Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

fintail

The Phaeton (especially inside) is a piece of prewar Bauhaus architecture compared to the face brick plywood and Chinese-drywall McMansion architecture of the Equus.

fintail

That would assume the S and Equus were apples to apples when new. Only the most frothing fanboy would make such a claim.

lemko

LOL! That was pretty good!!! :P



Phaeton



Equus

fintail

Phaeton kind of reminds me of an updated MB W126 inside...it's so Germanic and businesslike. Looks even better with the power vent doors closed, too.

Equus reminds me of a Lexus inside, which warms my heart in no way.

captain2

The cynic in me thinks that this is a ploy to have Equus owners avoid the downmarket service departments that are a part of many Hyundai dealers.

and what do you think the whole 100k warranty is Nothing more than a 'ploy' to get the autobuyer to overlook Hyundai's checkered past and also one that has some very limited applicability. Effective to be sure but also something that Hyundai was forced into doing to sell its products.

The thought of a real honest to goodness luxury car buyer alongside those Accent buyers IS one of the reasons that a Hyundai branded product will not compete well in this segment. When a sales staff only knows how to sell price and often can only talk payment sizes, they tend to overlook what the luxury buyer really wants - something he or she can rightfully think is the best and also some degree of exclusivity. Price is a secondary consideration.

The whole idea of selling something because it is 'cheaper' and what makes the luxury car market work is a contradiction in terms.

captain2

by many accounts the Phaeton was/is superior to the A8 it was based on. A helluva an effort by VW even it if did suffer from more than its share of those traditional Germanic electronic gremlins. It took all of about 38 seconds for the Phaeton to become a money pit that makes a Town Car seem like a good investment.
The real problem? That big ole chrome 'VW' on the steering wheel hub and likewise where it was sold. So you have a perfectly legit mislabelled and mismarketed German car on one hand, and possibly the same for a Korean one on the other - and now we expect the result to be different?

michaellno

and what do you think the whole 100k warranty is Nothing more than a 'ploy' to get the autobuyer to overlook Hyundai's checkered past and also one that has some very limited applicability. Effective to be sure but also something that Hyundai was forced into doing to sell its products.

It did work .. my folks, who have owned 3 Toyotas over the years, bought an '03 Sonata rather than a Camry LE as their last new car. If Hyundai didn't offer the warranty, I do believe they would have been forced to abandon the US market.

The thought of a real honest to goodness luxury car buyer alongside those Accent buyers IS one of the reasons that a Hyundai branded product will not compete well in this segment. When a sales staff only knows how to sell price and often can only talk payment sizes, they tend to overlook what the luxury buyer really wants - something he or she can rightfully think is the best and also some degree of exclusivity. Price is a secondary consideration.

+1 on that statement. If Hyundai only has plans to sell 2000 Equus' (Equi?) in the US, why even bother to certify it for sale here? As I said in an earlier post, I do believe that there will be those value conscious customers who will spend $50K for the Equus and think they got a bargain when compared to a $70-80K BMW or MB. However, when it comes time to trade or sell, all bets are off.

toye

Because they can!

It's of national pride that Korea can compete with Japan that has dominated long dominated the auto industry in Asia and North America.

Again some people on this blog continue to underestimate Hyundai's rise in the automobile industry.

One auto mag has recently wrote that Hyundai should be no longer declared as an underdog but a leader in the industry. But of course that flies in the face of some of the thought process on this blog :shades:

backy

Every Hyundai dealer I've dealt with over the years has a phone number that can be used to schedule service. I'll bet that number will work to schedule service for the Equus also.

Re the Equus looking like a Lexus... just because you don't like the styling of Lexus or Hyundai, doesn't mean those automakers can't be successful in the luxury market. Lexus outsells MB in the US, for example. There's room for cars for buyers with different tastes.

fintail

But doesn't having to use the embarrassing old tech of a telephone kind of negate the purpose of having that fancy shiny ipad in the glovebox? Or does that mean its just a gimmick made to turn the heads of sheeple?

