas station is not very much like $0.07 per gallon if they are lucky. My source is my brother who runs one. Are you sure that isn't what your information said ???? :surprise:
The highest quarterly profits in history all on a $0.07 profit margin ??? I would even agree with the oil man, and say that's some fuzzy math !!!!
-Rocky
I googled around on the web, and found a statistic from 2005 that said the US uses about 320,500,000 gallons of gasoline per day. At 7 cents per gallon, that comes out to about $22M per DAY. Or about $8.2 BILLION per year. And that's just from gasoline in the United States. Let's not forget about jet fuel, oil, plastics, kerosene, and other petroleum products, plus the consumption of the rest of the world.
7 cents per gallon might not sound like much, but this is one of those cases where they really do make it up in volume.
Bigger is never better anymore. Stay tuned!
Regards,
OW
I recall articles about the clothing imports being circumvented by running the merchandise through a Central American county, maybe Mexico (surprise?) and then brought into the US. Whoops. There went the clothing manufacturer jobs. Hello Walmart.
It's sad to watch the obvious pandering to the vulnerable, poorly headed unions in the speech last night. A quick mention of certain unions by the candidate makes them all giddy that he's going to "fix" everything if only they can spend enough of their members' money to get him elected. The local union leader who is always on the news picketing republican events was probably trying to figure out how to get more money and register more ineligible, duplicate, or dead voters to up the vote for Ohio. The local mayor was quoted as saying "...America can change from the way it has been was demandingly given." She meant "commandingly" given. The same mayor tries to make any lack of enthusiasm about the candidate due to racism, rather than lack of experience or just being about words.
The local union leader (AFSCME) who's always in the news says "I'm more excited about change than any other time." Odd this came on the day that GM rejected the Ohio offer of $50 million in direct subsidy to do something with the Moraine plant due to be closed in or about 2010. He doesn't see the handwriting on the wall; he just sees the dues money to continue the operation of his union leadership job.
I see huge talk about saving and making good jobs with no real ability to effect that outcome. I see lots of tax and spend under the guise of development, and not much outcome. I see the media and labor unions loving this candidate if he were to win, but the reality will continue to be Dayton again: lose 200 good jobs reported in the newspaper followed by the local mayor gleefully announcing gaining 50 -200 minimum wage jobs as if she had just accomplished siting a new Honda plant at the Moraine location (which is actually outside her city, but the point is the same).
The unions are going to lose. This is not JFK or MLK who gave the speech last night. Labor should be asking more about history of the candidate's backing:
radio station page
Who is Dr. Kalid A'Mansour?
Lotsa links.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think another thing that might be confusing people is stock prices and earnings per share. For instance, Exxon/Mobil (XOM) closed at about $81.18 per share. It has a reported earnings per share of $8.09 per share. So that's about 10%! But that doesn't mean they're making a 10% profit, necessarily, on their products. It just means they're making enough profit that it comes out to about $8.09 per share. Of that, they pay $1.60 per share back to the stockholders.
Interestingly, if gas it $3.75/gal and they make 7 cents, that comes out to about 1.9%. Which is about the same percent as the dividend. ($1.60/$81.19)
We agree on this one. Sad thing is that we can greatly increase our supply by drilling in known huge reserves. But the democrats are fighting furiously to keep that from happening. WHY? Right now, Gas at local stations is ranging from $3.46 to $3.59. A month ago it was in the $4.25 range. What is the difference? Could it be simply because there is a possibility that we might start drilling again. What would it drop to if we actually started drilling again? How many Americans would that put to work Rockee. What would that $700 Billion, we send out of the country every year to purchase oil from those who hate us, do for the economy?
>" I read that they make $.07/gallon today. To me that is not the big factor in our now $3.75/gallon selling price. "
Seems I read somewhere that the oil companies make 7% profit, and The feds make 18% (taxes) on gasoline. Anybody else know about this?
FWIW a hardware store marks up 33%. Ever wonder how a clothing store can mark a $80 jacket down to $20? Or a shoe store mark down Nike shoes to half price and they still make a profit? Furniture is marked up about 400 %. So when they feature a $500 item for $250 they are still making 100%. Their cost was $125.
