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Toyota Passes GM In Global Sales

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My displeasure with Toyota is well documented here on Edmund's. I bought two new Toyota vehicles 30 years apart and both were less than good vehicles. I expected some improvements by 1994 and found they still built cheap junk.

    I have bought 5 new GM vehicles since 1988 and all were better than average. Three 3/4 ton 4X4 PU trucks a Suburban 4X4 and the newest 1/2 GMC hybrid. I like the newest the least. So my take is GMC is also going backward. None of the GMs have left me stranded. Both the Toyotas left both myself and my son stranded.

    So when you or anyone opens the door to let me criticize Toyota, I feel compelled to do just that. McDonald's is also NUMBER ONE. Are they the best? I think they are comparable to Toyota with lousy products and great marketing. Oh and MCD gives out a dandy dividend on their profits. How about TM?
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    that and the FJ are everywhere in bean town. Haven't seen a lot of new 4 runners though.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    "My displeasure with Toyota is well documented here on Edmund's."
    As a newcomer to these forums, I've seen your angst expressed quite often.
    Too bad you feel that way.
    I find there's a lot more to life than doting on one's unpleasant experiences.
    So you had two bad Toyos and are now on a mission?
    Wow!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    volume automaker is bound to let down the enthusiasts eventually - when you focus on volume, the folks looking for something special and examining every purchase carefully for little details are going to get left out in the cold.

    That is what already happened to GM, and what Toyota has to be very careful to avoid, even though it may be a few years too late. There are plenty of "gagrices" in the world who Toyota will never hear from, who will be less pleased this time than they were with their last Toyota, who will shop elsewhere when it comes time for trade-in.

    That is the insidious nature of the car biz. And Honda will be the next carmaker this rule of thumb applies to if it isn't careful.

    I got the JD Power survey for my new Matrix, had no problems to report in the first 90 days, the thing has operated flawlessly for the first 5000 miles, but boy in the "wish list" section at the end, I listed a whole bunch of things I would like to see more attention paid to in future models!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I see GM bashers every day here on Edmund's that have never owned a GM vehicle. Getting stranded in Bakersfield in the middle of the summer with a brand new 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser is a memorable experience. Four days wasted of a weeks vacation to Yosemite Park. That is one reason I feel for the poor souls that bought into the new Tundra 5.7L thinking that Toyota was reliable. It will come around on them I guarantee it.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    I cannot for the life of me imagine what it must be like to carry such a deep rooted sense of outrage for almost 45 years.
    And be so incensed even after all that time as devote so much internet time seeking revenge.
    Especially over an inanimate object like a car.
    It's kinda sad you feel you have to go to all that trouble for something that occurred so very long ago.
    I hope it's worth it for you.
    IMO, life is too short, and there are much more significant problems to get so bothered about.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Yes, Gary, methinks also that holding a 43-yr-old grudge against Toyota is a LITTLE BIT harsh.

    There is nothing logical about dismissing a single carmaker because of being stranded by a broken down vehicle, because based on that logic, EVERY CARMAKER in HISTORY should be dismissed.

    They have ALL left people stranded.

    Toyota has proven over millions of cars and billions (if not trillions or more) of miles driven that they are a quality carmaker.

    Being Number One in sales does not mean AT ALL that you build the best cars in the world.

    It merely means you do the best job of selling cars.

    If people who are BUYING all those cars you sell start to think your cars are not so good, then the sales champ title will go elsewhere.

    That's what happened to GM, and it will happen to all the Number Ones in the future, including Toyota if they slip on quality as some are predicting.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Yes, Gary, methinks also that holding a 43-yr-old grudge against Toyota is a LITTLE BIT harsh

    You guys crack me up. If I was half as serious about my feelings toward Toyota as you and oldguy are, I would figure I have a real problem. Think about the time the two of you just spent trying to convince the rest of the posters that I was wrong in being upset with Toyota for all these years. Probably my biggest regret is getting rid of the only thing Toyota built that is considered a classic. The 1964 Land Cruiser I owned would be worth 10 times today what it cost me new. In good condition that is. Aside from the engine crapping out 4 times in 50k miles it was a cool vehicle.

