• anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Yup, it's been a long time coming...
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    with those that say "thank goodness it happened quickly." It was just hanging there.

    This isn't meant as a dig at GM, which I do have issues with, but rather saying that maybe they will learn more about survival once knocked from the perch they've always occupied.

    They have some good stuff in the pipeline and are beginning to market things that are a much more direct match to the competition and they've always had niche vehicles to keep them going.

    It likely won't take long for Toyota to be the guys with the bullseye on them.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Only the beginning.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It likely won't take long for Toyota to be the guys with the bullseye on them.

    You can bet on that. I wonder if they just sold more vehicles or more gross $ales. I would rather sell 100k Silverado PU trucks than 100K Corollas. If it is a vehicle count it is more psychological than financial.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Yep....... :(:cry: :sick:

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Oh come on, more psychological than financial? Toyota's annual profits are many many times those of GM, so selling Corollas must be good for something...

    But perhaps I have misunderstood: what is the difference between more vehicles and more "gross sales"? I am sure what this news piece is referring to is more vehicles sold.

    Look down the road to 2015. No-one will hold the title of #1 as long as GM did. And it will be the Chinese to hold it next. But GM may pass Toyota again to become #2 globally (after whoever is the top-dog Chinese automaker), what with its huge expansion in the fastest-growing market in the world, China.

    In sheer gross operating profits, I believe Toyota has been number one globally for a lot longer than just the first quarter of '07. But Porsche still holds the title of highest PER-UNIT profit...I would be intrigued to see anyone knock them off that pedestal.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    But Porsche still holds the title of highest PER-UNIT profit...

    That is hard for me to believe as I would think Bentley, Ferrari, would hold that title. :confuse:

    Well I suppose it's not to hard to believe because they are the only car company I've ever seen that can do a very mild refresh and sell them like hot cakes. They don't have to spend very much on R&D on exterior design because over the last 30 or 40 years Porsche's pretty much look the same. :confuse:

  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I would rather sell 100k Silverado PU trucks than 100K Corollas.

    Not if you make less profit from each Silverado, than they make from each Corolla. Which I would not doubt is the case. The Silverado sells for more, but also costs more to make. If you were to compare total profits, GM would be at the bottom, and not #2.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Oh I'm sorry Rock, I wasn't including niche automakers like Bentley, Ferrari, and the like, I was considering the so-called "volume carmakers", which I guess means you have to sell more than a couple thousand vehicles per year.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I really have no idea what they make on each vehicle. I know they have hung on to selling the big ones for some reason. My impression is there is not a lot to be made on the small cars. I know Toyota made more net profit. What was the gross sales was my question. I guess all the automakers are small potatoes compared to Exxon and WalMart. There was a time that GM was the biggest corporation. They lost that years ago. Now they don't sell as many cars as Toyota. Is that significant to the buyer? Dell sells a lot more computers than Apple or Sun Microsystems. Does that make Dell the best?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Oh I don't think there is any significance to the buyer in this. There isn't even really any to GM or Toyota, except maybe the bragging rights, and who cares? The so-called "winner" just gets thrust more squarely into the harsh spotlight of the global automotive media, as so many here have already pointed out.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Porsche is a volume seller ?...Excuse me while I laugh. What is considered volume ? I haven't seen a newer Porsche, except 1 SUV the other day down here in the Panhandle of Texas, in at least 3 years. If that's volume then I guess I need to be educated on the definition. :confuse:

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Porsche sold 34K+ vehicles in the U.S. alone in 2006. I think the point is, their vehicles are not hand-built, as some of the boutique automakers are. If anyone has Porsche's worldwide sales numbers for 2006, please feel free to chime in. :-)

