Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

backy

It might be intended for the Equus vs. the Genesis?

bobad

I assumed for the Equus, but it's built on the same block as the Tau V8. One would think Hyundai would at least consider dropping a few into a special edition of the Genesis. It should move along briskly.

stever

They're junk cars, after all.

lol, you're not misreading words here from what your subconscious is telling you I hope.

iluvmysephia1

negative.

davidc1

I rode in two different Equus during my business trip to Asia couple of months back. I was very comfortable in the back seat. I remember it was more roomy and comfortable than the 750 Li I owned and the ride was kinda like a Lexus LS, which I now prefer in my middle age. I think this would be a real bargain if I can get one around $55k.

wolverinejoe80

and FIFA president is driving one!! looked very impressive on TV.

backy

So says C/D in their August issue, in the summary of their 40k mile long-term test report. C/D has decided to keep their 2009 Genesis 4.6 to 100k miles--which is very unusual for a test-fleet car if not unprecedented.

They also wonder in their summary if buyers will see Hyundai as a luxury brand in the same way as Lexus. So C/D at least has no problem differentiating a luxury car from a luxury brand.

dean3927

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http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/29/autos/auto_leader_forecasts.fortune/index.htm

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fintail

Of course, betting the farm on current trends can be risky:



:P

backy

Exactly. Another example (other than disco): predictions from a couple of years ago that Hyundai's foray into the luxury market with the Genesis would be a total failure, because "no one's ever done that before" and because of memories of Hyundai's past.

:P

toye

Good spin on Fintail's love of Hyundai!!! :shades: :shades:

fintail

Failure is relative, as is success. I'd say the Genesis is doing about as well as anyone had hoped...but I couldn't call it a success or a failure just yet.

I have to wonder where the sales are coming from...I know E class sales are way up, 5er sales will be likewise, but the Genesis too continues to sell (although apparently unknown in coupe vs sedan)...are Genesis sales really conquests from the Germans as some want to believe, or perhaps lesser H owners upgrading, conquests from the Japanese, or?

tjc78

perhaps lesser H owners upgrading, conquests from the Japanese, or?

That is my vote. I know people on here don't agree with me, but I stand ground saying that many Genesis owners are former Maxima, Avalon, 300 etc. I am sure you have a few TL, ES, & G drivers defecting, but there are a vast majority of people that shop by price point. That alone put the Genesis in competition with the above rather than 5s and Es.

One thing I would like a stat on is how many Gen owners are first time Hyundai owners. I would be willing to bet quite a few.

backy

I'd say the Genesis is doing about as well as anyone had hoped...

Call me weird, but in my book that is the definition of a "success". A "failure" would be the opposite: that the Genesis did not meet expectations.

There is a lot of consternation here about where Genesis sales are coming from. I wonder why. I don't see the same concern over who, for example, are grabbing up MBs, BMWs, Infinitis, and Lexii at lease rates that most anyone with a good job can afford. Are these conquests from other luxury brands, or maybe just folks moving up from a Honda or Nissan or Toyota--or Ford or Chevy for that matter? Where's the figures on that? Or, do you care? It doesn't seem like you do.

fintail

I think those listed cars are the main conquests, along with some Sonata and Azera trade ins. Of course the propagandists would have us believing people were lining up to trade in their Porsches and S63s for one, but I don't know if sales figures support the supposed slaughter. The Euro competition is not losing sales...and I believe they have some strong brand loyalty. I think the primary customer base is trading up rather than economizing.

You're a H first timer, right? I will admit its the best way H could introduce people to the brand.

fintail

I dunno...if I perform well enough at work, completing my assumed tasks, but not making anyone notice, I am not going to receive a big bonus or promotion. But if I consistently go above and beyond and make the bigshots look, I stand a better chance of a reward. Is success simply finishing a task? I wonder if H has leaked any predicted sales volumes, or best vs worst case scenarios from before the car was introduced.

