I liike GM/Ford (US) designs allot more than Japanese designs. I am not too hot for anything German, especially with the quality issues...
The thing is, on the stats sheets, many Ford and GM cars have good solid advantages over Japanese products
The GM SUV's are more fuel efficient thant the Toyotas The Ford 500/Taurus has more room at a lower price than the avalon, and anything honda offers Etc.
The problem is, the perception and sometimes reality of quality issues...
Take me for example. I really like the G6, I think its allot better than a honda accord or Nissan Altima. Its got more power than the accord, and more style than either... but the complaints I hear from owners really make methink twice.
If it was not for the quality I think GM would not have a problem, because now they have for the most part fixed the fuel economy issue, and are closely matching the feature content, its just quality.
You can bet on that. I wonder if they just sold more vehicles or more gross $ales. I would rather sell 100k Silverado PU trucks than 100K Corollas. If it is a vehicle count it is more psychological than financial.
The unforeseen trap of inventory turns raises it's head here.
Let's say a typical Silverado goes for about $30000 and has a wholesale cost of say $25000 for a GM dealer ( 'retail price' for GM the manufacturer ). Silverado's by recent reports are sitting on the lots for about 120 days on average I believe.
A typical Silverado at full sticker generates about $10000 in profit.
A Typical LE Corolla goes for about $12000 wholesale cost but they have a typical turn ratio of 30 days or less.
Such a Corolla at full sticker probably generates $2000 ( up to $4000 ) in profit to Toyota depending on whether the breakeven point has been reached.
Silverado's generally have incentives ranging from $1000 to $4000, with $1000 being the current level. Corollas generally have incentives ranging from $500 to $750 currently.
Now the math. If you had $50000 to invest in buying vehicles you could buy.. two $25000 Silverados...or four $12000 Corollas.
In a 120 day period you would sell both Silverado's but in that same time you'd also be able to sell 16 Corollas.
On the two Silverado's you'd incur 120 days of interest cost on $50000 @ 7% Prime or about $1200 or $600 per vehicle. On the Corolla's you'd incur 30 days of interest on each $12000 or $70 per vehicle.
GM the manufacturer receives two profits of $10000 each less incentives ( $1000 / veh ) or a net of about $18000. Toyota the manufacturer receives 16 profits of $3000 each less incentives ( $750 x 16 ) or a net of about $36000!!!!
A dealer selling 2 Silverado's might make $3000 per vehicle - less interest cost. $6000 - $1200 = $4800 NET. A dealer selling 16 Corolla's might make $1000 per vehicle - less interest cost. $16000 - ( $70 x 16 ) = $14880 NET.
Would you like to tie up your $50000 on two vehicles generating $4800 or 16 vehicles generating $14880? Inventory turns are life and death in the auto industy both from a manufacturing pov and a retail pov.
After owning a number of Toyota's now, I believe that Toyota specifically designs their vehicles to have good EPA numbers. When the vehicle is actually driven, I have obtained mpg values approximately 20 % lower than the EPA rating (i.e. Tacoma 22-27 (city - highway) obtained 18-20 regularly, Corolla 32 - 41, obtained 25-28 regularly). The Prius is advertised at a whopping 60-51, however, virtually no one gets over 45 mpg. With EVERY other vehicle (about 10) that I have owned (except Subaru which also gets about 20 % lower mpg) in the last 10 years, the EPA values are very close to real world values even with my lead foot. I am looking forward to the "new EPA" ratings to see if Toyota maintains the mpg lead. My experience is that Toyota makes some good cars and trucks, but I believe Honda is the mpg leader by far for cars geared comparably, weigh comparably and have the same approximate power. Although I believe that Toyota fudges their mpg, I do not see GM or Ford regaining their market share. I have given GM and Ford free advice for years on this forum about increasing the reliability of their vehicles and offering a Hyundai-type warranty (5-60) to maintain market share, however, I still see only marginal movements with a lot of talk from zealots who own stock in GM about how the quality margin between Toyota and GM is actually small. Well, no more advice. Now GM and Ford can pay me my consultant fee of $500 / h like everyone else if they want my input.
My Toyotas of the last few years: 2000 4Runner V-6 4WD, rated 17/20 EPA, my running average was 19.5
2002 Toyota Celica GT, rated 28/33 EPA, my running average was 32
2003 Toyota Matrix auto, rated 27/33, my average was 31.
2007 Toyota Matrix 5-speed manual, rated 30/36, my average 34.5.
2002 Toyota Echo, rated 34/41, my average 40.5.
1990 Toyota 4Runner V-6 4WD, rated 16/19, my averages were 19.5 before I put on oversize offroad tires, about 17 after the huge tires were on.