How can a car company mark down a $30K car to $21K ?
I don't begrudge the oil companies their 7 or 8%. I do begrudge Nancy Palosi and company for not raising the ban on drilling.
Recently a documentary revealed that Russia has gone from a state of bankruptcy during the Reagan years to one of the wealthiest nation on earth now. How? They are drilling and exporting their oil. Believe it or not!
Why can't we do the same, and use that money to pay off our tremendous debt?
Real simple! The dems want us to rely on the government and eventually become a socialist country. Even more than we already are.
Kip
Your cheap gas in 1997 was the reason most of the Union guys in Alaska were laid off. The oil companies were not doing any exploration or additional production with oil at $10 barrel. So sure the UAW was flying high selling Suburbans and Tahoes, sucking down cheap gas. What kind of profit was GM making during those years? Did I hear Bill Clinton or anyone in Congress calling for windfall profit tax on GM? No all that happened was the greedy UAW went on strike when GM was trying to roll out their new models. Must have been tough in 1998 if the UAW workers had to go on strike against GM. You totally ignore that whenever it is mentioned.
If Bill Clinton did have a surplus why did WE add to the National Debt Every year of his Presidency? His gutting of the military was a false sense of security. Every base he closed represented people losing GOOD paying jobs. You only like to look at what is beneficial to you and Michigan. There are 49 other states that are just as important to the survival of the the United States. You should look beyond Grand Rapids.
Is this the future you want?
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f185b68/1343
National debt reminder. National debt went up $1.53 Trillion during the Clinton Presidency. Last President to pay down the debt was Ike, in 1957
JAN 19 2001 $5,727,776,738,304.64
JAN 21,1997 $5,310,267,076,516.85
Jan 20 1993 $4,188,092,107,183.60
SOURCE: OFFICIAL STATS FROM US DEPT OF TREAS
PS
Pepsi & Coca Cola make a better return on investment than Exxon. Better slap a windfall profit tax on them also.
That doesn't necessarily mean that they're still making a huge profit. With clothing stores, the new styles come out every three months, and if they still have a bunch of old merchandise lying around taking up space, then they don't have the space to sell the new stuff. So in many cases, they could very well be selling that old stuff at a loss, simply to clear way for the new merchandise which will be more profitable.
I used to work for a department store, and I remember that when clothes got too far out out season and didn't sell in the clearance racks, they'd actually throw them in the big trash compactors and write it off! I always thought they should just donate the stuff to charity, but evidently it was more profitable (or perhaps less UNprofitable) to simply crush it. I think they got a bigger writeoff doing it that way.
Now some big ticket items, like furniture, actually DO have a big profit margin. But the merchandise also takes up a lot of floor and warehouse space in a store, which has to be taken into account.
Rock, I'm not denying the overall economy did well under Clinton, I'm just presenting a different point of view that isn't as rosy as yours. To say Bush inherited a sound economy when he took office is pure BS. But that's not to blame Clinton. It's the natural progression of the economic cycle. Recessions have and will always happen.
I'm just trying to bring you back to earth a bit to dispute that everyone was doing great during the '90s. Just like today, many are doing well, and many aren't.
In 1993, I was in my 3rd year of college. My dad's employer (he was in middle management at the time) was bought out. Fortunately, he was able to keep his job, but he did loose $20k/hr salary and his company car. I borrowed money and worked as much as I could to fund the remainder of my education. I (neither did my dad) didn't sit around and bit#$ and moan, or blame Clinton when my dad took a 30% pay cut. It motivated even harder to finish my education and be successful.
I have a different perspective than you, I grew up around the steel mills and they were severely hurting during that time, in the late 90's my FIL was just hoping the mill (LTV) would last long enough so he'd get his 30 year pension. It barely did filing bankruptcy in late 2000. The steel mills have done better under Bush than clinton, but they have all been reorganized and under new ownership, among many other things going on in the marketplace that has allowed them to make money.
It seems to me you gauge the entire US economy based on how UAW employers do. The US is way more diverse than that. Not to mention GM shaved many jobs during the '90's. Didn't the UAW strike over 1998 layoffs. Sounds like good times.
