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Your perception is stuck in the past, not Hyundai.
YEAH!!!! :shades:
Agreed.
Going once, going twice...
So, if Ford's Sync is mass market, would an iPad tie-in be a luxury item?
Guess who's syncing iPad stuff in their newest ride?
Automakers Grapple with New-Age Dilemma: Software or Hardware? (AutoObserver)
Of course not. This discussion is going on 3 years old, and I'd be lost without it!
A lot has changed in the past 3 years. It's now self evident there is room in the luxury market for Hyundai, but the question was a good one back in '07. Steve, your question was almost prophetic. Nobody had seen a Genesis, or even heard of Equus back then.
I wish we could ask the question "Is there room in the luxury market for Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler?". I wish they would follow Hyundai's model. I would rather spend my duckies on an American designed and manufactured luxury car with the price, quality, and warranty of the Genesis. Yes, I said it. "Follow the Hyundai model".
I agree with Bobad if only this was an American company...perhaps we are begining to see that direction...the direction Hyundai took in 1999 to focus on quality and not quanity.
so this product differentiation thing that Ford needs to sell its (rebadged) Lincolns as luxury, is only something that Ford must do - but Hyundai magically exempt from such a condition.
I guess that must be because in the land of H fandom, Hyundai has that much of a better rep and quality perception than mere Ford?
Of course, Hyundai could already be in the luxury market with Genesis - sold by that name and at proper Genesis dealers - they will eventually understand that - you, OTH, not so sure.
Ford has already made their luxury "bed" wrt branding strategy, now they have to sleep in it. They made that decision a long time ago. But they seem to be confused on it, with the release of the upmarket Taurus, which competes directly with some Lincoln models. A wise decision? Time will tell.
Hyundai has taken a different direction for their initial foray into the luxury market. Some positive results so far, but again time will tell as to ultimately how successful that strategy will be.
well we do agree on one thing
Your 'positive' results are also subjective - in the land of $35-40K upscale sedans, those results are quite unremarkable.
You have already stated that that the Genesis is a luxury car. So how can Hyundai not be in the luxury market?? Oh, I know--it still has that H on the trunk! Silly me!
The Genesis is a luxury car
Hyundai is not a luxury brand
never said that, quite to the contrary actually. Hyundai is undoubtably improving perception wise faster than anyone I think anticipated and the whole Genesis line certainly aids in all that. That said, however, this does not change my opinion that ANY product made by ANY 'mainstream' manufacturer will never find a spot amongst those luxury brands and products. Just like you just got done telling me - Chevy does not make luxury cars, Cadillac does - little to do with the products but a whole lot to do with brand perceptions and reputations. Why should Hyundai be any different?
Don't believe that it is possible to be both a mainstream and a luxury brand at the same time so -
Hyundai has got 2 choices IMO:
1) establish Genesis as a brand, and sell them at dedicated high end dealerships
OR,
2) discontinue 99% of everything they sell (rebranding it as Kia perhaps) and then upgrade the remaining products and/or Hyundai dealerships more befitting what would become a luxury brand.
Choice 1 would likely be easier and would also follow those precedents that have been established in that regard.
I own one and honestly its not. IMHO it really is just a little more upscale than an Avalon or Maxima. Forget about it being the M/GS/E/5 for 2/3s the price. It isn't. The suspension tuning, the refinement of the engine (V8 is a bit better than V6 in that department), etc are not up to luxury standards. The only thing that I believe is, is the interior. The qualilty of materials and attention to detail is impressive at this price point.
I bought one because its a lot of car for the money, the interior, and the fact that after 2 Avalons I thought I wanted something different. Is it a bad car? No, but the suspension most definately needs some work (either firm it up completely like a BMW or soften completely like a Lexus). The compromise setup as is causes too much "unsettled" behavior.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
I bought one because its a lot of car for the money, the interior, and the fact that after 2 Avalons I thought I wanted something different. Is it a bad car? No, but the suspension most definately needs some work (either firm it up completely like a BMW or soften completely like a Lexus). The compromise setup as is causes too much "unsettled" behavior.
I will defer to your observations as you are an owner. I guess it all comes down to how one defines "luxury"; Webster's has this as one of the definitions:
a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity
By that definition, anything more extravagant than an Aveo, Rio or Accent might very well be defined as a luxury vehicle.
I guess the jury is out on the Equus until it is available here in the US.