Lexus also barely exists in most the rest of the world, due in large part to boring or derivative styling and numb handling. It's also not exactly a runaway sales leader, either. But yes, buy what you want...that's the great thing about a mostly free society...you are free to buy what you want, and I am free to opine about it

backy

It's always good to have a backup for any kind of technology. For example, cars with sunroofs (even European luxury cars) have a manual override for the sunroof. Most cars have spare tires. These components rarely fail these days. But when they do, it's nice to have the backup.

I suppose you consider the LFA to be another Lexus that has boring, derivative styling and numb handling. Although I've heard presales in Europe are very hot for that Lexus. For people like you who need to take their everyday cars on the racetrack (or treat regular roads as racetracks?), maybe that's the Lexus for you.

fintail

I don't think that backup spiel, as funny as it is, is really applicable to the lack of practical reasons to put the ipad in the Equus. It's a gimmick, nothing more.

LFA is being bought as investment by people with too much money rather than as an actual car. You don't think that more than a small few of these will actually see track time, or any kind of spirited driving at all, do you? I can assure you that 20 years after launch, few will have been driven any significant mileage. It's also a tiny amount of production compared to Toyota or even Lexus in general, and isn't worth real discussion when it comes to the context of the firm offering cars with even a hint of styling or performance. It's a (somewhat ugly) curiosity more than anything. And it's not really a normal presale kind of event...people have been invited to buy them rather than the other way around. You do know that Lexus, the higher models especially, have been a virtual flop on the Euro market, right? Or that the IS-F, the actual mass market performance entry by Lexus is still widely ignored pretty much everywhere? But I guess as H is trying to emulate Lexus with the homely Equus, we should bow down to both :lemon:

toye

Gimmick?

Most autos within 10 years will likely adopt the same technology that Hyundai announced first with the Equus in contacting your dealer and the application of the owners manuel on an I pad

You're just upset because your beloved MB didn't think of it first!

Perhaps they should have if they were on their game!!!

fintail

If that was true, everyone would be copying the idea right now. They aren't.

What is your source about that future technology? Cars can be bought today that have the manual in the ICE hard drive, and the technology for such ICE to contact a dealer database is not remarkable. I have seen nothing about "most" cars coming with ipads.

Looking at MB sales and quality trends over the past couple years, it looks like they are still on their game. Sorry, that bait doesn't work. I can admit the faults of "my beloved"...does the luxo-try from your beloved Korea have any faults?

backy

You post of "practical reasons" to put an iPad into the Equus. That is one of the funniest (I am sure unintentionally so) things I have read yet in Town Hall. We're talking about luxury cars, here... some of these cars (like the S550 you brought up, which MT tested awhile back) cost over $100,000 new. Some have 400+ hp engines. Sumptuous leather and wood trim. 17-speaker stereo systems (well, the Equus does at least). etc. etc. And you post re practicality of an iPad?? That's a riot!!

You don't think that more than a small few of these will actually see track time, or any kind of spirited driving at all, do you?

No, I don't. Just as I think only a small few luxury car owners will ever test the handling limits of their cars... even of the "numbest" Lexus.

If you think the LFA is "ugly", I can see why you think the Equus is ugly... you apparently don't like the looks of any cars except those boxy European sedans. Well, to each his own.

fintail

The most practical reason for the ipad is to make people look at Hyundai. Leather, wood, big engines, etc are more practical than an easily broken/lost and rapidly obsolete tablet computer.

Some people in some markets drive with a little more joie de vivre than others, which IMO explains a lot of the problems Lexus has had selling elsewhere than in the land of dull interstates and lowest common denominator driving standards...IIRC a couple Lexus models received CR's lowest handling scores...says enough for me.

Asian makes in general have been inconsistent at applying solid styling, and I am not alone in thinking so. I am surprised the Equus doesn't have light clusters that reach back to the A-pillar. I'm only half joking.

Who you callin boxy? :P



But I will take boxy over curvy for the sake of curvy, which often comes off imbalanced and awkward (like Sonata...ok from the side, odd from front angles...hmmm...directly influenced by the CLS from that boxy old German maker too)

toye

Lets see..... Chyrsler has just announced that they have come up with an I pad application for some of their car manuels....