I'm willing to wager it's a bigger jump to a leased 5er or E than to a loaded Genesis. The Genesis is supposed to compete with those and not lesser cars, right? I'm not here to look for figures. We heard a lot of exciting stories about highline conquests, but the highlines too are gaining sales - in a down economy - and they are brands which historically have good owner loyalty. Maybe if you cared, you'd go and buy a Genesis

backy

As was discussed here before, Hyundai's data from the first few months of Genesis sales showed 90% of Genesis buyers being new to Hyundai, and 40% of buyers trading cars like Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche. When 90% are coming from outside the brand, someone is losing sales.

http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=97562

The Genesis is a good way to introduce people to the brand. But so are the Sonata, Tucson, Elantra, Gen coupe... all of which allow Hyundai to "grab" someone earlier in life (and lower in income) than brands like MB, BMW, Lexus, and Porsche.

backy

Is success simply finishing a task?

Earlier, you said the Genesis has done as well as anyone had hoped. That goes far beyond "finishing a task." We might expect to sell, say, 12,000 a year, and that is deemed acceptable should we accomplish it--we "make quota" in sales terms. We hope to sell many more, say, 15,000 a year or more.

Maybe you could research your question on sales predictions and let us know what you find? Google is waiting for you eagerly.

I'm not here to look for figures.

Oh, OK. Never mind then.

BTW, Hyundai's owner loyalty is pretty darn good also... #1 according to KBB:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2010/03/15/469235.html

Maybe if you cared about this discussion at all, other than to take shots at something you have no personal experience with, you would at least DRIVE a Genesis.

fintail

Data collected by who, for who? MB and BMW aren't losing sales, that's the cold harsh reality...so who is? Who knows what these cars are? Does trading in a worn out third car sitting in the garage count? If I trade in an '82 924 or an '85 190E, am I a conquest?

The highlines have existed as an aspirational object to attain once one has enough income, and have done very well at that. Reeling people in earlier is a strategy which appears good...but isn't proven.

fintail

If I do my job to the requirements expected of me, that's as good as any outside observer could hope. Acceptable, not jaw dropping.

I am not the one who has claimed that the Genesis is a highline conquest machine, it is not my line of work to find sales data. I do notice the higher priced competition, the ones (5er, E) the fanclub will claim are true competition, are extremely successful right now. It makes me wonder where the customers are really coming from. Is it taking shots, or is being the devil's advocate really evil?

Why drive one, and waste a salesman's time and false hopes, or obtain automotive debt? I will just say this...the rear tires on my E55 are pretty much worn out now due to my driving style, and the fronts aren't far behind. I haven't seen anything hinting the Genesis is made for that treatment :shades:

backy

If I do my job to the requirements expected of me, that's as good as any outside observer could hope.

You have very, very low hopes, I see. My hopes are higher than what I would reasonably expect to happen, what I would consider "acceptable."

The GS and M, for two, aren't doing all that great sales-wise. The M is up from its pitiful sales from last year, but still pretty low volume. Neither are the TL and RL doing well. Maybe the Genesis is taking sales from the likes of them.

It's not wasting a salesperson's time if you are honest with him/her, explain your situation, i.e. that you aren't looking to buy a car right now, but you've read a lot about the Genesis and are curious how it compares to the E Class, and ask if he/she would mind if you take it for a test drive. They can always say "no" if they think it's a waste of their time. You might try going in during the middle of the week vs. a Saturday so the dealership isn't as busy. Worth a try... if you have any thoughts of being objective about this discussion. Otherwise, I guess you can just keep taking shots at non-existent hood ornaments and such.

backy

If I trade in an '82 924 or an '85 190E, am I a conquest?

Yes, because you could have bought a new Porsche or MB. Instead you bought something else. Porsche or MB lost you as a customer. That's a conquest, as surely as if you traded in something like a 2007 5 Series or E Class.

smarty666

Your right about the test drive stuff. If you want to go out and test drive a car but not interested in buying, most reputable stealerships will be more than happy I've found on Mon-Thurs to go out with you for a test drive so you can see what the car is like and those are the days of the week I have gone to do just that.

