Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

backy

The numbers are most likely available only to CR subscribers... which I am not.

I think it is premature to say the Equus is an "LS clone" before there is much info available on the US version--and before any of us have sat in one or driven one.

There are many forms of "driving enjoyment". Some people like to be coddled in their luxury cars. There is nothing wrong about that. Just as there is nothing wrong with someone wanting a luxury car that handles like a sport sedan.

You were very clear that you have based your opinion of the Equus on other Hyundai designs--all of which are by definition older than the Equus', as the Equus is a new design. You also have told us you haven't seen or driven the Equus yet. So my comment stands, without hyperbole or drama.

fintail

If the claims of the LS being slowest were incorrect, I can't imagine someone not pointing that out. And none of that would matter if my personal opinion that the Equus is a LS competitor and not a significant threat to the Euros hadn't been made known.

I just don't see anything about the Equus that makes it more of a Euro competitor than a Lexus competitor. The styling is even much more LS-inspired than anything else.

Wafting along a straight road at 59mph in a barge isn't "driving" at all, to me.

Yes, part of my opinion is based on the design (which usually speaks volumes about a car), and other parts of my opinion are based on previous performances and current reviews. So, to state my opinion comes from only looking at a photo is indeed dramatic hyperbole made to incite emotion, and nothing more. Any more straw man red herring distractions?

LS competitor, LS competitor, LS competitor :P

fintail

Yeah, I'll believe that one when I see it.

Newest S80 was a flop that probably sold to the Hertz prestige fleet more than anyone else. Is Geely going to make an S-class ripoff, in typical Chinese thievery style? :shades:

backy

So, to state my opinion comes from only looking at a photo is indeed dramatic hyperbole made to incite emotion, and nothing more.

Yes, that would be hyperbole... had anyone said it. Claiming someone said it when they in fact did not is a form of hyperbole and distraction. Also your comment at the end could be seen as an attempt to incite emotion. Which it did--amusement.

If the Equus is viewed as a worthy competitor to the LS, deemed by CR the best car they have ever tested, but at a much lower price, that wouldn't be a bad thing for Hyundai's position in the luxury market, IMO. Go after three of the biggest car markets in the world with the first attempt (NA, China, ROK), expand from there. No need to go after Moscow in the winter, figuratively speaking. Wait until spring.

smarty666

they'll never look at dated and won't take the hit in resale value that your precious Buick's and Cadillac's of past will! :P

lemko

First of all, I keep my cars forever, so this mythical "resale value" means absolutely nothing to me. Automobiles are depreciating assets, not investments. Buying a car I don't like, (especially a ferociously ugly one like an Equus or recent Acuras) just because it's got supposedly better "resale value" is still throwing money away in my book.

Still, I can appreciate the W126 Mercedes as the high water mark of the marque. It came from a time when Mercedes could still build cars without compromise. I actually considered a 1989 560SEL around the time I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham. The MSRP of the Benz was $73,990 vs. around $30K for the Cadillac, so I'd have spent a heck of a lot more money up front. I still have my Cadillac and it still looks and runs like a champ! Heck, I really LOVE the old school style of my Caddy. The perfect car for me would be my '89's styling and today's performance and technology.

tjc78

The perfect car for me would be my '89's styling and today's performance and technology.

Heck, that is something I just said recently. My comment was give me an 89 Town Car with the powertrain from my Genesis or 06 Avalon. That would be sweet! Of course, don't change the smooth, floaty ride.

fintail

Here's what you said: "when it comes time to buy a car, do you just read about older designs from the same manufacturer and assume how your target car will drive based on that information? " - which is very dramatic and in fact based on no previous information. The thought itself was also not relevant to any previous discussion, and was nothing more than a distraction.

What rank is ROK compared to other markets, and why wouldn't the home maker sell at the home market? ROK was nothing to "go after", especially in an atmosphere there that is at the very least rabidly nationalistic.

Oh yeah "worthy competitor" was also never mentioed...just another competitor, as it won't be mentioned in the same breath as the Euros. Just as the Genesis continues to sell while the models the fanboys dream to consider to be competition are seeing huge sales.

All of this because continued drama because I said I'd rather buy a used S550 than a new Equus, and that the Equus is more a LS competitor than anything else. The fanboys are rabid and will not rest until I bow down before the swoopy H, must be a full moon (there's an attempt to incite emotion for you )

LS competitor, and wafting down a straight interstate at 59mph isn't "driving"...

fintail

With enough money, you could make an interesting Fleetwood resto rod. Probably wouldn't cost anything more than a new DTS or an Equus....