The upcoming Hyundai Veloster will have a standard 6 or 8" in dash screen in all their vehicles to help handle new technologies. If I'm not mistaken GPS and backup camera will be standard as well. Prices will likely start under 18K.

Lets face it Hyundai used to be way behind in such tech offerings, but in the last generations of their vehicles they have become very aggressive!

lemko

Lets face it Hyundai used to be way behind in such tech offerings, but in the last generations of their vehicles they have become very aggressive!

It's most likely because the cost of the technology has come way down. Not too long ago, it would've been cost-prohibitive except for the most expensive marques.

fintail

Offering an app is different from dangling the carrot of a free device in order to create hype. Chrysler isn't giving away ipads to lure the undecided into its Lexus clone.

Veloster...how many years til we'll actually see one?

Tech gets cheaper every day. I give H credit for encouraging the advancement of engine evolution more than anything else. H is aggressive indeed, the only way to survive when coming from behind. I have never denied the gigantic improvements the company has made.

tenpin288

Veloster...how many years til we'll actually see one?

While not on topic, since you asked, here you go...

The up-coming Hyundai Veloster Coupe, which is scheduled to make its official premiere at the 2010 Paris Auto Show in October (officially starts on October 2nd)...

The long-awaited entry-level Hyundai coupe is set to go on sale in Europe early next year, while sales in the US market are expected to commence in the second half of 2011.

backy

I said boxy sedans... the photo is of a coupe. But it does resemble the lines of the Equus and some other Hyundais e.g. Sonata and 2011 Elantra moreso than the typical European sedan.

What does "curvy for the sake of curvy" mean, anyway? And is it similar to the concept of "boxy for the sake of boxy"? :confuse:

Odd you should mention CR. Since you respect the opinion of CR, note they rate the LS as the "best car overall". That's the best of all cars they have ever tested. There's only one European luxury car, the 911 Carrera S, in CR's top 10. But the Genesis 3.8 is in their top 10.

fintail

OK then, who you callin boxy?



Curvy for the sake of curvy...dramatic and somewhat inconsistent styling made to attract attention. Somewhat like the Sonata (which tries to ape that CLS) Boxy for the sake of boxy...Volvo.

How does that leviathan coupe resemble the Equus or Genesis or any other H, when it predates any by several years? If there was a resemblance other than having windows and doors, it's in the other direction. The Genesis resembles the E60 5er more than anything else. The Equus is very Lexus LS to my eyes.

CR also lists the S as "recommended", something I wouldn't have believed even 5 years ago. More than one brand is improving. 911 is a sports car, doesn't compete with big boat sedans. And I don't embrace CR, but when even they think Lexus makes poor handling cars and the LS performed very poorly in their performance tests, it screams volumes.

backy

Curvy for the sake of curvy...dramatic and somewhat inconsistent styling made to attract attention.

Well, that pretty much describes the photo of the "4 door coupe" you posted. Dramatic and inconsistent styling compared to other MB sedans. At least Hyundai's styling for their sedans is developing a family similarity.

You don't embrace CR except to point out when they agree with you. If they don't agree with you, then they are to be ignored. I get it. But since the 911 isn't a luxury car, it means there are NO European luxury cars in CR's top ten. But there is a Hyundai, plus some other Asian luxury cars.

BTW... there is absolutely no way a car can perform "very poorly" in CR's performance tests, as you assert, and score a near-perfect 99 on the road test.

The Equus is very Lexus LS to my eyes.

I don't doubt that... despite huge styling differences between the two cars.

fintail

The inconsistency is how the theme is poorly managed on the car itself, not compared to others in the brand. The CLS wasn't meant to be consistent with other MB sedans, it didn't replace anything, it (very successfully) made a new niche. Maybe the CLS copied Hyundai too, just like that CL. Right.

CR doesn't agree with me and I have no love for it, but when that purveyor of dependability at all costs lists an insanely complex German car as "recommended", it says the car is likely much improved on the drama front.