    I can tell you without a doubt the two of you are far more rabid pro Toyota spin doctors, than I am anti Toyota.

    PS
    This was not Toyota's fault :shades:

    image
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    FOR THE RECORD, I'm not "Pro Toyota", and sure as heck not a "Spin Doctor".
    Gawd, I don't even own a Toyota, and the spin doctor thing IMO is just irrational knee jerk hyperbole.
    Accusations like that are presumptuous at best, and just plain silly at worst.
    I would expect better from a child!!
    All I have ever done here is try to spread a little oil on the water--tone down the embellishing--add a little common sense to the discussion.
    Lordy, if that comes as wrong to you Gagrice, then I understand why you hold grudges for so long!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    FOR THE RECORD, I'm not "Pro Toyota", and sure as heck not a "Spin Doctor"

    You really need to go back and read your posts objectively. If I spent half as much time bashing Toyota as you spend defending them you might have a point. A totally unbiased poster, as you claim to be, would be over at the GM boards defending GM against the myriad of GM bashers hanging out there.

    There is a difference between holding a grudge and having a long memory. :) I have some wonderful memories in that Land Cruiser, when the engine was running. If you were around back then you would have read some of our articles in 4X4 and Dune buggy News. My wife and I made the cover 3 times with our Land Cruiser. You need to take this forum less serious. It is for FUN and learning.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    get back to discussing Toyota and GM and spend less time trying to categorize each other?

    Thanks.
  • hondoyotahondoyota Member Posts: 9
    5 new GM's since 1988 and 2 toyota's in 30 yrs?

    That sounds just about right to me :blush:
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    There can really be only one, official, Toyota "Spin Dr.". Right?

    :blush:

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    And will make a solid #2 (pardon the pun).

    And they still make the 'Vette, one of the best cars you can buy.

    I wish Toyota hadn't caste away the mighty Supra. It was business, nothing personal.

    Alas, this will be Toyota's philosophy from here out. At the end of the day, it's all about the Benjamins.

    I feel, when the dust has settled, about 10 years from now, there will be two tiers of automakers:

    Toyota: 20-22% of the market
    GM: 18-20%

    Ford/Honda/Nissan/Hyundai/Chrysler: 10% apiece

    Ford will drop Mercury, eventually, to conserve precious resources (should've done this by now), and actually increase Ford brand sales (Perish the thought)! :surprise:

    DrFill
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Ummm, Chrysler? Don't think so. And you forgot the Chinese and the Germans. And there is no way Toyota or GM will have a 20% global share. Or did you mean in the U.S. only? I believe the topic is a global one.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If Toyota wants to make the Tundra more reliable, they should just ditch their 5.7 V-8 and drop in a Chevy small block!!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They could buy engines from Nissan. I understand the Titan V8 is a very good engine. They could trade for hybrid technology that Nissan is getting from Toyota.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Why? The 5.7 hasn't been shown to be problematic. Yay, so a couple of camshafts were bad. We've been over that already... Other than that, why make false claims of the Tundra being "unreliable"?

    GM spent years covering up piston slap issues with their "Like a Knock" V8's. Maybe GM would be better off ditching theirs? :shades:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here is the latest, referring to news regarding wage concesion negotiations between UAW, GM and Delphi:

    U.S. automakers pay their factory workers an average of about $73 per hour in wages and benefits, compared to just $44 per hour for the three major Japanese car makers operating plants in North America, according to industry data.

    In the past, the Detroit automakers have agreed to costly labor contracts, but this time the car makers are united in believing they have no choice but to close the cost gap.

    One industry executive said the companies were resolved to move jobs overseas, changing the "footprint" of production, if they could not reduce their U.S. labor costs.


    What a disaster!

    Regards,
    OW
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I forgot, I don't really care about the world, just this country. My bad. :blush:

    DrFill
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Ford will drop Mercury, eventually, to conserve precious resources (should've done this by now), and actually increase Ford brand sales (Perish the thought)!

