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Comments
Are the slaves in China, India and Mexico driving the biggest boom in car sales in those countries. There were no personal automobiles in China in 1985. They are selling so many cars now that they will pass US in about 6 years. That does not sound like slave wages to me.
Environmental issues I find a laughable idea. Do you have any idea what can block a factory being built in the USA? Let me tell you what happened to a friend here in San Diego. He owns 4 acres of commercial property on the main street of his town. An aggressive environmental type made a rare discovery on his 4 acres while illegally trespassing. It was home to the Fairy Shrimp. Look them up. His property can not be built on, PERIOD. It sits with a for sale sign on it the last 5 years. No one wants a piece of land you cannot build on. And he is stuck with the big taxes and the state does not want it as it is in the middle of town. He cannot even plant grass and make it into a park. No wonder so many businesses have moved out of this whacked out country.
I do agree that tariffs should be equalized. No one including Obama will do away with NAFTA. It is not neighborly... You just better hope that GM comes up with some decent cars for the UAW to build.
The UAW doesn't find environmental issues laughable. They want more alternative energy sources for cars to create jobs. "UAW members want to save fuel and protect the environment." (UAW Local 2416). They probably like clean air and clean water like the rest of us too.
I am not aware that the US operations of MB and BMW (which have not produced the most highly thought of vehicles of those companies, btw) were actually the relocation of jobs, rather than a new facility built for a new product line where North Americans were to be the primary consumers.
I have always wondered why it is a crime for employers to reward loyal workers with a little loyalty in return. What is wrong with that? Other than that it works against longterm thought, and longterm thought is a crime in the American corporate model.
People can be "satisfied" when they are allowed to buy a cheap big TV made under $1/day living conditions, and are allowed to drive a bloated SUV that makes them feel safe and cool. Credit has been easy for a reason. Those surveys are pretty irrelevant.
How much freedom of speech do you really have? And for how long? You are free so long as you conform to what is expected.
How about an E Class? I think you know the point I was trying to make. The UAW worker of old had a much higher standard of living than most factory workers in the USA. Company A cannot continue to pay more than company B for the same product and stay in business. There are a lot of people in this country that are happy to work for Honda or Nissan or BMW at a lower wage than the UAW worker. There are lot of people in this country besides the UAW workers that are finding out that living to the ragged edge of your income is foolish. The government has encouraged it with ridiculously low interest rates. It is still on the individual to make smart choices. I don't see that happening. That is not my fault and I don't feel I should bail any of them out. Including the banks and brokerage houses.
No, I have thought of going to Europe. Too many other places I would like to go first. You've seen one castle you've seen em all. Maybe Greece, we have friends begging us to come visit. My wife has been everywhere and is not as motivated to travel outside the USA.
The standard of living in western Europe as a whole is not any worse than in NA - some areas have problems, some areas are amazingly nice, just like on this continent. There's more in common than different, even with the high European taxes.
The government will defend the financial sector a million times more than it will defend anything connected to manufacturing or living wage jobs - as the financial sector controls the US government (since the Warburg Fed, at least) no matter if neocon or pseudo-commie, and living wage jobs are the enemy of many who seek control.
Whereas here, one has to wonde rjust how many UAW workers go out of their way to sabotahe the product because, in their infantile mindset, that's how they get back at "the man", being too stupid to realize that they are getting back at ME, and pushing me toward import products...
Many people WANT the BMW or MB, but simply cannot afford it...very few, I would bet, lie awake at night just praying they can someday own a Saturn...
When you see the dufference in the quality, you have a chance to understand what I would assume to be the difference in the union...
Plus, I would also bet that if a BMW worker saw a fellow worker doing something to sabotage the product, that bad worker would not be on the line for long...here, the UAW will fight to the death to keep the lousy worker on the line, with appeals taking 2 years before he is finaly removed from the line...how many rotten products has that worker made while the appeals go on???...thousands???hundreds of thousands???
I would further bet that the skills of the German worker will put ours to shame...remember, Lee Iaccoca lamented on how many UAW people cannot read simply warning signs...
We can still take your app for the Kia plant...:):):):):)
Didn't Forbes just do an article on "Dying Cities in America"???...I think Detroit and Cleveland were in the top (bottom) 3...add to that your Mayor, who can actually make the crooked Coleman Young look like a saint...
I can appreciate anyone hoping for a resurrection, but Detroit and Michigan will never be it...
Or maybe since most of BMW (46%) is controlled by the Quant family, they can afford to plan longer term, and can move faster to dump a line (Land Rover) when circumstances dictate.
