Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

smarty666

I'm not caught up in anything. I'm not crazy the direction Acura has taken, and unless something changes between now and the end of the 2011, I won't be going back into another Acura. That doesn't mean they don't have products that are well regarded and sell well.

They had winners along after that model. The 3G TL was a huge design and sales success and so was the 1G TSX. The TSX still remains one of the highest sales in the entry-level lux segment, and the MDX ranks the highest if not second highest in luxury SUV comparisons, sales, etc so this idea that Acura has no winning products is ridiculous. The RL and TL are actually what are really hurting Acura the most right now.

Personally, Acura was doing fine and really on a role and a improved direction until 2009 when they started retooling their styling and designs. Same thing can be said for Honda starting in 2008. Also, when they began the redesigns in 2009, they did not add enough new technologies, features, etc to go along with that change and so many of their products have not kept up with the competition.

By the way, I don't need to be told and go read anything. Lets keep the discussion respectful and I do a lot of reading. I don't need to be belittled. I'd suggest you stop putting down and harping on brands you don't like, and stop going in and putting down current Acura owners/buyers of their current products. Let them be happy with their purchase decision, regardless that you wouldn't go along with it.

I'd never go to my local Hyundai dealer, they are the lowest trash on the planet, with low live salesman who stand out side the showroom and can't even let you get out of your car before looking around, let alone do high pressure sales. I would have to drive an hour away to get to another Hyundai dealer who might not be that bad. Regardless, while I like the new Sonata, the seats were not comfortable on my back, nor were the ones in the Genesis when I sat in them at the autoshow and a couple of open vehicles on a Sunday afternoon at my local dealership.

I do like the interior and body style of the new Sonata though, very slick looking.

jimbres

Which means the 6 Series is not currently being produced.

Why do you say this? BMW's USA website shows this as a current model. Please furnish a link if you have good reason for believing that this car has been discontinued.

Whatever its status, I will say that this is my least favorite BMW, & I am both a BMW owner & a big fan of the brand. The 6-series seems to be the car of choice for 50- & 60-something men who have more money than taste & who want to show off their much younger trophy wives.

If BMW decided tomorrow to discontinue this model, I for one wouldn't miss it.

backy

Methinks you are confusing "inspired by" with "copied".

C/D must have goofed when in their September issue they stated the 6 Series was bye-bye.

tjc78

Just because a car is said to be on the chopping block doesn't mean it won't be for sale for a while. Heck Ford has been talking about the demise of the Panther platform for 5 years now and they are still selling them and they are on their website.

backy

C/D was pretty clear on p. 54 of the September issue:

Dead: M5, M6, 6-series

Maybe they got inaccurate info from BMW??

fintail

I'm not confused in any way. I see no inspiration or copying in terms of the old Sonata being related to an A6. If anything, the new style model is much more Audi-like, save for the heavy handed front end. I saw one today, highline, a nice medium grey...fairly nice looking from back and side - much more so than a Camry...I didn't look in my mirror as I moved by on the highway :shades:

The current style 6er will be dead soon, as it has had a long run - and this might even result in a slight layover until the replacement is ready, but I have seen nothing claiming the line will be permanently dead, and many rumor/future model sites show supposed 2012 designs. The M6 is now on hiatus, but the 6er line is alive. It seems to be a cash cow aimed at useless trophy wives and trust fund [non-permissible content removed] like jimbres mentions, so BMW is likely not to kill it.

backy

Not sure which Audi you are thinking of, but IMO the 2011 Sonata looks like no Audi I know of. Audi simply doesn't put that many creases into its sheetmetal. Now, Kia... they are clearly going down the Audi path on styling inspiration with their latest models--no doubt because they stole one of Audi's chief designers.

fintail

Oh yeah, no Audi trend there...the arcing 6 window roofline and greenhouse must be completely random. I suppose the old Ford 500/Taurus with the same roofline was random too. Granted, nobody has done that cluttered and clumsy Sonata front end, and the busybody rear end seems something by itself too...but the profile is very A6 influenced in my eyes, much more so than the old Accord previous model.

