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Comments
What's paper?
Mini whatever class, if it sells some copies, it's going to be taking sales away from other brands.
Then the question becomes - are they making S-Class conquest sales or hurting Avalon sales?
As for folks who think the grille is ugly--I think you're wasting some valuable use of your Giant Nit-Pick. Much better used on Acura--ANY Acura. :P
******
Uhh, so why didn't the M outsell the more expensive E Class and 5 Series, esp. during the height of the recession?
The new E Class has been quite the success for Mercedes; otoh, sales of the new M have, thus far, been disappointing (despite already heavy discounting by Infiniti) and there's a good chance that the Genesis, going into its 3rd year, will outsell the new M this year.
I've heard that discounts are do deep on the M, that prices actually overlap Genesis. Man, that's a steal if it's true!
Are you speaking of the new redesigned Taurus? A little early to say it bombed. I am already seeing more of those than the Genesis here in southern NJ.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
One problem with the new Taurus is that the name is associated, for a long period of time, with a reasonably-priced mid-sized family sedan. It's as if Honda were to bulk up the Accord and charge $5-10k more for it, and have folks expect that it would sell in the same numbers as before. Not really a good parallel to the Genesis.
I don't mind it. Its head and shoulders above the previous version, and the 500 before it.
Not really a good parallel to the Genesis.
I know we disagree on this, however, I believe the Taurus to be a competitor to the Genesis due to them both being large cars in a similar price range. Having said that, the events leading to the current Taurus are quite different than the Genesis. Ford is trying to bring back the name of a vehicle that was a "game changer" 25 years ago and Hyundai introduced the Genesis to be a "game changer"
IMO neither is setting the world on fire.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
If the Genesis isn't a "game changer", I don't know what is. Its impact far exceeds the sales numbers. It's caused many buyers (you, included?) to look at Hyundai in a new light. That makes it a game-changer.
If Hyundai's sole purpose for the Genesis and now Equus was brand recognition, I think it was an awful big waste of resources.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
If Hyundai introduced the Genesis first and foremost to be a game-changer, and you agree it has done that, what does it matter if it's not outselling some other cars such as the ES and the 5 Series? It has accomplished its mission. And in the process has sales numbers comparable to if not better than competitors such as the M and GS (yes, yes, I know YOU don't see these cars as competitors, but many others do).
Also, the US is not the only market for the Genesis. So Hyundai has been able to uplift its brand with the Genesis while selling a good number of $30-40k cars.
I have yet to see a Genesis coupe on the road, but I do see Genesis sedans. I did see a sales breakdown on the Genesis awhile back and it showed about a 2:1 ratio of sedans to coupes. I think Hyundai should break these numbers out--but then again, they are using the same practice followed by other automakers such as Toyota, Honda, and Nissan.
what does it matter if it's not outselling some other cars such as the ES and the 5 Series?
Maybe, none. Its just my opinion based on sales #s its not doing that great. I would think at its price point it could at least come close to ES's sales #s. Perhaps, one thing that holds it back is the fact that its RWD only and in some parts of the country folks won't buy a RWD vehicles due to harsh winters?
I think Hyundai should break these numbers out
It would be nice. Like I said I see more coupes than sedans here but that could be purely coincidence. In any event I don't think I even see more than 2-3 coupes a week and maybe one sedan (aside from the one in driveway of course
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Although it hasn't helped the M all that much, has it?
I think the latest redesign of the M is hurting it enough. I haven't seen it in person, but I am not a fan. I loved the looks of the prior generation... just a little above the budget (at least new). I have never driven or ridden in one though. I may not even like the ride, as I am sure the suspension is probably firmer than the Genesis.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Not sure what you mean by this. I live in a suburb of NYC, & I see a great many Infiniti Ms, 90+ percent of which are the AWD variants.
So I don't see a big advantage for the M in sales because it offers AWD, compared to a car like the Genesis that is RWD only. Or are you saying that if the M didn't offer AWD, its sales would have been about 90% less than they were? Or that if the Genesis offered AWD, you think its sales (for the sedan) would nearly double?
