Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

backy

An older car, especially when purchased at an already aged state, is not directly comparable to a new replacement.

And who said it was? But another good attempt at obfuscation. Few used cars from several years ago are directly comparable to brand new ones, with the improvements in car technology. And this is not about the age-old debate of the wisdom of buying new vs. "pre-owned." You are straying again from the point: when someone buys a Genesis instead of the brand they owned previously, it's a win for Hyundai and a loss for every other contender. If you can't see that simple reality, let's agree to disagree and move on.

fintail

Sorry, I just can't see the logic there. The price the current owner paid for the car he is replacing - along with cars actually being shopped by the owner - is more relevant to the new car than the new replacement value of the traded car. If I trade in a Rolls I paid 15K for on a Genesis, the 300K replacement Rolls is not losing a sale, as I could never afford said car to begin with. It's not a conquest from Rolls. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, indeed.

j2j

My point, which I guess you missed, was that anything can be deemed a success (or a failure) by simply defining what it is you wish to compare it to. Krafcik wants to judge the success of the Gen Sedan apparently by comparing its volume to the volumes of much pricier true lux vehicles. Well, of course anything that sells for $35k will usually outsell something that costs $50k (or more). Compare Gen volumes to those other similarily priced and sized near lux cars I mentioned, and on that basis the 'success' of the Genesis is debatable IMO, just like the Azera that preceded it.

IMO it all boils down to - Hyundai has unquestionably demonstrated the ability to build some pretty nice cars - BUT has the consumer really truly shown any real acceptance for a $30k Hyundai?

*****

No, I got your point; you just didn't get mine (which, btw, refuted your point).

Hyundai has to sell the Genesis at a lower pricepoint b/c the G-sedan (1) is a new entrant in the mid-size luxury segment and (2) isn't sold under a luxury nameplate w/ the separate dealership/showroom.

Nonetheless, the Genesis is still closer in price to the other mid-size luxury offerings (esp. those by Lexus and Infiniti) than the LS400 was to the full size luxury sedans when it debuted.

The MSRP on the Genesis is already creeping up (now, almost $44K for a fully loaded 4.6 Genesis) and will continue to go up as Hyundai adds content (Hyundai had to decontent the Genesis for the US market; the KDM Genesis has quite a bit more things, such as an adjustable air suspension); w/ the 2G Genesis to go more upscale and being likely sold under a luxury nameplate - will get a price closer to its Japanese rivals.

Like I said, the Genesis should be compared to others in its segment, and not compared based on price (if that was the case, the LS400 would have been a failure since w/ its original MSRP of $35K, its sales should have been compared against the sales of the C Class and 3 Series).

Likewise, the Azera, despite being closer in price to a fully loaded Camry, should be compared to more expensive Avalon - since they are in the same segment.

The next-gen Azera should sell a lot better; but the real one to look out for will be the Kia cousin, the Cadenza/K7, which will give sales of the Maxima a run for the $$.

Considering that the majority of the 17-18K who bought the Genesis sedan last year ended up w/ a Genesis w/ an MSRP of $40K or more, I'd say the market has shown a decent amount of acceptance for a $40K Hyundai (more so than those willing to fork over $45-55K for an equivalent Lexus or Infiniti).

****
And simply being les expensive does not = into more sales; if that was the case, the cheaper Lexus GS and Infiniti M should be outselling the E Class and 5 Series, instead of being almost irrelevant.

Along the same lines, Mitsu and Suzuki should be outselling Hyundai, as well as Toyota and Honda.

lemko

With or without the hood ornament, the Equus still looks awful. Per an unnamed "European design house" I suppose it was an eastern European design house that used to do all those ZILs and Chaikas for the Soviets.

lemko

Wow, a "discount luxury car." Sam Walton would be proud! I guess that's like buying a knockoff Chanel dress at Ross. How prestigious!

bobad

Like I said, the Genesis should be compared to others in its segment, and not compared based on price.

