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Now, I understand the early E300's were good cars, but the '95 was an embarrassment, and I could not bring myself to buy another MB after that debacle.
I am glad your experience was better.
Wheel bearing failure at 50,000 miles
Air conditioning failure at 60 K, (dashboard removal required).
Air conditioning fan failure 1 month later (dashboard removal required)
Oil leak of multiple gaskets starting at 70K
Rotted wiring harness.
Replaced points at 80K
Paint worn away from sun and and frequent washing 70K miles.
Starter motor failure 80K
Water pump failure 80K (I consider the last two routine maintenance)
Brake Rotor failure EVERY 25,000 miles, from new.
Ignition key lock up at 75,000 and 110,000 miles.
Air conditioning failed again at 110,000 miles (but I had them change the fan at the same time.)
ALL engine gaskets leaking by 125,000 miles. (I had taken the car to the dealer for the first leaks, but they were all leaking again by the 125K marker).
Sorry, MB went thru a terrible time.
By the way, I see diesel MB's in Europe with 100K's of miles, and My sister has a 98 diesel T in Madrid that has been indestructible. (But still has only 130K kilometers, so she doesn't drive it a lot).
But I bought an Asian Hyundai instead. Not enough miles yet to say it's a good car. But there are lots of disenfranchised German car owners out there.
exactly what I said, isn't it? Infiniti at the time almost getting 'mainstream' with products like the G20 and I35.
There is something that Hyundai should take from this as well- manufacturers that sacrifice that prestige in order to sell those less expensive vehicles will not be taken seriously in the luxury market - regardless of how good the product might be.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
agreed - perhaps why the ES continues to be built in Japan? How well a mfgr. can disguise its entry level models has a lot to do with how solid that brand's lux perceptions are. Agree that Infiniti had done a pretty poor job at that thru about 2005 and as a result that Infinti was 'second tier' much like Acura is today - even though both brands have many other parts of the whole lux thing hyandled quite nicely.
The CC is suffering from the same fate that the Phaeton did, it's a Volkswagen, a "people's car", yet it's not priced like a VW should be to 99% of car buyers. That's also why the Genesis sedan hasn't taken the Luxury class by storm in terms of sales (nor will the Equus). People don't think Hyundai or VW for $35K+ vehicles.
another poster that has some sort of anti-Hyundai agenda? or simply somebody that understands what a 'luxury' car can and cannot be????
Honda has been doing that for years....
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
What you have said many times is, you have held out Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus as examples for Hyundai to follow in building its luxury market approach. Now you are agreeing that Infiniti's brand prestige is "debatable." Acura? We've talked about their lack of success in the luxury market since the Legend exited many years ago. Lexus? Well, they have their own problems right now, don't they? And Hyundai has surpassed them in brand value, according to BusinessWeek/Interbrand.
How you can continue to beat Hyundai up for choosing a different path than the J3 is beyond me, given the very mixed success of the J3 in the luxury market. Of the 3 of them, only Lexus has had a modicum of long-term success. Certainly there is room for improvement, for a different strategy.
Note however that poster did say the Genesis sedan is in the "Luxury class." So it's clear he recognizes what a "luxury car can and cannot be", and that the Genesis is indeed a luxury car.
that is exactly what the LS did - wonder why not Hyundai. You don't suppose that it could be in large part because of the badge - nah, didn't think so. Everybody, who is anybody (according to you) KNOWS that Hyundai is the next best thing to sex. Guess they haven't had those revelations yet?
Even versus this stronger competition, the Genesis is selling at roughly 60% the volume of the first-generation LS. And that is with all the "baggage" of the past and lack of a luxury brand, which you bring up with every post. Not to mention they are doing it in one of the worst car sales markets in recent decades.
Do you think that by putting a "Genesis" badge on the Genesis sedan, Hyundai would have done a lot better in the past 18 months? I am doubtful of that.
As a long term investment (in the lux brand) yes, but not in the short term. Any sales gains would be negated by the set-up costs for the dealers, marketing, etc.
Imagine if Yota never setup Lexus. They would have sold a heck of alot of LSs at a nice profit, but would have lost out on 20 years of gaining market share with Lexus. Sales they would have never had without the Lexus brand.
If Hyundai wants to seriously compete in the Lux market they have to setup a new dealer network and brand. IMO its not quite the right time to do so, however, once the economy turns around its something they should consider. The empty Saturn, Pontiac, and Hummer dealers will probably still be vacant
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
That was the past.. as the G20/I30/I35 no longer exist. Today's Infiniti doesn't do rebadges anymore with the sole exception, QX56 which is being replaced with a newer QX56 that is not Nissan USA based. Today's entry level Infiniti, the G37 doesn't have a direct Nissan equivalent! Except maybe the 370Z sports car.
BTW, the 2010 ES350 today is still based on the V6 Camry, very similar appearances, and they both have the same nose heavy understeering wrong (front)wheel drive when driven hard. They are not fun cars to drive hard, like Infiniti's G37 is.
maybe the intent of Ulsan is actually do what Lexus did - but in reverse. While startup costs for Lexus (and Acura, I think) were minimal simply because the dealers built the buildings (and paid the frsanchise fees) - it is conceiveable, I suppose, that Hyundai, knowing that it doesn't have that kind of following, is trying instead to let the car (not the brandname) itself generate some dealer interest.