    I suspect you are correct and expect this to happen in the next 10 years or sooner. While there are some differences between a Fusion and a Milan, for example, there aren't enough to justify the additional manufacturing and marketing costs. There certainly is a lot of duplicated effort.
    Boz
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Anyone see the sales for June yet?
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Last I saw Ford and Chrysler are down but I haven't seen anyone else check in yet.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    AP
    GM's June U.S. Sales Drop, Toyota Jumps
    Tuesday July 3, 4:27 pm ET
    By Jeff Karoub, Associated Press Writer
    GM's June U.S. Sales Drop 21.3 Percent, Toyota Jumps 10.2 Percent :blush:
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2007070389166

    June Analysis:

    Yaris is strong
    Corolla is relatively flat
    Camry is up but helped largely by the hybrid model; otherwise flat
    Prius is hot hot hot
    Scion ranges are ready to be replaced
    Aside from the LS & IS, Lexus car line needs a jump kick. What happened to the ES in June?
    RAV4 and Highlander continues to sell well but otherwise Sienna, FJ, 4Runner, LC, Sequoia are down.
    Performing well in trucks segment, especially the Tundra.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    link GM Media - June Sales

    FWIW, GM had a really good June last year but anyway:

    A lot of numbers down compare to last year but still a few bright spots - Impala, Grand Prix, 9-3, Enclave, Acadia, Outlook
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    'Bu should sell well when it arrives. I actually took a look at the '08 Malibu, on the net for a while, anyway.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    The New Bu looks so ugly in my opinion. I seriously doubt it will put a dent in Camcord sales. The Saturn Aura is a good looking car and it is not selling nearly as well as GM expected.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Out of the Aura, G6 and malibu, the only one I find attractive is the Aura. It also seem to be the one best screwed together (Aside from the misalignment issues from Karl's blog). Saturn forums don't help either as the one I visit shows Aura trannys are problematic, electricals are iffy, but anyways... If I had to settle for any of them, the Saturn would probably be it.

    The Malibu spent the past decade as a fleet queen,
    47.9% in 2005
    60.3% in 2006, + 44% "Classics"
    58.8% in 2007

    so I don't expect the new one to break out of that mold and the G6 is probably thee worst car GM has in their stable right now (Now that the Monte Carlo is scrapped). At least the Saturn inherited the lessons learned from the G6 and got a decent, if not remarkable interior upgrade. Why sales are so sluggish is probably the deal that can be had on the other two.
  • writerwriter Member Posts: 121
    "Is [being the biggest seller of vehicles] significant to the buyer?"

    Indirectly it is important to me right now. Over the years the GM, Ford and Chrysler dealerships have been dwindling. I used to live fairly close to an area where the dealerships stayed pretty solid (near Yorkdale in Toronto, Canada to be specific), so while I was aware of what was happening, it was not important to me. Recently I moved a bit further west. Not much really, but a couple more miles away from the dealerships that I have dealt with for most of my life. I am now in a sort "black hole" for dealerships. I have been trying to pick a new dealership to user for my main work. To get too or from a dealership could now take me over 1 hour by transit (public busses -- all require at least 2 busses because they are indirect routes), or probably just a bit shorter by the dealer's shuttle van driver (remember that the dealer shuttles have to come to me first and *then* driver me to the dealership), or maybe 30 - 40 min. by taxi at quite a bit higher cost.

    So maybe the next vehicle I buy might be the result of a canvas of the nearest dealerships?

    The point is that car companies can only support more dealerships if they are selling sufficient quantities. Being big makes it easier to get even bigger.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    GM spent years covering up piston slap issues with their "Like a Knock" V8's. Maybe GM would be better off ditching theirs?

    Was that during the same time period that Toyota, covered up recalls for at least 8 years to maintain a perception of flawless ???? :D

    -Rocky
  • carlover20carlover20 Member Posts: 20
    GM vehicles are the worst. There reliability is horrible there buils quility stinks and all of the cars that the make are so bland inside and out. Toyota offers a lot more for the money. Also all those people who say your not supporting america if you dont buy an american vehicle, more Toyota's are made in america than Chevy's.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Reason #1:

    Toyota enjoys much lower labor costs in the United States and benefits from an undervalued yen for cars made in Japan. In the United States, this comes to about $2500 per vehicle. The entry level and middle level market segments are very sensitive to price and vehicle durability. Toyota has been able to translate its cost advantage into vehicles with higher, more attractive content and longer life than General Motors. Toyota’s Camry and Corolla, and derivatives of those cars, have been able to dominate their market spaces—they set the standard others must follow and they establish the price thresholds.

