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I have bought 5 new GM vehicles since 1988 and all were better than average. Three 3/4 ton 4X4 PU trucks a Suburban 4X4 and the newest 1/2 GMC hybrid. I like the newest the least. So my take is GMC is also going backward. None of the GMs have left me stranded. Both the Toyotas left both myself and my son stranded.
So when you or anyone opens the door to let me criticize Toyota, I feel compelled to do just that. McDonald's is also NUMBER ONE. Are they the best? I think they are comparable to Toyota with lousy products and great marketing. Oh and MCD gives out a dandy dividend on their profits. How about TM?
As a newcomer to these forums, I've seen your angst expressed quite often.
Too bad you feel that way.
I find there's a lot more to life than doting on one's unpleasant experiences.
So you had two bad Toyos and are now on a mission?
Wow!
That is what already happened to GM, and what Toyota has to be very careful to avoid, even though it may be a few years too late. There are plenty of "gagrices" in the world who Toyota will never hear from, who will be less pleased this time than they were with their last Toyota, who will shop elsewhere when it comes time for trade-in.
That is the insidious nature of the car biz. And Honda will be the next carmaker this rule of thumb applies to if it isn't careful.
I got the JD Power survey for my new Matrix, had no problems to report in the first 90 days, the thing has operated flawlessly for the first 5000 miles, but boy in the "wish list" section at the end, I listed a whole bunch of things I would like to see more attention paid to in future models!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And be so incensed even after all that time as devote so much internet time seeking revenge.
Especially over an inanimate object like a car.
It's kinda sad you feel you have to go to all that trouble for something that occurred so very long ago.
I hope it's worth it for you.
IMO, life is too short, and there are much more significant problems to get so bothered about.
There is nothing logical about dismissing a single carmaker because of being stranded by a broken down vehicle, because based on that logic, EVERY CARMAKER in HISTORY should be dismissed.
They have ALL left people stranded.
Toyota has proven over millions of cars and billions (if not trillions or more) of miles driven that they are a quality carmaker.
Being Number One in sales does not mean AT ALL that you build the best cars in the world.
It merely means you do the best job of selling cars.
If people who are BUYING all those cars you sell start to think your cars are not so good, then the sales champ title will go elsewhere.
That's what happened to GM, and it will happen to all the Number Ones in the future, including Toyota if they slip on quality as some are predicting.
You guys crack me up. If I was half as serious about my feelings toward Toyota as you and oldguy are, I would figure I have a real problem. Think about the time the two of you just spent trying to convince the rest of the posters that I was wrong in being upset with Toyota for all these years. Probably my biggest regret is getting rid of the only thing Toyota built that is considered a classic. The 1964 Land Cruiser I owned would be worth 10 times today what it cost me new. In good condition that is. Aside from the engine crapping out 4 times in 50k miles it was a cool vehicle.
I can tell you without a doubt the two of you are far more rabid pro Toyota spin doctors, than I am anti Toyota.
PS
This was not Toyota's fault :shades:
Gawd, I don't even own a Toyota, and the spin doctor thing IMO is just irrational knee jerk hyperbole.
Accusations like that are presumptuous at best, and just plain silly at worst.
I would expect better from a child!!
All I have ever done here is try to spread a little oil on the water--tone down the embellishing--add a little common sense to the discussion.
Lordy, if that comes as wrong to you Gagrice, then I understand why you hold grudges for so long!!
You really need to go back and read your posts objectively. If I spent half as much time bashing Toyota as you spend defending them you might have a point. A totally unbiased poster, as you claim to be, would be over at the GM boards defending GM against the myriad of GM bashers hanging out there.
There is a difference between holding a grudge and having a long memory.
Thanks.
That sounds just about right to me
DrFill
And they still make the 'Vette, one of the best cars you can buy.
I wish Toyota hadn't caste away the mighty Supra. It was business, nothing personal.
Alas, this will be Toyota's philosophy from here out. At the end of the day, it's all about the Benjamins.
I feel, when the dust has settled, about 10 years from now, there will be two tiers of automakers:
Toyota: 20-22% of the market
GM: 18-20%
Ford/Honda/Nissan/Hyundai/Chrysler: 10% apiece
Ford will drop Mercury, eventually, to conserve precious resources (should've done this by now), and actually increase Ford brand sales (Perish the thought)! :surprise:
DrFill
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
GM spent years covering up piston slap issues with their "Like a Knock" V8's. Maybe GM would be better off ditching theirs? :shades:
U.S. automakers pay their factory workers an average of about $73 per hour in wages and benefits, compared to just $44 per hour for the three major Japanese car makers operating plants in North America, according to industry data.