    It's a lot harder to make massive per-unit profits when you churn out 100K vehicles or more per year and your volume model costs under $50 grand, than when you sell 1000 vehicles worldwide every year, and your volume model has a price in the six digits.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Also when someone goes in to buy a Porsche the dealer knows there is no other car in the class. Kind of a sellers market I would say. I think Porsche has held that distinction for a long time. They are not bad on resale either. Keep it 10 years in perfect condition and you will likely sell it for more than you paid.
  • bigo08bigo08 Member Posts: 102
    I agree with you guys :cry: :mad: :sick:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I am glad that this news is not deterring GM from keeping its head where it should be: the profits.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kc_flynnkc_flynn Member Posts: 45
    Don't fret. With all the quality problems Toyota has been having (i.e. Camry transmissions) let the suckers pay MSRP for a Toyota and the rest of us will get the quality cars at invoice.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    kc_flynn says, "...let the suckers pay MSRP for a Toyota and the rest of us will get the quality cars at invoice."

    You see the flaw in that plan?

    If you want GM to succeed, then paying invoice prices and cutting the GM profit down while expanding Toyota's profit by overpaying at MSRP.

    If you really want to help GM, go out and buy a "quality" GM car at MSRP.
  • kc_flynnkc_flynn Member Posts: 45
    I don't care about GM's profits. Why should I care? It has no impact on my life. That would be like saying I care about Target or Wal Mart's profits. I don't. I just know those are the places I can purchase quality items at the best prices.

    I care about getting a quality car at a good price. Looking out for #1! GM's bounced back with some good new vehicles.

    As a consumer you need to take advantage of that. I took advantage of Ford struggling a few years ago and purchased my new Explorer for $10K off the MSRP price. Been a terrific vehicle that fills our needs.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I just know those are the places I can purchase quality items at the best prices.

    In some cases at Walley World that is true. However most of their products are almost laughable. Especially when it comes to tools or furniture. I could break their pipe wrenches in half with my bare hands. :blush:

  • kc_flynnkc_flynn Member Posts: 45
    Rocky - I don't buy EVERYTHING at Wally World - just using it as an example. You know - why buy a widget for $20, when I can get the same widget for $12? at Walmart :)

    I don't buy clothes there either!

    Seriously, I believe GM makes quality vehicles overall and they are continuously improving. I'd rather buy say a Chevy Impala LT (a car that I really like) for $18K with incentives when GM is doing just ok as opposed to having to go to the dealership and fight tooth and nail with the sales staff, and spend $21.5K with GM profits and demand being high.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    it is still sad that the No. 1 automaker (volume) is Toyota. I've only owned two GM products in my 49 years of driving and they were OK. I have not owned a Toyota product and do not intend to.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Just tossing this on the pile: I buy all my Toyotas at invoice, except the last (I was trying out the internet thing - you don't get 'em down to invoice, but you also don't kill 6 hours at the dealership trying to whittle a sales manager down by $500), which I bought at invoice + 3%.

    Buyers who care about price and know how to deal (this is a minority group IMO) will get just about anyone down to invoice except on new and very popular models, regardless of whether it's a Toyota, Chevy, or Ford.

    GM is on the path, this latest news headline is meaningless in that context, and the path they are on will need another couple of years of travel before they get where they need to be. I hope all the execs quoted in the multiple articles this week actually believe the words coming out of their mouths: they need to be focused on profitability now, and largest market share is not relevant to that goal.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well we have had some very great comeback story's in this country. GM, will be like Rocky Balboa, because fighters, fight ! ;)

  • hondoyotahondoyota Member Posts: 9
    I would just like to say that it is great to see Toyota finally take the number one spot. They have worked very hard and their 50yrs of superior products have finally been fully acknowledged by the auto consumers of the world. Alas... we can only hope for Honda to be next.
  • bigo08bigo08 Member Posts: 102
    50 Years of superior products?? haha plz Toyota only started making decent cars in the 90's

    Toyota is still a POS :)

    Believe me GM isnt out yet... GM has to much pride to lose its title to Toyota..so Toyota fan boys enjoy your victory while it last ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I guess he doesn't remember the 80's camcords that if they saw salt they would turn into dust after 2 winters. ;) If that is 50 years of "superior products" :confuse: Honyota's are only superior on the left coast and in Utah, Idaho. ;) It didn't hurt they had a little help along the way either to achieve their goal of being #1. They are still what #3 or is it lower here in the U.S. ?

