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Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?
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You've mentioned it before.... one of the big issues is perception, and ironically, that perception is fostered by the manufacturers themselves. Other than icons like the Corvette, and (maybe) Cadillac, most of the American auto industry holds the competition up as the target, thereby cementing the thought in consumers' minds. Put it this way... you've NEVER seen a commercial for butter saying "I can't believe it's not margarine" have you? Yet I've seen many American ads and interviews with auto folk that talk about Honda/Toyota reliability/value, BMW handling, Porsche performance etc.
Caddy is having a tough time; the product is great, or at least significantly better than it's been, yet the image has not merged with the new buyers that Caddy is designing for, and the older folks are feeling a bit left out. Corvette, some of the same - the four gold chain/mid life crisis set that bought 'vettes some time ago, find the new "too European," and the folk who are buying M3s, 911s etc, don't seriously consider Corvette.
The problem for domestic automakers is that it's tricky "drawing upon the past". There is little glorious racing history except for NASCAR and more recent American car successes (not enough to interest most consumers) and the prestige factor for American cars is so far back in the past (Cadillac in the 50s was the last real world class prestige for an American luxury car) that most people who experienced that are almost too old to drive anymore.
The Europeans have plenty of prestige history (world's oldest automaker, etc), lots of racing glory, and, as you said, plenty of products that the japanese and Americans are slavishly trying to copy.
It's a tough problem, and I really have no opinion (hard as that is to believe :P ) on how to turn it around.
I mean, history is history, you can try to fabricate it but that's pretty risky.
Yeah we have muscle cars and hot rods and all that, but this is niche stuff....
And people are pretty sick of 'retro" at this point, don't you think?
(the problem with "retro" marketing is----what do you do next? A newer "retro"?)
Yeah... you laugh, but wait until you see "Gremlin/Pinto/Pacer" styling cues everywhere.
LOLOL
I have become used to the idea where I live that I will never see an American model passenger car. It's just a fact - except for poorer areas where a lot of ex-rental cars end up, American cars don't exist in the scene around here. That in itself is negatively self-reinforcing: American cars get associated with poverty.
But recently I am making a point of taking notice when I see (new) American cars, and one or two models ARE out there: the Focus sells enough to notice, and usually the drivers look young. I think a lot of the parents that didn't buy their progeny a Civic bought them a Focus.
The new Malibu is SELLING here. It is so weird to see new Chevy cars on the street, but I have already seen several. Considering what I have seen of the redesign, I am not surprised.
Saturns are NOT selling - I think they waited too long to give the Saturn dealers something to sell, and nobody remembers that the brand exists any more. But another year or two will tell the story. They USED to sell here quite a lot, but that was more than ten years ago.
Vibes have sold pretty well around here since they were introduced, but I think that is partly because of the close association with Toyota.
That's about it for cars. The most popular (nationally) domestic trucks and SUVs sell well here, of course, and the new crossovers are selling well too - that's the only new Saturn I ever see for instance, the Vue. Have seen a few of the new Lambdas, and the Escape has always sold well here.
From my office window I can see probably 50 vehicles in the parking lot, some of which are trucks/vans/SUVs of course. But of the cars, not a single one is American except an aging Lumina whose owner works in an office neighboring mine, and who is always saying to me how now that it is getting near 100K miles, they really ought to get rid of it, because "it's a Chevy and they just don't last that long". She comes from a long-time Chevy family, but after the last two cars she has owned, she says the next one won't be a GM car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That in itself is strange to me. When I was growing up, those who bought VWs and Japanese cars were those deemed too poor to afford Chevrolets, Fords, and Plymouths.
My sister recently bought a Focus as she now has a long commute to her new job. She still has her Ford F-150. Her husband bought a 5-speed Fusion as a sensible counterpart to his 2000 Mercedes-Benz S430.
I don't know about Chevrolets. Big old RWD Caprices and Impalas last a long, long time. Buicks are extremely long-lasting according to my experience.
But, I bet he is upside down in it like many who own those are :sick:
Your remark prompts two thoughts at my end: one is that this must be what people talk about when they say that excessive sales to rental fleets hurt brand equity. These brands wouldn't be associated with poverty if not for the fact that ex-rental cars sell so cheaply, and get snapped up as a result by folks with very limited means, then run into the ground. While GM and Ford have done an admirable job of getting their sales to daily rental fleets down, Chrysler will continue to suffer from this residual effect for another decade it seems - half the Dodge sales (maybe more) are to the rental companies.
