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Phaeton
Equus
Equus reminds me of a Lexus inside, which warms my heart in no way.
and what do you think the whole 100k warranty is Nothing more than a 'ploy' to get the autobuyer to overlook Hyundai's checkered past and also one that has some very limited applicability. Effective to be sure but also something that Hyundai was forced into doing to sell its products.
The thought of a real honest to goodness luxury car buyer alongside those Accent buyers IS one of the reasons that a Hyundai branded product will not compete well in this segment. When a sales staff only knows how to sell price and often can only talk payment sizes, they tend to overlook what the luxury buyer really wants - something he or she can rightfully think is the best and also some degree of exclusivity. Price is a secondary consideration.
The whole idea of selling something because it is 'cheaper' and what makes the luxury car market work is a contradiction in terms.
The real problem? That big ole chrome 'VW' on the steering wheel hub and likewise where it was sold. So you have a perfectly legit mislabelled and mismarketed German car on one hand, and possibly the same for a Korean one on the other - and now we expect the result to be different?
It did work .. my folks, who have owned 3 Toyotas over the years, bought an '03 Sonata rather than a Camry LE as their last new car. If Hyundai didn't offer the warranty, I do believe they would have been forced to abandon the US market.
The thought of a real honest to goodness luxury car buyer alongside those Accent buyers IS one of the reasons that a Hyundai branded product will not compete well in this segment. When a sales staff only knows how to sell price and often can only talk payment sizes, they tend to overlook what the luxury buyer really wants - something he or she can rightfully think is the best and also some degree of exclusivity. Price is a secondary consideration.
+1 on that statement. If Hyundai only has plans to sell 2000 Equus' (Equi?) in the US, why even bother to certify it for sale here? As I said in an earlier post, I do believe that there will be those value conscious customers who will spend $50K for the Equus and think they got a bargain when compared to a $70-80K BMW or MB. However, when it comes time to trade or sell, all bets are off.
It's of national pride that Korea can compete with Japan that has dominated long dominated the auto industry in Asia and North America.
Again some people on this blog continue to underestimate Hyundai's rise in the automobile industry.
One auto mag has recently wrote that Hyundai should be no longer declared as an underdog but a leader in the industry. But of course that flies in the face of some of the thought process on this blog :shades:
Re the Equus looking like a Lexus... just because you don't like the styling of Lexus or Hyundai, doesn't mean those automakers can't be successful in the luxury market. Lexus outsells MB in the US, for example. There's room for cars for buyers with different tastes.
Lexus also barely exists in most the rest of the world, due in large part to boring or derivative styling and numb handling. It's also not exactly a runaway sales leader, either. But yes, buy what you want...that's the great thing about a mostly free society...you are free to buy what you want, and I am free to opine about it
I suppose you consider the LFA to be another Lexus that has boring, derivative styling and numb handling. Although I've heard presales in Europe are very hot for that Lexus. For people like you who need to take their everyday cars on the racetrack (or treat regular roads as racetracks?), maybe that's the Lexus for you.
LFA is being bought as investment by people with too much money rather than as an actual car. You don't think that more than a small few of these will actually see track time, or any kind of spirited driving at all, do you? I can assure you that 20 years after launch, few will have been driven any significant mileage. It's also a tiny amount of production compared to Toyota or even Lexus in general, and isn't worth real discussion when it comes to the context of the firm offering cars with even a hint of styling or performance. It's a (somewhat ugly) curiosity more than anything. And it's not really a normal presale kind of event...people have been invited to buy them rather than the other way around. You do know that Lexus, the higher models especially, have been a virtual flop on the Euro market, right? Or that the IS-F, the actual mass market performance entry by Lexus is still widely ignored pretty much everywhere? But I guess as H is trying to emulate Lexus with the homely Equus, we should bow down to both :lemon:
Most autos within 10 years will likely adopt the same technology that Hyundai announced first with the Equus in contacting your dealer and the application of the owners manuel on an I pad
You're just upset because your beloved MB didn't think of it first!
Perhaps they should have if they were on their game!!!
What is your source about that future technology? Cars can be bought today that have the manual in the ICE hard drive, and the technology for such ICE to contact a dealer database is not remarkable. I have seen nothing about "most" cars coming with ipads.
Looking at MB sales and quality trends over the past couple years, it looks like they are still on their game. Sorry, that bait doesn't work. I can admit the faults of "my beloved"...does the luxo-try from your beloved Korea have any faults?
You don't think that more than a small few of these will actually see track time, or any kind of spirited driving at all, do you?
No, I don't. Just as I think only a small few luxury car owners will ever test the handling limits of their cars... even of the "numbest" Lexus.