    In America GM is #1. Ford is #2 I read today, and Toyota is # 3 ?

  • hondoyotahondoyota Member Posts: 9
    Your loyalty is so cute! Actually, the rust-buckets were made by a company named Nissan (or Datsun at the time), who never actually manufactured the Camry or Accord. Regardless, lets not get into GMC's quality problems of the last 40yrs+. Cheers!
  • bigo08bigo08 Member Posts: 102
    Your right GM had problems in the past.. but now most of their offerings are just as good or better than Toyotas ;)

    BTW whos recalled more Trucks and Cars this year so far?? who hid recalls for 8 years? oh yea thats right Toyota :P

    Toyotas "good quality" image is just a perception people have, like Rocky once said before all of this is said and done GM will get the American people to root for them, and believe me GM will be number 1 again.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Thanks, Pal.... :)

  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    You know Rocky lost his last fight against Mason Dixon, right ? Face it, GM like ROCKY is too old and obsolete in its current form. It needs a major overhaul to even be remotely competitive with TOYOTA. I just shudder to think what will happen to GM with DELPHI collapses which is a real possibility.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    If anyone can topple Toyota, it will be either Hyundai, Honda or one of the up and coming Chinese automakers. I just dont see GM claiming its No.1 spot anytime soon. They are too busy getting their finance in order. Their goal should be profitj first and volume second.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Being a longtime Toyota fan, allow me to interject.

    The Toyota Coronas and Cressidas of the late 1970's in the USA were AWESOME cars - some of the best made this side of MB in that era.

    Built with a lot of steel body parts, they were virtually bulletproof.

    I still see some of them on the road these days, fewer now than just a few short years ago, but every time I see one I point it out to my kids and tell them how awesome those cars were.

    Quoted from this article:

    1970 Corona 1900 Deluxe

    The largely forgotten Corona was the cornerstone of the company’s success in America. The third-generation was replaced by the Camry in the early 1980s. Cumulative sales passed 725,000, proof a generation of Americans had embraced Toyota.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I see you're from Arizona. I imagine those Corona interiors look pretty bad from the sun out there. I see NONE of these cars in existance in Philly. They collapsed into piles of iron oxide decades ago. Even in our temperate climate, the sun played hob with the interiors. My cousin Bob had one - I believe a yellow 1976 model.

    The Cressida wasn't a bad car. My Uncle Macy had one. He called it the "Japanese Mercedes." I see it as sort of a "proto-Lexus."
  • kc_flynnkc_flynn Member Posts: 45
    I had two Toyotas in the 1990s. The paint jobs on them were terrible.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
  • dtstofdtstof Member Posts: 61
    I will be in the market for a mid size crossover or station wagon(yes a wagon). I've owned a couple of GMs, Renaults, Volkswagens, Hondas, Fords and an Audi.
    When I'm in the market for a vehicle, I read Edmunds, Consumer Reports, car magazines and then check out the contenders. My perception of GM is that they make some good looking vehicles, with average to less than average quality. GMs best are above average, but still a notch below Toyota and Honda. If American manufacturers would make less of the same size models and would just start with a good product and improve that model over its run(longer), and not just restyle it. Does Ford really need so many SUVs and crossover models? Korean vehicles are fast approaching the quality level of the American car companies. They will soon pass them up. I'd buy a GM product, if everything worked well, and had the build quality of Toyota or Honda, and had the long term quality of a Japanese vehicle. I like the looks of some of the new GM vehicles. But, when it comes down to it, no, I wouldn't buy one. That's just me, my perception, and I'm only a consumer.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I see it as sort of a "proto-Lexus."