Kia and Audi...haven't seen it yet. I have seen images of the slated 2011 Optima, which has some inelegant features, but IMO is better looking than the Sonata. Not an Audi, though. There is an older Kia which looks like the love child of a 1996 E class and a 1998 Town Car :shades:

jimbres

Hope you're right about the demise of the 6-series. It was the answer to a question that no one was asking.

The M5 is a high-performance version of the 5-series sedan. The 5 is entirely new for 2011, so my hunch is that a new M5, based on the latest generation (F10) 5-series, will come along in a couple of years.

This seems to be BMW's modus operandi. The last generation (E60) 5-series was introduced to the U.S. market in 2004, but the M5 based on that generation didn't come out until 2006.

backy

If you want to see the Audi influence on Kia, probably the best place to look is the Forte Koup:





Compare to the Audi coupe:

fintail

The first 6 was the only good one. 1988 M6 = cool. 2006 M6 = not so much.

fintail

Was that penned by the Audi transplant, or is just copycatism? Oh yeah, Honda Civic called, it wants its front end back.

Still better looking than any H that comes to mind, at least.

backy

Pretty sure the Koup was penned by the Audi transplant. If you are going to use an automaker for influence, might as well be influenced by the best--or one of the best at least.

jimbres

1988 M6 = cool. 2006 M6 = not so much.

Agreed.

fintail

True, that's a good strategy. Hopefully the next Genesis won't have such a resemblance to the E60 5er :shades:

fintail

And a 1988 M5 is so much cooler than a 2008 M5 that a supercomputer can't calculate the difference.

backy

I'm sure "fluidic sculpture" will make it's way to the Genesis by then. And I'm sure you won't like the result.

fintail

You're probably right. Calling it "sculpture" is a ridiculous euphemism at best. It's a Korean toaster, not artwork. But if it doesn't look like a BMW knock off, at least it will have independence going for it.

tjc78

There is an older Kia which looks like the love child of a 1996 E class and a 1998 Town Car







I don't see the resemblance! :P At least they are doing better now.

fintail

If anything, that thing on top shows how much the company has advanced in just a few years. They know not to be that shameless today.

There's one in my area with a thickly padded faux cabriolet top, too. Classy.

lemko

I've always thought of an Amanti as a Buick LeSabre with an E-Class front end with a Chrysler grille.

backy

Well, they have to call their styling theme something. And even though you don't like the word "sculpture", I think it's fitting in this case. The new Hyundai designs do look "sculpted", to me. Especially compared to the same-old boring sedans we've lived with for decades.

backy

Kia made fun of themselves for the E Class resemblance in their ads for the Amanti. They showed an Amanti pulling up to a swanky place, and some stuffed shirts with German accents commenting on the new Mercedes. As I recall it was pretty funny.

The Amanti replacement, the Cadenza (or K7), is much different from the Amanti:

fintail

Did the German comments have a lot to do with pigs and dogs and sh-ice? :shades:

Anything has to be better than that Amanti...is there also room in the luxury market for Kia?

fintail

A styling theme doesn't need a name. It can come off as a bit pretentious when appliance design is romanticized.

Old boring sedans, new boring sedans...let's not overstate the design merits og these cars...meh

backy

A styling theme doesn't need a name.

You mean, like "Hofmeister Kink"? :P

Once again, what's OK for your fav automakers isn't OK for Hyundai.

As for pretentious... here you go:

fintail

The Hofmeister kink isn't a theme, it is a feature of a small part of the car. No different than a BMW "shark" nose.

Pretentious

backy

Giving a name to a simple styling characteristic smacks me of being very pretentious.

At least the Equus is more subtle in its badging--unlike the HUGE logo that shouts, "Look at me, I own a Mercedes!!" Very pretentious.

I notice you don't object to other cars having hood ornaments (although the US Equus will not have one)... the MBs that have hood ornaments, for example.

lemko

That's not a hood ornament. It's a front sight.

backy

I thought MBs were more sophisticated these days. I figured for sure they'd have laser sights. It looks more like something that belongs on a 1918 Fokker Triplane.

bobad

I can admit the faults of "my beloved"...does the luxo-try from your beloved Korea have any faults?