Forget about Fri and Sat, that is there busiest time of the week, considering of the 6 days they are open, those two are the most in which people have off from work and go in. I try to avoid stealerships on Sat's, whether I'm buying, looking, or just in for service mainly b/c they are just a chaotic scene with people.

tjc78

You're a H first timer, right? I will admit its the best way H could introduce people to the brand.

Yes I am. I looked at the Azera back in 06 but at that time I preferred the Avalon.

fintail

Hope for the best, expect the worst...it helps one not be disappointed.

The GS and M are also different from the 5er and E...the latter pair costing 5 figures more. The RL hasn't done well for years, and the TL...styling might be doing it in. So the Genesis is made to compare with the Japanese and not so much the Germans? I can buy that, you know. It's what I am thinking too.

I have no doubt I'd be able to test drive it...by lying if anything...it's amazing what car dealers will offer you when you pull up in a shiny MB :shades: Maybe if I have some time to kill sometime, I'll do that, just for you.

I didn't know this discussion had to be completely "objective"...a person is free to ignore my posts if they are objectionable. Cars are a very subjective topic. And regarding the hood ornaments...the fact that they do exist says enough for me.

fintail

So if I have a decrepit 82 RR Spirit in my garage, and I trade it in on a C-class, Rolls lost a sale? I don't know if owners of the older cars are able or willing to buy their new counterparts.

j2j

"To which I say he's right if you can accept the competition he is defining. Genesis 's competition, IMO, is not $50 or $60k Japanese or German sedans, it is those other $40k upscale sedans. The Avalons, the Maxs, the TLs and the like. On that basis then the Gen is not such a resounding success is it? You really want to look at market share when you put the Gen sedan in the class where the majority are sold? Probably not, it would blow Krafcik's entire argument."

*******

LOL!

So what will the Azera (esp. the next-gen Azera) compete against, if not the Avalons, Maximas, Tauruses (as well as the upcoming Kia Cadenza)?

According to your premise - it would be the Camry, Altima, Fusion, etc. - w/ the Sonata competing against the likes of the Corolla.

Now, do some people shop based on price - sure, but things like FWD vs RWD, interior room, etc. almost always come into consideration.

Remember, for the first couple of years, the MSRP on the Lexus LS400 was $35K - that made it closer in price to a fully-loaded C Class rather than a fully loaded E Class (much less the S Class); but according to 'ol captain, the LS400 should be compared to compact, entry level luxury sedans rather than full-size, flagship sedans like the S Class and 7 Series.

What's next - comparing sales of the Equus to the CC, instead of the Phaeton and other full-size F segment sedans?

j2j

"there you go again - a Cooper is NOT a BMW, but what it is - in terms of performance, reliability, and resale value is something that your precious Hyundai products can only dream of."
*******

And not so long ago, the Cooper was none of those things (btw, Hyundai beats Mini in reliability, and the Genesis coupe, w/ the updated powerplants, would beat the Cooper S in terms of performance more so than it already does).

j2j

Genesis owners seem to be a mix of those who own/have owned luxury makes and those moving up from the Maximas of the world, as well as those moving up from Sonatas, Accords, etc. (as well those moving from sports cars - Mustang GT to a more sedate/practical ride).

On a Genesis board, quite a few owners traded in BMW (esp. the 5er).

One person just traded in a 2010 535i for a 4.6 Genesis since his wife didn't like the BMW.

Another person (only driver) just added a 2011 535i to his garage (joining his Genesis).

backy

So if I have a decrepit 82 RR Spirit in my garage, and I trade it in on a C-class, Rolls lost a sale?