If the sales numbers were broken down by region, you would see an entirely different picture. Sunbelt buyers almost invariably pick RWD - I've noticed this when I'm in Florida - but given a choice between AWD & RWD, snowbelt buyers will go for AWD 19 times out of 20. This applies not only to Infiniti, but also to BMW, Mercedes, the Caddy CTS & those Lexus models that offer AWD.
Keep in mind that I genuinely like the Genesis. There's no question in my mind that it's as much a luxury car as anything else in its price range. But that doesn't change the fact that I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of Genesis sedans that I've seen in my import-friendly NYC suburb since it was introduced last year. The only sensible explanation that I can come up with is Hyundai's failure to offer AWD.
Do you have a better explanation?
What I am trying to say is, AWD is not a panacea to sales. The M didn't do very well in recent years sales-wise with it, and isn't doing any better than the RWD Genesis now, even with an all-new design. So I think there's many other factors that come into play. I think Hyundai would sell more Genesis sedans if it offered AWD, at a reasonable uptick in price. How many more, I have no idea. But if the pattern is anything like what you are seeing with the M, then we might see a 90% bump in sales for the Genesis in places like NYC when it offers AWD. You think?
So it stands to reason that any manufacturer that wants to play in this market segment has to offer AWD from day 1 or risk being a sales footnote in the Northern states. I don't think that's a terribly controversial statement, nor should it be taken as a knock against the basic goodness of the Genesis itself. The only people who should be offended are Hyundai's marketing mavens, who should have anticipated this. The trend toward AWD has been obvious since the late 90s, when Mercedes started rolling out 4-matic versions of its sedans, & the early 2000s, when BMW introduced the 1st xDrive 3 series.
How did you know they didn't? We've discussed before how AWD adds complexity to a car (and cost). The Genesis was already a new design with an all-new V8. Maybe Hyundai's marketing mavens figured it was more important for the first-gen Genesis to be rock-solid mechanically, to help maintain Hyundai's improved reliability reputation, than to offer AWD from Day One. What if this first-ever (in the US) Hyundai luxury car had serious reliability problems? How would that have affected the primary goal of the Genesis--to raise the perception of the Hyundai brand? I don't think it would have helped at all, do you? Also consider Hyundai has very little (if any?) experience in AWD sedans. Maybe the first-gen Genesis wasn't the best time for Hyundai to take the first crack at it?
Funny though how the trend towards AWD has been so obvious since the late '90s, yet when Infiniti released the first M it didn't have AWD. That came later. There's much said here about how Hyundai should be following the lead of the J3 in how they approached the luxury market. But not in this case, eh? I also see posts re Hyundai moving too fast. But not in this case, eh? You don't think they moved fast enough.
Given that AWD is no longer bleeding-edge technology (& hasn't been for years), why do you think that offering it would have been risky from a reliability perspective?
Funny though how the trend towards AWD has been so obvious since the late '90s, yet when Infiniti released the first M it didn't have AWD. That came later.
Not much later. The 1st generation M45, introduced to the North American market in 2003, didn't have it (not surprising - it was just a rebadged Nissan Gloria that was rushed to market to give Infiniti an answer to the Lexus GS), but the 2nd generation M35, introduced just 2 years later, did offer optional AWD - fully 3 years before Hyundai rolled out the Genesis.
Unfortunately, it looks as if prospective Genesis buyers will have to wait for more than 2 years for AWD. According to Hyundai's U.S. head honcho, AWD will be an option on the 2nd generation Genesis, which we won't see until 2014. (Sorry, but I can't find a link for this.)
jimbres,
I have a feeling that Hyundai didn't have the time, resources, or confidence to make their 1st Genesis offering AWD. When you think about all the new cars rolling out the past 3 years, I bet their design team was stretched thin. Speeding up engineering is more than adding new wings on the building and hiring more engineers. Things have to grow slowly to be controllable. Even a top notch manager can lose control of a growing team of eager engineers. Sure, I agree with you they they lost sales in the snow belt. But I also agree with their cautious approach. I'm almost positive I read somewhere (possibly from Krafcik) that AWD was in the works.
Good point, Bobad. I must admit that I hadn't thought of it that way.
:confuse: Why do you think the next-gen Genesis won't be out until six years after the original debuted (2008 to 2014 = 6 years)? That is a long time between generations, given how fast Hyundai is updating other models. I have a feeling we'll see the next-generation Genesis before 2014.