Now I get it. It's not about the styling, or the price, or the quality. It's about the country of origin. That explains a lot of things. If the Equus were a product of Germany, you'd be slobbering all over it.

sweendogy

666smarty
i love how you want to keep the discussions respectful and then in the next paragraph type "I'd never go to my local Hyundai dealer, they are the lowest trash on the planet>"

on your thoughts about acura above: I agree they did nothing to advance the brand except for the new AWD system-- and the sonata is a good looking car..

fintail

I see the Equus to have all the elegance and grace of a 2002 7er - which is pretty much none at all. So no, nice theory, but no dice :P

I also have a fantastic Samsung TV and phone...so, nah, that's not it.

fintail

I'm not aware of BMW AG actually giving the trait the name. People named the easily identifiable little bend after the designer.

A large star logo is MB tradition, that dates back before us or any of our fathers. The hood ornament is even older, and it has more behind it than a KDM version of what makes luxury and status.

The word "Mercedes" appears in very few places on any MB, no screaming.

backy

Just because you aren't aware of something doesn't mean it didn't happen. You weren't aware of a Lexus LS limo edition, for example--but it exists. You weren't aware that Kia's styling is being directed by a former Audi guy--but it's happening.

So you are saying that as long as a hideous (your term) styling element such as a hood ornament is a "tradition", it's OK. How did the MB hood ornament become a tradition? They had to start sometime. When did the MB hood ornaments stop being "hideous" and instead became wonderful traditions? And if it's such a great tradition, why don't all MBs have it?

If a huge brand symbol on the front of the car isn't "screaming", I don't know what is.

Double standards rule.

fintail

Well, if you can show me someplace stating where BMW AG started the "Hofmeister" term as a pretentious way to name appliance design, I would love to see it. But as far as I have ever seen, it is a fanboy term. "Fluidic sculpture" on the other hand....................

If you want to know the history of the Mercedes star, you can google it - there are many good articles about the long history and evolution of this symbol, which is easily one of the most well known on the planet. The hood ornament was never "hideous", it was never something like an anachronistic bird on the hood of a modern car - design can't get much simpler than a three pointed star. Regarding why not all cars have it, again, google is your friend. It is historically not placed on postwar cars with sporting pretensions, and large coupes of the past 35 or so years, and prewar cars with engines not mounted at the front. But all cars will have a star of some sort.

What amount of MB production has a large star in the grille vs a relatively tiny ornament? Now you've found something completely ridiculous to harp on. If that isn't a distraction from the blandiose Equus, I don't know what is.

backy

Relevance to Equus: you have posted here many, many times about how terrible it is that the Equus has a hood ornament (in some markets at least). Yet many other luxury cars have a hood ornament--MB, Maybach, Rolls, Jaguar et. al. all have hood ornaments on at least some models. Now you say that is OK, because these hood ornaments are a "tradition." Why is it wrong for Hyundai to put a hood ornament on its flagship luxury sedan? The Equus has had a distinctive hood ornament since its debut 11 years ago. Maybe Hyundai is establishing a "tradition" for this design element for its flagship sedan, similar to what other automakers have done over the years. You can't have a tradition if you don't start it at some point.

I think this is a perfect example of how you and others in this discussion hold Hyundai to a different standard than everyone else. What is OK for MB et. al. is a no-no for Hyundai. Another example is grilles. You harp on how terrible the Genesis' grille is, and the Sonata's, yet you seem to love the huge, bold grilles on other cars. Why is that? Why is it OK for an automaker like MB to put an in-your-face grille on a car, but when Hyundai puts a distinctive grille on a car, it's hideous?

Re the history of the Hofmeister Kink, here's some info for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmeister_kink

Note a couple of things from the article:

* Although the article is not clear that BMW introduced the term, it is clear that BMW uses the term in its marketing, e.g. "... the Hofmeister kink is said by BMW to subtly highlight the fact that all BMW models have rear-wheel drive (or all-wheel drive biased to the rear)." So it's OK for BMW to use this fancy term to market its cars, but not OK for Hyundai to use the term "fluidic sculpture" to describe its current design theme.