The sales numbers are:

MB: 1 sale
RR: 0 sales

Looks like MB gained a sale and RR didn't get any. These aren't complex ideas here. Although you are trying your darndest to make it complex... obfuscation, I think it's called.

backy

Don't take a Genesis (or maybe the Equus, when it's available) for a drive for me. Do it for yourself. Think of the great posts you can make here after you actually drive the car, e.g. "I drove the Genesis and it SUCKS! It's so far removed from an E Class it's laughable!" etc. etc.

But do the Hyundai sales rep a favor--don't lie about your reason for taking a test drive. As you and I have said before, it's not fair to waste their time with a test drive if you're not in the market for a car--unless they know you're not in the market and decide to give you the keys anyway.

Re hood ornaments... when you find an US-spec Equus with a hood ornament, let us know. Maybe provide the URL to the photo. Until then, it doesn't exist.

fintail

Nothing complex about it. What logic is it that an owner of a car is going to replace it with the current equivalent, or that he even bought it new at all? If I buy a 5 year old E, keep it for 4 years, and then buy a Genesis, who is really losing what?

fintail

To be fair, there are other cars which give me more curiosity than the Gen or Equus, but if I have a load of free time and happen to be in the area of the dealer...who knows what could happen. I wonder if they let you drive it alone...as I'll need to research some handling characteristics

I haven't seen a US spec Equus without the ornament either.

backy

MB, and every other automaker except Hyundai, is losing a sale. MB loses the most, because the Genesis buyer will no doubt tell his/her friends/family/co-workers why he/she dumped the E Class for the Hyundai. Which encourages others to think, "Hmm, I wasn't thinking of the Genesis, but I should check it out when it's time for my next car. Maybe MB isn't that great after all."

I agree--nothing complex about it. The automaker that gets the sale wins. All others lose. The incumbent loses the most.

backy

I haven't seen a US spec Equus without the ornament either.

You've seen photos of the US spec Equus without the hood ornament--right here in this discussion. Or maybe you didn't notice those photos posted not long ago?

captain2

So what will the Azera (esp. the next-gen Azera) compete against, if not the Avalons, Maximas, Tauruses (as well as the upcoming Kia Cadenza)
not a bad question- the Azera now a step child of sorts, and never much of a competitotr to the J3 flagships - hell do they even sell it anymore - given that Hyundai already has it supposed flagship?
My point, which I guess you missed, was that anything can be deemed a success (or a failure) by simply defining what it is you wish to compare it to. Krafcik wants to judge the success of the Gen Sedan apparently by comparing its volume to the volumes of much pricier true lux vehicles. Well, of course anything that sells for $35k will usually outsell something that costs $50k (or more). Compare Gen volumes to those other similarily priced and sized near lux cars I mentioned, and on that basis the 'success' of the Genesis is debatable IMO, just like the Azera that preceded it.
IMO it all boils down to - Hyundai has unquestionably demonstrated the ability to build some pretty nice cars - BUT has the consumer really truly shown any real acceptance for a $30k Hyundai?

backy

Well, of course anything that sells for $35k will usually outsell something that costs $50k (or more).

Why does the 5 Series outsell the Genesis then? (Just one example.)

And what happened to the position offered by some here, that a luxury brand (like BMW or Lexus or MB or Infiniti) is worth more to luxury car buyers, and they are willing to pay more for cars with a luxury badge than for cars without one? If that is true, than a measly $10-15k shouldn't be enough to keep a luxury buyer from a car with a luxury badge, instead of buying a Hyundai Genesis. Or is there in fact no value to a luxury badge??

