Houses cost too much!

fintail

That's right. Vancouver and Toronto are probably the most inflated speculative markets in North America (with Seattle maybe being 3rd). For all of the social justice babble that Canada spews, it has been destination one for laundered offshore money for years, which is why Vancouver has average incomes no higher than Seattle - maybe even less, but the typical detached house passed seven figures years ago. Seattle is catching up and has matched it in some localized areas, but Toronto and Vancouver lead the way.

50 years ago, these places were no different than anywhere, normal people could afford a house.

gagrice

I don't know how people exist in those cities. Watching the flipper and real estate shows with people buying homes up close to a million. Boggles my mind. we want to get away from the high cost of living. And we are far from poor with about $11,000 a month coming in. When one of us dies that will be cut in half. So we don't want to live above half of what we now take in. With rising taxes in CA we would be in that situation when the state raises income and property taxes to pay their pension obligations.

fintail

Dirty offshore money (that our "law and order" regime won't expose to "vetting"), parental aid, lucky generations who bought when normal working people could do so, or people who divert every cent into the mortgage (even foregoing savings and retirement) and will be up crap creek without a paddle, should the market ever collapse. That's how they do it.

I suspect a lot of pension holders will eventually be told to go pound sand.

gagrice

Many people both private and public sectors will find they are not going to get what they were promised. Pensions are so underfunded across the country. It will mean working way longer for many people. My plan is to get my expenses down to where I or my wife can survive on just my SS that she will get if I die first. This will be the last year CA rapes us.

fintail

Most people can't dream of a pension, so there will be nothing to lose there - outside of very few industries, pensions are for luckier generations, or the public sector who are given gilding when it comes to retirement. The tail end of boomers retiring en masse in about 15-20 years will probably create enough pressure for a minimum income, or actual tax reform not reliant on trickle down lies.

For as bad as CA can be for a retiree, I suspect it treated you much better financially than had you lived in Indiana or Mississippi etc - some of those lucky generations hit the jackpot there due to real estate, and received gains via nothing but good timing that would not have been possible nearly anywhere else.

gagrice

Actually CA has been a giant negative for me. I have not made money on any RE investment in CA. Hopefully this will be the first. Not counting the money till it is transferred to our account. Most of the money I have made in RE was in Hawaii. We hit it right on several properties. I also made money on one Alaska piece. All my income is from 37 years working in Alaska. I do not get a penny for my 9 years at Ma Bell in San Diego. I was living paycheck to paycheck until the late 1990s. Supporting an ex wife and two children. The late 1970s were the most brutal.

fintail

Didn't you make money back in the day, or your family who was there? Or wifey? Still, had you bought your place in many low tax low amenity places when you bought in SD, you might be six figures under water today. For all of the ills of tax and spend locations, they have afforded many some pleasant numbers via housing. I suppose the lesson there is be careful with wives and kids

I see similar complaints here, older folks complaining about taxes and COL, but not admitting the house they bought for 75K in 1982 is now worth over a million, and had they lived elsewhere it might be worth 150K.

gagrice

My wife made a few bob off of the home we moved here from. It was worth about $700k when we moved to this place. About that time her brother and SIL lost their home and needed a place to live. Then a niece needed a place for a couple years. By then she was lucky to get $400k. Plus lost her prop 13 tax break. The mobile home and condo I bought for two ex wives were a total loss for me. So for me CA property is a bust. If we clear $750k out of this place I would be happy and it would be a break even deal.

I did make money on the lots I bought in Lake Havasu back in the 1980s. The house I bought with two of the guys I worked with. We basically gave our equity to our boss when he got married and then canned for calling his boss names.