I understand your point, but disagree. I think it's wise to pick a number you are willing to spend on a car. Then you pick the class of car that fits your needs. Then you compare cars to determine what you get for your money. That's what makes the Genesis so appealing.

tenpin288

.Wow, a "discount luxury car." Sam Walton would be proud! I guess that's like buying a knockoff Chanel dress at Ross. How prestigious!

You might want to take a look at this article then..

Changing definition of luxury buying

I think this actually bodes very well for Hyundai in the future.

fintail

I guess part of Russia is technically in Europe...that might explain it.

The unnamed "European design house" is the one who submitted a weirdo proposal for the Genesis which is pretty much identical to the finished product (which from many angles strongly apes the E60 5-series), just with a Subaru-esque front end. Of course, no mention of who made this design.

fintail

Yet traditional high end car brand sales are stronger than ever :confuse:

captain2

Likewise, the Azera, despite being closer in price to a fully loaded Camry, should be compared to more expensive Avalon - since they are in the same segment.
and the Azera a remarkable achievement in value just like the Gen sedan in many ways - and they couldn't get it to compete with things like the Av and/or Max volumewise despite several thousand $ of price advantage, and further had to decontent it (GLS version) to get it down into the mid 20s. And the last I heard they were selling a few hundred a month. Exactly waht else does the fanboy need to know about the lack of public acceptance of 'expensive' Hyundai products. Plainly the products can justify the prices, but the Azera (and even the Gen's) inability to compete well in that $30-$40k upscale sedan arena are both good examples of that lack of acceptance.
So now I guess flushed with these 'failures' and armed with a VPs faulty self serving logic now they want to try a level higher? Won't happen, at least as long as Hyundai has the pedestrian name it has, its pedestrian product line AND its pedestrian dealers.

backy

If you want "prestige", fintail knows someone who's interested in selling a Rolls Royce for only $15,000. Drive down the street in that baby, and it's instant prestige for you!

backy

...(and even the Gen's) inability to compete well in that $30-$40k upscale sedan arena...

However, that's not the arena that the Genesis competes in, i.e. FWD V6 family sedans--albeit very nice FWD V6 family sedans.

backy

I have to flip the order on that, because if a car doesn't suit my needs, it doesn't matter what it costs. So first I narrow down the search to the type of vehicle I am looking for, then I look for the car that meets my needs at the lowest price.

backy

If I trade in a Rolls I paid 15K for on a Genesis, the 300K replacement Rolls is not losing a sale, as I could never afford said car to begin with.

How many times does this happen in the real world--that someone trades in a Rolls worth $15k on a $40k sedan such as the Genesis?

In this extremely rare case, Rolls didn't lose a sale because Rolls was never considered for the replacement car. But Rolls lost in a sense (as I tried to explain earlier in the MB example), as this Rolls owner now drives a new Hyundai, and will be talking with his/her family, friends, and co-workers about why he/she bought a Hyundai instead of another used Rolls, or some other car e.g. a Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, MB, etc.--new or used. Hyundai gains a sale and a new customer--everyone else the buyer could have realistically considered as an option lost.

fintail

It's just an hypothetical situation. How many trade-ins are traded by the original owner for a like product? And how many of the frothed at by the media via PR propaganda highline trade-ins during the Genesis intro were similar? All brand ownership changes are not equal. I don't see used cars as conquests either, if someone buys a new Genesis instead of a used something else, the competition isn't harmed.

The Rolls owner also traded a troublesome money pit for a much more reliable and modern vehicle, if not arguably one severely lacking in intangibles. Or in the case of this Rolls and likely some of the other highline trades, it was a second or third car...in the case of my imaginary Rolls, a Sunday driver was traded away, the previous daily driver Camcordata was given to a spoiled college kid, and now theres more room in the garage. Friends and co-workers won't be asking why MB and BMW weren't good enough...especially if they look at stats and see how those brands are increasing sales in the US.

No matter all of this hypothetical fun, one thing remains...we don't know who is really being conquered, as the claimed big name competition are gaining sales.

backy

I don't see used cars as conquests either, if someone buys a new Genesis instead of a used something else, the competition isn't harmed.