What I don't understand is how an upscale sedan, that sells a comparatively miniscule 1500 cars a month in that segment - is going to get any dealers excited enough to invest that kind of money even if those costs are minimized by renovating some of those out of business dealerships currently out there.
Unfortunately bad timing on Hyundai's part especially for something as ambitious as the Genesis is. It would really be a shame to see another Phaeton type failure simply because Hyundai and/or its dealers can't afford to market the car properly :sick:
nobody from what I've seen is denying any of this - or that Infiniti has lately been doing a much better job in luxland than what they had been doing.
And no the ES (as well as most other Lexus products) is certainly not going to be favorite among enthusiasts, but they do sell a lot of them largely because the folks that are spending that $40k+ don't THINK they are buying a Camry. Rightly or wrongly, it illustrates the American carbuyer's penchant for brandnames and brand reputations, and it is also to Lexus' credit that they have been able to maintain the product differentiation.
Selling the Genesis sedan under a label other than Hyundai would not have accomplished Hyundai's main objective.
Also, do you realize you have just voided your entire argument that Hyundai should have started a new brand to sell the Genesis?
What I don't understand is how an upscale sedan, that sells a comparatively miniscule 1500 cars a month in that segment - is going to get any dealers excited enough to invest that kind of money even if those costs are minimized by renovating some of those out of business dealerships currently out there.
So, you don't understand why Hyundai would take your advice and start another brand and dealership network before trying to sell the Genesis in the US. You don't understand the rationale behind your own position!
Is it clear to you now why Hyundai went the path it did, and decided to sell the Genesis under the Hyundai brand rather than start up a new brand and dealer network? And why Hyundai may want to wait awhile, until it has more than one luxury car, to take those steps?
and you might be right - but would also suggest to you that making a limited volume higher end vehicle is not going to do that nearly as well as better Elantras/Santa Fes/Sonatas eventually will.
The plain truth is that when the name Hyundai is perceived as an asset that is when the brand doesn't need any 'uplifting' AND there may be some room in the luxury market for a Hyundai mfgd product.
Hyundai is doing that too. Have you checked out the 2011 Sonata yet, or seen the pics and specs on the next-gen Elantra?
Making better FWD family cars and mainstream SUVs will help elevate the brand image, but will NOT tell the world that Hyundai is capable of making a luxury car. The Genesis helps do both.
Why does an automaker's image need to be perfect, i.e. in no further need of uplifting, to start a foray into the luxury market?
And I'll note again... nearly 20,000 new owners a year is "room".
Driven audi's and bmws and don't find any pluses to those brands over the azera.
Real wood, roomy, and a smooth ride do not make a luxury car. The Azera is just a large affordable car. A possible alternative for the price to a Avalon. It's also in it's last year.
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Also keep in mind that Toyota priced the LS very aggressively w/ the original MSRP being $35K - which enabled the LS to not only undercut the S Class and 7 Series, but the E Class and 5 Series as well (the LS was closer to the price of a loaded C Class than a loaded E Class).
While Toyota has refused to release nos. or comment, most auto analysts thought that Toyota was taking a loss on the LS, or at the very least, breaking even.
Hyundai, otoh, is making a profit off of the US sales of the Genesis.
"I think Hyundai should wait until it has more than 1-2 vehicles to put into a new brand. For example, an entry-level car below the Genesis (the Azera replacement maybe), a sports coupe based on the Genesis V6 coupe, the Genesis sedan, the Equus, and at least one SUV (Veracruz replacement) would be a good start. It would also be nice I think if it could be timed to coincide with the debut of the Gen 2 Genesis sedan, which would further distance Genesis-from-Hyundai from the new luxury brand. So this could take 2-3 years... enough time to see how the Equus fares and develop the other vehicles."
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Hyundai currently is planning a lux brand to debut w/ the launch of the next-gen Genesis sedan and coupe (the coupe will go upmarket).
Also in the works is a smaller RWD sedan to compete in the D Class segment w/ the 3 Series, C Class, G37 and IS, w/ at least one CUV model to follow.
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Correct, the Azera is a large, upscale FWD sedan a la the Avalon, Maxima, Taurus, Impala and Cadenza - which is why the Azera would remain a Hyundai whenever Hyundai launches a premium marque.
Funny, considering your hesitation in comparing sales of the Genesis to that of the GS and M.
I too believe the original LS was sold under cost initially - the way the cost of the car ballooned as the car gained a following (but barely changed) says something, in my eyes - while at the same time the prices of the big Germans barely moved, especially after 1992. I agree H has to be making a profit off the Genesis.
They should start with 4 models, and continue to add new cars. maybe have 8 models within 2-3 years of the initial launch? by 2020?