If you think the LFA is "ugly", I can see why you think the Equus is ugly... you apparently don't like the looks of any cars except those boxy European sedans. Well, to each his own.
Some people in some markets drive with a little more joie de vivre than others, which IMO explains a lot of the problems Lexus has had selling elsewhere than in the land of dull interstates and lowest common denominator driving standards...IIRC a couple Lexus models received CR's lowest handling scores...says enough for me.
Asian makes in general have been inconsistent at applying solid styling, and I am not alone in thinking so. I am surprised the Equus doesn't have light clusters that reach back to the A-pillar. I'm only half joking.
Who you callin boxy? :P
But I will take boxy over curvy for the sake of curvy, which often comes off imbalanced and awkward (like Sonata...ok from the side, odd from front angles...hmmm...directly influenced by the CLS from that boxy old German maker too)
The upcoming Hyundai Veloster will have a standard 6 or 8" in dash screen in all their vehicles to help handle new technologies. If I'm not mistaken GPS and backup camera will be standard as well. Prices will likely start under 18K.
Lets face it Hyundai used to be way behind in such tech offerings, but in the last generations of their vehicles they have become very aggressive!
It's most likely because the cost of the technology has come way down. Not too long ago, it would've been cost-prohibitive except for the most expensive marques.
Veloster...how many years til we'll actually see one?
Tech gets cheaper every day. I give H credit for encouraging the advancement of engine evolution more than anything else. H is aggressive indeed, the only way to survive when coming from behind. I have never denied the gigantic improvements the company has made.
While not on topic, since you asked, here you go...
The up-coming Hyundai Veloster Coupe, which is scheduled to make its official premiere at the 2010 Paris Auto Show in October (officially starts on October 2nd)...
The long-awaited entry-level Hyundai coupe is set to go on sale in Europe early next year, while sales in the US market are expected to commence in the second half of 2011.
What does "curvy for the sake of curvy" mean, anyway? And is it similar to the concept of "boxy for the sake of boxy"? :confuse:
Odd you should mention CR. Since you respect the opinion of CR, note they rate the LS as the "best car overall". That's the best of all cars they have ever tested. There's only one European luxury car, the 911 Carrera S, in CR's top 10. But the Genesis 3.8 is in their top 10.
Curvy for the sake of curvy...dramatic and somewhat inconsistent styling made to attract attention. Somewhat like the Sonata (which tries to ape that CLS) Boxy for the sake of boxy...Volvo.
How does that leviathan coupe resemble the Equus or Genesis or any other H, when it predates any by several years? If there was a resemblance other than having windows and doors, it's in the other direction. The Genesis resembles the E60 5er more than anything else. The Equus is very Lexus LS to my eyes.
CR also lists the S as "recommended", something I wouldn't have believed even 5 years ago. More than one brand is improving. 911 is a sports car, doesn't compete with big boat sedans. And I don't embrace CR, but when even they think Lexus makes poor handling cars and the LS performed very poorly in their performance tests, it screams volumes.
Well, that pretty much describes the photo of the "4 door coupe" you posted. Dramatic and inconsistent styling compared to other MB sedans. At least Hyundai's styling for their sedans is developing a family similarity.
You don't embrace CR except to point out when they agree with you. If they don't agree with you, then they are to be ignored. I get it. But since the 911 isn't a luxury car, it means there are NO European luxury cars in CR's top ten. But there is a Hyundai, plus some other Asian luxury cars.
BTW... there is absolutely no way a car can perform "very poorly" in CR's performance tests, as you assert, and score a near-perfect 99 on the road test.
The Equus is very Lexus LS to my eyes.
I don't doubt that... despite huge styling differences between the two cars.
CR doesn't agree with me and I have no love for it, but when that purveyor of dependability at all costs lists an insanely complex German car as "recommended", it says the car is likely much improved on the drama front.
"BTW", the LS was the slowest performer in CR accident avoidance tests. That says a lot about performance and handling. CR is not a great guide when it comes to spirited driving, but when even an easy to drive car is slowest, it's not a good handler. CR can help to guess if a stove or refrigerator or car will run without breaking down, but not much when it comes to actually driving a car. This might be a big part of why the car is so much more well received in NA than elsewhere, as people drive at a lower level in NA.
Equus interior especially is Lexus like, along with the silhouette of the entire car, bumper-intake details, lower trim details, really the greatest difference is the little rear quarter window. Much more similar than the Equus compared to the Germans.
speaking as somebody who has actually worked over there alongside the Koreans - take it from me it's a bit more than 'pride' - more like a patriotic obsession. We Americans could learn much. And also the reason why the Korean government has subsidized a number of industries over the years deemed 'worthy' of competing in as well as its rapid rise economically.