    Reason #2

    Toyota is constantly looking for ways to lower costs and improve products. It translates most of the additional profits it earns, over GM, into better product design and additional capacity. At GM, the Executives vote themselves bonuses and the union demands more benefits and featherbedding at the first sign of profits.

    Reason #3

    Toyota offers customers cars that are less expensive and less trouble to own, over the life of the cars. Toyota’s don’t break as much and perform well. GM vehicles require more repairs and don’t age well.

    There is way more but I wanted to K.I.S.S.

    Regards,
    OW
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    The unpalatable vehicles produced and passed of as competition, up until about 5 years ago.

    GM didn't get the wake up call for quite a while.

    The train pretty much hit 'em anyway, they were so lax. :sick:

    DrFill
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Also all those people who say your not supporting america if you dont buy an american vehicle, more Toyota's are made in america than Chevy's.

    Is that why Toyota, still imports 51% of it's automobiles in to the United States ? :D

    -Rocky
  • carlover20carlover20 Member Posts: 20
    How many Chevrolet's are made in the United States.
  • pmuscepmusce Member Posts: 132
    GM vehicles are the worst. There reliability is horrible there buils quility stinks and all of the cars that the make are so bland inside and out. Toyota offers a lot more for the money. Also all those people who say your not supporting america if you dont buy an american vehicle, more Toyota's are made in america than Chevy's.

    Where are you getting your information from? US Production through October 14th (Source: Automotive News):

    Toyota Car - 414,491
    Toyota Truck - 339,642

    GM Car - 743,156
    GM Truck - 1,483,827

    Through September 2007, Toyota has sold 905,833 vehicles in the US that were imported from Japan. That puts them on pace for more than 1.1 million for the year. By comparison, GM sold 75,000 imported cars.

    Toyota sold 1,095,813 cars made in domestically in the same period. GM sold 2,859,189 in the same period.

    As for Toyota division vs Chevrolet:

    Toyota division sold 1,040,934 cars made domestically from Jan-Aug 2007. They also sold 615,400 cars imported from Japan.

    Chevrolet sold 2,314,279 cars made domestically from Jan-Aug 2007. They also sold 49,147 cars imported from Japan.

    I won't even argue your antiquated views on GM quality.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I think you are getting your numbers from a place that considers Canada and Mexico to be "domestic", whereas the person with whom you were having that dialog does not.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • pmuscepmusce Member Posts: 132
    I think you are getting your numbers from a place that considers Canada and Mexico to be "domestic", whereas the person with whom you were having that dialog does not.

    The production numbers I posted at the top are for US only (not including Canada and Mexico). The sales numbers would include Canada and Mexico produced vehicles as well since Automotive News does not break them out.

    The point is the other person's facts are wrong no matter which way you look at it. GM builds way more vehicles in the US then Toyota. Toyota imports over 1,000,000 cars a year from Japan. Those are facts.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    why is it so damn hard to find those imported yotas at my local dealership? Or most of them were sold in the left coast?
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    Their reliability is starting to drop according to Consumer Reports (although not by much). Rapid expansion, catering to the idiotic bohemoth designs that Americans "want" and the proliferation of U.S. assembly plants might be taking a toll.
    http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/16/autos/cr_reliability/index.htm
  • pmuscepmusce Member Posts: 132
    why is it so damn hard to find those imported yotas at my local dealership? Or most of them were sold in the left coast?

    Well, lets see. All of these Toyota's are imported:

    Prius
    Yaris
    4Runner
    FJ Cruiser
    Highlander
    Land Cruiser
    RAV4
    Camry (50,000 have been imported this year)
    Corrolla (23,000 imported)

    As well as the following:

    All Scions
    All Lexus
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    We've only just begun. The romance is not over!

    Camry and Tundra are revolutionary designs, and the low ratings only affect certain segments of each line.