The E350 is a luxury car.
Mercedes makes buses, trucks, vans, taxis and automobiles.
It does. Today's cars are in general so good that it takes more than leather, wood and a nice stereo to make a luxury car. I have mentioned this before, but a current Civic or Corolla has more features available than many Caddys, Lincolns and Mercedes of the 70s and 80s. Does that make them luxury cars? No, they are well equipped cars.
I guess the jury is out on the Equus until it is available here in the US.
I haven't seen one in person yet. I would assume based on the Genesis the interior will be first rate. It will be interesting to see what the press has to say about the driving experience though.
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Mercedes makes buses, trucks, vans, taxis and automobiles.
Ah, but isn't Daimler the commercial brand? MB is the division that makes automobiles.
I suppose there can be luxury manufacturers (Lexus, MB, BMW), luxury brands (Cadillac, Acura, Volvo) and luxury models (Genesis, Avalon, LaCrosse).
Of course, we could discuss and debate the concept of "near luxury" versus "luxury", could we not? That might get us another 6000+ posts. :P
Question - if a loaded Camry V6 XLE is really not all that different than an ES350 in terms of content, then what else is there to differentiate the two?
Answer - sales experience, service after the sale, warranty, resale value and the all important "snob factor"
Can I interest you in vibrating leather memory seats in your luxury Mercedes-Benz Sprinter? :shades:
Wouldn't driving on any grooved interstate highway give me the same effect without having to spend the money? (the vibrating part, that is).
Although it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to offer the DIY parking option on the Sprinter ...
Than GM? LOL. That's a good one.
Than GM? LOL. That's a good one.
Well, GM still has 4 brands to the 2 of Hyundai.
If anything, it's VW in Europe that is starting to have the same problems GM has had in the past 20-30 years. VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat (not to mention Porsche and Lamborghini) ... too much model and price overlap, too much production capacity, not enough customers. Seat may be the odd brand out.
Do you own a V6 or V8? The V8 is one of Ward's Ten Best Engines. That's in the world. Not too shabby.
So ... if Hyundai entered into an agreement to have a, say, VW Phaeton, built by Bentley, but labeled a Hyundai Ghost. Luxury car, sure. Brand?
Maybe we don't want to go down this bumpy road.
we'd have a damn fine luxurious car but a 'luxury' car no - not with that Hyundai label and sold at those Hyundai dealers. The Equus will be a litmus test of sorts for this theory of brand significance - just like it was for the Phaeton. - and we all know how that worked out
Infiniti failed to show you their Q45 in the ads. They wanted you to go out and see it, drive it and, I presume, fall in love. Well, no one went.
VW had two fold problems with the Phaeton. The first was marketing the car "half way". They never inundated the media with news of the car. There are still many people who never knew it existed. Terrible decision in that regard. The second was even more serious: The 2004 Phaeton was fraught with electrical gremlins when new, and required a different way to think about your car and what it does, but for very ambitious reasons. The Phaeton had two large, expensive glass mat batteries, and that was to supply power for all the slick options, to allow preheating your car in cold weather, to run a sophisticated suspension system. But the car would not stop energy leaking if parked in a locked garage without the doors locked. And there was some battery relay controller that would mismanage the diversion of power, and people with new Phaetons were driving with the electrical gremlins arising from very low power in their batteries caused not by leaving the lights on, but just by not locking their car in the garage. And VW took months to figure out what the problem was, sending the owners of $80-100K autos back onto the street with a car that would repeat the problem within a month.
In addition, the TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) was finicky, and the lights were always warning something was wrong.
By 2005 all those glitches were fixed. But, the die was cast.
Sales of the Phaeton were best in 2004, but all the early adopters were punished severely. VW had no answer. The project was a well intentioned ambitious one, and the car was not thrown on the market without a lot of thought, but SOMEHOW Toyota was able to bring the Lexus to market, and people were able to enjoy bullet proof reliability from the first. In 1989 reliability was the holy grail, and Lexus delivered, and then the people that are " in style" purchasers piled on. Infiniti never hit critical mass.
VW threw away that initial chance to impress the world.
What is clear is that there are always certain people who like new things, and they are going to try the Hyundai. And enough of them are.