That said, though, the Koreans are a remarkable people with a work ethic that has long since left this country and yes, they have some historical precedent to be targeting Japan in many of their endeavors.
Yes, I think it does show MB is improving on the reliability front--meaning in fact it is lower on the drama scale.
Note you contradicted yourself. First you assert that the LS was the slowest performer in CR accident avoidance tests (more on that later)--and thus it says a lot about performance and handling. Then you say CR can't help you when it comes to actually driving a car. Now, doesn't an accident avoidance maneuver involve driving the car? :confuse:
As for the LS being slowest in accident avoidance--if the LS is so bad in accident avoidance, why did CR rate it above average there? Same as the A8, E Class, 5 Series, and XF?
Equus interior especially is Lexus like,...
Since the LS' interior is universally praised for quality and comfort, that is actually a good thing, no? As for side profile, I think the new M is much more like the Equus there than the Equus is like the LS. Other LS and Equus differences are grille (LS is horizontal, Equus vertical), headlamps (Equus' are larger and sweep higher), taillamps, and as you noted the greenhouse. Quite a few differences I think.
perhaps because of Toyota's/Lexus' ultraconservative approach to those silly electronic 'nannies' that are now infecting our automobiles in epidemic proportion???
While the Germans (esp. BMW) seemingly have more understanding of what a real driver wants and therefore designs these 'safety' system interventions accordingly???
Which, in the process of getting back on back, begs the question of where somebody who would like to make 'luxury' cars someday needs to focus their efforts - the softer Lexus type approach shown to be preferred by most Americans or trying to hit that delicate ride/handling balance which is so very difficult to do?
That is a very important question. I think that part of the reason that Lexus (and Toyota for that matter) has done so well here is the fact that they offer a smooth plush ride in most of their vehicles. I haven't checked #s to be sure, however, I would be willing to bet that the ES and LS outsell the more performance oriented IS and GS.
Hyundai seems to mimic alot of what Toyota has done in the past and their vehicles are on the soft side. The Genesis is a "tweener" Not quite BMW firm, nor Lexus soft. This causes some interesting ride characteristics, but thats another topic. The Equus appears as if its going to be soft like an LS.
If I was in charge I would offer vehicles with the old school Caddy/Buick/Lincoln ride and then offer "sport' or "touring" models to satisfy the crowd that want a more engaging driving experience. One size doesn't fit all, especially in this segment
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Accident avoidance isn't enthusiast driving.
Are you denying the LS was the slowest in accident avoidance? Are you denying that the LS has long been a bland and limp performer? The subjective ratings in that stat from CR are meaningless compared to the result...the car long considered to be an uninvolving drive was slowest.
Regarding the interior, I am using the context of design, and you know that. Yes, the materials are nice and it is as comfortable as can be, so long as you don't turn the wheel. The Equus in the banner ad on the right side of this page has a horizontally slatted grille, like a LS. The car still retains a very similar front bumper and side trim treatment to the Lexus, along with a remarkably similar silhouette.
You just can't get over that I won't consider the Equus an equal to the Euro competition, can you?
Adjustable suspensions can solve a lot of problems...but there should be something other than variations of "floating".
No, but I haven't seen any evidence presented that it was the slowest vehicle in CR's accident avoidance tests. What I do see is the LS ranked by CR as above average in accidence avoidance, while they ranked many other vehicles average or below average. Can you provide us with the link stating that the LS was the slowest vehicle CR tested in accident avoidance?
As for the LS being a bland and limp performer... general expert opinion is that the LS is an exceptional luxury cruiser, smooth and comfortable, as many people prefer their luxury cars to be. Just because you don't like how the LS drives doesn't mean it isn't a good choice for others--and judging from its market acceptance over the years, it is successful.
This track of, "I don't like how a car looks or drives, hence it is crap" doesn't have anything to do with the larger picture whether Hyundai (or any other automaker) has room in the luxury marketplace. There's a variety of tastes for cars out there, and room for different kinds of luxury cars. So I really don't care whether or not you consider the Equus an equal to European competition. It's really about what the market in general will say about that, that matters.
But for someone who has never even seen an Equus up close, let alone driven one, you certainly have well-formed opinions about its quality, interior design and materials (and comfort), and how it drives.
Well, competition for the S Class at least. :shades:
Volvo's New Chairman Wants to Build S-Class Rival (Inside Line)
The owner's manual for this one comes on a Droid.
The LS is successful in one market anyway. Maybe H wants the Equus to just be a US market car.
