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lol, you're not misreading words here from what your subconscious is telling you I hope.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
They also wonder in their summary if buyers will see Hyundai as a luxury brand in the same way as Lexus. So C/D at least has no problem differentiating a luxury car from a luxury brand.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/29/autos/auto_leader_forecasts.fortune/index.htm
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:P
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I have to wonder where the sales are coming from...I know E class sales are way up, 5er sales will be likewise, but the Genesis too continues to sell (although apparently unknown in coupe vs sedan)...are Genesis sales really conquests from the Germans as some want to believe, or perhaps lesser H owners upgrading, conquests from the Japanese, or?
That is my vote. I know people on here don't agree with me, but I stand ground saying that many Genesis owners are former Maxima, Avalon, 300 etc. I am sure you have a few TL, ES, & G drivers defecting, but there are a vast majority of people that shop by price point. That alone put the Genesis in competition with the above rather than 5s and Es.
One thing I would like a stat on is how many Gen owners are first time Hyundai owners. I would be willing to bet quite a few.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Call me weird, but in my book that is the definition of a "success". A "failure" would be the opposite: that the Genesis did not meet expectations.
There is a lot of consternation here about where Genesis sales are coming from. I wonder why. I don't see the same concern over who, for example, are grabbing up MBs, BMWs, Infinitis, and Lexii at lease rates that most anyone with a good job can afford. Are these conquests from other luxury brands, or maybe just folks moving up from a Honda or Nissan or Toyota--or Ford or Chevy for that matter? Where's the figures on that? Or, do you care? It doesn't seem like you do.
You're a H first timer, right? I will admit its the best way H could introduce people to the brand.
I'm willing to wager it's a bigger jump to a leased 5er or E than to a loaded Genesis. The Genesis is supposed to compete with those and not lesser cars, right? I'm not here to look for figures. We heard a lot of exciting stories about highline conquests, but the highlines too are gaining sales - in a down economy - and they are brands which historically have good owner loyalty. Maybe if you cared, you'd go and buy a Genesis
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=97562
The Genesis is a good way to introduce people to the brand. But so are the Sonata, Tucson, Elantra, Gen coupe... all of which allow Hyundai to "grab" someone earlier in life (and lower in income) than brands like MB, BMW, Lexus, and Porsche.
Earlier, you said the Genesis has done as well as anyone had hoped. That goes far beyond "finishing a task." We might expect to sell, say, 12,000 a year, and that is deemed acceptable should we accomplish it--we "make quota" in sales terms. We hope to sell many more, say, 15,000 a year or more.
Maybe you could research your question on sales predictions and let us know what you find? Google is waiting for you eagerly.
I'm not here to look for figures.
Oh, OK. Never mind then.
BTW, Hyundai's owner loyalty is pretty darn good also... #1 according to KBB:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2010/03/15/469235.html
Maybe if you cared about this discussion at all, other than to take shots at something you have no personal experience with, you would at least DRIVE a Genesis.
The highlines have existed as an aspirational object to attain once one has enough income, and have done very well at that. Reeling people in earlier is a strategy which appears good...but isn't proven.
I am not the one who has claimed that the Genesis is a highline conquest machine, it is not my line of work to find sales data. I do notice the higher priced competition, the ones (5er, E) the fanclub will claim are true competition, are extremely successful right now. It makes me wonder where the customers are really coming from. Is it taking shots, or is being the devil's advocate really evil?
Why drive one, and waste a salesman's time and false hopes, or obtain automotive debt? I will just say this...the rear tires on my E55 are pretty much worn out now due to my driving style, and the fronts aren't far behind. I haven't seen anything hinting the Genesis is made for that treatment :shades:
You have very, very low hopes, I see. My hopes are higher than what I would reasonably expect to happen, what I would consider "acceptable."
The GS and M, for two, aren't doing all that great sales-wise. The M is up from its pitiful sales from last year, but still pretty low volume. Neither are the TL and RL doing well. Maybe the Genesis is taking sales from the likes of them.
It's not wasting a salesperson's time if you are honest with him/her, explain your situation, i.e. that you aren't looking to buy a car right now, but you've read a lot about the Genesis and are curious how it compares to the E Class, and ask if he/she would mind if you take it for a test drive. They can always say "no" if they think it's a waste of their time. You might try going in during the middle of the week vs. a Saturday so the dealership isn't as busy. Worth a try... if you have any thoughts of being objective about this discussion. Otherwise, I guess you can just keep taking shots at non-existent hood ornaments and such.
Yes, because you could have bought a new Porsche or MB. Instead you bought something else. Porsche or MB lost you as a customer. That's a conquest, as surely as if you traded in something like a 2007 5 Series or E Class.
Forget about Fri and Sat, that is there busiest time of the week, considering of the 6 days they are open, those two are the most in which people have off from work and go in. I try to avoid stealerships on Sat's, whether I'm buying, looking, or just in for service mainly b/c they are just a chaotic scene with people.
Yes I am. I looked at the Azera back in 06 but at that time I preferred the Avalon.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The GS and M are also different from the 5er and E...the latter pair costing 5 figures more. The RL hasn't done well for years, and the TL...styling might be doing it in. So the Genesis is made to compare with the Japanese and not so much the Germans? I can buy that, you know. It's what I am thinking too.
I have no doubt I'd be able to test drive it...by lying if anything...it's amazing what car dealers will offer you when you pull up in a shiny MB :shades: Maybe if I have some time to kill sometime, I'll do that, just for you.
I didn't know this discussion had to be completely "objective"...a person is free to ignore my posts if they are objectionable. Cars are a very subjective topic. And regarding the hood ornaments...the fact that they do exist says enough for me.
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LOL!