Or maybe they just know how to control their workers from their "shameful history of [non-permissible content removed] profiteering and use of slave labor"? BMW's Quandt Family Faces Its [non-permissible content removed] Past
There's plenty of news articles about IG Metall, which is the engineering union at BMW and lots of other EU factories. Many of them sound similar notes to UAW and CAW stories on this continent.
IMO the old [non-permissible content removed] crap brought up against German firms now and then is a pretty rank distraction...I don't see those involved with all the murder undertaken in the names of the British or Soviet empires being brought to any kind of accountability or even mere attention. When others ever give reparations for their crimes, perhaps then they will have a right to complain. Until then it's just a ruse that in the end gives more support to the flow of western money to Israel, which creates nothing but trouble. If any nation in history has paid for crimes, it is Germany.
Its just silly that you would compare the employee owners of BMW to those of Cadillac. Do you suppose that any of the folks who build Lear Jets own one? If you were to go to Europe you would see MB as taxis. The cost there isn't the same as here. It has to do with the exchange rates. Then too you have to look at the public transportation, The fact that America is the number one consumer nation, and most Europeans keep their material good for longer than say an American. the point is that there are cultural differences. Few if any Toyota workers in Japan own a Toyota. Their culture spends most of its disposable income on travel and clothes. Germans too go more on holiday (their version of vacation) than we do as a nation. So what is your point?
Yes that is a quote for the big dog at BMW as to the motives for moving. At 12.50 an hour many may wonder if thats the only reason. And yes the employees at Circuit City were well rewarded, as that company decided that newer employees don't cost as much. The older employee has earned merit increases, is more likely to get sick, and more than likely has a family with kids who need a college education. This is the type of reward system the future has for American worker, unless we stand-up and say enough is enough. Boycott all those who disrespect labor.
They are experiencing a similar invasion of cheap goods made with glorified slave labor, just as we are. Their shops have much of the same junk. They do often have many superior home-grown choices, especially when it comes to household goods, but the effort for cheap at all costs is there too.
Those MB taxis are spec'd to a level not seen in NA in 30 years - they are strippers. That's why they are cheap. Cars sent to NA are considered loaded by Euro standards, even in base trim for this market. The low spec Euro version of a highline car sold in NA would not appeal to the average buyer of the given make here. That 4cyl E-class with a cloth interior, manual climate control, and a base stereo would not win the buyer of those cars as they sit today.
My "point" is that it is silly to say UAW workers are able to buy Caddys and Euro workers are not able to buy their products, as the products are not directly comparable. You don't need to pick me apart, in general I agree with your mindset about labor and the rewarding of workers.
I was a son of a UAW-GM/Delphi, employee and my parents did not own the kind of items so many of you talk about. sure their are UAW family's where both parents were fortunate enough to work for GM, but the norm was not what you describe. When I was very young my mother did not work and took care of us kids. We didn't have the 2nd home and all the toys you talk about until the mid-late 80's when mom, landed a job at GE, making decent money. She lost her job at GE, because Neutron Jack, shut the doors even though they were making millions a year in profit at the plant. Yeah, their are UAW employees who work butt loads of overtime and can achieve material things, extra property, over the course of time. Yeah, some live beyond their means like gagrice, talked about in a earlier post. The UAW-GM, employee new hire will never achieve or acquire the standard of living of my father, grandfather, had thus all the hyperbole of UAW, workers owning Cadillac's on $18-19 bucks an hour well is fantasy land. I made $60K a year when I lived in Texas, didn't have a mortgage payment for 3 years but as you know my ex wife to be cleaned me out. When I thought I had money, I still didn't consider myself rich enough to go buy a new STS, and at that time I was mad at GM, for the way I was treated by one of their dealerships and went bought the Acura TL. Speaking of the Acura TL, that 2009 has received a worse nose job than Michael Jackson !!! :surprise:
-Rocky
-Rocky
I would think for someone that believes that Made in America is the best would be in favor of a US built anything over a German or Japanese built vehicle. Personally the only BMW that ever turned me on was the 850. I think I like the X5. I am waiting for the diesel version to make its debut.
Let me ask a question. Do you think a car built in the USA whether Union or Non-Union is better for America than one built in any foreign country? I was always proud as a Union member that our contribution to our craft kept the wages at a decent level. I never believed that I could not be replaced by a non union tech that could do as well. I was determined throughout my 46 years to be the best and make money for my employer.
I don't get the feeling that the rank and file UAW member feels that way. If they did there would not have been those strikes against the two factories this Spring that were making the only GM vehicles that were selling. I had a bit of sympathy for their situation until they pulled that stunt.