And yes, I am much better off now than in the 90's. In 1999, I had been 4 years removed from college and my wife only 2. So yeah, almost 10 years later, we're in a much better position. I don't credit bush for it, but our own personal effort and decisions. If you need a president to provide hope/opportunity for your future, you've already failed.
I could not have said it better.
Believing the promises of a politician, is about the same as believing the moon is made of green cheese. If the B3 and the UAW survive it will require hard work and much sacrifice on all the lower level management and Union members. The likelihood of people buying big SUVs in the numbers they did in the 1990s is highly improbable. There is not the same margin of profit in a Cobalt or Cruze as a Denali. Most of the smaller cars will be built off shore. If the UAW can control their urge to strike, maybe the Enclave and Malibu will give GM a chance to survive.
You gripe because GM, ruled the world with UAW made TRUCKS and SUV's under William Jefferson Clinton, and I took trips to a lot of different places in the 1990's with my grandmother. Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, were a few of the states I visited with my IUE grandmother !!! Remember, I wasn't just playing video games and sports, but was lucky to do a lot of traveling because again of my grandma. I also visted my family in Utah, Idaho, Oregon, Florida, during these times. I stayed the summer in Salt Lake City, with my great aunt and got a good eye opener at the ultra religious mormons and their republican, non-union way of thinking. Most of them drove imports, and thought they were a little better than everyone else :confuse:
As far as you imidazol97, go buddy ol' pal :P I will tell you first hand that don't blame Slick Willy, for China's missle technology advancements. If you turn back a page or two in time you will see that Raytheon, was building parts to the Patriot Missle over-sea's during the Reagan administration. The Chinese have 6,000 known front companies here in the U.S. and if Clinton, was giving them secrets like you and Rush Limbaugh, claim well why hasn't your favorite president Dubya Bush, cracked the whip ??? I know this to be factual lets just say from prior employment !!!!
I'd will admit it would be very hard for me to say in the general election that I wouldn't vote for Paul or Hunter. I disagree with them both on a lot of issues but some of the core issues that are important to me they have my support. Getting rid of the 30-40 million illegal aliens in this country and us citizens taking back our once high-paying union jobs like in the beef plants would be a blessing. I know Obama or McCain, will not address that issue as it would cost them the election. Maybe I will just have to run to fix all of it !!!! :P :P :P :P :P :P I know I can count on Marsha7's vote !!!! :P :P :P :P :P
"The Rock"
So times were not so good for the UAW in 1998? It seems no matter who is President the UAW is not happy. Or maybe they just like to strike. I cannot imagine a security guard going on strike making $60k per year. Unless he was over weight from too many Hostess Twinkies. I like to think as a Union shop steward, we were smarter than the company management we went up against. The last 26 years I worked for a small independent phone company with a Teamster contract. I could have made more if I wanted a job with one of the Oil Companies. I stayed with our company to build up my retirement. I'm happy I did.
Alaska depends on oil just as Michigan depends on the auto makers. What makes the auto industry any more important than the oil industry? They both provide jobs with good wages.
I really do not know how to address your travel ramblings. I don't think I would be proud to run around the country on the Union workers dues as it seems your grandmother did. That is much of what gives Unions a bad name.
Go Palin, Union Member for VP.....
They were but if you remember GM, still wanted to close plants and move them south of the border and the Delphi, spin-off wasn't complete. GM, made billions and the UAW, wanted a slice of the pie like the executives. If you also remember (which I'm sure you don't) GM, was billions behind on its pension contributions while fattening the wallets of the board of executives.
It seems no matter who is President the UAW is not happy.
There is a huge difference between pumping a black substance out of the ground and raping americans on profit margins and making a automobile thus I wouldn't expect you to understand. The automobile industry doesn't have the luxury of dividing up $40 billion profits each quarter and have the president right behind them :mad:
I cannot imagine a security guard going on strike making $60k per year.
You have nary a clue as to what I did and what I was exposed too protecting everyone's butt on this forum.
Unless he was over weight from too many Hostess Twinkies.
If that was directed at me well that is pretty low, gagrice. D.O.E. physical/mental health standards for Dept. Of Energy, Security Police Officer's is public knowledge.