Drop the upcoming MB twin turbo V8 in a W126, along with some modern ICE, and it might be pretty cool too.

backy

All I can say is, if you don't remember what you post from one day to another, I can't help you. I already explained in a previous post what remarks from you were the basis for my question re how you select a car. I don't think I need to repeat myself, and I don't think that would be appreciated by the readers of this forum.

Yes, it is natural for Hyundai to "go after" its home market--and dominate it. Just as it's natural for the German auto companies to go after and dominate the European luxury market. Someday perhaps they will also dominate the other large automotive markets. But not today.

As for the rest of your post... talk about "distraction" and "drama"... :sick:

backy

Give you an '89 Town Car?? Now I know why you don't like how the Genesis rides! And I am mystified you would have bought one, since you like "smooth, floaty" rides. A Grand Marquis might have been just the ticket for you.

smarty666

lemko, I'm just bustin on you man! I know you like Caddy and Buicks and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm glad you found vehicles/brands you like and stick with it!

fintail

How I select a car is irrelevant, a distraction at best. Fanboys sure love to get personal.

H could make something all blinged out and unsightly...like the KDM Equus, and it would sell there, yes. While other products can sell anywhere without being de-crapified.

The German makers do dominate other lux markets, including the luxury market on this continent. Between the star and roundel, most of the room is occupied in every market and in the global lux market.. While the newbie will get to fight it out with the beige competition...like it or not.

Hmm...a local dealer has an 07 S550, pano, AMG wheels, parktronic, good colors, 30K miles, for 48K. Yeah, I'd take that and 10K in my pocket...

tjc78

Now I know why you don't like how the Genesis rides! And I am mystified you would have bought one, since you like "smooth, floaty" rides

I have mentioned before that I went into this purchase wanting something sportier after driving many soft floaty vehicles (Avalons, Town Cars, Grand Marquis, Olds 88). I looked at the TL, Max, G8 and Gen (would have considered G35 but too small). After having the car for a little over a year and 13K and I can tell I made a mistake, (an expensive one!).

Oh and BTW my 89 Town Car was probably my favorite car ever!

lemko

I had your Town Car's poorer cousin the 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS. I would refer to it as a "poor man's Town Car." My car was white with a dark blue half roof, turbine wheels, and dark blue leather interior. I have a 2005 Grand Marquis LS today, but I don't think it is nearly as nice a car the 1989 model was.

backy

I provided data earlier showing no German automaker dominates any luxury market except Europe. Would you like to provide the data that backs your statement that "The German makers do dominate other lux markets, including the luxury market on this continent. Between the star and roundel, most of the room is occupied in every market and in the global lux market."?

Re the S550 for $48k that you will take... I thought you said how you select a car is irrelevant, a distraction at best? :confuse:

jimbres

The perfect car for me would be my '89's styling and today's performance and technology.

Really? You prefer the styling of the '89 to that of the new CT-S?

IMO, the Caddies of the 80s were dull, uninspired & undesirable.

Haven't you said that you'd swap your '89 for a '69 in a heartbeat? Why not, then, wish for a '60s Caddy with today's technology? That would make more sense.

dean3927

Someone else thinks alike:

http://www.windingroad.com/articles/lists/list-top-ten-in-brand-motor-swap-dream- s/

sweendogy

after 3-4 years of recycling honda cars does acura belong in the lux line?? thoughts-- my thoughts are this- -acura recent styling, the fact that the sonata (in turbo form) would be a better car then the TSX, the TL/RL are both FWD vs genesis RWD(and coupe form) plus the sedan offers a V8 , and that you can get the korean with a hybrid another thing acura has yet to advance on..

stever

Did it ever belong? Did Infiniti? Did Volvo?

I don't think we ever came close to a definition of what a luxury car is in this forum.

tjc78

Cool article. Thanks for sharing.

smarty666

Currently, Acura still belongs in the luxury market. I have a 2008 TL, and while I don't care for the styling direction Acura has taken, you can't kick someone out of the group b/c you don't like their styling, not you or me.

The biggest problem is Acura seems to be slower in changing and adding technologies compared to the competition. Great example of this, they just are beginning to introduce 6spd auto's into their line-up (the MDX and ZDX being the only ones), while the rest are onto 7 and 8 spd autos. The rest will not have that for 1-2 years. It makes them look behind the times, but their reliability, quality, etc are top notch and sales are still better than Audi, Infiniti, Lincoln, and Volvo.