I could go on, but I would have to look up the EPA ratings of older Toyotas I have owned. Bottom line: one anecdote for you, one for me. The intent of EPA ratings is strictly to be a frame of reference for comparison between vehicles.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
4 Camrys, and a Prius ( my drives ) MR2, Highlander V6 4WD and Solara V6 ( my wife's )
On every single one of them I get or exceed the current EPA estimates ( adjusted for specific driving conditions of course ). 1997-2005 both 4c Camry's averaged about 31 mpg ( 33 mpg summer and 30 mpg winter ) on an annual basis. 2005 Prius - 48 mpg 42000 mi. ( 51 mpg summer and 45 mpg winter ) 2004 Highlander - 23 mpg 2007 Solara ( the few times I can get her let it go ) - 27 mpg.
But then I also got EPA values on the '93 Escort as well, without straining.
John, I hope you were kidding in posting this comment. You do know of course that Toyota has no say about what the FE ratings are on the vehicles..nor does GM nor Ford nor Daimler nor BMW.
It's the EPA that determines the values not the manufacturer. You did know that, didn't you?
Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory.
So I think "some people" (mostly cynics) think that a car company COULD IN THEORY fudge a test result or two.
My personal opinion is that no car company would want to risk the bad press which would arise from getting caught admitting a EPA test "fudge" and that fact is a deterrent which has most likely been 100% effective at keeping the results honest.
Actually, what they do to "fudge" the tests is design their cars to perform very well for the SPECIFIC test that the EPA conducts (sometimes at the expense of real-world fuel efficiency). Up until recently, the EPA test was not very reflective of real-world driving conditions, and whether or not the EPA rating accurately reflected real-world numbers was pretty hit-or-miss.
It's the EPA that determines the values not the manufacturer. You did know that, didn't you?
Allow me to be more specific. I truly and genuinely believe that Toyota specifically engineers cars and trucks designed for sale in the US for optimal mpg on the EPA test (i.e. the EPA test has a maximum speed of 48 mph and Toyota probably gears the car for maximum mpg at that velocity, the no air drag affecting performance, etc.) and not for actual driving conditions in the U.S.
If you are talking about the hybrids, then you are "partially" correct.
The hybrid HSD system that Toyota designed DOES do well on the unrealistic old EPA test.
But to think that was the INTENT of the designers:
"Hey, let's build an evolutionary car and make sure it can smoke the EPA test !!!!"
That's not reality.
The coincidence of the result was that the HSD system spent more time in electric mode than is realistic, thus the 60 MPG City result on the old, flawed EPA test.
To think that was designed intentionally into the car.......a LEEEEETTTTTTLLLLLLEEEE bit far fetched.
quote, "I truly and genuinely believe that Toyota specifically engineers cars and trucks designed for sale in the US for optimal mpg on the EPA test (i.e. the EPA test has a maximum speed of 48 mph and Toyota probably gears the car for maximum mpg at that velocity, the no air drag affecting performance, etc.) and not for actual driving conditions in the U.S.
If that's true, we will soon know.
Because if they were stupid enough to do that, then the new EPA test will HAMMER they Toyota fleet worse than all the other manufacturers who don't "design in" technology to succeed in a 40-year-old severely flawed EPA test.
PS I'm moving further comments over to the "New EPA Tests will impact MPG estimates" forum.....find me there, I've got more to say....
To take this to it's logical conclusion I understand that what you're saying is that the vehicles are designed to perform well in lower speed situations with reduced effects from drag; 48 mph iso 78 mph. That is the vehicles are boxier by design with a higher coefficient of drag than necessary. Since the testing is done at lower speeds the higher coefficient of drag is not so important.
However when NA drivers get into the vehicles and drive at 70-80 mpg the intentially-boxier-design and higher coefficient of drag kills the fuel economy.
That's an awful lot of trouble to go through to 'fudge' the results, don't ya think? Why do it?
Being came from China of Asia, allowed me to express my oriental view point of the Japanese Auto- Toyota & others like Honda are determined to hit the US auto, they look for the weak points of US-the durability; and take up the market bit by bit so Americans would not be so repulsive to import cars at the start; now the Sedan sections are finished; so they will eat the Pick Ups which was the area I heard before people saying Japaneses not knowing how to make Pick ups
But word is beginning to filter out that the domestics in the U.S. are now up to the reliability and durability standards of the imports, so they may not get a chance to grab the pick-up market based solely on their old rep.
OTOH, they may yet grab some of that segment based on the merits of the product alone.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I agree. Trucks are the sole good story in the US auto market in terms of segment sales. If quality improves, this will be tough for the asians because the truck customers are more loyal. (That could be the reason for the unexpected incentives on the Tundra.)
Currently, the quality in pickups is stable but not great, IMO. If that does not improve, it's only a matter of time.
Here is my question. If Toyota is the Green leader in the automotive industry, why were they not able to build a truck that was both more powerful and get better mileage? If you match like model to like model Toyota is on average at least 1 MPG under the competition from Number ONE GM.