I like to think as a Union shop steward, we were smarter than the company management we went up against. The last 26 years I worked for a small independent phone company with a Teamster contract. I could have made more if I wanted a job with one of the Oil Companies. I stayed with our company to build up my retirement. I'm happy I did.
Well does it really require a lot of intellegence to pump oil out of the ground ??? It's not like you have a lot of competition as their is more demand than supply. I personally believe you made the right choices staying with the phone company and I'm sure their isn't a lot of competition or phone company's in Alaska.
Alaska depends on oil just as Michigan depends on the auto makers. What makes the auto industry any more important than the oil industry? They both provide jobs with good wages.
The greed of the oil cartel, has cost this country millions of jobs. Oil, is energy and I know a lot of truck drivers that have gone belly up !!! Tourism, has taken a hit as well. It cost's people more money to heat, drive, turn on the lights, which means less disposable income for other things. I agree the oil industry in general pays their workers quite well. I'm not totally anti-oil as long as it's U.S. oil. I however believe Oil, is a out-dated energy source and while it should have it's importance as a viable energy source it shouldn't be the main source !!! Obama, will create 5 million green jobs many I'm sure will be union.
I really do not know how to address your travel ramblings. I don't think I would be proud to run around the country on the Union workers dues as it seems your grandmother did. That is much of what gives Unions a bad name.
My grandmother, was the educational director for four states and Ontario, Canada. She had to travel a lot for her job gagrice. i.e. contract negotiations, meetings in D.C. and well I got to go a long on some of her travels. The Teamster's international has the same set-up. My uncle is a Teamster.
Go Palin, Union Member for VP.....
What the most inexperienced person to sit a heart beat away from the highest position in our country ???? :surprise: I love McCain's choice. He is sure playing his cards right because Obama, didn't pick Hillary. the only reason why Palin, is on the card is #1 She's a female and pretty face. #2 Uhhhhhhhh.... Uhhhhhhh....help me out gagrice, ha, ha, ha, ha !!!!
I know deep down gagrice, you are really thinking you got to be kidding ????
You are just toeing the party line !!!
"The Rock"
So you admit that it was greed by the UAW workers that caused all those problems at GM. It seems that after they did go back to work it was months before a decent vehicle came off the assembly line. It cost GM $billions in losses because of that strike. More than many oil companies make most years.
The automobile industry doesn't have the luxury of dividing up $40 billion profits
If memory serves me Toyota had $13 billion net profit in 2006. I would bet that is a higher percentage than the Oil companies made on their investment.
If that was directed at me well that is pretty low, gagrice.
It was directed at the Union members working for Pantex. Going on strike because some of the donut munching rent-a cops are over weight, does not make any sense to me. I say they should shape up or ship out. I don't want any over weight cop protecting our nukes from the likes of Osama bin Laden. For that kind of money the company should get a mean lean fighting machine. Its not like they are protecting a Walmart store.
I love McCain's choice.
Me too, even though the AP reporter said " she is no more qualified than Obama". I think she is better qualified. As Obama has done NOTHING.
-Rocky
I guess so if Rick Wagoner's and Jack Smith's knocking down $22 million between their salary's and stock options. If the company is telling you we aren't going to fund your pension plan, and by the way we are moving your plant south well they had mine and millions others support.
It seems that after they did go back to work it was months before a decent vehicle came off the assembly line.
HUH ??? Was their something wrong with the tens of thousands that they made I or anyone else doesn't know about ????
It cost GM $billions in losses because of that strike. More than many oil companies make most years.
Well actual put some people at the top with a brain, that kind of stuff won't happen.
GM, blew billions of dollars on acquiring and selling companies but those executives got their pay and thus why shouldn't the UAW, workers. I don't want to hear you cry about what the oil companies didn't make most years. Your not going to get a crying violin, from me !!!
If memory serves me Toyota had $13 billion net profit in 2006. I would bet that is a higher percentage than the Oil companies made on their investment.
As far as the $13 Billion goes your oil cartel are making more than double that in 3 months. Also that $13 billion is the profit margin for one year for toyota, not 3 months. As much as that is it's really a apples to oranges arguement !!!