You have a narrow view of things. Suppose someone buys a new Hyundai instead of a used Lexus. First, the dealer trying to sell the used Lexus is harmed. They didn't make a sale. Second, Lexus didn't keep (or gain) a customer. Sure, it was a used Lexus, but there won't be any chance for any dealer to get income from maintenance of that used Lexus. Also, the buyer will talk about how he/she bought a Hyundai instead of a Lexus... that isn't harmful to Lexus in any way you can fathom? How about the odds that the next car this imaginary person will buy will be a Lexus? I'd say those odds just went down.

One thing we do know... if the Genesis weren't around, there would be about 2000 sales a month of $30-45K cars that others would get. But they aren't. Their loss, Hyundai's gain.

dean3927

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http://blogs.motortrend.com/6530866/editorial/the-new-gm-the-next-hyundai-kia/in- dex.html

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fintail

Nobody tracks conquests in terms of used sales. All of that is purely hypothetical, just like the example I used that drew ire. Who says the used buyer would have work done at a dealer? Or if if those he told didn't care, or were told negative aspects? Who says the experience with the H would be positive enough to turn someone off of Lexus? If they were cross shopping both, they are obviously after certain ride characteristics.

How many of those 2000 monthly sales are coupes that are well under 30K? One thing we do actually know , the highline cars that H is supposedly competing with and stealing sales from are not actually seeing sales declines. That's what this all comes down to.

backy

All of that is purely hypothetical, just like the example I used that drew ire. Who says the used buyer would have work done at a dealer? Or if if those he told didn't care, or were told negative aspects? Who says the experience with the H would be positive enough to turn someone off of Lexus?

You have your trading-a-$15k-Rolls Royce example, which might happen at most once or twice a year in the real world; I have my Lexus example, which I think is much more realistic than the Rolls Royce example. It's really a stretch to think that someone who just went from a Lexus to a Hyundai wouldn't have positive things to say about the Hyundai vs. the Lexus. Or do you think someone who did that will tell friends/family/co-workers, "I bought the Hyundai instead of a Lexus because, frankly, the Hyundai is a piece of crap and I didn't like it nearly as well as the Lexus, plus the Lexus dealership is a lot nicer. But the Hyundai has that 100k mile powertrain warranty--that made all the difference!" Somehow I don't think that is how the discussion would go.

As for the coupes, notice I said 2000 sales a month, not the total Genesis sales. So I already allowed for coupe sales. If you have more accurate numbers on coupe sales, please let us know.

lemko

I'd think somebody who had a Lexus and then showed up in a Hyundai, regardless of the luxury pretentions of the car, suffered some kind of serious financial setback. Then I'd wonder why he even bothered to buy a new car due to his dire money situation.He'd have been better off keeping the paid off Lexus versus having any kind of a car payment.

backy

I am not surprised you would think that. Do you still wear your pastel "Miami Vice" outfits ca. 1985 also?

fintail

Back in the hype days, we had stories of Porsches being traded for Genesis...those were no doubt exactly like my Rolls hypothesis. That "positive" thing could simply be price, knowing the average Lexus customer and their love of cars and driving, I don't know what else they would follow.

How did you account for coupe sales when you have no numbers? It's like claiming the Genesis is conquering the E and 5er when those are both as strong as ever.

lemko

we had stories of Porsches being traded for Genesis

Yeah, probably rusted-out 914s.

backy

It's called a "swag"--kinda like the assumption you made that all reports of Porsches being traded for the Genesis are exactly like your Rolls story. Although I have some basis in fact for my swag, e.g. looking at the sales of the sedan in the months immediately before the release of the coupe, then looking at Genesis combined sales in the months immediately after the coupe release (a time when Hyundai said coupe sales were "smoking"), then subtracting the bump in sales from the coupe from current Genesis combined sales. Feel free to tell us your logical rationale as to why all reports of Porsches being traded for the Genesis are exactly like your Rolls story.