So what will the Azera (esp. the next-gen Azera) compete against, if not the Avalons, Maximas, Tauruses (as well as the upcoming Kia Cadenza)?
According to your premise - it would be the Camry, Altima, Fusion, etc. - w/ the Sonata competing against the likes of the Corolla.
Now, do some people shop based on price - sure, but things like FWD vs RWD, interior room, etc. almost always come into consideration.
Remember, for the first couple of years, the MSRP on the Lexus LS400 was $35K - that made it closer in price to a fully-loaded C Class rather than a fully loaded E Class (much less the S Class); but according to 'ol captain, the LS400 should be compared to compact, entry level luxury sedans rather than full-size, flagship sedans like the S Class and 7 Series.
What's next - comparing sales of the Equus to the CC, instead of the Phaeton and other full-size F segment sedans?
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And not so long ago, the Cooper was none of those things (btw, Hyundai beats Mini in reliability, and the Genesis coupe, w/ the updated powerplants, would beat the Cooper S in terms of performance more so than it already does).
On a Genesis board, quite a few owners traded in BMW (esp. the 5er).
One person just traded in a 2010 535i for a 4.6 Genesis since his wife didn't like the BMW.
Another person (only driver) just added a 2011 535i to his garage (joining his Genesis).
The sales numbers are:
MB: 1 sale
RR: 0 sales
Looks like MB gained a sale and RR didn't get any. These aren't complex ideas here. Although you are trying your darndest to make it complex... obfuscation, I think it's called.
But do the Hyundai sales rep a favor--don't lie about your reason for taking a test drive. As you and I have said before, it's not fair to waste their time with a test drive if you're not in the market for a car--unless they know you're not in the market and decide to give you the keys anyway.
Re hood ornaments... when you find an US-spec Equus with a hood ornament, let us know. Maybe provide the URL to the photo. Until then, it doesn't exist.
I haven't seen a US spec Equus without the ornament either.
I agree--nothing complex about it. The automaker that gets the sale wins. All others lose. The incumbent loses the most.
You've seen photos of the US spec Equus without the hood ornament--right here in this discussion. Or maybe you didn't notice those photos posted not long ago?
not a bad question- the Azera now a step child of sorts, and never much of a competitotr to the J3 flagships - hell do they even sell it anymore - given that Hyundai already has it supposed flagship?
My point, which I guess you missed, was that anything can be deemed a success (or a failure) by simply defining what it is you wish to compare it to. Krafcik wants to judge the success of the Gen Sedan apparently by comparing its volume to the volumes of much pricier true lux vehicles. Well, of course anything that sells for $35k will usually outsell something that costs $50k (or more). Compare Gen volumes to those other similarily priced and sized near lux cars I mentioned, and on that basis the 'success' of the Genesis is debatable IMO, just like the Azera that preceded it.
IMO it all boils down to - Hyundai has unquestionably demonstrated the ability to build some pretty nice cars - BUT has the consumer really truly shown any real acceptance for a $30k Hyundai?
Why does the 5 Series outsell the Genesis then? (Just one example.)
And what happened to the position offered by some here, that a luxury brand (like BMW or Lexus or MB or Infiniti) is worth more to luxury car buyers, and they are willing to pay more for cars with a luxury badge than for cars without one? If that is true, than a measly $10-15k shouldn't be enough to keep a luxury buyer from a car with a luxury badge, instead of buying a Hyundai Genesis. Or is there in fact no value to a luxury badge??
I guess you don't think 3600 $30k+ sales a month is a sign the public has accepted the idea of a $30k Hyundai. I know some automakers who would kill for those kinds of sales for $30k+ vehicles.
because the 5s are a standard of sorts by which others are judged, and those folks that spend the extra money for them understand what level vehicle they are 'investing' in. There is an almost undefineable level of sophistication and singularity of purpose that is attached to cars like this (and to a lesser extent perhaps the MB Es) that is not approached even by the J3 branded luxos never mind the pseudo Korean ones. And that is largely why those German sedans can sell the way they do - not something generally understood in H fandom - not everything is a function of a pricetag.
The Equus will seemingly be Hyundai's first car with the luxury price to go with all that bling - they, however, will have to approach that Germanic kind of engineering sophistication(and performance) as well as get some exclusivety attached to the brand for it to succeed. They may be able to pull off half of that equation - or neither
What is so wild about Carmaker A not getting a sale (i.e. losing) and Carmaker B getting a sale (i.e. winning)? As you said, it's not complicated.
As for the purchaser being informed and rational... if they buy the Hyundai, they are obviously very informed, and rational.
Odd for you to say that. The Equus will cost five figures less than comparable cars. So I can envision the same comments about "lower priced cars will sell more" when the Equus goes on sale.
not odd for you however - what is comparable to you a variable definition often justified by its cheaper price. Sort of like saying the Equus is 90% of what the S/7/LS are and justifying however short it comes up because it's $20k cheaper. No understanding what that other 10% actually is or is worth, just simple dollars and cents. There is more to it than just 'badge'
That's what every car is, not just highlines. The Civic owner would like to be able to afford an Accord some day, the Accord would like to be able to step up to a TL some day, the TL owner would love to step up to... never mind.
Aha! You ARE afraid to drive a Genesis and get hooked! :P
Reality doesn't matter. Once a hood ornament, always a hood ornament. In some minds, the Genesis and Equus are nothing more than a Pony or Excel.
I don't know what could be rational about paying brand new prices for any car, with how good cars are these days. Not to mention different driving styles. I recently read H has decided not to even try to sell the Equus in Europe, because of how poorly Lexus has fared there. That might explain who the conquests are here, and who the competition really is in NA.
Actually, the smart way would be to buy one a couple years old in pristine condition,and use the savings for mods. Or, wait for newer improved engines...H is bumping up some HP ratings, I think.