They (Toyota) got away with hiding their recalls for a decade, get billons in tax dollars to throw togeather plants in the south, have a government (Japan) that subsidizes it's automobile sector like we do our oil industry. Japan, also manipulates it's currency, and currently has/had in place trade barriers which all contributes/adds to GM's troubles.
It was directed at the Union members working for Pantex. Going on strike because some of the donut munching rent-a cops are over weight, does not make any sense to me.
Well lemme tell you Mr. Gagrice, we were and they are still the best armed security force in the world, pal !!! I was in pretty damn good shape, just like everyone else there. We had a 401K retirement plan which you damn well know is like playing craps in Vegas, and we went on strike #1 because they were trying to raise our health insurance from $140 a month to $800.00 a month. Remember that $60K salary was 13 hour swing shifts or $21.36 an hour. You kill me for having the gull to criticize other people about job qualifications when I guarantee my armed security police officer job at Pantex, was a lot tougher mentally, physically, took way more qualifications to land than some over paid $40 an/hr. phone job in Alaska, probably which the average teamster ate himself to death just to keep warm !!! What did ya'll do in the winter time besides drink pots of coffee and inhale down a couple dozen dognuts ???? I really can't believe the comments from you, OMG !!! :surprise: WOW !!! :surprise:
I say they should shape up or ship out. I don't want any over weight cop protecting our nukes from the likes of Osama bin Laden.
Well you tell that to the thousands of people that had, currently, or will have, beryllium disease !!! Not to mention you tell that to all the people that have came down with cancer. As I said before you have nary a clue !!! Also Osama, doesn't need Pantex, for nukes. I'm sure the Bush, family sent him some for christmas if you know what I really mean because it's funny how this one super tall arab guy with a crowd around him that stands and has his picture plastered all around the world can some how keep escaping all this advanced surveilliance equipment and never get caught, yet we can read the words on a golf ball from outer space.... Hmmmmmmmm !!!!
For that kind of money the company should get a mean lean fighting machine. Its not like they are protecting a Walmart store.
That's pretty much what you had for the most part !!! You couldn't work there without having prior experience in the military or law enforcement. The elderly SPO's migrate to a job with in the plant, once their body's are finished. Most folks can't run and gun forever. We tried to get a federal 20 year retirement and if we would of went federal it would of saved the Dept. Of Energy and it's tax payers $1 Billion dollars D.O.E. wide but people like your good buddy Bush, have friends that donatedlarge sums of money to keep the contract private.
I love McCain's choice.
Me too, even though the AP reporter said " she is no more qualified than Obama". I think she is better qualified. As Obama has done NOTHING.
Well at least when Obama, does do something he's right. It's either just luck or he is a man of real intellectual thinking.
"The Rock"
Not unlike Clinton who was in Stealth Mode because of his excellent charisma and speaking skills. No Lies at all in the 2 terms. Give us all a break.
Think how Clinton would have handled 9/11...Slick talk but no action would have led to even more attacks! Like Jimmy Carter in the hostage crisis...one more helicopter would have done it! PLEASE!
Regards,
OW
There are openings right now. Just get on the books at the Teamsters Local 959. They would love to dispatch a couple qualified technicians. It only pays $38 per hour with full medical and $7 per hour in the retirement. Plus 3% matching in a 401K. You work 21 days straight 10 hours per day and then 3 weeks off. Great job if you are qualified. And can stand working outside at 50 below zero without whining. Unlike the UAW we get our contracts RIGHT before we sign on for another 3 years. So no strikes needed.
Strikes never pay. My last one was 1968 with the CWA. Out for 2 weeks and got a nickle raise. Exactly what Pacific Telephone offered before the strike. Now you can tell us how much you got by going on strike.
I stand corrected, as the theory of "Creative Destruction" will also eliminate the bad companies that cannot evolve and survive...
But, in the short run, the company will shed unnecessary or worthless workers in an attempt to survive, then the compnay goes down if survival is not possible...
It comes down to this...the individual worker depends on the company more than the company depends on the individual worker...employees need the employer more than the emploer needs the specific employee...that is why the employees line up on Friday for their paychecks, and the company must issue them, whether it has been a good collection week or not...