captain2

However, that's not the arena that the Genesis competes in, i.e. FWD V6 family sedans--albeit very nice FWD V6 family sedans
No, that's the arena (the near lux sedans from the mainstream mfrgrs.) that you (and Mr. Krafcik) don't like to think it is competing in. I, on the other hand look, at a general vehicle type and price range in this case the $35-40k well optioned sedan and further would tell you that most buyers in the category are not enthusiasts and wouldn't be able to tell FWD from RWD even after driving them. So just like tjc78 on on own forum here or that other poster who cross shopped the Avalon in his case, this is where the majority of Gen are coming from, not usually from the J3 lux brands, and definitely not from those buyers that can appreciate the German sedan - and tolerate its cost.
to suggest that somebody like fintail (a typical MB/BMW owner (and attitude) IMO) would ever consider a Hyundai product almost regardless of its quality is unrealistic. Hell, folks like that still haven't gotten over the LS of 20 years ago and only now have begrudingly given that car its due. Folks like that are the luxury market whether you or Mr. Krafcik wants to admit it, and it is also those folks that are not so easily 'bought' by a cheap price. They simply want what they think is the best, and are certainly willing to pay for it - things that would exclude the Gen sedan and a majority of Hyundai buyers in any case

PS before you get off on some nasty "Hyundai basher' tirade you need to understand that this same exclusion also applies to Chevy and Ford buyers, Toyota, Nissan, and Honda buyers etc etc. - all brands that can't make a luxury car much in the same manner that Hyundai can't.

captain2

Hyundia/Kia will have a helluva time overtaking anybody in the US as long as they ignore that bastion of Americana aka the pick up truck. It is easy to make misleading CAFE claims when you don't make them

Kirstie_H

Huh. I know someone who did something similar - got rid of his BMW for a Hyundai 3 years ago. He just got tired of paying the costs associated with the bimmer. The Sonata will be paid off in a few months, he'll drive it for another year (still under warranty), then give it to his daughter when she turns 16. His income has increased, rather than decreased, as have his other expenses, over the past 5 years.

He just made what he considered to be a wise financial and long-term view automotive move. Perhaps people do think he suffered a financial setback, but the opinion of people who wouldn't know enough about him to assume that don't matter to him.

Likewise, although my financial situation hasn't changed in awhile, I'll likely soon be switching from a more prestigious to less prestigious vehicle. My priorities and driving habits have changed, that's all.

fintail

I haven't seen those numbers, sorry. I also do have to wonder why H won't release coupe sales as their own. Just as I wonder who is being the victim of a "conquest" when this supposed German-fighter isn't hurting sales of said competition.

Who in their right mind would trade in a sports car that isn't a problem child on a boring sedan that isn't quite luxury and isn't quite sport? But if you had a spare problem car sitting around and wanted to try something new...why not. My rationale? Lack of evidence and logic.

captain2

then give it to his daughter when she turns 16
bet your friend didn't ask her. A $20k Korean sedan is going to be about the last thing that she wants to be seen in - the old BMW would have been fine - or get her what seemingly every teenager (male or female) wants, the 6000 lb. big arss pick up truck/SUV - sounds like he can afford to spoil her.
My next door neighbor did about the same - going out and getting his daughter a 2 year old VW bug - a perfectly reasonable (and nice) first car IMO - only to discover that what she really really wants is Daddy's $40k+ quad cab F150. Have a feeling those arrangements are already in process and that I may have to start worrying about keeping off the roads.

Kirstie_H

This will be his 5th teen driver. I've had a few myself. History tells us both that what she wants doesn't and shouldn't enter the equation. A reasonably safe, fairly economical, no-flash car that doesn't even want to go fast is perfect - and best of all, it's paid off, so the damage as a result of the nearly inevitable new-driver bumps and scrapes won't be a big deal.

captain2

only had 2 myself - my daughter's first a $2000.00 Corolla my son's a $2000.00 Probe - both served their purpose. Nonetheless you wouldn't believe what you can see at the HS student lot!

fintail

Anyone who buys their teenager a huge truck should be forced to drive a base model Accent sedan (automatic) for the rest of their life :shades:

backy

PS before you get off on some nasty "Hyundai basher' tirade....