* The Hofmeister Kink is not original to BMW. It was seen on several other cars before BMW adopted it, e.g. 1951 Kaiser Deluxe Golden Dragon. So much for the "originality" of German automotive designs vs. the "copycats" at Hyundai. :P

fintail

Tradition from 1999 doesn't really exist, there was no high end trend at that time making such hood ornaments a stylistic object as there was in the first few decades of the 20th century. Those other cars have heritage features that go back far longer than any of us have been alive. That's worth more than a knicknack stuck to the front of a car, made to appeal to some deranged idea of class or prestige. It was almost like a parody. Tradition doesn't start by making a lame copy of what others were doing 60 years before. It's pretty much like a Caddy with a faux Rolls grille.

Please link my quotes about the Genesis grille. I find it odd, but not really offensive (and it's not like H could go the whole 9 yards and put a kidney grille on its wannabe 5er) - not like the heavy handed mess on the front of the Sonata (which is far from a luxury car no matter the fanboy Kool-Aid being digested). The ridiculous faux-Maybach Equus (before it has apparently been toned down for developed market tastes) on the other hand, yeah, it's offensive. I also don't like the real Maybach, I certainly won't like a Geely style imitation.

Comparing the first BMW to use the kink (you'll have to look that up) to a Kaiser is ridiculous and honestly...the cars looked alike in no way other than a little piece of C-pillar...whereas the Genesis apes the entire greenhouse and proportions of the old E60. Nice try. Wikipedia is also not a source used as gospel.

I also haven't seen any actual marketing material from BMW AG promoting the kink, it gets a short historical paragraph on a website (claiming history dating to the 30s - could our beloved Wiki be wrong???) and nothing more.

Is this all because I'd take a used S over an Equus, or because I dared to point out that the Euro market leaders are seeing huge sales gains, and aren't being conquered? I don't eat from the hand of corporate propagandists?

No apple to apples to be found...

smarty666

I was only referring to my local Hyundai dealer, b/c I've been there before and it was a terrible experience. I'm only talking about MY local dealer. I didn't say that all Hyundai was trash and I was not referring to their vehicles only the salespeople I've dealt with. Unless you work for my local dealer, I don't understand why you would take that statement personal or say I'm being disrespectful since it wasn't directed at any edmunds members.

backy

In order for tradition to exist, there has to be history. Hyundai obviously has less history than many other automakers. Just why the number of years they have been making cars should preclude them from using styling elements other automakers routinely use, is something I don't fathom. This concept of, in order to have the right to use a hood ornament on a car, you must have been making cars for about 100 years, just doesn't seem very logical, or reasonable.

The Sonata has a "heavy handed mess" of a grille, while the MB in the photo I posted with an even larger chrome grill with huge horizontal bars and a huge MB emblem is just peachy in your eyes. Got it.

Funny how you challenge me to use google to find info on the Hofmeister Kink, but when I do that and post what I've found via google, you object to it. The facts hurt, don't they? The fact is, German automakers such as BMW are not immune from copying styling elements from other automakers--in this case, the kinked C-pillar used for years before BMW stole it and turned it into a marketing tool. So your deriding Hyundai because they have borrowed styling cues from other automakers but giving a pass to other automakers like BMW does indeed seem like a double standard being applied.

fintail

What makers of modern that don't have some kind of tradition of doing so are putting such ornaments on cars? Does Lexus or Infiniti (the Equus/Genesis true competitors)? I can't believe someone is actually defending that hood ornament, a hilarious feature that even H itself apparently knows will cause derision in demanding markets.

Oh, that C-class sport grille is inelegant, but it is just a submodel of the basic car, not pretending to be some kind of luxury marvel that competes with the established leaders, unlike a certain bland KDM style barge designed with a blingy waterfall grille and the most amusing hood ornament on a non-Chinese vehicle seen in decades.

Give me some evidence that the kink was "stolen", show me a similar car that predates the used of the feature that could have inspired a car that at the time had very little following. Then you are asked to show me how the kink is being used for marketing - for this I am telling you to give me some literature of any format that uses the kink to try to increase appeal or sales. I'd wager both of our annual incomes combined that the average BMW buyer doesn't even know what the kink is. Wikipedia...hmmm

If you don't like my supposed double standard, fine, you have every right not to love me...however, you'd be well advised to ignore my posts, as you lack the means to do anything else, and I fear I am going to give you an ulcer or worse if I keep on failing to submit to the mighty swoopy H.