In the past, the Detroit automakers have agreed to costly labor contracts, but this time the car makers are united in believing they have no choice but to close the cost gap.
One industry executive said the companies were resolved to move jobs overseas, changing the "footprint" of production, if they could not reduce their U.S. labor costs.
What a disaster!
Regards,
OW
DrFill
I suspect you are correct and expect this to happen in the next 10 years or sooner. While there are some differences between a Fusion and a Milan, for example, there aren't enough to justify the additional manufacturing and marketing costs. There certainly is a lot of duplicated effort.
Boz
GM's June U.S. Sales Drop, Toyota Jumps
Tuesday July 3, 4:27 pm ET
By Jeff Karoub, Associated Press Writer
GM's June U.S. Sales Drop 21.3 Percent, Toyota Jumps 10.2 Percent
June Analysis:
Yaris is strong
Corolla is relatively flat
Camry is up but helped largely by the hybrid model; otherwise flat
Prius is hot hot hot
Scion ranges are ready to be replaced
Aside from the LS & IS, Lexus car line needs a jump kick. What happened to the ES in June?
RAV4 and Highlander continues to sell well but otherwise Sienna, FJ, 4Runner, LC, Sequoia are down.
Performing well in trucks segment, especially the Tundra.
FWIW, GM had a really good June last year but anyway:
A lot of numbers down compare to last year but still a few bright spots - Impala, Grand Prix, 9-3, Enclave, Acadia, Outlook
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The Malibu spent the past decade as a fleet queen,
47.9% in 2005
60.3% in 2006, + 44% "Classics"
58.8% in 2007
so I don't expect the new one to break out of that mold and the G6 is probably thee worst car GM has in their stable right now (Now that the Monte Carlo is scrapped). At least the Saturn inherited the lessons learned from the G6 and got a decent, if not remarkable interior upgrade. Why sales are so sluggish is probably the deal that can be had on the other two.
Indirectly it is important to me right now. Over the years the GM, Ford and Chrysler dealerships have been dwindling. I used to live fairly close to an area where the dealerships stayed pretty solid (near Yorkdale in Toronto, Canada to be specific), so while I was aware of what was happening, it was not important to me. Recently I moved a bit further west. Not much really, but a couple more miles away from the dealerships that I have dealt with for most of my life. I am now in a sort "black hole" for dealerships. I have been trying to pick a new dealership to user for my main work. To get too or from a dealership could now take me over 1 hour by transit (public busses -- all require at least 2 busses because they are indirect routes), or probably just a bit shorter by the dealer's shuttle van driver (remember that the dealer shuttles have to come to me first and *then* driver me to the dealership), or maybe 30 - 40 min. by taxi at quite a bit higher cost.
So maybe the next vehicle I buy might be the result of a canvas of the nearest dealerships?
The point is that car companies can only support more dealerships if they are selling sufficient quantities. Being big makes it easier to get even bigger.
Was that during the same time period that Toyota, covered up recalls for at least 8 years to maintain a perception of flawless ????
-Rocky
Toyota enjoys much lower labor costs in the United States and benefits from an undervalued yen for cars made in Japan. In the United States, this comes to about $2500 per vehicle. The entry level and middle level market segments are very sensitive to price and vehicle durability. Toyota has been able to translate its cost advantage into vehicles with higher, more attractive content and longer life than General Motors. Toyota’s Camry and Corolla, and derivatives of those cars, have been able to dominate their market spaces—they set the standard others must follow and they establish the price thresholds.
Reason #2
Toyota is constantly looking for ways to lower costs and improve products. It translates most of the additional profits it earns, over GM, into better product design and additional capacity. At GM, the Executives vote themselves bonuses and the union demands more benefits and featherbedding at the first sign of profits.
Reason #3
Toyota offers customers cars that are less expensive and less trouble to own, over the life of the cars. Toyota’s don’t break as much and perform well. GM vehicles require more repairs and don’t age well.
There is way more but I wanted to K.I.S.S.
Regards,
OW
GM didn't get the wake up call for quite a while.
The train pretty much hit 'em anyway, they were so lax. :sick:
DrFill
Is that why Toyota, still imports 51% of it's automobiles in to the United States ?
-Rocky
Where are you getting your information from? US Production through October 14th (Source: Automotive News):
Toyota Car - 414,491
Toyota Truck - 339,642
GM Car - 743,156
GM Truck - 1,483,827
Through September 2007, Toyota has sold 905,833 vehicles in the US that were imported from Japan. That puts them on pace for more than 1.1 million for the year. By comparison, GM sold 75,000 imported cars.
Toyota sold 1,095,813 cars made in domestically in the same period. GM sold 2,859,189 in the same period.