Then we still have two homes in Indiana that will be money losers for us. We will be lucky to only lose about $20k on one of them. The other we have potential buyers renting. He is going back to work at Alcoa, thanks to Donald Trump loosening the coal industry up. Wives and kids cost lots of money.

fintail

I still think you did OK, and better than you might have fared in most of the rest of he country. Helping family or unjust divorce settlements would happen anywhere. If you had bought your place in IN or GA or NV in 06-ish, you'd probably be worse off. Mobile homes and condos are fine to live in, but not as investments. But maybe a big part of the problem in the economy is homes as investments to begin with.

Good luck to Indiana, although I might not put my eggs in that coal basket, energy/environmental policy dictated by executive order doesn't seem sustainable. That might be a place to be a landlord, as initial prices are low, just have to find a good tenant. I know a couple people who have been landlords, horror stories abound.

gagrice

You can be assured I will not be buying any more homes in Indiana. Fortunately we carried the first mortgage on my daughters first home there. She was able to sell it and make a few thousand after living in it 6 years. She and her husband were having a new home built when he died of a heart attack. They have good insurance so we got paid off and she has her new home free and clear. I am amazed Evansville is doing as well as it is with Whirlpool pulling out and moving to Mexico a few years ago. They are a teaching center for nurses so that is a plus. My daughter works for a CA company from home, so no worries there.

You are so right about condos and mobile homes. Every time the HOA fees or space rents go up your home value goes down. I learned my lesson for sure. Pahrump is probably our last move. Getting too old for this sort of thing. Our friends that moved to Yuma are 80, so that is even worse.

fintail

All it takes for most of those cities is an industry or two, they don't need to be the center of everything. Some of them are pleasant enough, but I don't see myself in that part of the country unless I was relocated with a nice salary. I am in a small town now, and houses here that were 75K 20-25 years ago might be 100K now. It's funny how a few hours drive from the city rat race changes things. However, the commute wouldn't be for a sane person, and there's a dearth of good jobs here.

Most of the affordable condos in my area are low rise wood frame buildings. You get all the noise and sometimes iffy build quality of an apartment, but are stuck with the mortgage. You get a ~$400 HOA that isn't deductible (mortgage interest shouldn't be either, IMO), and watch out for assessments and wannabe-[non-permissible content removed] HOA enforcers. Or if you are lucky enough to be able to buy in a highrise, you can have a $600/month HOA. A lot of the fancier condos sit empty, vacant as they are bets placed by offshore speculators who are able to avoid "extreme vetting" by our beloved "law and order" regime.

gagrice

At least some people have made money on Condos. Looking at the condo I bought in 1998 with my then wife. I paid $102k for it. She got it in the divorce in 2002. Looks like she made out in 2005 selling for $387,500. Such is life. They did do some remodel work in the kitchen.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5342-Lake-Murray-Blvd-La-Mesa-CA-91942/16991321_zpid/?fullpage=true

fintail

Must be located near a specific industry catered to people who don't always have large families - maybe a hospital or university nearby? That price is as silly as it would be in my area.

gagrice

Right on the I8 Freeway entrance and one exit from San Diego State. Great location for sure. Our condo fees were low about $160 which is not bad with a pool to maintain. I was on the HOA board and it was like pulling teeth to get anything done. We had termites bad and we never did tent the place. We did have to repave the parking lot and tack a $1000 special assessment. City made us do it. I took care of all the sprinklers and irrigation to save money. The $160 included Water, Sewer & Trash which made it a bargain.

fintail

The school, that explains it. Before I lived here, I lived in a condo in a college town. It sold at the height of the market for maybe what it is worth today, 12 years later. It also had reasonable HOAs, and was managed well enough, with no financial drama. Nothing fancy like a pool or garages (it had carports) though, lots of retirees there. Never had a special assessment, as it wasn't too old.

gagrice

Ours were built in the 1970s boom. Each has one garage and parking spot. The pool was a waste of money. I don't recall seeing anyone use it the 4 years I was there. Just kept paying the pool service. No kids while I lived there, mostly older working class and retirees. It was small 16 units.