I think you have a very distorted picture of many of the EU countries you believe to be utopia. In the late 1980s I had a German girlfriend in Hawaii. She was a tour guide for Germans and traveled the World. She wanted to get married and become a US citizen. She was fed up with giving over half of her pay to the German government. I was tempted as she was a lovely girl. I have several friends that have lived & live in Costa Rica, another utopia until you dig deep.
I have no idea what the future holds for the US and the rest of the World. I know we are so much a part of the World community that there is no going back to being isolated. You need to come to grips with competing against the World labor market. That is your future, my kids future and your kids future.
I also believe in the 2nd amendement but believe stronger background checks are needed. If the people had a equal voice at the table our government would be a lot better. Right now we are selling our souls to China, and Corporate America, is the only one whom will stand to benefit. We might be able to buy some non-union made shoddy Chinese, made product at Walley World, now but the question is at what expense ??? Unions like the UAW, Teamsters, IUE-CWA, IBEW, etc, have contributed to the standard of living some of ya'll have enjoyed. My generation will be the 1st generation that didn't have it better than its parents overall because of many contributing factors that can be blamed on both political party's.
-Rocky
Ummmm gagrice, 20% of their population has some money pal, how bout the 80% living in a grass hut with extended family, eating snakes and rice if they are lucky enough to receive rain ???? :surprise:
Do a little research on the way the majority of people who live in China, REALLY LIVE and get back to me !!!!
Environmental issues I find a laughable idea. Do you have any idea what can block a factory being built in the USA? Let me tell you what happened to a friend here in San Diego. He owns 4 acres of commercial property on the main street of his town. An aggressive environmental type made a rare discovery on his 4 acres while illegally trespassing. It was home to the Fairy Shrimp. Look them up. His property can not be built on, PERIOD. It sits with a for sale sign on it the last 5 years. No one wants a piece of land you cannot build on. And he is stuck with the big taxes and the state does not want it as it is in the middle of town. He cannot even plant grass and make it into a park. No wonder so many businesses have moved out of this whacked out country.
One would think the state of california, would just buy the land and make it into a park. If I was he I'd say either buy it or I'm going to bull-doze the fairy shrimp under.
There has to be something the guy can do. Has he hired a lawyer ??? I agree that is whacked out and will agree California, has some screwed up laws despite I being a native son of the state !!!
I do agree that tariffs should be equalized. No one including Obama will do away with NAFTA. It is not neighborly... You just better hope that GM comes up with some decent cars for the UAW to build.
I think Obama, has no choice but to fix NAFTA, his promise to the unions. Obama, otherwise will look like a liar !!! That is one of the main reasons why Hillary, didn't run away with this election because of her husbands passage of NAFTA, the biggest blunder in democrat politics !!! :sick:
The UAW, will build the Volt, but will it be enough ??? I'm not sure if Ihave confidence in GM, management anymore !!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
Another aspect in this area of Ohio where Rocky mentions some households having a stay-at-home mom (or dad in the case of a person in our elementary school when our kid was there) is that this area also has the WPAFB with lots of jobs for non college grads and Lexus-Nexus along with Reynolds Reynolds and NCR. But some of those have gone recently to lower employment or left the area. The many Delphi (nee Delco) plants making shocks, struts, brakes, seats, dashboards, employed a lot of people along with Harrison Radiator (AC compressors for your Jags and Volvos and Rolls? along with GM vehicles and maybe some Fords IIRC from when I last toured that plant before it closed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
rocky: if you aren't afraid of socialism, I am absolutely afraid of you and your thinking and voting pattern...and the fact that there may be others out there like you who would turn this country communist, especially while the rest of the world has finally woken up to the fact that socialism does not work...for anybody...
-Rocky
I assume gagrice, is very well off financially but is he "rich enough" to have his voice heard ???? Joe Six-Pack, has no voice in this government and you have to be wealthy to be heard or have credibility. That is why it's so damn important IMHO to have unions where each person throws money into a pot to have their collective voice heard in Washington.
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Something else I will say and that is we would not be remotely close militarily if it weren't for the [non-permissible content removed]'s. The [non-permissible content removed]'s helped us technologically win the Cold War, and their genious engineers came to the U.S. after WWII and worked on Top Secret projects. There is lots of documentation out their to back my claims.
I want to share with you all a little video I found on youtube where BMW, well made some other "suspension" advancements in technology !!! -GRIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by3Q2jzeJKY
Grab some popcorn and enjoy !!!! :shades:
"The Rock"
There's a lot of crazy stuff like that on youtube, it's fun but a bit out there. However I have read about magnetic technology that was pretty wild...maybe GM stole some of it for magnaride
I believe support for unions will continue to wane, but as globalization continues to create negative effects for the masses in the western world, the pendulum will come back.