The lack of a V8 I don't think is that big a deal, considering that b/c of the CAFE standards and gas price uncertainty, even the lux makes that offer V8 have said they are going to be putting less focus and emphasis on V8s and more focus on hybrid, turbo I4's with good fuel economy, and V6s with high power/good fuel economy.

There is a lot more I could say about Acura but this thread is more about Hyundai and don't want to hijack it.

By the way, the TL and RL offer AWD options, does the Genesis? No I don't think so.

sweendogy

did it ever?? i would say so =they had a dollar supercar and huge sales.. now the have neither..

dont get your volvo infiniti response -- maybe you should lead this chat with a definition of what a lux car brand is --

backy

AWD is rumored for the next-gen Genesis.

With the demise of the RL, I do have to question whether Acura is a luxury brand. Is the TL a "luxury" car? To me, it's more like the Maxima and Lexus ES, both of which have been questioned here as to their luxury status. Once the RL is gone, they have nothing to compare to the likes of the GS, LS, M, 5 and 7 series, E and S Class, Genesis and Equus, etc. The most luxurious vehicle Acura will have then is the MDX. Instead of a luxury brand, I see Acura being an "upscale sport" brand. Which isn't a bad place to be, because it's a fairly unique niche to be in. I think Acura realizes they are attacking a niche market... witness the styling of their cars. Not the bland lines of most luxury brands. Kind of a love/hate thing. Acura is clearly not going for mass market appeal.

fintail

I have to agree with that market position for Acura. It is upscale sport...maybe a notch below Infiniti on the sport meter, and a little less higher end presence with the absence of the RL. The polarizing styling won't help matters either. The brand is kind of stagnating...without the MDX and RDX, it might be in bad shape. Kind of a shame, as the previous TL was nice design, and the RL seems like a good used deal anyway. Honda needs to get serious.

sweendogy

totally agree with the last 2 posts- and I think the consumer is also responding as acura sales have falling off a cliff over the past 3 years they sell a third of the number of Tl's they did in 06.

backy

So kinda back on track... some have criticized the bland styling of the Genesis sedan. And it is bland. But also inoffensive. Kind of like vanilla ice cream. Bland, but lots of folks like it and will buy it. Dairy Queen built a franchise on vanilla ice cream (ok, soft serve). When going for sales volume, inoffensive, conservative styling is the safest bet. BMW, MB, and Lexus, for 3, have done well with that strategy over the years.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the next-gen Genesis be a little more daring in the styling department, following Hyundai's "fluidic sculpture" theme. But probably won't go too extreme, ala the Sonata. Just more family resemblance. We see hints of that approach with the Equus--but that car is buttoned-down compared to the mass-market Hyundai sedans.

sweendogy

my 08 G35x is currently sitting next to a 2011 sonata,(parked in my building lot) the color of the cars pretty close, sure the infiniti has leather and over 100 more hp but I have to say the sonada has bigger tires (and better looking rims), the sonata has gps and a dash that looks very similar to the one in my car--- alll in all i am extreamly impressed by the way this car looks --its no accord/camry.

jimbres

fairly unique

NO! NO! NO! NO! "Unique" means "one of a kind" & never takes a modifier. Something is either unique or it is not. It is never "somewhat unique", "very unique", "fairly unique", etc. For a better explanation, please refer to page 62 of the 1979 printing of the Bible: Strunk & White's The Elements of Style.

Sorry for the outburst, but I've been fighting a rearguard action against the misuse of "unique" for years with, admittedly, little success. I've had better luck convincing people not to say "between you and I".

Now if you were to substitute "unusual" for "unique", I would agree wholeheartedly with your post.

backy

Wow. I think there's medication available for that.

Seriously... these are posts on an Internet forum, not doctoral theses. If you want, I can point you to some posts here in Town Hall that would make Messrs. Strunk and White turn over in their graves. You could have a field day with those.

My pet peeve is misuse of its/it's. I cringe whenever I see it, especially in newspapers. Journalists should know better. I give Internet forum posters a lot more leeway. If I can understand what the poster is trying to say, that is sufficient.

smarty666

The RL's demise? Didn't you know that was mistake on autoblogs part? The RL is not being discontinued here in the US. That was the Legend in Japan that is being discontinued and they made the mistake of saying the RL was going to be scrapped here but Acura came out with a statement saying it is not and will be remaining as the flagship.

fintail

The Genesis is very much like an E60 5er - the greenhouse, proportions, and silhouette are almost in "knock off" status, just as the first and second LS shamelessly copied the MB W126 and W140, respectively. Only some detail work at front and rear really sets it off, and just a little.