Well if you look at what the Sierra Denali's are getting in mpg vs. what Tundra owners are getting it's night and day. The Denali owner's are getting anywhere from 20-22 mpg going 70 mph in 6th gear.
Their market research showed that full-size pick-up buyers were much less interested in fuel economy than in having lots of power for towing and space for cargo, so they took a gamble and designed the thing intentionally to be class-leading in towing and hauling, mpg be darned. They were nervous about this beforehand, and justifiably so, I would say.
But the Tundra is now selling faster than the old model did, so the risk probably worked out OK.
I think Toyota has decided to focus its efforts on selling "green" to car buyers. We will now see GM sell "green" to truck and SUV buyers. In a year or so, a compare and contrast will be in order! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hittin' the sales floor for Toyota starting tomorrow, so now I can see things from the inside.
Other than a new Highlander this Summer, and a new Corolla next Spring, I don't expect much in the way of product news.
With $4 gas, Prius sales should be quite brisk! Yaris and Corolla move nicely as well. Tundra is building momentum (Manager says he has trouble keeping them in stock), and I can sell Scions as well, so there is no time like the present.
If anyone is in the Houston area, stop by Tejas and see me.
They had a decent April, and yes, Tundra, as dr fill said, had the best April ever(well, he said hard time keeping them in stock). Corolla, april 06 vs 07, 07 Was Down, nationwide sales. Prius and Yaris are up(they made a mistake on here, the Camry was Down 2.2%, not up). Seems all their cars are down for April, except the 2 I mentioned as being up!For YTD, though, Scion is down across the line, as is the Avalon( may be due, on Scion's part, people waiting either for a bargain sale, perhaps, for the discontinued , older xB and xA's, or the new version of xB and xD...and the tC is rumored for later next year . 4th quarter or early 09?)Dr Fill: on http://intellichoice.com future vehicles, 2009, they mention a 4 door xR Scion, sport sedan(maybe to face Lancer?).... any clues?
The company's market value has surged by more than 70 percent to $219 billion since he took charge in June 2005, making it more than 12 times bigger than GM.
Surpassing GM
Toyota surpassed GM 50 years after exporting its first passenger car to the U.S. The Japanese carmaker is forecast by some industry analysts to exceed GM on an annual basis this year aided by fuel-efficient models including the RAV4 SUV, Yaris compact car, and Prius gasoline-electric hybrid.
Sales at Toyota include those of subsidiaries Daihatsu Motor Co. and Hino Motors Ltd. Toyota group sales should increase 6 percent to 9.34 million vehicles in 2007, the carmaker said in December. Production in 2007 will rise 4 percent to 9.42 million vehicles.
says little about any qualities of GM or Toyota, beyond the fact that the world globalized, reducing the importance of the U.S. market a great deal. And whereas Toyota globalized with the industry and took advantage of markets all over the world, GM remained very focused on the States for too long. The start of the SUV craze 15 years ago sealed the fate of GM's fall to second place, when GM execs saw those huge juicy profits from SUV and truck sales, and feasted on them too greedily...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Big SUV's helped big 3 in the 90's and early 00's, but now? Not according to this chart/story. Gas 3-4 per gallon? Sales going downwards? Sounds like a repeat of the late 70's and most of the 1980's. My now deceased mother had a 73 Impala, and traded it in for a "smaller" v6 Buick Regal(1979).BTW, the 79 Buick Regal? I saw an old one, maybe early 80's, same model, is the same size of the Sonata. Today, a Sonata is labelled "large"-by EPA methods-car. Anyhow...... large cars suffered as gas went up in 79-81, and suv's doing the same, by almost all makers( with a few exceptions).
Shinya Naruse, auto analyst with Nomura Securities in Tokyo, said toppling GM in global vehicle production is just the latest in Toyota's victories because it has already beaten GM in profit, which is more important.
"But it is a very visible step, and it's only a matter of time," he said. "It's difficult to give one explanation for Toyota's success but it's simply its ability to come up with attractive products that sell."
Simple really. Toyota understands their intended market and they usually hit the mark dead on. I'll probably never own a Toyota (car) because frankly, there is no excitment there but I can understand why so many people choose them over the competition. They're A-B transportation for non-enthusiasts, they do what they need to with little fuss and not much drama. Competitive gas mileage, top notch reliability, good crash test scores, low TCO and respected quality have been the hallmark of Toyota products and there's really no reason to shop anything else. Call it a comfort zone.