I do not believe it could happen again - people learned a lesson - but Europe is setting itself up as a participant in some kind of massive forced resettlement if their immigration trends keep up. People I know there are becoming very disenchanted, I would say it is some degrees higher than what exists here regarding illegals.
What is the Difference Between Socialism and Communism?
Answer: Socialism and communism are ideological doctrines that have many similarities as well as many differences. It is difficult to discern the true differences between socialism and communism, as various societies have tried different types of both systems in myriad forms, and many ideologues with different agendas have defined both systems in biased terms. Some main differences, however, can still be identified.
One difference between socialism and communism is that socialism is mainly an economic system, while communism is both an economic and a political system. As an economic system, socialism seeks to manage the economy through deliberate and collective social control. Communism, however, seeks to manage both the economy and the society by ensuring that property is owned collectively and that control over the distribution of property is centralized in order to achieve both classlessness and statelessness. Both socialism and communism are similar in that they seek to prevent the ill effects that are sometimes produced by capitalism.
Both socialism and communism are based on the principle that the goods and services produced in an economy should be owned publicly and controlled and planned by a centralized organization. However, socialism asserts that the distribution should take place according to the amount of individuals' production efforts, while communism asserts that that goods and services should be distributed among the populace according to individuals' needs.
Another difference between socialism and communism is that communists assert that both capitalism and private ownership of means of production must be done away with as soon as possible in order to make sure a classless society, the communist ideal, is formed. Socialists, however, see capitalism as a possible part of the ideal state and believe that socialism can exist in a capitalist society. In fact, one of the ideas of socialism is that everyone within the society will benefit from capitalism as much as possible as long as the capitalism is controlled somehow by a centralized planning system.
Finally, another difference between socialism and communism is centered on who controls the structure of economy. Where socialism generally aims to have as many people as possible influence how the economy works, communism seeks to concentrate that number into a smaller amount.
Perhaps this brief explanation will finally sink in ??? :confuse:
-Rocky
Actually The Big 3, did benefit from WWII. Don't you remember Ford, supplied the [non-permissible content removed]'s. There was a story on the history channel about the involvement of large U.S. corporations with [non-permissible content removed] Germany.
The UAW, did benefit because some of the shops that built weapons for the military were unionized. The Wyoming, Michigan - GM/Delphi plant was union during WWII and built rifles.
-Rocky
American factories saw huge benefit from war production, the war helped to end the depression...but maybe not so much from the technology acquired right after the war.
So from what you are saying is the UAW is an extension of Communism NOT Socialism In a collective bargaining Union, individual effort is discouraged not rewarded. The guy that puts one 100 tires per hour makes no more than the guy that puts on 10 per hour.
I'm with Bob on this. Your ideas are scary. Just as the thought of Obama being President is scary. The guy is clueless on how to run our country. You cannot give me a good example of a EU country where there are not super wealthy and poor in the same country, if any immigration is allowed. If you want a totally closed society you should seek one out. I don't know of any I would even want to visit, let alone live in.
In light of the riots and unrest among immigrants in France during the fall of 2005, the question of how immigrants are faring with respect to a certain minimum in society is both a timely and pertinent question for a number of European countries. In Norway, the prevalence of poverty is alarmingly high among immigrants and stands in stark contrast to the very low poverty rates for the native Norwegian population. Thus, unless the high poverty rates in the immigrant population are just a temporary feature of the immigrants' initial period of adjustment in the host country, poverty among immigrants is a cause for concern in Norway, too. This paper wishes to serve as a complement or extension of previous studies of immigrant adjustment; the study also aims to provide insights on the substantial heterogeneity -- observed, unobserved and unobservable -- in the immigrant population in Norway.
http://ideas.repec.org/a/spr/jopoec/v18y2005i4p691-718.html
The key is being selective about immigration and thinking of future consequences about both volumes and who is let in. Western Europe as a whole has been irresponsible about immigration, at the very least. This will be a serious problem in the future, the immigrants are kept to insular communities, and the natives resent them. This is the worst postwar mistake of Europe, and it works for nothing but the globalist ideal. No unions under that one, no western standard of living at all. Almost seems intentional.
Maybe the subpar products introduced by the big 2.5 for about 35 years were intentional too...the worker will always get the most blame for a shoddy product...a way to destroy the unions.
Give me a break Rock. I know they are still there because my brother is doing it. In a year it will be a different story. Many are being bought out and my brother is taking early retirement in October.