If I don't like how a car looks or drives, or even worse, looks and drives, I will call it crap. Aesthetics and driving quality are why I like cars. I'm not looking for a toaster, even a fancy stainless steel 8 slice model that can toast both bagels and flatbread. If that is irksome, one should take a nickel's worth of free advice and skip my posts. It's really the only recourse one has. There's a butt for every seat, but one can choose where their butt sits
I never said a word about Equus quality, did I? Either link that insinuation or refrain from such a statement. Interior and exterior design can be gauged from the multitude of pics on these here interwebs, and how it drives can logically be assumed from previous products and reviews now that the LS competitor is starting to come round.
Not a competitor for the big Germans...
German styling has been 95% conservative for 80 years and this won't change. I do agree the new (F10) 5er is light years ahead of the previous model.
Nobody can hold a candle to Audi design, but the more staid competition still seem to age better in terms of mechanicals.
It's all about short term profits.
I personally have found BMW and MB to have blah exterior styling and thus have little to no interest for me. The new 5 series is beginning to change that though for me a little with BMW.
MB should really rethink though copying Audi with the LED things. They are not doing a good job with them and they look like they were put on as an after thought.
I like traditional timeless design that ages well. A 30 year old S-class looks better today than almost anything today will look in 30 years.
LED bling lighting is a fad that will pass...and in time it will look very dated, and point to the 2010 era. Those MB light bars are just that, an afterthought...C-class is getting them next year too IIRC.
Nothing today from any of the companies ages like anything from those times of 20-30 years ago b/c cars are not made anything like they were back then. Too much plastic and fake crap and its really a sad state of where the car companies have gone. There is more gadgets today like you said and that certainly could have led to the more focus/money on technology and less money on materials/parts, etc. Problem is, despite the better materials and build all those years ago, we can't live in the past, have to accept the way things are going with car construction and live with it.
by the way, traditional and timeless is an opinion as well I'm just busting on ya! :P I've felt the boring/conservative styles of BMW and MB have done nothing to warrant me driving around in one since I won't stand out from a crowd, despite being able to afford some of their models. I've never found the need to spend that extra money to drive around in a bland/boring style just to say I drive a MB or BMW, simply for the name recognition. Maybe in time that will change, BMW is certainly beginning to peak my interest finally, but MB no, at least not in the sedan or crossover departments as of right now, but that can always change. Plus, MB is going the direction of real low ground clearance, which for someone like me with a bad back problem, that is not a good thing for getting in and out of the car and even if I liked their styling, I would not be able to get one b/c of it. I'd be in a Audi in a second b/c their designs kick BMW and MB butts, but their reliability still seems to be a 50/50 chance of either getting a vehicle that is either problem free or problem littered and I'm not ready to gamble like I'm in a casino with that kind of money.
Def agree with you about the LED DRL fad. Probably will be popular and all over the place for the next 10-15 years and then will go the way of the dinosaurs.
Peace out for the Night!
Here's a link for you, right from Inside Line:
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2009/12/il-track-tested-2010-lexus-ls-4- 60-sport-vs-2009-bmw-750i-sport.html
Handling comments (for the LS): Skid pad: Remarkable balance and feedback at the limit. You can easily drive with throttle despite low limits and relatively slow responses. Slalom: Surprisingly, turning stability control off actually means "off." Not much to be gained in doing so in slalom, however. Rear loses grip first, and this is a big car to slide at 65 mph.
Since the Equus is already sold in the ROK and China, and maybe other countries, and will be sold in several others in the near future including the US and Canada, I think it's clear the Equus will NOT be just a US market car.
You of course have every right to choose where your butt sits. But it doesn't mean all the world's butts will follow you.
Tell us, though... when it comes time to buy a car, do you just read about older designs from the same manufacturer and assume how your target car will drive based on that information? Or would you take that car you might buy for a drive?
Not everything was great in the past. Most cars required more intensive servicing, and many highline cars were more expensive relative to incomes than today. The materials of a super durable late 80s S-class are extremely austere compared to modern cars - they just hold up better. I can deal with the way things are today, you have to make what sells, and some tech can be fun.
I like cars that don't look completely passe after 10 years. Many observers will agree that many BMW, Audi, and MB designs have aged very well, better than the competition. If you need ground clearance, you're going to want a crossover of some kind anyway. MB doesn't make any that really warm my heart.
Good luck with your FX...maybe skip this new "catfish" model and wait/hope for a more handsome descendent. :shades:
That InsideLine blurb about LS roadholding doesn't sound very impressive.
ROK and China...yeah, world leaders in driving enjoyment. I am sure the LS sells well there too.
And just because a manufacturer thinks it can compare with any given group just because a hype machine says so doesn't mean the market will agree. This has been proven in the past.
Where did I say I "just" read about older designs and do nothing else, as you imply? Please, less hyperbole and drama.