The other thought you prompt is that in my area, not only has it flipped to where the people buying domestic are the ones deemed too poor to be able to buy a Japanese or European import, but we are reaching the point where they are also deemed too poor to buy a Korean import (Hyundai, and to some extent Kia). Whether that trend continues will depend not only on the success of the domestics to raise their average transaction price and convince people of the desirability of their products, but also on the success of Hyundai to do the same. They will be in a race for the next few years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Brother & Sister in law just bought their 3rd vehicle from Budget. The last one was a 1996 Ford Explorer and this one is a 2006 Explorer. They save $1000s and get vehicle that has been maintained well. This new one looks factory new is loaded and has less than 20k miles. They put 160k on the last one with no real problems. They were just ready for a newer Explorer. Though I don't think they like the lower mileage of the new one.
PS
They can afford to buy new for cash. They are just tighter than I am... Old school without credit cards or car loans.
But what does the U.S. market say about the new Lancer? It would be interesting to find that out, I don't know what new Mitsubishi Lancer resale values will be. But resale values can change and they do change.
Hyundai's are moving slowly up in resale value for certain models anyway. The new Malibu and CTS are impressive and should hold their values well, if people can see them for what they are now.
And the new Ford's are being built better, too, the Fusion may not be the best-built Ford but it appears to be holding up well, along with the Milan. It is going to be real interesting to watch resale values and the overall success of the domestics in the coming two or three years. The Chinese are coming but not anytime too soon. But they're on their way. A new tariff on imports, like rockylee keeps suggesting? Might that happen? Don't think so. The domestics are going to just have to hold up and offer the same product value (or curb appeal) or more than the imports and keep improving their bodystyling as well, or Chrysler is going to fall, followed by Ford.
GM is really profiting by their Chinese connection with SAIC but are they going to come to market with some viable choices in alternative energy vehicles in time to save theirselves in the U.S. market? GM is sitting the most solidly at this point in time, anyway, to be able to stay in Detroit and produce cars for the American masses.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Nice overview, except for the word "boycott". Definitely agree about "jury-rigged". I think that it was not boycott but mainly "consumer discovery" of better value/performance than "consumer boycott" of American cars. I, and many other Americans, merely discovered non-American branded products that we felt were better than American brands. It is that simple. The idea of boycott never entered my mind. I will give my examples of discovery.
Wife and I had enjoyed a number of V8 pony cars (Firebirds (Trans Am, 400s), Mustang, Barracuda) and by 1977 decided to switch to "economical" but fun sporty type cars because of gas prices/gas lines at times previous. Test drove various American and foreign small 4 cylinder cars and selected a VW Scirroco. The American small cars of the time were poor handling and generally behind in sophistication. The Scirroco was fun, reliable, nice engine/trans, good utility with hatchback but had a problem with rust. This was our first foreign brand car and we never again bought a new American brand.
Ready to replace Scirroco in 1984, and again test drove small sporty 4 cylinder cars both American and foreign. The American cars felt numb in handling compared to foreign and were crude in engine/transmission, interior, etc. Bought a Honda Prelude which was clearly (to us) the best in its class of 4-cyl sporty in terms of fit/finish, style, paint, interior, handling, engine, silky smooth 5-spd, etc. and never regretted. Put on 195K trouble free miles and sold it in 1998.
Most recent new cars have been Acura TLs (3). Have open mind and will want to test drive a CTS when we are ready for next new car in a couple/few years.
Perhaps American brand automakers have started to turn corner with regard to competition with foreign brands.
Is a Pontiac G8 considered as being from America's "own" automaker?
Think about Lee Iacocca's famous "If you can find a better car, buy it!" advert.
And consumers looked him straight in the eye and said "Okay, I will"
That's hardball to me.
I generally don't buy clothes at Wal-Mart, not because I am boycotting anything, but because my experience has been they often seem okay when you buy, but turn out to actually be very poor quality. However, when it is a name brand product of known quality, then buying it at Wal-Mart is a possibility...I have no reason not to buy Hanes underwear there, for example.
A boycott would be "I don't buy anything at Wal-Mart, because they are evil".
So anyone who bought a crap car from say Chrysler in 1982 and then switched to Toyota, and has never bought another Chrysler since---well that smacks of conscious boycott to me.
boycott
to engage in a concerted refusal to have dealings with (as a person, store, or organization) usually to express disapproval or to force acceptance of certain conditions
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/boycott
or see similar defintions at: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/boycott
If taking way about half an industry's market share isn't "concerted", I'm not sure what is.
But yeah, let's not argue on semantics. We both know what we mean.
We are clamping down on illegal farmworkers and as a result, the cost of food is going up. That isn't what we wanted, but it is the result we got.
We are sending our domestic carmakers to bankruptcy court by buying camcords, and as a result, there will no longer be technical jobs in the US in automotive industry.
We shop via internet to save gas and the product comes to our door via a truck using so much fuel that gas has to go up again.
Chasing ethanol raises all food prices and drained our aquifers that took 200 million years to fill. Smart idea?