That is why most employees never have a clue as to what it takes to make a company run...and should not have any rights in running the company...
rocky: You live in a unionized bubble, and that is all you will ever see...Bill Clinton's economy was based on fraudulent dot coms that crashed in March 2000 once revealed that they had no sales, no assets, no NOTHING...Clinton's economy was a mirage, as it lost 5 (or was it 8?) TRILLION dollars of welth when the Nasdaq crashed from 5000 down to 1200 (???)...Pets.com was symbolic of the mirage, when all they had for their billion dollar market cap was a puppet of a dog and some slick ads...
BTW, don't forget that ALL, not some, of the fraud happened under Clinton...it was the Bush administration that brought all those guys like Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers and others to justice, tried them and sent them all to prison...
FWIW...if Clinton did balance the budget, it was because he had the Republicans who had control as of 1995... back when Republicans acted like Republicans...they also gave us welfare reform, which Clinton vetoed 3-4 times...
rocky: it is simple...your youth and the diaper brigade are coming back to bite you in the XXXXX...
Well, if that's so, how do you explain the arrival of the Kia Borrego at a time when nobody's selling those behemoths??
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Clinton get countries like Japan to pay billions in payments for our role in liberating Kiwait prior to the repubs taking over Congress?
You mean................it's not?????????
Politicians...............lie?????? :sick: :sick:
I agree strikes are never fun but getting skated on contracts and taking the back seat while the CEO's of these huge multi-national companies are helping themselves to huge pay raises well isn't fair. I guess since you've never had to face that situation it might be hard for you to comprehend.
-Rocky
Those slaps on the wrist for a couple executives ???? Why isn't Alan Dawes and J.T. Battenburg III not in a cell ??? It's all one giant Facade !!!
rocky: it is simple...your youth and the diaper brigade are coming back to bite you in the XXXXX...
Marsha7, I think you're referring to yourself only with your age. I think it's the depends factor as your memory has gone bad from too much Rush !!!!
-Rocky
You spend entirely too much of your mental energy worrying about what the CEO makes. You know if you divided his salary amongst the workers it would be NOTHING. And yes we faced strikes several times over my 37 years in the Teamsters. We went as long as a year and a half without a contract while still negotiating. We had work slowdowns. NEVER went on strike and never lost a penny in wages. We always got retro active pay. The UAW needs to learn how to negotiate without striking. It only hurts the workers. Does Fiddlefinger do without a paycheck while his UAW workers are out on strike? I bet not.
As far as security for military weapon sites. I just don't know. The real problem with Civil Service is they just keep hiring more people to do the same job. I watched it next door at the FAA site in Prudhoe Bay. They had 6 people on shift to handle less work than should have been done by one or two people. If the average guy knew how screwed up the VOR & flight radar system into that site was most of the time. They would not fly in there. And that costs you and I tax dollars. With a contractor you can limit that much easier. Our government is so over bloated with people doing nothing it is sickening. Most government agencies will have a couple people busting their butts and a dozen sitting on their hands. All jobs protected by a Union.
You and I just have about a 180 degree out view of what should be expected of a working man or woman. I look around where I am working and say how much can I make doing what I am doing. Then go into negotiations with the facts and figures of what that job pays in our location. You seem to think the worker should make a percentage of what the CEO makes regardless of the going wage. That kind of thinking by the UAW has cost them over a million jobs in the last 30 years. The UAW peaked in 1979 with 1.5 million workers and headed down hill. The Democrats including Teddy controlled the Congress during all that period up to 1995. That is when the American people said enough is enough. You like to blame everything on the government. When will the UAW accept they have played a part in the demise of the Big 3 and the American loss of manufacturing? Just because the UAW worker was the highest paid industry in the 1960s does not mean they can maintain that standard forever. When you are high paid people want your job. That makes for competition. Why do you think there are millions of people swarming across our borders looking for work? Why do you suppose Obama and Hillary refuse to denounce those workers, and refuse them any rights? Why do they pander to people that will do the job cheaper than your or I?
VOTES MY FRIEND,VOTES.....
Frankly, IMHO, McCain should yield the presidential candidacy to Palin, and ask nicely to be her VP. LOL!