Toyota earned the top spot long ago and I hope they fight to retain it. :shades:
I really have no idea what they make on each vehicle. I know they have hung on to selling the big ones for some reason. My impression is there is not a lot to be made on the small cars. I know Toyota made more net profit. What was the gross sales was my question. I guess all the automakers are small potatoes compared to Exxon and WalMart. There was a time that GM was the biggest corporation. They lost that years ago. Now they don't sell as many cars as Toyota. Is that significant to the buyer? Dell sells a lot more computers than Apple or Sun Microsystems. Does that make Dell the best?
toyota not only sells more cars, they make BETTER CARS. is there really any doubt?? my goodness. hmmm trailblazer quality?? uhhhh NO.
AND THE RANKINGS DON'T LIE WHEN JD POWER AND ASSOC REPORTS THEIR DEPENDABILITY FINDINGS. i don't think you find very many GM cars or trucks anywhere near the top. what a joke.
You can bet on that. I wonder if they just sold more vehicles or more gross $ales. I would rather sell 100k Silverado PU trucks than 100K Corollas. If it is a vehicle count it is more psychological than financial.
yeah, too bad toyota usually sells more than 100K Lexus RX a year. too bad they sell so many camry's too. too bad they sell so many ES/IS vehicles that they are approaching 100K a year.
too bad the RAV4 is such a hot seller too. man it must suck that they sell so many sienna minivans too. man, too bad the tacoma and tundra sell over 100K units as well. shucks.
wow, too bad they offer a lot of hybrids too.
too bad they have the camry, 4runner and the avalon in their lineup too. that just drove the nail in the coffin.
You sound a lot like me. If anyone has doubts that the big 3 will be no more, check out the new Honda CR(A)- V(E). That is one nice piece of work. Assuming the quality reputation that Honda has, this will be a success story if I ever have seen one.
Now make it a hybrid and ensure 30 mpg and there will be a waiting list.
This another example added on to the excellent examples you mentioned from Toyota/Lexus, the new World's Champ!
Between Toyota, Honda, Lexus, Acura, the Koreans and the Chinese, who thinks U.S. Auto will gain market share???
Please answer this because I see no way to stop the bleeding. I do not like it but the coffin was sealed long ago. What you see now is the procession to the cemetary.
Toyota is no fun to drive, I agree; and even technical ordinary, but Japanese improve step by step; now they begin to challenge Germans-the new Lexus 460 has 8 gears automatic transmission, but Toyota has no 7 gear, why? because Mercedes said before they are the first to have 7 gear.
Actually Saturn is showing promise. It's basically Opel now, with the ION replacement coming and the 2008 VUE almost here. Ford is figuring out how to use it's Euro division as well as Japanese experience (both contained in Mazda) to boost the quality and desirability of their cars. GM has no Japanese division, but if they can leverage Opel's successful designs and experience they might recover.
For a long time now I wouldn't buy a Big 3 vehicle. I'm still leery of Chrysler and most of GM, but Saturn and a couple of the new Fords are starting to tickle my interest a bit.
While I have 3 Toyota's ( 6 in the last 6 years ) in my driveway I give GM great credit for two product lines that should be fantastic for their market presence and for their appearance to the public.
The 3 lambda crossovers stand alone in the crossover/minivan people mover segment. No other vehicle maker has what these have.
GM has also gone it's own way in the hybrid vehicle segment with the 2-modes. No they aren't on the market yet but from all reports the system seems well built and developed and ready to drop into any number of heavy vehicles. Again this is a segment where GM is alone.
Being alone in the market with good product is a formula for success.
I just want to add my 2 cents to the postings, Toyota has steped up to the plate and Toyota doesn't really need to offer such deep discounts or incentives even employee discounts to get buyers into their dealerships, Its not an illusion that you see the Camry in more peoples driveways these days or more people buying the Tundra, it comes down to quality and wanting to drive your car or truck longer than having it fall apart after 3 to 5 years. Also I must add that GM is making improvements especially with their Saturn line bring out the Aura and Vue seem to be popular and their 5 year 100,000 mile warranty will get people looking at GM in better quality standards.
Remember, I never said GM or any of the US auto companies couldn't lead any market segment if their goals and their organizations were aligned to achieve the desired result.
They just never had the total package do get it done. Again, they let it slip away and the slide is picking up momentum.
GM will not be able to recapture it's title of worlds largest auto maker for two very important reasons: the 2008 toyota highlander and 2008/9 corolla. These are two of toyota's best sellers right now, and redesigns will only legnthen the gap between GM :lemon: and toyota :shades:
As you well know the sales figures are somewhat skewed. GM actually sold more vehicles World wide when you include all the auto companies that GM partially owns.
If the Highlander and Corolla take a step backward as the Camry & Tundra has they may lose more than they gain.
450 thousand Camry copies make it onto soil per year, only 12% of those are fleet. The #2 selling car isn't even close.
That doesn't sound like a cause for concern...
How has the Tundra taken a step backward? Sales have gone up, the truck is vastly improved and on par, if not superior to the domestic makes.