My point is that GM has concessions coming in from the UAW but most have not taken effect yet and the concessions have not really hit the bottom line yet. Most of the high paid, old time workers are still there in the 2nd quarter. GM did not cut the pay of any current workers. They are still getting full health care. Again, in a year it will be a different story.
When a nation discourages their people from having children as has been the case in parts of the EU and the USA, it leaves room for immigrants to come in and take those jobs left vacant. Immigration is fine if the people assimilate into society. As you have pointed out that is not happening in many EU countries. Those immigrants get the low paying jobs and become the poor of that country. I think we can equate that to what is happening in the USA.
I am reading about Jefferson's striving to keep the US an agrarian society. He was trying to avoid the pitfalls in Great Britain of being industrialized and jammed into cities. I think he was right. We may have ultimately been better off trading corn for cars. Leave all the dirty work for other countries. That is where we are headed right now. Problem is we have built homes on some of the most productive crop land in the USA.
the worker will always get the most blame for a shoddy product.
If your home has shoddy workmanship, do you blame the guy that drew up the plans or the guy swinging the hammer? I do think it is simplistic to blame the UAW for poorly designed cars. I think you can blame them for less than great fit and finish. Mainly because of the contractual language that kept the automakers from changing to more modern methods.
Thank you for setting the record straight. The idea that buyouts and early retirement is something that only the UAW has faced is totally wrong. They are just the latest. All during the 1990s companies such as AT&T, ARCO and IBM were offering early retirement to employees with a lot of seniority. I know this because friends took the buyouts. ARCO offered some great packages in Alaska to their employees before Bill Clinton allowed them to be gobbled up by the foreign Oil company BP. The same guys came back to work in Prudhoe as contract labor. Some made more money as consultants than they had before. Most made less with less benefits. The biggest difference was ARCO was a very friendly company to work for. More like one big family. Under BP it was a dictatorship. They got people to spy on each other and the whole business of searching rooms came about.
There used to be laws against controlling foreign ownership of our companies. They should still be in place. All part of Globalization I am sure. Who allowed Daimler to buy Chrysler and start its downward spiral?
What is Obama's mantra ? Hope and Change." Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that a legislator schooled in the muck-and-mire of urban Chicago politics is going to change anything for the better. An examination of his platform reveals more of the same old stuff, including a big fat bailout for the Big Three.
I'm thinking that if Americans wanted to bail out, say, GM, they could go to their local GM dealer and buy a vehicle at full sticker. They obviously aren't doing that.
Let's try to relate stuff to the UAW please. Thanks.
I think most Americans would buy everything at Wal-Mart and send more money to China if given the chance. There's no thought of a future in so many people.
Except that, when it comes to autos, people are choosing the MORE EXPENSIVE option (price a Honda Accord against an Impala, or even a Malibu).
There is no evidence that "cheap" is the path to long-term success in the auto industry, or that people are buying the cheapest option all the time.
If anything, the trend has been the exact opposite.
The domestics have learned that cost-cutting will come back to bite them in the you-know-what (Ford, at least, has appeared to learn this). They have learned this the hard way.
Even Hyundai is having trouble overcoming its bad reputation earned by selling lots of cheap cars that fell apart within a 3-4 years, despite much-improved vehicles.
Bail Out = Cop Out. Banks or Autos. Period.
BTW, you know it's bad when you can get 0% financing on Corvette!
'Vette Fire Sale ON Now!
Regards,
OW
Well, now's your chance.
Oh, don't even get me started about Daimler's "merge of equals", when instead all they did was rob the Chrysler piggy bank for years until it was empty and then they ran back to Germany.
Personally I think it was a mistake for both. They both seemed to be dragged down by the merger/purchase. Were any UAW contracts lost in that whole deal?
Actually, I interpreted his statement as meaning that they make MORE than $27/hr. I rub elbows with UAW production workers on a daily basis and I have a pretty good idea of what their hourly wage is.
Steve posted a link the other day about 900 Chrysler workers in Fenton losing their jobs. That hits home, as I'm one of them.
As I mentioned in the past, I'm waiting for a buyout offer or early retirement package. After nearly 25 years with the company I don't want to leave without anything. Sitting around collecting unemployment benefits and SUB pay may sound nice but that's over a 50% pay cut for me. Plus, if the company sells out, files bankruptcy, etc., that SUB pay is on shaky ground.
I had an interview with Boeing last Friday. I was told it would last one hour. It ended up lasting nearly 1.5 hours as I sat there being grilled by 4 interviewers. To me that's a positive sign. I figure if they didn't like me at the start I would have been out of there the first 20-25 minutes. The job is affiliated with the IBEW (oh no, another union).