I guess you don't think 3600 $30k+ sales a month is a sign the public has accepted the idea of a $30k Hyundai. I know some automakers who would kill for those kinds of sales for $30k+ vehicles.

fintail

But the original car wasn't bought new, how can all of this be true? Really now. So if I trade in an old heap on a new car, the maker of the older car is considered the loser in a conquest? It seems pretty wild. Your supposition there also implies the observers of the purchase think the purchaser is informed and rational.

fintail

I haven't seen anything of a definite confirmed production spec US model Equus, no. And there's plenty of weirdo bland KDM styling to admire with or without the ridiculous hood ornament. Maybe an unnamed "European design house" worked on that one too...

captain2

Why does the 5 Series outsell the Genesis then?
because the 5s are a standard of sorts by which others are judged, and those folks that spend the extra money for them understand what level vehicle they are 'investing' in. There is an almost undefineable level of sophistication and singularity of purpose that is attached to cars like this (and to a lesser extent perhaps the MB Es) that is not approached even by the J3 branded luxos never mind the pseudo Korean ones. And that is largely why those German sedans can sell the way they do - not something generally understood in H fandom - not everything is a function of a pricetag.
The Equus will seemingly be Hyundai's first car with the luxury price to go with all that bling - they, however, will have to approach that Germanic kind of engineering sophistication(and performance) as well as get some exclusivety attached to the brand for it to succeed. They may be able to pull off half of that equation - or neither

backy

So if I trade in an old heap on a new car, the maker of the older car is considered the loser in a conquest? It seems pretty wild.

What is so wild about Carmaker A not getting a sale (i.e. losing) and Carmaker B getting a sale (i.e. winning)? As you said, it's not complicated.

As for the purchaser being informed and rational... if they buy the Hyundai, they are obviously very informed, and rational.

backy

The Equus will seemingly be Hyundai's first car with the luxury price to go with all that bling...

Odd for you to say that. The Equus will cost five figures less than comparable cars. So I can envision the same comments about "lower priced cars will sell more" when the Equus goes on sale.

captain2

Odd for you to say that. The Equus will cost five figures less than comparable cars. So I can envision the same comments about "lower priced cars will sell more" when the Equus goes on sale.
not odd for you however - what is comparable to you a variable definition often justified by its cheaper price. Sort of like saying the Equus is 90% of what the S/7/LS are and justifying however short it comes up because it's $20k cheaper. No understanding what that other 10% actually is or is worth, just simple dollars and cents. There is more to it than just 'badge'

bobad

The highlines have existed as an aspirational object to attain once one has enough income, and have done very well at thatThe highlines have existed as an aspirational object to attain once one has enough income, and have done very well at that.

That's what every car is, not just highlines. The Civic owner would like to be able to afford an Accord some day, the Accord would like to be able to step up to a TL some day, the TL owner would love to step up to... never mind.

bobad

Why drive one, and waste a salesman's time and false hopes, or obtain automotive debt?

Aha! You ARE afraid to drive a Genesis and get hooked! :P

bobad

You've seen photos of the US spec Equus without the hood ornament--right here in this discussion. Or maybe you didn't notice those photos posted not long ago?

Reality doesn't matter. Once a hood ornament, always a hood ornament. In some minds, the Genesis and Equus are nothing more than a Pony or Excel.

fintail

It's not an apples to apples comparison. An older car, especially when purchased at an already aged state, is not directly comparable to a new replacement. Does every old car get passed along and replaced by something similar?

I don't know what could be rational about paying brand new prices for any car, with how good cars are these days. Not to mention different driving styles. I recently read H has decided not to even try to sell the Equus in Europe, because of how poorly Lexus has fared there. That might explain who the conquests are here, and who the competition really is in NA.

fintail

IMO the average buyer of an S/7/A8/LS isn't terribly concerned with low 5 figure differences on the price of a rapidly depreciating object...if he is, he shouldn't be buying in that category to begin with.

fintail

What is the real price difference between Civic and Accord, or even Accord and TL? In these days of sweet leases and creative low rate financing, it's not a huge stretch for most to buy the larger car. Smaller cars are often bought not because of price alone.

fintail

Ha, yeah, thats it.

Actually, the smart way would be to buy one a couple years old in pristine condition,and use the savings for mods. Or, wait for newer improved engines...H is bumping up some HP ratings, I think.