fintail

I think today, middle class/non-high end condos might be the most natural market, as they don't seem to attract the speculators and money launderers in this one part of the picture that has escaped calls for "vetting". I remember looking at places in FL on a whim, and anything with a pool was excluded - houses or condos. I would never use it, it is just a black hole that inhales money and time. I'd consider one here, but most of the close-in affordable ones are dense wood framed low rise buildings with high HOAs, and all the noise of an apartment with none of the freedom.

gagrice

An anecdote for young people looking to buy. While Leroy was installing my Internet in Pahrump, Donny his fellow employee stopped by on his way home from work. He helped Leroy finish the job on his own time. He just bought the home 2 doors from me in August. He is about 30 with a wife and two kids. Working for the local power/Internet company. I can guarantee someone working here for Cox in San Diego is not going to be able to afford this nice of a home. His office is less than 2 miles from us. Both young men were very professional and ambitious. Good to have a neighbor like that. Met 3 of my new neighbors and could not be more pleased with all of them.

https://www.redfin.com/NV/Pahrump/2961-Firestone-Cir-89048/home/30629714

fintail

I reckon all one would need for a 220K mortgage is decent credit and a household income of 60-70K - I suppose that's attainable in many places. Of course where I am, the idea of a livable SFH within a reasonable commuting distance for 220K is laughable, something for the lucky ones 30 years ago.

fintail

Recent sale in my zipcode

Houses cost too much, indeed.

gagrice

fintail said:

Recent sale in my zipcode

Houses cost too much, indeed.

What a dump, not a chance I would waste money on that place. Are the wages that High in Seattle to justify those prices. That is worse than San Diego. Two doors down is more house for far less money. Hope she gets what she is asking.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2424-Denova-Dr-Alpine-CA-91901/16905652_zpid/?fullpage=true


It is 800 sq ft smaller than my place with a killer view on top of the hill. I am thinking of listing at $800k.

fintail

It's partially wages as the boom here might outlast us all, but in that exact location, it's also about speculation and catering to offshore buyers, often who are using the local market as a money laundering venue. As the powers that be only want to perform "vetting" on a few people, it also shows no sign of slowing down That moldy old place will be bulldozed and replaced with a mcmansion bought for cash, no questions asked.

800K isn't exactly a pittance, that's a hefty mortgage - does SD have such wages, or is it also sketchy buyers and maybe ranking public sector types?

gagrice said:

What a dump, not a chance I would waste money on that place. Are the wages that High in Seattle to justify those prices. That is worse than San Diego. Two doors down is more house for far less money. Hope she gets what she is asking.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2424-Denova-Dr-Alpine-CA-91901/16905652_zpid/?fullpage=true


It is 800 sq ft smaller than my place with a killer view on top of the hill. I am thinking of listing at $800k.

gagrice

Amazingly most homes here are going for cash. I think the median is about $538k here. When you consider there are thousands of homes on postage stamp lots, under 1500 sq ft built in the 1950s, a large home for $800k is not out of line. Public employees, executives, engineers, all can afford that much for a home. Average school teacher in our little district makes $93k per year. I don't think it would be a good investment for someone retiring unless they have way more money than they can spend in a lifetime. My neighbor's house is in escrow, less than 2 weeks after it was listed. That is why I want to be moved before we list our place. If we can get the same amount per sq ft, we should list at $850k. Our view is much better than hers. Our home is also 10 years newer. I would love to clear about $500k. Maybe buy a couple rentals in our Pahrump neighborhood.

https://www.redfin.com/CA/Alpine/2424-Denova-Dr-91901/home/5115132

fintail

Any offshore component? I'd hope the banksters aren't giving 800K+ mortgages to people with 150K household incomes. Is that 93K pay or pay + bennies? I didn't know SD had that volume of high paid workers willing to live so far out, but I can imagine it would attract work from home types, along with maybe work from home types or once a week commuters from Orange County or north.