    I EXPECT quality to take a hit on the first year of such market-changing redesigns. :surprise:

    This doesn't mean Toyota has lost it's magic. The same magazine just voted Tundra the best pick-up in America. :blush:

    And 4 of their 10 Best Cars for 2007 are Toyotas (Prius, Highlander Hybrid, Sienna, Rav4).

    If Toyota duplicates this anomoly with a poor performance next year, then we've got a problem. :mad:

    Toyota, if anybody does, gets the benefit of the doubt, no? :confuse:

    But this is good too. It's a not-so-gentle wake up call. And the company will bounce right back in the rankings next year. No doubt. ;)

    DrFill
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The Lexus RX350 is built in Canada. And isn't the Highlander also built either in Canada or the U.S.?

    I believe you stated that GM imported only 75K cars for the year? But doesn't it sell more Aveos annually than that? And they are all built in Korea. And I am sure that some other GM vehicles are built in Mexico and/or Canada, which makes me wonder what you were referring to with the 75K figure.

    As for CR vs JDP vs "my neighbor's horror story" in the quest to rate reliability, the debate will never be settled I am sure. I don't think it is a good sign that in the last couple of years Toyota's ranking has subsided by both of the published measures.

    Toyota is, however, dead set on increasing production capacity in the States so that it doesn't have to import any more Corollas or Camrys. I am sure that will happen in short order, relatively speaking.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Rav will be built in Canada soon, Highlander in Miss. or Alabama soon - I can't remember.

    As far as reliability slip, yes, I think they have slipped a little. Even Toyota has admitted that months ago, and they have said they will correct the problem. With the biggest bank account in the business, and the proven ability to make the most reliable cars in the past, I have no doubt Toyota will be back on top very soon. Until then, they are still better than most.

    Personally, I have had no issues with a '89, '94,'99, '01, and '07, other than a few rattles with the '01 that were completely solved under warranty. Never left me stranded, late for work, or late for anywhere, and no safety issues either. By the way, the '01 that had the rattles was built in Japan, the others were built in the USA.
  • pmuscepmusce Member Posts: 132
    The Lexus RX350 is built in Canada. And isn't the Highlander also built either in Canada or the U.S.?

    I believe you stated that GM imported only 75K cars for the year? But doesn't it sell more Aveos annually than that? And they are all built in Korea. And I am sure that some other GM vehicles are built in Mexico and/or Canada, which makes me wonder what you were referring to with the 75K figure.


    Sorry, you are correct. Most RX350's are built in Canada. They still imported 20,000 from Japan as well. So far all Highlanders are imported.

    For the first 9 months of this year, GM has sold 49,000 Aveo's.

    As I stated previously, the production figures I posted for Toyota and GM were for the United States only. The sales figured I posted were Domestic vs Imported, which for the Domestic sales totals would have included Canada and Mexico for both Toyota and GM.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I think my confusion probably lay in your practice of quoting domestic and import sales and production figures together as if to reinforce each other, when in fact "domestic" and "import" didn't mean the same thing for both sales and production.

    In general the original post you were responding to was the type of inflammatory post that always makes me cringe here at Edmunds if I come across it. I did find it telling that in Consumer Reports' latest press release, the domestic brand with the most reliability consistency across the brand was Ford, the domestic company currently doing the worst of the three.

    And that by their reckoning GM's top brand, Buick, was only at number ten on the list or something like that. It was good to see that the new Acadia/Outlook/Enclave were some of their most reliable vehicles currently, along with other recent intros like the Aura. It shows a turnaround that is definitely continuing (and dare I say, picking up pace?) at GM. I also think GM will be much more profitable once it builds a business model that allows it to cater to niches, as many of the new Pontiacs will do, and sell regular ol' cars at a decent profit, while designing them to excel in their class.

    I also think that being the global volume leader in vehicle sales is a formula for quality control disaster, and even the vaunted Toyota can't seem to escape this fate. If it reins everything WAY in, I think it will be able to get things back under control, but in that case it may also occur that GM and Toyota begin to trade the top post on the sales ladder back and forth for a while to come.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Thanks for answering the question and backing it up with facts. :)

    -Rocky
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Rav will be built in Canada soon,"

    Where is the RAV 4 built now?
This discussion has been closed.