I agree with on poster above who describes that suspension of the Hyundai as being not up to the Luxury std. Not a BMW stiff cornering monster, not Lexus smooth. It was a mistake, and should be fixed fast. I am constantly annoyed by the jitter of the ride, and others on this forum are, too. But the new Sonata has the world by the tail. And Hyundai kept selling cars even in a weak market, so they have the world's ear, and they have time to bring the Genesis up to snuff, if they care.
So I would answer there is always room in the market for new Luxury, but it has to be done right. The problems fixed right away. The marketing aimed at those people to whom name matters. They need to rehabilitate the Hyundai name and, guess what, I think the new Sonata has done so as much as the Genesis.
My new Hyundai Genesis (3500 miles) is a great car for the money, but the drive is not the special "wow" drive of a luxury car. And I had two problems with it in the first 1500 miles.
By the way, I did have two problems in the first 1500 miles ownership of a '98 Lexus GS 400. Auto lights stopped working, and the steering wheel postion motor started screaming. But then I went 100,000 miles without anything else going wrong.
The ride of my '98 GS400 was better than that of my 2010 V6 Genesis.
There's room, all right, but the question is will Hyundai be invited to stay in the luxury club. They're presuming to belong. Right now I am not disliking the car, but I would vote that the Genesis doesn't yet belong in the club. I just don't get the "magic" feeling of quality when driving it, as I did with my '95 E320 (No reliability!), my wife's past GS400, or my wife's present G35 Infiniti.
Not at all. What I have said time and time again is that the Genesis tries too hard to be both BMW and Lexus at the same time. The suspension really is a mess. Its bouncy (especially in the rear) but the front is firm. This results in all kinds of bad ride characteristics. If it was BMW firm I probably wouldn't have bought it, however at first drive (on decent roads) it appears to ride well. It was obviously firmer than my Avalon, but in such a way that it was still good. After driving it for a little over 11K and one year I can tell you it got worse. I can barely even sip on a cup of coffee on my ride to work through some construction zones. I have experimented with multiple tire pressures, even using less pressure in the rear as suggested on another forum, nothing helps.
There has been all kinds of talk about the early 09s (which mine is) having different suspension components than the later 09 and 10s. Who knows, it certainly won't help me.
Do you own a V6 or V8? The V8 is one of Ward's Ten Best Engines
I own the V6. I did say in my post that the V8 is better. The V6 clatters terribly on startup (as noted in other forums). Mine is so bad that even my GF said "what is that?" Also on my car if you accelerate past 80/82 I get a drone out of the engine that is not there at 75. Its a very unrefined feeling, that I really don't expect in a 36K car, especially one that claims to be a "luxury" car. Hyundai could learn a lot by taking a Nissan VQ or a Toyota 2GR apart and studying a bit.
Having said all that I really love the interior and the Lexicon stereo!
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You're right of course, but what I meant was, Ford, GM, or Chrysler doesn't have anything like the Genesis at that price.
Hyundai is not a luxury brand
True!
Some of us buy cars.
Some of us buy brands.
People have to decide for themselves which is more important.
I contend that Lexus' 'head start' was largely due to the fact that Toyota had a much better rep at the time than Nissan did - the Q45 was a worthy competitor to the LS but at least in part what the LS had going for it was that it was made by Toyota something they could brag on back in 1990.
This is the same situation, in my view, that Hyundai will have to address if they are ever going to find any room in the luxury market. They must first establish that luxury brandname and dealer to provide the consumer with that product differentiation they demand and they must also get it to the point that being manufactured by Hyundai is generally viewed as an asset.
It always goes back to that, doesn't it?
I bet most people don't care about pedigree as long as the car is nice, and the comfort, reliability, warranty, and service are good.
I think you mistakenly believe most luxury brand buyers pay a premium largely because of image. I think people pay extra for luxury brands because they believe they are a quick, easy way to ensure good reliability and service. They are often disappointed, but afraid to go off the reservation and do diligent research on their own.
Better in what way? Guess it depends on who you ask.
If you ask the dealers, they would probably point to the free espresso and WiFi, plus loaner cars.
If you ask the consumers, "better" might be defined as a higher probability of negotiating a skinny deal without all the games dealers can play.
Do you think luxury brand dealers get grinders?
I guess what I'm saying is that there has to be some perceived value on the part of the consumer for a luxury brand, whether it's Lexus for automobiles, Coach for leather products or Prada for women's shoes. Some of that value may be related to the product, while some of it may be the buying experience or environment.