As for Toyota division vs Chevrolet:
Toyota division sold 1,040,934 cars made domestically from Jan-Aug 2007. They also sold 615,400 cars imported from Japan.
Chevrolet sold 2,314,279 cars made domestically from Jan-Aug 2007. They also sold 49,147 cars imported from Japan.
I won't even argue your antiquated views on GM quality.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The production numbers I posted at the top are for US only (not including Canada and Mexico). The sales numbers would include Canada and Mexico produced vehicles as well since Automotive News does not break them out.
The point is the other person's facts are wrong no matter which way you look at it. GM builds way more vehicles in the US then Toyota. Toyota imports over 1,000,000 cars a year from Japan. Those are facts.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/16/autos/cr_reliability/index.htm
Well, lets see. All of these Toyota's are imported:
Prius
Yaris
4Runner
FJ Cruiser
Highlander
Land Cruiser
RAV4
Camry (50,000 have been imported this year)
Corrolla (23,000 imported)
As well as the following:
All Scions
All Lexus
Camry and Tundra are revolutionary designs, and the low ratings only affect certain segments of each line.
I EXPECT quality to take a hit on the first year of such market-changing redesigns. :surprise:
This doesn't mean Toyota has lost it's magic. The same magazine just voted Tundra the best pick-up in America.
And 4 of their 10 Best Cars for 2007 are Toyotas (Prius, Highlander Hybrid, Sienna, Rav4).
If Toyota duplicates this anomoly with a poor performance next year, then we've got a problem. :mad:
Toyota, if anybody does, gets the benefit of the doubt, no? :confuse:
But this is good too. It's a not-so-gentle wake up call. And the company will bounce right back in the rankings next year. No doubt.
DrFill
I believe you stated that GM imported only 75K cars for the year? But doesn't it sell more Aveos annually than that? And they are all built in Korea. And I am sure that some other GM vehicles are built in Mexico and/or Canada, which makes me wonder what you were referring to with the 75K figure.
As for CR vs JDP vs "my neighbor's horror story" in the quest to rate reliability, the debate will never be settled I am sure. I don't think it is a good sign that in the last couple of years Toyota's ranking has subsided by both of the published measures.
Toyota is, however, dead set on increasing production capacity in the States so that it doesn't have to import any more Corollas or Camrys. I am sure that will happen in short order, relatively speaking.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As far as reliability slip, yes, I think they have slipped a little. Even Toyota has admitted that months ago, and they have said they will correct the problem. With the biggest bank account in the business, and the proven ability to make the most reliable cars in the past, I have no doubt Toyota will be back on top very soon. Until then, they are still better than most.
Personally, I have had no issues with a '89, '94,'99, '01, and '07, other than a few rattles with the '01 that were completely solved under warranty. Never left me stranded, late for work, or late for anywhere, and no safety issues either. By the way, the '01 that had the rattles was built in Japan, the others were built in the USA.
I believe you stated that GM imported only 75K cars for the year? But doesn't it sell more Aveos annually than that? And they are all built in Korea. And I am sure that some other GM vehicles are built in Mexico and/or Canada, which makes me wonder what you were referring to with the 75K figure.
Sorry, you are correct. Most RX350's are built in Canada. They still imported 20,000 from Japan as well. So far all Highlanders are imported.
For the first 9 months of this year, GM has sold 49,000 Aveo's.
As I stated previously, the production figures I posted for Toyota and GM were for the United States only. The sales figured I posted were Domestic vs Imported, which for the Domestic sales totals would have included Canada and Mexico for both Toyota and GM.
In general the original post you were responding to was the type of inflammatory post that always makes me cringe here at Edmunds if I come across it. I did find it telling that in Consumer Reports' latest press release, the domestic brand with the most reliability consistency across the brand was Ford, the domestic company currently doing the worst of the three.
And that by their reckoning GM's top brand, Buick, was only at number ten on the list or something like that. It was good to see that the new Acadia/Outlook/Enclave were some of their most reliable vehicles currently, along with other recent intros like the Aura. It shows a turnaround that is definitely continuing (and dare I say, picking up pace?) at GM. I also think GM will be much more profitable once it builds a business model that allows it to cater to niches, as many of the new Pontiacs will do, and sell regular ol' cars at a decent profit, while designing them to excel in their class.
I also think that being the global volume leader in vehicle sales is a formula for quality control disaster, and even the vaunted Toyota can't seem to escape this fate. If it reins everything WAY in, I think it will be able to get things back under control, but in that case it may also occur that GM and Toyota begin to trade the top post on the sales ladder back and forth for a while to come.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-Rocky
Where is the RAV 4 built now?