Thing is, Toyota understands its intended market very well and they usually hit the mark when it comes to new product intros. They may do nothing for the enthusiasts here at Edmunds, but they still build a solid "appliance" for those A-B transportaion folks. Exactly what the Corolla and Highlander missions are.
I think the anti-Toyota crew is in for some deep disappointment if you think these are going to bellyflop.
I would say a big share of the Camry purchases were from previous Camry owners. I have only talked to two of them and both were not happy with the new model vs the older one. We will not know the outcome until those people buy another car. Will they give Toyota another shot? Who knows?
We will not know how the 5.7L engine problems will pan out until the June sales figures come out.
Sure, 2 of them didn't like the new one. But if the new one was SO bad, why are they selling at all? I mean, come to NewEngland, they're everywhere. Haven't seen them broken down on the sides of the highway and they don't appear to be piling up on used car lots either. So somebody must be liking them out there...
And yes, we'll see in June if the Tundra is affected by the Camshaft issue. But at the moment worst case scenario says to me that the monthly sales figures are going to be off by 20 units :P
I don't think the problems are the kind that evoke dumping a new car. Things like handling, cheaper interior, squeaks and rattles, along with the occasional defective transmission are more of an inconvenience. Buyers will be more apt to look around on the next car purchase. I know cousin did not consider any other car as she was very happy with her 1999 Camry. She does not like her 2007 V6 XLE. Leaves it in the garage and drives the 99 most of the time.
I don't know man, if I had a car with a defective tranny I would be a bit warry of keeping it. Even after it was replaced who's to say the next one doesn't destruct? Maybe others are different, hell my buddy went through TWO GMC Sierras before finally moving on to a Toyota Tundra back in March. So maybe the steady sales of the Camry is because disappointed owners of first year models have upgraded to a newer one? If that's the case, I'd be curious the amount of used 7th gens are out there.
It's curious why you're so consistently negative about Toyota. Care to share? Bad experience? Laid off autoworker or supplier? Just don't like imports? All of the above? That said, I offer some info about who is leading who in sales and other stuff. Toyo is ahead--no.1-- in world wide units sold. Market share in the US is increasing by about 4%, annuallized as of last month. GM is ahead in unit sales in the US. Market share, however, is slightly down (again) in the US and declining world wide by about 3%, annualized. Toyota's profits are consistent year on year, and exist in all markets including the US. GM made a small profit world wide for the first time in several quarters, but is losing money in the US. To GM's credit, they have some impressive new products which they are marketing aggressively. The race is getting interesting, but the outcome is far from a sure thing for GM just now. I've been a GM owner since the 60s--still am--a Silverado. Also owned a Toyota or two--they were decent cars and I'd buy another. Right now the sedan ride is an Audi--it's giving good service. Haven't really had a bad experience with any previous rides--Ford, Buick, Chrysler, Jag., Lincoln Town Car. Maybe I'm just an optomist??
Comments
The thing is, on the stats sheets, many Ford and GM cars have good solid advantages over Japanese products
The GM SUV's are more fuel efficient thant the Toyotas
The Ford 500/Taurus has more room at a lower price than the avalon, and anything honda offers
Etc.
The problem is, the perception and sometimes reality of quality issues...
Take me for example. I really like the G6, I think its allot better than a honda accord or Nissan Altima. Its got more power than the accord, and more style than either... but the complaints I hear from owners really make methink twice.
If it was not for the quality I think GM would not have a problem, because now they have for the most part fixed the fuel economy issue, and are closely matching the feature content, its just quality.
Huh?
RAV4: City Mileage: 21-24 mpg Hwy Mileage: 27-30 mpg
Equinox: City Mileage: 19 mpg Hwy Mileage: 25-26 mpg
Advantage: Toyota
Highlander: City Mileage: 18-22 mpg Hwy Mileage: 24-28 mpg
Highlander Hybrid: City Mileage: 31-32 mpg Hwy Mileage: 27 mpg
Acadia: City Mileage: 17-18 mpg Hwy Mileage: 24-26 mpg
Outlook: City Mileage: 17-18 mpg Hwy Mileage: 25-26 mpg
Advantage: Toyota
4Runner: City Mileage: 16-18 mpg Hwy Mileage: 19-22 mpg
Trail Blazer: City Mileage: 14-16 mpg Hwy Mileage: 17-22 mpg
Advantage: Toyota
FJ Cruiser: City Mileage: 17-19 mpg Hwy Mileage: 21-22 mpg
H3: City Mileage: 15 mpg Hwy Mileage: 19 mpg
Advantage: Toyota
Land Cruiser: City Mileage: 13 mpg Hwy Mileage: 17 mpg
Sequoia: City Mileage: 15 mpg Hwy Mileage: 18 mpg
Tahoe: City Mileage: 15-16 mpg Hwy Mileage: 20-22 mpg
Yucon: City Mileage: 13-16 mpg Hwy Mileage: 19-22 mpg
Advantage: GM
Toyota is leading GM in fuel efficiency in 4 out of 5 SUV categories. So huh? :confuse:
The unforeseen trap of inventory turns raises it's head here.