"BTW", the LS was the slowest performer in CR accident avoidance tests. That says a lot about performance and handling. CR is not a great guide when it comes to spirited driving, but when even an easy to drive car is slowest, it's not a good handler. CR can help to guess if a stove or refrigerator or car will run without breaking down, but not much when it comes to actually driving a car. This might be a big part of why the car is so much more well received in NA than elsewhere, as people drive at a lower level in NA.

Equus interior especially is Lexus like, along with the silhouette of the entire car, bumper-intake details, lower trim details, really the greatest difference is the little rear quarter window. Much more similar than the Equus compared to the Germans.

captain2

It's of national pride that Korea can compete with Japan
speaking as somebody who has actually worked over there alongside the Koreans - take it from me it's a bit more than 'pride' - more like a patriotic obsession. We Americans could learn much. And also the reason why the Korean government has subsidized a number of industries over the years deemed 'worthy' of competing in as well as its rapid rise economically.
That said, though, the Koreans are a remarkable people with a work ethic that has long since left this country and yes, they have some historical precedent to be targeting Japan in many of their endeavors.

backy

CR doesn't agree with me and I have no love for it, but when that purveyor of dependability at all costs lists an insanely complex German car as "recommended", it says the car is likely much improved on the drama front.

Yes, I think it does show MB is improving on the reliability front--meaning in fact it is lower on the drama scale.

Note you contradicted yourself. First you assert that the LS was the slowest performer in CR accident avoidance tests (more on that later)--and thus it says a lot about performance and handling. Then you say CR can't help you when it comes to actually driving a car. Now, doesn't an accident avoidance maneuver involve driving the car? :confuse:

As for the LS being slowest in accident avoidance--if the LS is so bad in accident avoidance, why did CR rate it above average there? Same as the A8, E Class, 5 Series, and XF?

Equus interior especially is Lexus like,...

Since the LS' interior is universally praised for quality and comfort, that is actually a good thing, no? As for side profile, I think the new M is much more like the Equus there than the Equus is like the LS. Other LS and Equus differences are grille (LS is horizontal, Equus vertical), headlamps (Equus' are larger and sweep higher), taillamps, and as you noted the greenhouse. Quite a few differences I think.

captain2

BTW", the LS was the slowest performer in CR accident avoidance tests
perhaps because of Toyota's/Lexus' ultraconservative approach to those silly electronic 'nannies' that are now infecting our automobiles in epidemic proportion???
While the Germans (esp. BMW) seemingly have more understanding of what a real driver wants and therefore designs these 'safety' system interventions accordingly???

Which, in the process of getting back on back, begs the question of where somebody who would like to make 'luxury' cars someday needs to focus their efforts - the softer Lexus type approach shown to be preferred by most Americans or trying to hit that delicate ride/handling balance which is so very difficult to do?

tjc78

begs the question of where somebody who would like to make 'luxury' cars someday needs to focus their efforts - the softer Lexus type approach shown to be preferred by most Americans or trying to hit that delicate ride/handling balance which is so very difficult to do?

That is a very important question. I think that part of the reason that Lexus (and Toyota for that matter) has done so well here is the fact that they offer a smooth plush ride in most of their vehicles. I haven't checked #s to be sure, however, I would be willing to bet that the ES and LS outsell the more performance oriented IS and GS.

Hyundai seems to mimic alot of what Toyota has done in the past and their vehicles are on the soft side. The Genesis is a "tweener" Not quite BMW firm, nor Lexus soft. This causes some interesting ride characteristics, but thats another topic. The Equus appears as if its going to be soft like an LS.

If I was in charge I would offer vehicles with the old school Caddy/Buick/Lincoln ride and then offer "sport' or "touring" models to satisfy the crowd that want a more engaging driving experience. One size doesn't fit all, especially in this segment

backy

The Equus has an adjustable suspension that will allow tailoring of ride quality.

fintail

For something like CR to recommend a car, the drama potential must be low. There's also a distinct lack of complaints about the car on enthusiast boards - where people will obsess about any major fault.

Accident avoidance isn't enthusiast driving.

Are you denying the LS was the slowest in accident avoidance? Are you denying that the LS has long been a bland and limp performer? The subjective ratings in that stat from CR are meaningless compared to the result...the car long considered to be an uninvolving drive was slowest.