I can't think of many cars, especially H, that I would call "sculpture"...but corporate propaganda always is amusing.

The Sonata is too extreme for me, and unbalanced. The side profile is OK, but anything with the front end in view is spoiled. It's really overdone and heavy handed.

At least the Equus has apparently shed some of the ridiculous KDM bling...H must listen to us, the peanut gallery. Still a supersized Azera to me, but I guess that 6 window look might end up being the H trademark.

smarty666

as I was saying to backy, the RL is not being discontinued and is staying as the flagship.

Definitely agree with you guys about Acura in stagnation, well maybe not stagnation but more like they seem the slowest, and Honda for that matter, in changing or adding technologies to their line-up.

The problem with Acura is not really the vehicle themselves (well maybe the styling choices, especially on the current TL) but Acura management. They don't give clear/consistent statements or explanations of where they are taking the company. We were just having this discussion on another forum today. According to Acura, right now, there vehicles and place in the luxury market is odd b/c according to them, they are currently moving their sedan line-up up-market. Apparently we are not going to see the end result of their move until the next generation of each model. The RL is SUPPOSE to move up in size, features, technology as a true luxury flagship to compete with the 7-Series, S-Class, A8 and LS.

The next Gen TL is SUPPOSE to move up to the current RL's position and compete with the 5-Series, A6, M, GS, etc. That kind of make senses considering the current TL is kind of a in between vehicle of say the 3-Series and 5-Series.

The TSX will become larger and move upmarket in its next generation and a new entry-level model is suppose to be introduced.

Problem is, Acura doesn't come out and say all this. They just say shift up market or other generalized terms. The other thing is, in regards to their direction, they said they were going to reorganize and restructure to compete with BMW, MB, and Lexus as tier one, then they said they weren't going to do that and focus on smart luxury, then they said their focused on fuel economy and hybrid options for all their line-up. Its that kind of wishywashy behavior and statements that has us all, including me, scratching their heads when you look at their current line-up. I think by 2012 we are suppose to begin seeing their new direction, at least I hope. The RL is in bad need of serious help and I don't know how much longer they can wait.

I don't entirely buy all of yours and others below luxury connotation. Their vehicles, especially on the inside, quality, fit/finish, dealership experience most certainly puts them into the luxury level, at least more then any Hyundai dealership I've ever been to. I've had Infiniti, MB, and Cadillac along with my Acura and I've felt they've competed well with the fell of luxury and those other companies.

backy

The Genesis is very much like an E60 5er - the greenhouse, proportions, and silhouette are almost in "knock off" status, just as the first and second LS shamelessly copied the MB W126 and W140, respectively.

Lexus messed up in their attempts to copy the W126's and W140's greenhouses, then. Also they failed on copying the hood ornament detail. But Hyundai made up for that gaffe with the ROK-market Equus.

Lexus went conservative with the styling of their first luxury sedans. So did Hyundai. Thus those cars tend to look a lot like other conservatively-styled luxury sedans.

Bland-styled sedans tend to blur together, as they have few if any distinguishing lines. So although not all people like the Sonata's styling, or Acura's, they at least don't look like every other car.

backy

Well, obviously I didn't know! Thanks for clearing that up. So Acura is working to stay in the luxury market after all. I hope they realize what a mistake they made with styling on the latest models when the RL is redone. I thought the previous generation was a classy looking car. I don't know what is going on with Honda's design department the past few years, but there's some weird stuff coming from there.

stever

Bah, "fairly unique" was good enough for JD Salinger (link).

Time to revisit the Grammar and the Peeves that Pet It discussion perhaps. :shades:

Back to Hyundai, "it looks like somebody should start designing Hyundai-badged wheelbarrows to haul all the cash to the bank".

The Next Two Years in Hyundai Showrooms (AutoObserver)

toye

I think the those designers at Honda smoked a bad bag of weed while watching the movie JAWS 3.

fintail

Every proportion of the W126 vs the first LS is the same - Lexus really did little more than update an already 10 year old design, just as they'd mimic the W140 a decade later (and just as Genesis mimics the E60). The greenhouses are very similar on those old timers, save for the updated W126 clone losing the rear door soft pillar and gaining a pseudo Hofmeister upkick that Asian stylists especially seem to love to mimic.

Lexus has been conservative with all of their LS cars. The first two ape old MB, and the current one is beige on wheels. The S with its exaggerated wheelarches and odd rear corners like an old Ferrari in comparison. Conservative can be overdone as much as flamboyant.