Let's say a typical Silverado goes for about $30000 and has a wholesale cost of say $25000 for a GM dealer ( 'retail price' for GM the manufacturer ). Silverado's by recent reports are sitting on the lots for about 120 days on average I believe.
A typical Silverado at full sticker generates about $10000 in profit.
A Typical LE Corolla goes for about $12000 wholesale cost but they have a typical turn ratio of 30 days or less.
Such a Corolla at full sticker probably generates $2000 ( up to $4000 ) in profit to Toyota depending on whether the breakeven point has been reached.
Silverado's generally have incentives ranging from $1000 to $4000, with $1000 being the current level. Corollas generally have incentives ranging from $500 to $750 currently.
Now the math. If you had $50000 to invest in buying vehicles you could buy..
two $25000 Silverados...or
four $12000 Corollas.
In a 120 day period you would sell both Silverado's but in that same time you'd also be able to sell 16 Corollas.
On the two Silverado's you'd incur 120 days of interest cost on $50000 @ 7% Prime or about $1200 or $600 per vehicle.
On the Corolla's you'd incur 30 days of interest on each $12000 or $70 per vehicle.
GM the manufacturer receives two profits of $10000 each less incentives ( $1000 / veh ) or a net of about $18000.
Toyota the manufacturer receives 16 profits of $3000 each less incentives ( $750 x 16 ) or a net of about $36000!!!!
A dealer selling 2 Silverado's might make $3000 per vehicle - less interest cost. $6000 - $1200 = $4800 NET.
A dealer selling 16 Corolla's might make $1000 per vehicle - less interest cost. $16000 - ( $70 x 16 ) = $14880 NET.
Would you like to tie up your $50000 on two vehicles generating $4800 or 16 vehicles generating $14880? Inventory turns are life and death in the auto industy both from a manufacturing pov and a retail pov.
2000 4Runner V-6 4WD, rated 17/20 EPA, my running average was 19.5
2002 Toyota Celica GT, rated 28/33 EPA, my running average was 32
2003 Toyota Matrix auto, rated 27/33, my average was 31.
2007 Toyota Matrix 5-speed manual, rated 30/36, my average 34.5.
2002 Toyota Echo, rated 34/41, my average 40.5.
1990 Toyota 4Runner V-6 4WD, rated 16/19, my averages were 19.5 before I put on oversize offroad tires, about 17 after the huge tires were on.
I could go on, but I would have to look up the EPA ratings of older Toyotas I have owned. Bottom line: one anecdote for you, one for me. The intent of EPA ratings is strictly to be a frame of reference for comparison between vehicles.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
MR2, Highlander V6 4WD and Solara V6 ( my wife's )
On every single one of them I get or exceed the current EPA estimates ( adjusted for specific driving conditions of course ).
1997-2005 both 4c Camry's averaged about 31 mpg ( 33 mpg summer and 30 mpg winter ) on an annual basis.
2005 Prius - 48 mpg 42000 mi. ( 51 mpg summer and 45 mpg winter )
2004 Highlander - 23 mpg
2007 Solara ( the few times I can get her let it go ) - 27 mpg.
But then I also got EPA values on the '93 Escort as well, without straining.
John, I hope you were kidding in posting this comment. You do know of course that Toyota has no say about what the FE ratings are on the vehicles..nor does GM nor Ford nor Daimler nor BMW.
It's the EPA that determines the values not the manufacturer. You did know that, didn't you?
EPA only themselves test some of the cars:
Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory.
So I think "some people" (mostly cynics) think that a car company COULD IN THEORY fudge a test result or two.
My personal opinion is that no car company would want to risk the bad press which would arise from getting caught admitting a EPA test "fudge" and that fact is a deterrent which has most likely been 100% effective at keeping the results honest.
That may change with the new tests.
Allow me to be more specific. I truly and genuinely believe that Toyota specifically engineers cars and trucks designed for sale in the US for optimal mpg on the EPA test (i.e. the EPA test has a maximum speed of 48 mph and Toyota probably gears the car for maximum mpg at that velocity, the no air drag affecting performance, etc.) and not for actual driving conditions in the U.S.
The hybrid HSD system that Toyota designed DOES do well on the unrealistic old EPA test.
But to think that was the INTENT of the designers:
"Hey, let's build an evolutionary car and make sure it can smoke the EPA test !!!!"
That's not reality.
The coincidence of the result was that the HSD system spent more time in electric mode than is realistic, thus the 60 MPG City result on the old, flawed EPA test.
To think that was designed intentionally into the car.......a LEEEEETTTTTTLLLLLLEEEE bit far fetched.