I think only one of the Hyundai dealers in metro Denver positions themselves as something other than a discount brand - of course, they've just built a nice shiny new showroom. I think this will be the biggest hurdle to getting the public to perceive Hyundai as a luxury brand - getting the dealers to stop the screamer ads.
As noted in prior posts, that may be the impetus for Hyundai to create a separate luxury brand for the Azera, Genesis and Equus, plus maybe the Veracruz. But, that can be very expensive to execute. How many hundreds of millions of dollars do you think Honda, Nissan and Toyota invested to create the Acura, Infiniti and Lexus brands and dealerships and marketing strategies?
Mazda was going to do the same thing, but chose not to at the last minute, so the 929 and Millenia were badged as Mazdas, not something else.
Ford had the Premier Auto Group (PAG), which included Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Land Rover and (for a short time) Lincoln & Mercury (!). However, that was more of a business organization since each of the brands retained their own identity.
Well, if that is your expectation, a smooth ride that allows you to sip a cup of hot coffee while driving through a construction zone, I can see how you don't like the ride of the Genesis. Personally, I'd have both hands on the wheel in that kind of situation.
Have you tried the 2010 to see if the ride is closer to the feel you prefer?
Its not my expectation, its just an example of the jittery, unsettled ride the Genesis delivers. I am not the first, nor the last to mention this. I do happen to enjoy my coffee on my ride in to the office, I just now know not to drink it during that portion of my ride :P
Have you tried the 2010 to see if the ride is closer to the feel you prefer?
No I haven't as of yet. Some people have noticed subtle differences, if anything else its firmer. That may help with some of the jitters, especially in the rear.
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In the so called luxury market, I'd tell you the exact opposite - pedigree can be almost a primary consideration and things like reliability and warranty are almost inconsequential and certainly secondary to many of those things an enthusiast might value highly. Cars are not refrigerators to folks like that, and nor are they refrigerators to most luxury buyers.
Not nearly as much as you think - not when the franchisees are paying for the dealerships and also PAYING (franchise fees) to those same mfgrs for the mere privilege of selling the new products - as happend with Lexus and Acura at the time - although I'm not so sure about Infiniti. Had Hyundai been (or even today) been in the same position (brand reputation) as Acura and Lexus was back then think we would be seeing those badly needed Genesis dealers.
It is also important to mention that in nearly a year and almost 30,000 miles of hard use the Genesis has yet to experience any problems that require service, save for an airbag control unit recall at 26,000 miles. And the great-looking interior is showing none of the signs of wear that tend to crop up after a year of demanding use. Despite its rough suspension and a few niggling issues, the Genesis is an amazing first-stab at the luxury car class by Hyundai and one that the company hopes to build on with the upcoming full-size Equus.
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/12_month_car_reviews/0912_2009_hyundai_gene- sis_4_6_december_update/index.html
Looks like reliability is important to them, also they have no problem seeing the Genesis as a member of the "luxury car class" despite its price and Hyundai branding. Maybe because they view a luxury car not by its badge, but by what it is and does?
There's a long-term wrapup in the June issue, which is also complimentary, but not yet available online.
We know how you choose a car, and obviously a few others as well. The question is, how many? What percentage of car buyers simply choose a badge, and what percentage shop for the best all around car for the money?
One quote was spot-on:
Less ambivalent are those who have seen the car, who seem to agree it "looks good in person, like a mini S-Class," and is "far more impressive ... than in video or print."
I get frustrated by people forming opinions of cars on paper. You are short-changing yourself by living in a paper world. It simply doesn't translate to reality. Sit in the car, drive it, smell it, feel it, and get a sense of the 3D space and styling. You just can't look at charts, dates, prices, and flat 2D pictures and render a worthwhile opinion. Drive the car!
Have you had a test drive? Even a walkaround?
How many Equus are actually on NA soil? I can't say I completely believe some of the raves.
I can't believe any of the raves, unless they're by someone who has actually seen
one in person. As you say, there are far too few to account for all the raves. Some people are just looking at them on paper an doing a massive amount of assuming.
I have never in my life publicly criticized styling I haven't seen in person, or driving experience of a car I haven't driven. But that's just me.
Reminds me of the folks that say "I don't care to see the Grand Canyon because I've seen 100's of pictures and movies of it". When they actually go see it, they're stunned by how different it is in 3D. Not saying everyone would like the Equus more,,, some would certainly like it less in person. But at least they would not be short-changing themselves.