I hope that you're right about this...
Oops, I didn't say that :shades:
gen coupe is still very very rare. i live in chicago, i hardly ever see the coupe.
IMO, Hyundai needs to identify the market it wishes to target with the Coupe.
As it is it is nothing more than a credible attempt at a rice rocket and NOT anything that should appeal to the hard core pony car enthusiast that really demands the gutteral sensations of the big ole V8.
If they really want to target the rice rockets like Acura has done so well over the years than they probably need to upgrade it, get rid of the Hyundai nameplate, raise its price a bit, and lastly of course sell it at those now mythical 'Genesis' dealers.
More properly it would seem logical to go ahead and put that big V8 in the Coupe given that the Hyundai name and the Hyundai dealers are about on the same level as Chevy and Ford dealers and at comparable prices. The pony car market is not insignificant and I imagine that the pony car buyer is going to be influenced more by raw performance (and content) than he would be by something like brand rep.
This, of course, then leaves the Genesis 'brand' dedicated to more luxurious ( and pricier) vehicles - which is likely best if any room is to ever be found....
That early Genesis prototype thing is hilarious looking, like the love child of a BMW and a Subaru. I'd like to know which "European design house" crafted that headache.
Equus is still awkward at best. That being said, it will sell a few...even the Phaeton sold a few. A few outside of the home market and the US, maybe not so likely.
" We'll come and pick up the Equus at your home or business and leave behind a service loan car for you to drive while we perform the work. And when we're done, we'll deliver your Equus back to you. That's pretty special, and unique in our industry. We call it Service Valet. With Equus, it's not about putting you at the front of the service line, it's about eliminating the line entirely and demonstrating extraordinary respect for your time."
No service department could ever compete with my own home.
The last place on Earth I want to go is a car dealership, regardless of what it looks like. Ideally, I want to go there once every 6-8 years, just to buy the car. When I must go, the ideal duration for my visit would be under a minute. The dealership coming to me is even better, but ideally, I never want to see them again after my purchase.
My dealership is 55 miles away, so it would be interesting to know if they would shuttle me a loaner that far.
Going to my local Hyundai dealer for service is not a big deal, as they are only a few miles from my home, and I can drop my car off on my way home from the gym and either wait for it (surf the Web, look at the new cars etc.) while the work is done, e.g. oil change, or they'll drive me home. They have offered to pick me up at my home to get my car, but it's no problem having my wife or son take me over there, it's five minutes away. But just think... this is the kind of service the dealer provides for ANY car they service, including my old Elantra and my Sonata (taking it in for an oil change next week, btw). So why do I care if the dealership is in a rather old building and the waiting area and show floor are kinda small? Well... I don't. I do get good service there, and that is what is important to me.
The same thought immediately occurred to me. There's a remarkable similarity between Krafcik's comments and some of our own. I think Krafcik has been reading this thread, and taking notes!
Regards:
Oldengineer
I know, I know, you want links, or it didn't happen... try "Equus loaner Genesis" in google and see what you get.
But you're right, it's most likely just a dealer by dealer thing.
But of course, this doesn't mean much because I can't really answer your question backy if all Lexus and Cadillac dealerships do this, but all my local ones do so ???
When it comes to this loaner plan, I can believe it...I have to believe individual dealers have done this kind of thing in the past, and for those who like to have their butts kissed, it will be an attraction. Unless of course, that loaner car is a roll up window Accent. I wonder what the sales costs will be for the Equus, and if it will be sold at a loss to attract clients as was the original LS. Although with the Equus, maybe the design costs are already absorbed.
But thanks for being offended that someone dares to question the swoopy H anyway
... and for those who like to have their butts kissed, it will be an attraction.
But isn't that exactly the position raised by some here, that Hyundai doesn't "kiss enough butts" currently, with fancy dealerships, service folks in white lab coats, cappuccino machines in the waiting area etc., to be a success in the luxury market? So they are taking what Mr. Obama would call an "unprecedented" step of offering pick-up-and-deliver service with a free luxury loaner for the Equus, for all dealerships.
Since the Equus is based on the Genesis platform, the engineering costs shouldn't be too big. Maybe the marketing costs will be higher than the engineering costs.