I think you are confusing me with someone else.

I don't care what car fintail or you or anyone else decides to buy. What I ask myself is, why do folks who have never sat in or in some cases (Equus) even seen a car in person carry on so much about how the cars can't compete with others? Not a very reasoned approach, IMO. If you just can't accept the idea of Hyundai selling luxury cars, fine. But don't assume you speak for "the majority" of other car buyers. You speak for yourself. The general public has awakened to the fact that Hyundai makes excellent cars, and about 3500 per month are spending $30k+ of their hard-earned money on Hyundais. Some people will never buy a Hyundai. Some people will never buy a Lexus, or a Mercedes. That doesn't mean that Lexus and MB can't be successful in the luxury market. They don't have to appeal to everyone. Neither does Hyundai.

FYI... Toyota and Nissan DO make luxury cars, and sell them under those brand names. And Chevy makes cars that sell for over $100,000. So what is the big deal about Hyundai selling cars that will top out around $60k?

backy

I also do have to wonder why H won't release coupe sales as their own.

Maybe they decided to follow BMW's lead? It would be nice to know how many Gen coupes vs. sedans are sold... and how many 3 Series coupes vs. sedans, etc.

Since you don't know how many sales the Genesis is taking away from competitors, by brand and car, how can you say that the Genesis isn't hurting sales of specific competitors, e.g. German automakers?

Who in their right mind would trade in a sports car that isn't a problem child on a boring sedan that isn't quite luxury and isn't quite sport?

I take that to mean, why would someone trade a Porsche in on a Genesis. Here's one thought on that: Waaaaa! Waaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!! Oops! We could really use a back seat, honey!

Lack of evidence and logic.

Yep--you got that right!

fintail

What does a 3er sedan and coupe share vs a Genesis coupe and sedan? I'm willing to wager much more for the former than the latter.

The sales of the German competition are not falling, even as the Genesis (in random form) continues to sell by the thousands. That pretty much says it isn't hurting the Germans.

Nobody in their right mind would buy a Porsche and realize long after the fact that it isn't a family hauler. And the average new Porsche buyer IMO isn't usually going to buy something like a Genesis.

I checked some Euro Hyundai sites today, and apparently the Genesis isn't being sold on the continent at all - at least not yet. That might be telling...the highline leaders in Europe (where the highline Japanese are a million times more invisible than here) aren't being challenged. Although the Grandeur is offered (I hesitate to call it "sold" as IIRC H shifted a dozen units in the UK a few years ago) for nearly the price of a basic E or 5er. Good luck with that one.

backy

What does a 3er sedan and coupe share vs a Genesis coupe and sedan?

Do a little research into the cars you are discussing (it's fun!) and you'll find the Genesis coupe and sedan share the basic chassis (but coupe's is shortened) and V6 engine (but coupe gets different tuning). The bodies are totally different of course. And the coupe offers a 2.0T while the sedan offers the Tau V8. As for the 3 Series, they share the chassis and some of the same engines, with totally different bodies (coupe is longer and narrower than the sedan, and of course different greenhouse, doors, etc.). The coupe even has a different model designation (E92) than the sedan (E90). And there's differences in engine choices between coupe and sedan. So why doesn't BMW break out coupe and sedan sales? Oh, sorry--you don't care about what other automakers do. It's only an issue for you when Hyundai does it.

The sales of the German competition are not falling, even as the Genesis (in random form) continues to sell by the thousands. That pretty much says it isn't hurting the Germans.

I had to read that one twice to make sure I read it right. So, you are saying that the only way an automaker can be hurt by competition is if the competition causes the automaker's sales to decrease, say, year over year? So if sales are up, say, 2% over the year before, then competition isn't hurting this automaker? Do you understand the concept of market share? If one automaker's sales are increasing in a given market faster than those of another automaker, then that first automaker is said to be taking market share from the second automaker. That is considered a negative thing in the automotive world (and in the general marketplace), for the company losing market share.

Nobody in their right mind would buy a Porsche and realize long after the fact that it isn't a family hauler.