    What became the Lexus LS400 started out in the design stage as a sort of super-Cressida. Toyota still sells the Cressida's descendant in Japan as the Mark X.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Exactly true. A lot of the early luxury appointments on the first LS400 were originally on the Cressida.

    The Cressida also had just about the best and most comfortable bucket seats ever put into a car.

    The thick, soft "crushed velour" seat coverings were some of the nicest cloth seats ever put into a car too.

    Lexus owes a lot of its success to the "Cressida test platform."
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Cressidas also make interesting drag/drift platforms if you have the time and money. A supra Turbo motor fits with a little bit of adjustment to the engine bay.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,664
    Toyotas "good quality" image is just a perception people have

    Tell that to my parents or older brother, who between them have owned a 95 Camry, a 2001 Camry, a 90's 4Runner, a T100, and a Tundra, and none of them ever had a problem or required dealer warranty visits.

    All of those cars combined had less visits to the dealership for repair work in 13 years than my domestic car had in 1 year.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    How funny, I just saw a late-70s Corona on the road today, I was behind it for about ten minutes. It was pulling strongly, looked good too, was passing family sedans and SUVs on long grades.

    With the California environment, many of the really old Toyotas are still out there on the roads. The only thing that gets most of 'em in the end is the smog check.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hondoyotahondoyota Member Posts: 9
    My extended family all used to drive old volvos back when volvo could make reliable vehicles. In the last 10 years, however, almost everyone has switched to toyotas. All together, we have (or have had): an 05 tundra, an 07 FJ, a 98 camry, an 05 highlander, two 01 highlanders, an 03 highlander, an 05 4runner, an 84 pickup, a 71 corona, and an 82 corolla. I would say that combined, these vehicles have seen the repair shop less than 20 times. I'm sorry, but I am very sold on toyota and have never had a reason to think that the "toyota quality" is just a perception. :blush:
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,113
    I've never been Toyota's product fan. For me they are like white bread. Toyota is a GM of Japan, just a little bit better quality of execution of the same concept - mass manufacture least offensive cars you could think of - and that's just not my thing. All they're better from GM is a market trend reading/setting. Five years ago GM has ABS standard, Toyota did not cause nobody cared. Today everybody wants side airbags and ABS, so Toyota puts them in, GM removes ABS from their standard - impecable timing.

    GM is like the guy you watch to learn what NOT TO DO:
    1. Stay in denial for years about your quality.
    2. Cut costs in places that you should not.
    3. Lobby Congress against any changes, no matter how much sense they make as long as they hurt your bottom line in a short run and pretend long-term world trends simply do not exist.
    4. When those trends eventually make ashore and you (of course) get caught unprepared to market shift, mobilize your base with screaming bloody murder and blaming everything from Sun spots, to locust in Eastern hemisphere. Just not you. Cause it's never you, is it?

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    That's all. From Scion, to Toyota, to Lexus, Toyota knows what we want, and gets it to us quickly, and efficiently.

    You know what they say about if brains were dynamite.... :blush:

    That said, GM has righted the ship (just in time), while Ford (in particular) and Chrysler are working hard to recreate GM, circa 1985!

    Dodge is Chrysler's volume brand, and they WON'T build anything for women, unless you want a minivan. That's abandoning 50% of the market (probably more)! :sick:

    Ford can't even afford to redesign their vehicles, and when they do, it makes you say why did they bother? The Mustang is their bread and butter right now, and the New Camaro makes it look like day-old eggs! :lemon:

    Ford is in SERIOUS TROUBLE!

    If the 2009 F-150 is a hit, it still will just tread water, as there are 4 companies coming after it, not 2. It's days of 900k sales are over. They have to LIE about their tow ratings for another 2 years!

    GM is solid, in comparison.

    GM needs to have a SERIOUS plan on making more efficient vehicles. This $3-4 a gallon for gas is a yearly episode now.