If that's true, we will soon know.
Because if they were stupid enough to do that, then the new EPA test will HAMMER they Toyota fleet worse than all the other manufacturers who don't "design in" technology to succeed in a 40-year-old severely flawed EPA test.
PS I'm moving further comments over to the "New EPA Tests will impact MPG estimates" forum.....find me there, I've got more to say....
To take this to it's logical conclusion I understand that what you're saying is that the vehicles are designed to perform well in lower speed situations with reduced effects from drag; 48 mph iso 78 mph. That is the vehicles are boxier by design with a higher coefficient of drag than necessary. Since the testing is done at lower speeds the higher coefficient of drag is not so important.
However when NA drivers get into the vehicles and drive at 70-80 mpg the intentially-boxier-design and higher coefficient of drag kills the fuel economy.
That's an awful lot of trouble to go through to 'fudge' the results, don't ya think? Why do it?
So Highway EPA is hardly affected in the new 2008 EPA numbers.
DrFill
Toyota & others like Honda are determined to hit the US auto, they look for the weak points of US-the durability; and take up the market bit by bit so Americans would not be so repulsive to import cars at the start; now the Sedan sections are finished; so they will eat the Pick Ups which was the area I heard before people saying Japaneses not knowing how to make Pick ups
OTOH, they may yet grab some of that segment based on the merits of the product alone.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Currently, the quality in pickups is stable but not great, IMO. If that does not improve, it's only a matter of time.
Regards,
OW
-Rocky
"Our famous committment to responsible vehicles that save the planet? Just behind our new Tundra CrewMax there..."
More toons at Xcargrl's CarSpace page (link).
But the Tundra is now selling faster than the old model did, so the risk probably worked out OK.
I think Toyota has decided to focus its efforts on selling "green" to car buyers. We will now see GM sell "green" to truck and SUV buyers. In a year or so, a compare and contrast will be in order! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Other than a new Highlander this Summer, and a new Corolla next Spring, I don't expect much in the way of product news.
With $4 gas, Prius sales should be quite brisk! Yaris and Corolla move nicely as well. Tundra is building momentum (Manager says he has trouble keeping them in stock), and I can sell Scions as well, so there is no time like the present.
If anyone is in the Houston area, stop by Tejas and see me.
I'm the tall, dark and handsome one.
DrFill
They had a decent April, and yes, Tundra, as dr fill said, had the best April ever(well, he said hard time keeping them in stock).
Corolla, april 06 vs 07, 07 Was Down, nationwide sales.
Prius and Yaris are up(they made a mistake on here, the Camry was Down 2.2%, not up). Seems all their cars are down for April, except the 2 I mentioned as being up!For YTD, though, Scion is down across the line, as is the Avalon( may be due, on Scion's part, people waiting either for a bargain sale, perhaps, for the discontinued , older xB and xA's, or the new version of xB and xD...and the tC is rumored for later next year . 4th quarter or early 09?)Dr Fill: on http://intellichoice.com
future vehicles, 2009, they mention a 4 door xR Scion, sport sedan(maybe to face Lancer?).... any clues?
Anyhow....
take care/not offense.
The company's market value has surged by more than 70 percent to $219 billion since he took charge in June 2005, making it more than 12 times bigger than GM.
Surpassing GM
Toyota surpassed GM 50 years after exporting its first passenger car to the U.S. The Japanese carmaker is forecast by some industry analysts to exceed GM on an annual basis this year aided by fuel-efficient models including the RAV4 SUV, Yaris compact car, and Prius gasoline-electric hybrid.
Sales at Toyota include those of subsidiaries Daihatsu Motor Co. and Hino Motors Ltd. Toyota group sales should increase 6 percent to 9.34 million vehicles in 2007, the carmaker said in December. Production in 2007 will rise 4 percent to 9.42 million vehicles.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Big SUV's helped big 3 in the 90's and early 00's, but now? Not according to this chart/story.
Gas 3-4 per gallon? Sales going downwards? Sounds like a repeat of the late 70's and most of the 1980's.
My now deceased mother had a 73 Impala, and traded it in for a "smaller" v6 Buick Regal(1979).BTW, the 79 Buick Regal? I saw an old one, maybe early 80's, same model, is the same size of the Sonata.
Today, a Sonata is labelled "large"-by EPA methods-car.
Anyhow......
large cars suffered as gas went up in 79-81, and suv's doing the same, by almost all makers( with a few exceptions).
This thing may FLY off of lots, when it gets here, next Jan..
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/05/08/diesel-vw-jetta-sportwagen-a-real-fuel-sipper- /
60hwy/40 city, Under 20,000 dollars to start.
tc/no
Shinya Naruse, auto analyst with Nomura Securities in Tokyo, said toppling GM in global vehicle production is just the latest in Toyota's victories because it has already beaten GM in profit, which is more important.