OK, I'm sorry I didn't make it crystal clear that the baby came AFTER the Porsche was purchased. (Buying a sports car is one of the best fertility enhancers, dontcha know.) But I thought you'd realize that.

fintail

I see that a Genesis coupe and sedan "share a chassis", have "different bodies" and "different engines" - and much different price points, competitors, and levels of equipment than different 3er variants. Why won't H break down the figures? Why does BMW have to? BMW isn't the one trying to prove anything here, BMW has proven all it needs to ages ago, and continues to put up.

Market share? Oh really? A consensus can't even be reached on the players in the "market" for these cars to begin with. I'm the one that had to read that a couple times to make sure I saw that. And thanks, but you don't have to explain basic concepts like you are some kind of esteemed professor lecturing to a simp, when you are really trying to escape the fact that the cars the fanboys dream the Genesis is competing with aren't really competing with it in any significant way at all. H refusing to offer the Genesis (and soon Equus) in more demanding markets speaks volumes.

No, I didn't "realize that" about the Porsche, nor did I realize that a Porsche owner or his other half would seek something like a Genesis as his family hauler.

backy

Why won't H break down the figures? Why does BMW have to?

I rest my case.

And thanks, but you don't have to explain basic concepts...

Since you don't seem to understand the basic concepts of the marketplace, e.g. how a company can be impacted sales-wise by a competitor even if the company's sales are increasing, I felt I did need to explain those concepts. But since you refuse to recognize that the Genesis is a competitor in the luxury market, which includes the German marques, it's like tossing pebbles into an ocean. Why should Hyundai have to offer all of its models in every continent, less than two years into its attack on the WW luxury market? It will soon offer the Genesis coupe in Europe. Does MB offer every model in its lineup in the US? No, I don't think so. But that's no problem for you. (See your statement above--what's OK for some is not OK for Hyundai.)

No, I didn't "realize that" about the Porsche, nor did I realize that a Porsche owner or his other half would seek something like a Genesis as his family hauler.

Less outlandish than someone trading an old Rolls on a Genesis. Maybe go back and read the quote I posted a couple of days ago from the Hyundai VP re the luxury makes being traded on the Genesis--that list includes Porsche.

fintail

Of course you rest, you can't answer :shades:

Market share is nothing more than a distraction here - the participants in said market segment can't even be agreed upon. Seeing as H is to this point refusing to compete via the Genesis with the world leaders on their home continent - and has stated it won't even bother selling the Equus there - tells me that H itself doesn't really think this vehicle competes on a large scale in the E/5er realm - just as Lexus has failed to compete there. And with those cars seeing increasing sales even though the Genesis continues to sell in NA, tells me it's not the E/5er driver who is jumping ship either.

Selling a car in NA and Korea is not an "attack on the WW luxury market". When these "luxury" cars are sold in every market alongside the leaders, then there will be some kind of attack. Far from it at the moment. Regarding MB not selling every model here - every maker doesn't sell all models in NA - but is ot making claims about attacking the world market segment for said models. If H wants to "attack the WW luxury market", it DOES have to offer these models on every continent!

I see nothing less credible about dumping an old money pit on a new car than trading a modern sports car for a Genesis. I also see no reason why I should embrace the claims of some sycophant suit...no doubt the same who made a claim about a "European design house" crafting that Genesis prototype which is startlingly like the finished product save for the ugly front end. I remember back during cash for clunkers, there were wild claims about Astons and Bentleys being scrapped...turned out to be false. Or maybe a pumpkin orange '79 924 got traded...

bobad

The sales of the German competition are not falling, even as the Genesis (in random form) continues to sell by the thousands. That pretty much says it isn't hurting the Germans

Yet, if Genesis weren't in the market, their sales would have been even higher.

Sales are what they are. Every Genesis sale is a loss to someone. You can't just look at isolated cases (trading in a Bentley on a Genesis) and call it ridiculous, because they add up. When you look at a list of thousands of trade-ins, you will have a few fliers. Heck, I bet there are a couple of Harleys, bass boats, and maybe a girl friend in there.