Oh yeah, I see now I can pick up an 07 E63 AMG for virtually the same price as a loaded 4.6 Genesis. Hmmm toughie.

backy

LOL. No one is "defending a hood ornament." I'm pointing out the double standard that is applied to Hyundai compared to other luxury car makers.

As for ignoring your posts, I would love to, but you keep addressing posts directly to me, e.g. "go look up the Hofmesiter Kink on google." Which I did. You didn't like the facts I found.

No ulcers, though. I'm actually quite amused that the best shots folks can take at Hyundai's foray into the luxury market are: 1) they have the audacity to put a hood ornament on some of their cars; 2) they have "copycat" styling (yes, just like BMW); 3) their new luxury cars cost about the same as used luxury cars from other brands (shows how fast those German luxury cars depreciate); 4) they have grilles that are as inelegant as those from the best from Europe; and (my personal favorite) 5) they can't be luxury cars because they have a Hyundai badge on them. As Sir Charles would say: "That's trbl, just trbl!"

fintail

I dunno, seems to me a lot of ire gets churned up when the ornament or any kind of copycat styling is mocked.

Please, don't you dare try to turn anything back on me. You are now asked to post the sources of your ":facts". Please give me the name of the source that claims the Hofmeister kink was copied from a Kaiser. I won't hold my breath. And even if I was aiming at you, you are not obligated to reply.

H seems to know better than to offer than ornament here and if they dare try to sell it in Europe (where it will fail loudly), they will remove it there too. I still have no documentation about who BMW has copied, and I can't think of many vehicles in the NA market today that copies a car like the Genesis copies the E60. Superior alternatives can be annoying. A C-class is not "the best from Europe" although it probably does drive better than 95% of H products. The NA market isn't to embrace a 60K+ vehicle with the swoopy H on it and bland wanna-Lex styling anymore than it embraced a similarly placed VW.

backy

Sorry, I'm not "giving" you anything, ever. Whenever I have done that in the past, you've ignored or dismissed whatever I have found (e.g. "Oh, that's just Wikipedia"). Besides, you brought up the "Genesis copied the E60" long ago, and I've never seen any substantiation from you of that assertion. You have already established that a similarity in the C-pillar is inconsequential, and that's the only part of the Genesis that mimicks the E60 (and many other cars that have that kink). Don't ask (demand?) something you aren't ready and willing to give yourself.

As for whether the NA market will embrace the Equus... we'll have the answer to that pretty soon.

fintail

You've already given me more than I could have ever wanted :shades:

Original:

Imitator:

FYI I posted these long ago, and they certainly say enough for me. If the BMW didn't look like that, would the Genesis look like that? Photochop out the chrome window trim, and it is even more apparent. Really now...

Wikipedia...come on now. That blurb makes no sense based on it pointing to the "Dragon" model alone - Dragon was just an add-on package, no special C-pillar on that exact model. I can't give that source cred. I'd like to see some corroboration on that one, but as usual, I won't hold my breath.

At least it appears H had the sense to remove the comical hood ornament and tone down the Chinese Maybach knock off bling a bit, based on the banner ad here.

LASHAWN

This back and forth you two are doing is very comical. I find myself laughing at every comment you guys make, it's almost like listening to two high school kids on a debate team. C'mon lets put this issue you have to bed, it's obvious the cars look alike but how many cars on the road today look like one another. Every automaker copies something from their rival, it's the game they play and we as consumers fall prey to it. But hey, don't let me stop the bickering.

toye

IF most people didn't know the make of the two vehicles I bet they would pick the bottom one! It just looks cleaner!

fintail

The top one has more simple wheels and less chrome (cleaner to me)...but the bottom one doesn't have those stupid E60 light clusters...but it does have a weird grille...and it also has a more orderly interior. Touch choices.

H knew what they were doing with that exact styling, no coincidences.

smarty666

+1 :shades:

toye

Just enough chrome on the bottom to look more classy!

Note! the one on top has a key entry (you have to pay extra for keyless) where on the bottom it comes standard! :shades:

Wheels to me are 50/50 tie!

Interiors are so different so I also give it a 50/50 tie!