Regarding the interior, I am using the context of design, and you know that. Yes, the materials are nice and it is as comfortable as can be, so long as you don't turn the wheel. The Equus in the banner ad on the right side of this page has a horizontally slatted grille, like a LS. The car still retains a very similar front bumper and side trim treatment to the Lexus, along with a remarkably similar silhouette.

You just can't get over that I won't consider the Equus an equal to the Euro competition, can you?

fintail

Your first part is likely exactly right rearding the poor performance numbers. Some understand what actual drivers want more than others. This IMO explains the failure of Lexus, especially the larger models, in Europe and the low take rate of the brand pretty much anywhere outside of NA.

Adjustable suspensions can solve a lot of problems...but there should be something other than variations of "floating".

backy

Are you denying the LS was the slowest in accident avoidance?

No, but I haven't seen any evidence presented that it was the slowest vehicle in CR's accident avoidance tests. What I do see is the LS ranked by CR as above average in accidence avoidance, while they ranked many other vehicles average or below average. Can you provide us with the link stating that the LS was the slowest vehicle CR tested in accident avoidance?

As for the LS being a bland and limp performer... general expert opinion is that the LS is an exceptional luxury cruiser, smooth and comfortable, as many people prefer their luxury cars to be. Just because you don't like how the LS drives doesn't mean it isn't a good choice for others--and judging from its market acceptance over the years, it is successful.

This track of, "I don't like how a car looks or drives, hence it is crap" doesn't have anything to do with the larger picture whether Hyundai (or any other automaker) has room in the luxury marketplace. There's a variety of tastes for cars out there, and room for different kinds of luxury cars. So I really don't care whether or not you consider the Equus an equal to European competition. It's really about what the market in general will say about that, that matters.

But for someone who has never even seen an Equus up close, let alone driven one, you certainly have well-formed opinions about its quality, interior design and materials (and comfort), and how it drives.

stever

From China.

Well, competition for the S Class at least. :shades:

Volvo's New Chairman Wants to Build S-Class Rival (Inside Line)

The owner's manual for this one comes on a Droid.

smarty666

Unfortunately though, MB interior's have been a tiny bit disappointing with the use of some cheap plastics. I've read a couple of reviews over the last 1-2 yrs on the C and E class slapping MB on the wrists for a few cheap plastic pieces that really look out of place in an otherwise nice cabin. They cut corners just like everyone else does.

fintail

You're the one who has told me to look things up in the past, take a dose of your own medicine. Click here or ...... Click here or Click here...there ought to be something to your liking, and if not, too bad so sad.

The LS is successful in one market anyway. Maybe H wants the Equus to just be a US market car.

If I don't like how a car looks or drives, or even worse, looks and drives, I will call it crap. Aesthetics and driving quality are why I like cars. I'm not looking for a toaster, even a fancy stainless steel 8 slice model that can toast both bagels and flatbread. If that is irksome, one should take a nickel's worth of free advice and skip my posts. It's really the only recourse one has. There's a butt for every seat, but one can choose where their butt sits

I never said a word about Equus quality, did I? Either link that insinuation or refrain from such a statement. Interior and exterior design can be gauged from the multitude of pics on these here interwebs, and how it drives can logically be assumed from previous products and reviews now that the LS competitor is starting to come round.

Not a competitor for the big Germans...

smarty666

I haven't heard anyone complain about Infiniti's styling and in fact think its down right sporty looking across their models, especially the new M. Infiniti definitely has more elegant lines and styling on the outside then MB and BMW has. Both the latter are way to conservative still. The new 5 series is the first BMW in a long time that has begun to draw my attention. MB can't hold a candle to Audi in the exterior design/interior design category though.

fintail

I think that can be found in just about every automaker these days. Really, it has been a complaint levied against MB for the past 15 years at least...I remember the furor over W202 door panels back in the day. There were especially problems back in the Chrysler days, but now I think they are being left behind. The C-class can be pretty uninspiring inside as the plastic spec sold in expensive models here seems to be the same as in basic Euro models, but the new E and the S are as good as they've been in years. Austere to some, but others don't mind that. I don't want a mobile McMansion with faux Tuscan architecture and palm trees in a non-native location :shades:

smarty666

I know, I was just saying, or making the point that its sad to see companies like MB, Acura, Lexus, etc start to cut some corners here and there, yet the price of the vehicles keep going up.

fintail

I don't find the new M to be anything to look at all...and the FX is downright hideous. Not a brand with much elegance in my eyes...I think the G is the best looking of their lineup. The coolest M to me was the original, the very JDM looking Nissan Cedric style car from ca. 2002.