H is lucky the Sonata apparently has enough merits to make it sell...styling won't be it. Edsels and Azteks didn't look like every other car as well, but they weren't the best cars either. It's a beauty queen compared to a TL or ZDX at any rate.

I see that rah-rah-rah article Steve posted now lists the Equus at 60K.

backy

The uplevel Equus will cross $60k, but the "base" model (if it can be called that--pretty strong equipment level on it) will be in the $50s.

I see a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" in what you are saying here. First, an automaker, whether it be Lexus or Hyundai et. al., is damned if they try to go conservative with their styling theme, because that makes their cars resemble other conservatively-styled luxury cars such as some from MB and BMW. And that apparently is a no-no in your book. Even though it might help with market acceptance in places where European luxury cars are popular--such as in Europe.

Second, Lexus, Hyundai et. al. are damned if they try to be more avant-garde with their styling. Now they are no longer "copycats", but the styling might turn off some buyers. OTOH, the styling might be a big attraction for buyers who don't want a box on wheels. From what I've been seeing on the Sonata forums, its styling is a selling point for most buyers. Some are turned off by it. But sales numbers for the Sonata are the strongest ever. So it seems lots of people like the "fluidic sculpture" look. Hyundai is betting on that, since the upcoming Elantra and Accent use the same theme.

fintail

How much difference will there be from the entry Equus to the highline? Will it be an engine difference, or some kind of trim? Where will prices really begin and end? I am honestly asking...I haven't seen the info yet, and it's easier to ask an expert than to wade through google clutter. It looks like they really might get into LS price territory...time will tell if that is a wise move. It's not the same as Lexus tried 20 years ago.

Conservative is not bad in and of itself, and neither is creative. Both can be ugly and pleasing. I just don't see the Sonata or the Equus being remembered in the year 2040 as being timeless design. Lexus has pretty much been a copycat in some cues or nearly entire designs, and sometimes when it tries on its own, things get a little ugly. It does have a few decent designs under its belt. And styling won't do much for market acceptance in Europe. Unless it drives properly and offers appropriate levels of features, along with a price that doesn't equal the established leaders, it will fail...as has the LS there - because it isn't great to drive, and isn't the value proposition it is here. I almost have to think Toyota is dumping some products on the NA market (as it did with the first LS) as the price differences are insane.

Would a person on a Sonata forum not be a H fan to begin with? Sure some people like it, but some don't...it's not some kind of masterpiece, just more interesting (and from some angles, odd) than the previous shamelessly dull model.

backy

Here's a couple of articles that have details on the trim levels. The first one was posted here a few days ago; I don't recall if the 2nd one was posted here before.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1007_2011_hyundai_equus_drive/index.h- - - - - tml

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/07/2011-hyundai-equus-trim-levels-reveal- - - - - ed.html

As was said in one of the articles, the Ultimate trim appears aimed at those who prefer to be driven around (i.e. in back seat) vs. driving for themselves.

It appears the Equus will list for about $10k less than the LS, based on available info, but it's not clear if the equipment levels will be comparable. Even the base level ("Ultimate") Equus has a lot of equipment.

Would a person on a Sonata forum not be a H fan to begin with?

Why don't you go take a look at the 2011 Sonata discussion here, and you can see for yourself? You'll see a mix of: people interested in the car, interested in buying the car, owning the car, and not at all a fan of the car, or Hyundai for that matter.

As for market acceptance in Europe... inoffensive styling is not sufficient, but it is essential. If someone is turned off from a car because of the styling, they'll never bother to drive the car. Hmm... that seems familiar somehow...

Kinda strange for someone who owns a MB sedan to call the Gen 4 Sonata's styling "dull", isn't it? I think it's quite attractive, in a "timeless" kind of way. But then, I own one.

fintail

Nice articles, thanks. A chauffeur driven Hyundai...amusing...Lexus hasn't even reached that point yet (but a normal LS might be nicer to ride in than drive in any kind of spirited manner).

Ah, you meant the Sonata discussion here, not a marque enthusiast site.

Controversial styling will still sell in Europe. Look at BMW...lots of people loathe their material of the past decade...but they sell like there's no tomorrow. That's because they drive nicely.

I think that Sonata is strongly influenced by the 03-07 Accord, but that's just me. I actually own 2 MB sedans...one is prehistoric and was funky even when new...the styling has a good base of admirers today. The more modern car is a decade old refresh of a 15 year old design...and the unwashed think it is new.