"But it is a very visible step, and it's only a matter of time," he said. "It's difficult to give one explanation for Toyota's success but it's simply its ability to come up with attractive products that sell."
K.I.S.S. - Goodbye Big! Hello Godzilla!
Regards,
OW
Toyota earned the top spot long ago and I hope they fight to retain it. :shades:
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/05/08/diesel-vw-jetta-sportwagen-a-real-fuel-sipper- - /
60hwy/40 city, Under 20,000 dollars to start.
I like it a lot. Enough to buy one even though the closest VW dealer is 60 miles away.
Regards,
OW
toyota not only sells more cars, they make BETTER CARS. is there really any doubt?? my goodness. hmmm trailblazer quality?? uhhhh NO.
AND THE RANKINGS DON'T LIE WHEN JD POWER AND ASSOC REPORTS THEIR DEPENDABILITY FINDINGS. i don't think you find very many GM cars or trucks anywhere near the top. what a joke.
yeah, too bad toyota usually sells more than 100K Lexus RX a year. too bad they sell so many camry's too. too bad they sell so many ES/IS vehicles that they are approaching 100K a year.
too bad the RAV4 is such a hot seller too. man it must suck that they sell so many sienna minivans too. man, too bad the tacoma and tundra sell over 100K units as well. shucks.
wow, too bad they offer a lot of hybrids too.
too bad they have the camry, 4runner and the avalon in their lineup too. that just drove the nail in the coffin.
Now make it a hybrid and ensure 30 mpg and there will be a waiting list.
This another example added on to the excellent examples you mentioned from Toyota/Lexus, the new World's Champ!
Between Toyota, Honda, Lexus, Acura, the Koreans and the Chinese, who thinks U.S. Auto will gain market share???
Please answer this because I see no way to stop the bleeding. I do not like it but the coffin was sealed long ago. What you see now is the procession to the cemetary.
Regards,
OW
why?
because Mercedes said before they are the first to have 7 gear.
For a long time now I wouldn't buy a Big 3 vehicle. I'm still leery of Chrysler and most of GM, but Saturn and a couple of the new Fords are starting to tickle my interest a bit.
The 3 lambda crossovers stand alone in the crossover/minivan people mover segment. No other vehicle maker has what these have.
GM has also gone it's own way in the hybrid vehicle segment with the 2-modes. No they aren't on the market yet but from all reports the system seems well built and developed and ready to drop into any number of heavy vehicles. Again this is a segment where GM is alone.
Being alone in the market with good product is a formula for success.
Also I must add that GM is making improvements especially with their Saturn line bring out the Aura and Vue seem to be popular and their 5 year 100,000 mile warranty will get people looking at GM in better quality standards.
They just never had the total package do get it done. Again, they let it slip away and the slide is picking up momentum.
Regards,
OW
If the Highlander and Corolla take a step backward as the Camry & Tundra has they may lose more than they gain.
That doesn't sound like a cause for concern...
How has the Tundra taken a step backward? Sales have gone up, the truck is vastly improved and on par, if not superior to the domestic makes.
Thing is, Toyota understands its intended market very well and they usually hit the mark when it comes to new product intros. They may do nothing for the enthusiasts here at Edmunds, but they still build a solid "appliance" for those A-B transportaion folks. Exactly what the Corolla and Highlander missions are.
I think the anti-Toyota crew is in for some deep disappointment if you think these are going to bellyflop.
We will not know how the 5.7L engine problems will pan out until the June sales figures come out.
And yes, we'll see in June if the Tundra is affected by the Camshaft issue. But at the moment worst case scenario says to me that the monthly sales figures are going to be off by 20 units :P
Care to share? Bad experience? Laid off autoworker or supplier? Just don't like imports? All of the above?
That said, I offer some info about who is leading who in sales and other stuff.
Toyo is ahead--no.1-- in world wide units sold. Market share in the US is increasing by about 4%, annuallized as of last month.
GM is ahead in unit sales in the US. Market share, however, is slightly down (again) in the US and declining world wide by about 3%, annualized.
Toyota's profits are consistent year on year, and exist in all markets including the US.
GM made a small profit world wide for the first time in several quarters, but is losing money in the US.
To GM's credit, they have some impressive new products which they are marketing aggressively.
The race is getting interesting, but the outcome is far from a sure thing for GM just now.
I've been a GM owner since the 60s--still am--a Silverado. Also owned a Toyota or two--they were decent cars
and I'd buy another.
Right now the sedan ride is an Audi--it's giving good service.
Haven't really had a bad experience with any previous rides--Ford, Buick, Chrysler, Jag., Lincoln Town Car.
Maybe I'm just an optomist??
There are also 536 07' Impalas on the market
And 333 07' Malibus...
416 07' G6's...
500 miles of Zip 02154