German styling has been 95% conservative for 80 years and this won't change. I do agree the new (F10) 5er is light years ahead of the previous model.

Nobody can hold a candle to Audi design, but the more staid competition still seem to age better in terms of mechanicals.

fintail

Price of an 500SEL in 1992 ~82K. Price of an S550 in 2010 - ~91K. 300E in 1986 - 37K. E350 in 2010 - 48K. 190E in 1990 was probably 28K-ish...base C300 today is maybe 33K. It's really not so bad...the options are what bloat the prices. We probably have Lexus to thank for those pricing trends.

It's all about short term profits.

smarty666

But still, your getting less well made or not as nice materials for more money, regardless over the spans of time you referenced, it still doesn't change the fact that the msrp's and thus dealer invoice go up by several hundred dollars each year! that consistent pattern after say 5-8 years adds up to decent price difference and your getting less for your money if their is more plastic and not as good fit/finish as in years past

smarty666

Couldn't disagree with you more about Infiniti, but everyone's intitled to their opinion, I have the 1G FX and while I'm not crazy about the changes to the front end on the 2G, I still get looks everyday from people b/c of its sporty/unique bodystyle and have yet to read a review harshly critizing its body style. I do agree that its time for a change with its body style simply b/c of its age on the market but that won't be for another 1-2 years.

I personally have found BMW and MB to have blah exterior styling and thus have little to no interest for me. The new 5 series is beginning to change that though for me a little with BMW.

MB should really rethink though copying Audi with the LED things. They are not doing a good job with them and they look like they were put on as an after thought.

fintail

It's all about material quality yeah...certainly less than it was 20 years ago as fighting for a lower price has become key. There was also less gadgetry in existence then, so resources could be devoted to materials and not ICE. The modern versions of most cars have a lot more toys, but maybe less chance of longterm survival.

fintail

Yep, elegant is an opinion. I don't mind the first FX at all, but the current model is just too odd and kind of pointlessly organic. I call it the "catfish". Something about Asian design demands that make weird cars, or weird in my eyes anyway. I also loathe huge stretched back light clusters.

I like traditional timeless design that ages well. A 30 year old S-class looks better today than almost anything today will look in 30 years.

LED bling lighting is a fad that will pass...and in time it will look very dated, and point to the 2010 era. Those MB light bars are just that, an afterthought...C-class is getting them next year too IIRC.

smarty666

Like I said, I like my 1G better than the new 2G. I think it was a mistake that Infiniti did little to change the styling other then uglifying the front and rear ends compared to the 1G. While I have always liked the G Sedan, that too was another model they did little to between its first and second generation and its time for a redesign on it b/c its age is beginning to show. While I really like the new M, that too, I don't think Infiniti did enough to change. That body style is going to age pretty quickly, especially with a new A6 and GS on the way in another year or two. If the essence coupe is any indication of Infiniti's direction, Audi and Infiniti will become the heads of the styling department.

Nothing today from any of the companies ages like anything from those times of 20-30 years ago b/c cars are not made anything like they were back then. Too much plastic and fake crap and its really a sad state of where the car companies have gone. There is more gadgets today like you said and that certainly could have led to the more focus/money on technology and less money on materials/parts, etc. Problem is, despite the better materials and build all those years ago, we can't live in the past, have to accept the way things are going with car construction and live with it.