When H makes something that ages as well as a MB W126 or W124, wake me up and let me know

backy

A chauffeur driven Hyundai...amusing...Lexus hasn't even reached that point yet...

Sure it has. You haven't heard of the LS 460 L (and 600h L)?

http://apps.detnews.com/apps/autoreviews/index.php?id=35250

BMW sedans are as conservatively styled as they come. You have said a number of times that the Genesis looks like a knock-off of the 5 Series. The Genesis isn't exactly controversial in its styling, is it? Conservative can be ugly as well... didn't you say something like that a little while ago? If some of BMWs more recent designs haven't been fetching, it doesn't mean they aren't conservative.

Actually, the Gen 4 Sonata was influenced by the A6--Hyundai admitted to that. Some people see horizontal taillights and immediately think "Accord", as if no other cars have horizontal taillights.

So, take a look at this. Kinda boring, but clean and simple lines. I think it could pass today for a new car. But it was designed 20 years ago.

fintail

I've never seen or heard of anyone being driven around in a LS, LWB or not...but I suppose it has happened somewhere, especially as a corporate hire car or in a less developed area. BTW, there's a current model LWB LS in the parking garage of the building where I live now. No chauffeurs here.

The previous 5er (the one that inspired the Genesis) was not conservative when one examines the details. The loud lighting, the odd interior...it was a big shock from the E39. The latest model has toned it down a notch. The 6er is also not really conservative, its just inelegant and weird. The E38, thats conservative.

I don't buy the Audi influence of that Sonata. Other than the front end, rear end,and greenhouse being different, I guess they are similar. Maybe another "unnamed European design house" penned that one too.

That old Elantra is a nice inoffensive toaster, nicer than the one that replaced it This is a face only a mother could love

backy

The 6er was "inelegant and weird".. and defunct, yes? Yes, even those "big guys" blow it with their designs sometimes.

LS Ls being chauffeur-driven in "less developed" areas... that's a good one. Must be lots of folks who can afford chauffeur-driven LS Ls in those less developed areas. I'll bet the folks in the less-developed areas aren't riding in stretch LSes, but instead are being driven around in those low-priced used S Classers.

I'm not surprised you don't believe Hyundai's designers when they admit the A6 was the inspiration for the Gen 4 Sonata. You don't seem to believe any public statement any Hyundai representative makes.

fintail

6er is defunct? Thats news. It is slated for a new design for 2012, but as it is in its 7th model year now basically unchanged, I'd say it had a decent run. If that's "blown it", I'd hate to see what is needed to be successful. Ugly sold, maybe because of what's underneath.

I've never seen or heard of a chauffeur driving a LS, not something for NA or Europe - but I am sure in China or the less developed world where such hired help is more common, or for corporate use, it does exist. It's certainly more of a riders car.

H designers or their propagandist PR people can claim what they want...but can anyone show what elements of the old Sonata are like the A6? Maybe the round wheels or windows made out of glass?

lemko

Ah, c'mon! The Mercedes 600 Pullman Landaulet is the preferred choice of any good third world despot!

backy

Which means the 6 Series is not currently being produced.

I had no idea you were such a close follower of which cars are used around the world for drive-me-for-hire. What do you think the stretch "L" version of the LS was developed for?

There's a clear resemblance between the Sonata and A6 in profile, especially the roofline. If you can't see that, don't blame me, or Hyundai's designers.

fintail

It's not currently being produced? I didn't know that. BMW still lists it as a current model on their site. I know the low volume M6 has been put on hiatus, probably for powertrain evolution, but as far as I know the homely 6er is alive and well.

LWB cars are all about more status,showing off that you bought the top model. Very few cars aren't owner-driver these days, especially for private owners in the developed world.

I don't see any similarity once one looks at the greenhouse (other than that the roof is relatively flat and the front and back are sloped...woo hoo) not to mention the entire side, front,and rear details are different. Methinks H drivers want to pretend they are in a distant relation to a fancy German instead of a normal old Accord :shades:

sweendogy

i think your caught up in the "advance" advertising. The car company has not put out a clear winner since the acura integra GS-R/TypeR. I would read some car mags, consumer reports, and look at whats selling --they all tell you the same thing-- acura has yet to "advance" past being middle of the pack. I would look elsewhere for a entry level sedan--or you can wait until 2012 when they start to figure out a direction. While you wait you should run down to your hyundai dealership and check out the new line of cars-- good think about acura (as i learned by the ads) is they have great resale and everyone knows about the great lease rates.