Hyundai has the numbers, and Krafcik mentioned them. He said that a certain percentage (Maybe 40% IIRC???) of trade-ins came from old luxury marque's. While I'm sure the numbers didn't badly hurt the Old Europe luxury makers, I bet they would like to have not lost those sales!

fintail

Who is claiming those Genesis sales would have been E or 5er sales, and not Maxima/TL/M etc sales? It seems there are some competitors in similar price points who aren't faring so well right now. Could that be perhaps because of the Gen?

The big name competition is seeing sales increases, which doesn't point to the Genesis stealing sales. If it was such a threat to these cars, it would be offered on their home turf...or maybe not, as that's where H has the nerve to ask nearly 40000 Euro for a Grandeur.

backy

Market share is nothing more than a distraction here...

Hello? Look at the title of this discussion. Market share is EVERYTHING in this context. It's only a distraction for you because you don't understand how an automaker can see an increase in sales year over year while losing market share.

Hyundai will sell the Genesis coupe in Europe later this year. As for the Genesis sedan and Equus, they are not sold in Europe yet. Why not attack the world's largest luxury car markets (US and China) first, then go into Europe? I am surprised you think Hyundai should have attacked the European market immediately with the Genesis, since you seem to think that European buyers are a class above others. So doesn't it make sense to get experience in other markets first, then move into Europe--first with a Euro-spec coupe (which already exists), then maybe the Equus, then maybe the next-gen Genesis sedan? No, you would rather that Hyundai would have simultaneously launched the then-unproven Genesis on all continents. Not a very smart marketing strategy, IMO.

BTW, Hyundai sells the Genesis and Equus in more countries than just the US and ROK.

Your name-calling of Hyundai's executives shows your true colors, and destroys any credibility you might have had in my eyes. Since you don't agree with the data these execs present, you can only hurl insults at them. Sad.

fintail

In the context of this specific discussion - that being the big name competition seeing healthy sales while the Genesis too continues to sell, market share is irrelevant - BECAUSE THE "MARKET" CANNOT BE AGREED UPON - nobody can claim what is really the competition or what makes the boundaries. Just because fanboys believe the main competition is 5er and E doesn't make it so.

H itself has said it has no plans to sell the Equus in Europe, due to the inability of Lexus to sell its cars there. Something in that statement makes me think H is competing more with Lexus than the Germans. In terms of making demands about driving dynamics - European buyers ARE in a class above others, hence the inability of more bland high end cars to succeed there. If there's even a rumor that the suspension isn't balanced, nobody will touch it. The coupe eventually being sold in Europe (rumored for more than a year, AFAIK still nothing) is irrelevant as nobody can argue it shares competitors with the sedan. With Hyundai being clueless enough to offer the Grandeur at nearly 40000 Euro, where the heck would the Genesis sedan even fit in? 50000 Euro or more? Good luck with that!

Which other first world nations get the Genesis and Equus? Which nations that already have defined and accepted market categories?

The onus is on the execs to produce some kind of evidence of their wild stories. I don't see any...nor do I see a reason to cry when they are doubted. Yes, my "true colors"...I am jaded and skeptical when it comes to corporate propaganda emitted by overpaid suits. Shame on me. What's "sad" is the sheep who will defend them.

stever

You guys are making it a bit too personal so let's tone it down a notch please.

backy

Just because fanboys believe the main competition is 5er and E doesn't make it so.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that. And I don't think Hyundai believes that. I think it's clear they see the J3's luxury brands as their main competitors, but since MB and Jaguar and BMW etc. play in this market also, they too are competitors for Hyundai's luxury offerings, whether Hyundai or you or I like it or not.

Hyundai sees the China automotive market as very important--it is after all the world's largest car market. The German automakers are focused on it also, and have invested heavily there with several including Audi, BMW, and VW building cars there, and even MB building engines there. So Hyundai has some good company in China.

michaellno

Hyundai sees the China automotive market as very important--it is after all the world's largest car market. The German automakers are focused on it also, and have invested heavily there with several including Audi, BMW, and VW building cars there, and even MB building engines there. So Hyundai has some good company in China.