Our kids all are born with a credit card debt owed to China that is huge. Their employment future is to be a sales associate at walmart or Honda?
When the policeman with the unemployed son is pulling over cars, I want to be the uninformed guy in the american car. What if by buying an american car, the next generation can find work and the engineering college percent of non-US citizen student enrollment stopped climbing past 80% and retreated back towards 75%?
When you say "American" car, do you mean built in America, like BMW does some product, as does Honda or Toyota, or built somewhere else, but wearing a "traditional" American label, like some Fords or GM products?
I know I've asked this before, and the point continues to be that it's a bit more complex than "Buy American." Also, are we to expect the consumer to make buying decisions that are not based on the perception of "best" - so, if I need a car that will go for 100K miles, and I read all the press, auto testers, talk to my friends etc, and they all tell me that Honda makes a product that would serve my needs, then should I buy something that will not do the job, simply because of the label?
I hate to say this but just because your kids might end up being a sales at Walmart or auto dealerships doesn't mean that my kids would. I believe America is still a country that people will get rewarded for hard works.
As for non-US citizen student enrolled in engineering colleges... My question is: Why aren't there more US citizens enrolled in that field?
Just because you don't work hard enough doesn't mean that people who work hard are wrong. :sick:
Building cars has got to be one of the hardest jobs going. If I could get a man or woman off an assembly line and re-train them into an easier and equal job in pay, I don't see anything wrong with that. Better than off-shoring the jobs. I'd rather pay to have them re-trained then to suffer the economic consequences of off-shoring.
As they say "Wall Street doesn't do longterm very well".
Individual or group boycotts require conscious decision and action to do so. A person's purchase of a product based on past experience with a product, or based on examination of attributes and/or reading favorable opinions/reviews on qualities of a product is not a boycott of the other product brands not chosen.
If....IF....an American consumer got burned on an American car in say 1982, and swore never to buy another one, and in fact NEVER DID buy another one---why isn't that a boycott?
It doesn't have to be a group activity nor does it need a label to "be what it is".
I guess what I'm saying is that this consumer behavior in the 1980s was more than merely squeezing tomatos at the supermarket and picking one over the other.
This behavior had a taste of VENGEANCE in it.
I know it's irrational, but I still have this vague sense of distrust about them.
Hmm...maybe my daughter should start claiming to have a degree in "English Engineering"
I'm a systems engineer myself. Designing solutions is almost as difficult as designing the software to go into them. Mostly because the software engineers are WAY too ridiculous with the requirements at times. :P
They are tight-lipped about their motivation for doing so, but I bet it has something to do with the fact that their strike at American Axle isn't working, and GM hasn't been hit where it hurts. So they have struck the plant making the ONE set of models that are up in sales and making profits for GM.
None of us need to do anything to cause the domestics' demise, the union will take care of that for sure, and without needing help from any of us. :sick:
Certainly, in the long term the domestics' smartest move FOR SURE would be to move all of their production out of the United States, and in that case the question "Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?" is a very pertinent one: if all of the manufacturing industry moves offshore anyway, why do we particularly need the automakers? Once that has happened, they won't be providing jobs here, they won't be buying parts here, and in terms of sheer profits just about everyone in the Fortune 500 outranks them.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I did not say or mean to imply that it was or was not difficult or time consuming, lots of things are...but does that make them "engineering". Engineering used to mean applying chemistry and physics to practical problems.
n.
1. The application of scientific and mathematical principles to practical ends such as the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.
The real point that was being made is that if jobs titled "software engineering" are being moved elsewhere, that may have little to do with what the future opportunities may be for those getting degrees in the traditional, more generalized, engineering disciplines...and maybe working for an auto manufacturer???
In the begining there was the "Computer Science" degrees. Where are the degrees in the science of other products...Typewriter Science? Television Science? Refrigerator Science? Automobile Science? Or is it really more of a "computing science" program...meaning it really is a special variety of a degree in mathematics?
Then there was Computer Engineering. Where are the degrees in Refrigerator Engineering, etc. Now there are probably a few specialized programs in Automotive Engineering, but it is not ubiquitous like Computer Engineering is (or was).
Finally we have "Software Engineering". To me, if this is engineering, it really is like a branch of "Industrial Engineering"...which is a title that also seems to be oddly named for something that would probably more accurately be called something like industrial efficiency expert.
None of this is meant to criticise anyone getting such degrees or working in the field or to imply that these jobs are of less value than traditional engineering jobs. I do not think being an "engineer" makes you superior to others. I do understand the motivation, as it seems if you are called an engineer your pay will be better than if you are called a scientist or specialist. This is something I am intimately familiar with having an engineering title, but not doing anything close to what I would consider engineering.
let me try to stay on something resembling the topic....used to be cars were just automotive engineering, right? But these days you have people specializing in interior, drivetrain, chassis engineering, among others I probably don't even know about. As cars evolved, specialties came in.