Brand Genesis 2020 lineup
1. Elantra based hybrid
2. Sonata based ES350 fighter(sedan, coupe, & vert)
3. iFlow based 4 door sports sedan (euro spec 3 series fighter)
4. Veracruz based RX fighter
5. Genesis(will need a new name)
6. Equus (short wheel and long wheel)
and then optionally
7. Genesis based v8 sedan coupe
8. v8 SUV based on Borrego
If hyundai can launch the brand with those line ups, it will do better than both acura/infiniti. it will instantly become #2 asian luxury brand IMO. this luxury brand will have more mass appeal because it will still undercut the competition by significant margin. and people love new kid on the block.
and in year 2020 everyone should be ready for Hyundai's luxury brand.
Time will tell... It's good to have more choices. However at this time most Acuras are just reworked Honda platforms, MDX, RDX, TL, etc (most of their buyers prob. don't even realize) and they don't even have a V8 or rear drive. I give Hyundai credit for having both. Too bad you can't get the V8 in the Genesis coupe...
nonsense - I would be willing to bet that they haven't even come close to recover those millions they spent on just Super Bowl ads - not on the sale of a mere 15000 cars or so - and after that we can talk about the developmennt costs of any truly new design that normally takes years to recover if they ever do - or FTM that Hyundai's gross margin on a car with such a high feature content has to be less than on those true lux cars that are priced higher. Toyota's losses were in fact minimized simply because they had folks paying for the privilege of selling it, whether it covered the development costs or not, we'll probably never know for sure.
The Genesis may or may not be helping people forget about Hyundai's past indiscretions but a moneymaker it isn't!
yep, because they are not comparable cars - 2 of them are luxury cars the other is simply an upscale sedan that should sell many more copies.
It is not so much what you (or I) think Hyundai is already doing as much as it is what the rest of the car buying public think they are doing. If you are going to sit there and tell me that you think the general car buyer thinks of Hyundai as an equal to a Toyota (despite their recent problems) or a Honda or even a Nissan , I'll tell you that you are fooling yourself. Whether the products are actually equal or not is once again - NOT THE POINT. As has been said in this forum often, perceptions lag reality, and Hyundai's, I submit, are still stuck in their past somewhere.
Did I say that? Ever? So why pretend that I did? :surprise:
Actually, in at least one respect--brand value--Hyundai is BETTER than Nissan, and better than Toyota's luxury brand, Lexus. Hyundai is also better than Nissan in other ways, e.g. CR has Hyundai rated higher overall than Nissan, and one point behind Toyota (and that was before the recall debacles of Toyota). Does every car buyer notice these things? Of course not. You certainly don't seem to notice or care about them, as you are still stuck in 1986 when the Excel was Hyundai's most popular car. Some buyers, however, such as the 25,000 or so who have bought a Genesis in the US, have bothered to look at current reality.
absolutely utter bogus statement. hyundai is now another toyota, honda, nissan to general public. it is no longer inferior brand to them. maybe you think they are inferior, but normal people don't.
general car buyers aren't stupid. all they have to do is type 'hyundai sonata' to know hyundai isn't fooling around. many people already know korean cars are here to stay. hyundai/kia outsold nissan/infiniti last month. in canada, hyundai has been outselling honda for a year now. sonata is #3 in retail sales 2 months in a row without any help from upcoming coupe/turbo/hybrid.
I'm a creative director, and i work with many great brands at Leo Burnett. back then, it used to take forever make a brand because information didn't travel fast enough. today? faster than ever. HTC came out of nowhere and becoming a strong force in gadget industry. do you know how many gadget fans are anticipating Evo 4g? samsung was perennial tier 2, but they are a dominant force.
stop dreaming about hyundai excel and stop underestimating general car buying crowd. it's 2010. People do research before they buy cars. only granny's who doesn't have email account don't do any research.
it's a very different world we live in.
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Give me a break - the ES? lol!
Pretty much every auto publication has compared the Genesis to other E segment vehicles, most notably, the GS.
Gee - RWD, optional V8 and suspension tuning that isn't soft and floaty.
Yeah, the Genesis is a little bit larger than the GS, but then again, so is the G37 in comparison to the 3 Series and the G37 is seen primarily as a 3 Series competitor.
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Uhh, the original Tribeca was aesthetically-challenged, and when Subaru gave it a face-lift, they made it look like the Pacifica.
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The Cadenza currently exists in SKorea, and yes, it is upscale.
The Impala is/was upscale until GM let it rot (the next-gen Impala, reportedly, will be a match for the Taurus).
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Yeah, I'd take your word over that of Hyundai execs... lol!
First off, development costs are factored in, and the bulk of it will be paid off from sales in the Korean market.
2nd, let's say Hyundai moved 16K Genesis sedans in 2009 and made a modest profit of $4k (being real conservative here) on each Genesis sold - that's stil a cool $64 million.
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Maybe not across the board, but the new Hyundai models like the Sonata and Tucson already seem to be seen on par, if not better than the Nissan equivalents (the Sonata being the no.1 researched model and outselling the Altima).
The Impala might have been relatively upscale until the Caprice came around...mid 1965...then it was relegated to midrange status. I don't see it being higher than that since.