But does H have the same brand recognition and status in China that they do in the US?

I suspect that if you asked 1000 US citizens what the H brand meant, they would probably reply low price, value for money and the warranty thing. Same 1000 people wouldn't say the same thing about Audi, MB, BMW, Jaguar, Lexus or Infiniti.

What do you think 1000 Chinese citizens would say? I've no idea, either.

In China, Buick has a great reputation and is a brand that is heavily coveted. In the US, the Buick brand is working hard to overcome the perception that it's "your grandfathers' car".

So, tough to compare the US market to the market in Europe or Asia.

What would Americans think of the Dacia or Seat brand if they were introduced to the US? Heck, what are they thinking of the impending return of the Fiat brand after being absent for so many years? Even now, I suspect that many of us think of Fiat as an unreliable, tinny piece of junk. Fiat will have to work hard with the 500 (and future models) to overcome that perception.

Going back to the question posed by the thread title, I do believe there is room in the luxury market for H, given that the Genesis is selling fairly well, and I'm sure there are those who purchased one instead of a 5-series, E-class, G/M 37, or something similar.

I'll reserve judgment on the Equus, as it hasn't been released, but I suspect that there will be a small (but vocal) group who believe the Equus provides value for money when compared to the 7-series, S-class or Lexus LS models. And, the warranty on the Equus will be better than those it competes against. Both of which fit nicely into the brand image that H is developing - just as good as the competition, but for less money.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - H has one (soon to be two) luxury models, but it is not, nor will it ever be, a luxury brand.

captain2

FYI - Toyota/Nissan and the like both make some fine relatively luxurious vehicles but DO NOT sell in the luxury market IN THIS COUNTRY and under those particuilar brands. Hyundai is in the same position, and never will sell in the luxury market with that particular brand. Simply producing what could be defined as a luxury car does not necessarily mean that particular mfgr can have any impact in the 'luxury market'.
While I'm sure that there are many Gen buyers who have convinced themselves that they have bought a luxury car. They are, unfortunately, fooling themselves only because such an evaluation is much more subjective than that and has little if anything to do with the car itself.
Such are the ridiculous vagaries that define the luxury market - and that brand/status conscious AMERICAN consumer. If you don't want to acknowledge (or agree with) what has defined the luxury market for longer than both of us has been alive, that's one thing - but to deny it all simply ridiculous.

captain2

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - H has one (soon to be two) luxury models, but it is not, nor will it ever be, a luxury brand
you are a lot more succinct than I apparently
AND
I do believe there is room in the luxury market for H,
Agree with this also - there is always 'room' for good products at fair prices. Hyundai will simply have to market its entries as something else to find that room - just like many others have done in the past.

backy

Nissan sells an $80k+ car in the US under the Nissan name. If they can do that, why can't Hyundai sell a $60k car under its own label? Chevy sells $100k+ car, and it's not a luxury brand either.

Since according to you the determination of whether a car is a luxury car is subjective, then if a Genesis owner thinks he/she owns a luxury car, it's a luxury car, right? "I think, therefore I am."

But instead of that position, I think I'll have to go along with auto pros like C/D, who have no problem seeing the Genesis sedan as it is: a luxury car, sold by a non-luxury brand.

What I see is a change happening in car buying habits. This change has been documented in several reports, many of which have been linked into this discussion. What they are saying is that pretension is less a factor in higher-end car buying--a trend that helps Hyundai in its efforts to expand its presence in the luxury car market.

fintail

I think the H corporate propaganda line is very much to the effect that the G is competing with the E and 5er. Just as when I mention those Germans are doing well even with the Genesis selling consistently meaning the competition might be someone else, it draws ire. But it isn't so easy as just pointing at a "market", as IMO nobody can agree on the definition of this market.

China is an important market - I wonder how they view the 5er/E vs Genesis. When I visited the AMG factory, there were a group of Chinese tourists (probably crony capitalists who own abusive sweatshops) taking a fleet of cars for a test drive/ride. I wonder if they visit Seoul or UIsan or wherever they are built.