    This Chevy Volt maybe the key to GM's future. It has a LOT OF HEAT right now. It has to turn into something tangible, and duplicatable. The days of concept exercises are over for GM. :confuse:

    Prius is selling almost 20k a month! And the car's been on the market for 4 years! This is no fluke! What will the next one sell? The Next Prius will have almost DOUBLE the EPA! We're looking at 80MPG? Think people will buy an 80 MPG car, made by Toyota, when gas is $3.50? It won't hurt Camry or Corolla sales, they've never been stronger.

    What is GM doing? Where are they going? Where is this Two-mode Hybrid Tahoe? It'll take AT LEAST until 2010 to geta Volt to market, probably more like 5 years.

    Toyota could be selling 10k Camry Hybrids a month by then! They're halfway there now! :surprise:

    GM will continue to lose share until this is addressed. Toyota is MUCH better diversified and equipped to handle adverse market conditions. GM needs a Plan B and C. Plan A is struggling, but won't sink them.

  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Toyota believes in engineering, and research and development (improving the product). GM seems to think hiring a new "Fat Cat" executive will solve all the problems. High priced executives, with new marketing strategies, will not improve the products. First Toyota took control of the car market, then it was SUVs, and now Toyota is threatening the last thing GM has, trucks. It's all down hill from here, unless they wise up and start improving the "Product".
  • harrycheztharrychezt Member Posts: 405
    History of ownership:
    77 Camaro, 1985-1987. Rust killed it. had carb problems, too. Lotta stalling. Not bad, though, overall, for a used car.
    87 Spectrum(Chevy/Isuzu), nice, until 14K, then needed a new Master Cylinder(first, and so far,only car I needed this replaced). Brake pads repalced every 18K (mainly hwy) miles. Got in an accident in Aug 89... and it was in and out of the shop until May of 90! The main issue was dec 89, when the dealership said'soemone stole your gascap, and rain water got into the tank. We took it off, drained and dried it, and put it back on"... Rust chunks in the fuel filter, weekly, kept it from running right.
    Dumped it in June of 90, for a
    91 Nissan Sentra XE:
    car stalled at 7K miles, timing was off.
    CV boots at 98K.
    Ran until 233K, then rust started killing it in 1999(due to 2 wrecks).
    97 200sx: Nice until 66K, then died out. needed starter rebuilt,ignition coil, new timing gear, and chain, etc.
    99 Sonata gls v6:
    Fuel recircualtion valve replaced at my $$$, new alternator, new radiator, new turn signal stalk, and had the car in and out once per year for new(free) "Chip" for the engine computer. 119K miles.
    01 Tiburon: great until 99K....
    free axle replaced/bearings up front. 103K, tranny near death.
    04 Sonata GLS V6....
    Had it 41K now. New window motors and seals for rear doors at 31K. free under warranty.
    05 Scion tC:
    at 75K,needed a thermostat(?). 77K, throttle body(iirc) messed up, got stuck shut... free replacement under extended warranty(6/100K).
    Nearly 80K now. Doing fine. MPG is better than the past few weeks, prior to the 2 issues.

    No Maker Is Perfect.
    Mom had a 79 Buick Regal, and it had an electrical fire in 3K miles.
    In-law had a Dodge Aspen , 79 model, his first real new car(he was in his 30's then, always got used before)and it stalled more than 1 time. About every few days. Carb problems.
    He purchased his 2nd new car/vehicle in Oct of 2006,the SX4 CUV.So far, no issues at 17K miles.

    I just buy the vehicle I like, if possible.

    Last GM I liked, though was fun to drive, and versatile, was the 90 Geo Storm.
    Sorry. Like the HHR, but it's Tiny inside.
    No can do.
    Toyota? Most of their stuff is overpriced.
    Scion us ok. Corolla, maybe.
    4 cylinder Camry? eh... depends on sale. Hybrids?
    I trust 'em, spouse doesn't, which means we won't get one anytime soon, unless we get a one at 17K msrp!
    I don't see any from Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc..

    take care/not offense.
This discussion has been closed.