by the way, traditional and timeless is an opinion as well I'm just busting on ya! :P I've felt the boring/conservative styles of BMW and MB have done nothing to warrant me driving around in one since I won't stand out from a crowd, despite being able to afford some of their models. I've never found the need to spend that extra money to drive around in a bland/boring style just to say I drive a MB or BMW, simply for the name recognition. Maybe in time that will change, BMW is certainly beginning to peak my interest finally, but MB no, at least not in the sedan or crossover departments as of right now, but that can always change. Plus, MB is going the direction of real low ground clearance, which for someone like me with a bad back problem, that is not a good thing for getting in and out of the car and even if I liked their styling, I would not be able to get one b/c of it. I'd be in a Audi in a second b/c their designs kick BMW and MB butts, but their reliability still seems to be a 50/50 chance of either getting a vehicle that is either problem free or problem littered and I'm not ready to gamble like I'm in a casino with that kind of money.

Def agree with you about the LED DRL fad. Probably will be popular and all over the place for the next 10-15 years and then will go the way of the dinosaurs.

Peace out for the Night!

backy

Let's see... the first link takes me to a summary of the CR test report on the LS, which states its accident avoidance is "Very Good". So that is to my liking, I suppose, as it supports what I told you earlier. The 2nd link notes that the LS is CR's top ranked car (99 out of a possible 100 points) and also notes that the CarConnection rates the LS equal to the likes of the S Class and 7 Series in safety--and accident avoidance is a component of safety. I also see in the reader comments what appears to be a vendetta by one individual who has posted in many, many sites about LS' time in the accident avoidance maneuver. But with all those posts, not a single link to the actual times. Odd.

Here's a link for you, right from Inside Line:

http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2009/12/il-track-tested-2010-lexus-ls-4- 60-sport-vs-2009-bmw-750i-sport.html

Handling comments (for the LS): Skid pad: Remarkable balance and feedback at the limit. You can easily drive with throttle despite low limits and relatively slow responses. Slalom: Surprisingly, turning stability control off actually means "off." Not much to be gained in doing so in slalom, however. Rear loses grip first, and this is a big car to slide at 65 mph.

Since the Equus is already sold in the ROK and China, and maybe other countries, and will be sold in several others in the near future including the US and Canada, I think it's clear the Equus will NOT be just a US market car.

You of course have every right to choose where your butt sits. But it doesn't mean all the world's butts will follow you.

Tell us, though... when it comes time to buy a car, do you just read about older designs from the same manufacturer and assume how your target car will drive based on that information? Or would you take that car you might buy for a drive?

lemko

True. A W126 still looks good and up to date today as it did 19 years ago when the last one rolled off the line. An Infiniti, Acura, et al will look as laughably dated in 20 years as a 1950s car did in the 1970s.

fintail

Infiniti's greatest crime is the same as most makers - bloat. Bigger and bigger seldom makes for nicer styling. And this often means blander...or stylists who get desperate and seek to be different just for the sake of being different...see Acura.

Not everything was great in the past. Most cars required more intensive servicing, and many highline cars were more expensive relative to incomes than today. The materials of a super durable late 80s S-class are extremely austere compared to modern cars - they just hold up better. I can deal with the way things are today, you have to make what sells, and some tech can be fun.

I like cars that don't look completely passe after 10 years. Many observers will agree that many BMW, Audi, and MB designs have aged very well, better than the competition. If you need ground clearance, you're going to want a crossover of some kind anyway. MB doesn't make any that really warm my heart.

Good luck with your FX...maybe skip this new "catfish" model and wait/hope for a more handsome descendent. :shades:

fintail

Yes, I was unable to find any precise numbers either...also unable to find anyone from CR or anywhere else debating the result. It appears CR did not publish the exact numbers. But nothing discredits the claim that the LS was indeed slowest...and none of this would matter if the Equus wasn't really more of a LS clone than a legit competitor to the Euros.

That InsideLine blurb about LS roadholding doesn't sound very impressive.

ROK and China...yeah, world leaders in driving enjoyment. I am sure the LS sells well there too.

And just because a manufacturer thinks it can compare with any given group just because a hype machine says so doesn't mean the market will agree. This has been proven in the past.

Where did I say I "just" read about older designs and do nothing else, as you imply? Please, less hyperbole and drama.

fintail

Imagine a ZDX or even a new style TL in 20 years.