Now I'm going to shut up about the engineer stuff. I'd rather talk about cars, since the engineer stuff feels too much like work. :P
The reason there are so many foreign students in colleges all over America is that we still have some of the best universities in the world. In particular our engineering and science departments are the very best in the world. While our Universities are still some of the best our primary and high school education is not so foreign students are often times better prepared then American students. You might not like that but it is the truth.
My roommate freshman year of college was from India originally but finished his high school education in Gibraltar under the British education system.
He was a couple of years older then me as he had to work in the Virgin Islands for a while to get money to go to school.
Being older didn't matter though because he was so far ahead compared to the American students. He entered college with 30 transfer credits from his High School in Gibraltar so he started as a sophomore. I entered college with six transfer credits from advanced placement classes I took in High School but even if I had taken every AP class my school offered I couldn't have matched his 30 credits.
I had taken regular calculus in High School but my roommate had already taken Multi-variable Calculus. He graduated in two and a half years with two majors, Computer Science and Business, and a minor in math.
I could go on and on but the simple fact is that grade school education in America is well behind most of the rest of the developed world.
Why more don't get a degree in the field probably has more to do with students not being interested in science and math than it does with a lack of job opportunities. You would think the opportunity to earn a pretty decent paycheck right out of college would motivate more students to consider the field.
If there were really a shortage of jobs for engineers, would the typical starting pay as high as it is? Average starting pay with a BS is $48-60K. My employer is at the low end of the pay scales for engineers, yet starting pay is still $43K and normal progression takes you to about $52K in 3 years.
Okay, I'm not going to wade through all 648 previous messages. However, no, America doesn't need its own automakers.
We can just import all our autos and every other item once produced in America. That includes the corn for ethanol and the list goes on.
However, while we're at it we'll need to import consumers to buy those things since there will be very few Americans left with any money to buy anything.
Obviously you are correct in that American has to produce SOMETHING, but it doesn't have to be cars. Cars are just another commodity like coffee pots, but with mythological value attached, which we all buy into (I certainly do).
Say South Korean students score better on tests than the average American bear. Why is this happening? Are American kids getting distracted too much? If our schools are so top-notch then why is the leader of the industrialized world falling so far behind in its studies?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'd have to disagree regarding getting charged more. Ford, Chyrsler, and GM have been less expensive than Honda and Toyota for quite a while.
In that case, you should also exclude Hyundai (and shortly, Kia) and Nissan since they have sizable amounts of domestic content (not just "$500 assembly value") and US-based engineering and design input. Plus there's Subaru with domestic engine facilities as well as substantial other domestic content.
Maybe not less expensive if one considers trade-in value. One source, such as CR, generally shows that Honda and Toyota "have had" better retained value. Maybe that will change in coming years given some nice products such as CTS, Malibu, Acadia, Enclave and some other Amercan models.
But yes, if you trade cars every 2-3 years, my guess would be Honda and Toyota can be as cheap or cheaper. But then if you are concerned about costs, what're you doing trading cars all the time?
On the other hand, when you trade in an $$$ German luxury car or a Jaguar post-warranty, you're gonna get beat up pretty bad, both in actual dollars and probably in percentage of depreciation.
Aside from Corvette owners, most domestic car owners get beat up pretty bad post-warranty, I would conjecture?
I have never understood that mentality. A new car is pretty certain to cost you much more than repairing the old one. I mean do you really think "I can't afford car repairs, better buy a new car" :confuse: ?
So all things being equal, if you trade in a Toyota right after warranty, you'll probably get a better return than trading in a Big Three car after warranty.
Kinda a Catch-22 there, why would you trade in the toyota over fears of repair bills...after-all I hear they never break
Well, it sometimes looks like this: For many people it comes down to outlay - you shell out $2K in January for the tranny rebuild, then in March you see the coolant leak, and have a bill for $800, then you feel the vibration, and a couple of engine mounts have worn out - $400. So the thought process becomes "Hmmmn.... if I get a new XYZ it will be smooth sailing for 4 years or so.... and I get the new car SMELL!" Add to that the fact that we live in a disposable society, and voila!
What's so special about 2008? All three of my kids are driving cars where a rebuilt engine would cost more than the car is worth...a 1996, 1997, and 2001. Yes it is a risk that the engine could blow, making the car "worthless".
Those who live in fear of car repair bills do have the option to buy an extended warranty. Even on an "unreliable" VW a full coverage zero deductible extended warranty for 7-10 years and 100K mi would have cost me $1500 to $2000. This would seem to be a lot more cost effective than trading cars all the time.