Rentals can be worthy if you have good tenants. Risky though, I've known horror stories. Renting more expensive properties might help. Detached house rental prices here had really lagged mortgage prices for some time, but the population influx finally made them jump. Apartments are hit and miss, the best bet is to rent in a good neighborhood.

gagrice

Actually we are not that far off the Freeway that takes you right into San Diego. 30 minute commute if traffic is good. More for people that want horses and such. Minimum 1 acre lots around us. I would say most of my neighbors are retired. I don't think San Diego is attracting the money laundering types. Maybe in the high priced beach communities. Not of any interest to me. We stay in our friends $14 million property any time we want. Right on the beach. Not high on my list of priorities. She would sell if she could get the whole family on the same page. This is being built two doors down from their 4 units.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3701-Ocean-Front-Walk-San-Diego-CA-92109/2131580810_zpid/?fullpage=true

We get the top right hand unit. 3rd floor suite. How Sweet it is... Just is not us. We prefer the quiet life we are wanting in Nevada. They get $5500 per week for each unit. Filled all summer long. Lots of people with money to burn.


http://www.bluewatervacationhomes.com/property/bluewater-ocean-front-1-and-2

fintail

There must be some way to get those mortgages. Maybe high income CALPers.

If I was going to spend 10MM on a house, that would be very far down on my list of where I'd want to buy I could see that working as a rental if you had 5-10 people to share the suite, which I suspect is the case - then it becomes cheaper than a nice hotel (many hotel rates are also insane).

Sandman6472

Living in South Florida, empty nesters in our 4/2 for just over 30 years now. Working part time as I retired from government work back in 2011. So ready to move but the wife ain't and still working full time. House needs a new kitchen and a partial master bath but holding out for awhile. Most neighbors have either done driveways in stamped concrete or pavers so might go ahead with that.
Think if we got the right offer now, we'd leave in a heartbeat! End of a cul-de-sac so perfect for kids. Houses that go up usually sell within a couple of weeks. Ours is one of the smallest in the area with no pool so am being realistic on what I think we could get. Zillow.com says a lot more but really, who knows and luckily, we have an excellent school system that folks want, our reason 30 years ago also. Luckily our monthly overhead is pretty affordable for us and we definitely live under our means and have always done so.
As I said, if the right offer comes along, we're gone!

The Sandman

gagrice

You plan to stay in Florida? Hard to beat your COL. I would not like the humidity, one reason we are in Pahrump NV. Gets hot but very low humidity. We can afford to spend the summers on the Oregon Coast with our much lower COL, vs CA where we are moving from.

fintail

If it's paid for, and she who must be pleased is happy, no hurry to move, Sandy. Sounds like you got lucky and bought in a good area - I know south FL can be hit and miss, as can many areas (even in Seattle, values increase in some areas much faster than other, and neighborhoods geographically close can be night and day). Kitchen and bathroom remodels are tough sells though, I'd imagine you want to do it for yourself, not for profit, as they might not create profit.

gagrice

I would never remodel a house again to make a profit. Too many things can go wrong. People are paying way too much for fixers anyway. The house in Evansville we have owned for 5 years is finally sold??? Paid $40k, invested labor and materials $19k. Selling for $39k and happy to be rid of it.

Sandman6472

Did the kids bathroom back in 2009 and picked all the finishes and colors and it came out nice. Would be willing to do the kitchen and master bath but would rather sell to a young family with kids as that's the street dynamic now, with only three original owners as empty nesters. But since the overhead is so low for us, we're staying for the time being. Did go look at that foreclosure around the corner and it's really nice from the outside looking in. Nice pool and on a canal. Saw a couple vehicles in the driveway this morning so folks are looking to buy it.
Would be a nice investment but not so sure the wife would agree. If I could afford it myself, a cash deal, might go ahead with it but than I'd be tapped out. One will need a few bucks to bring it up to speed though. The timing is just off for me on this place.

The Sandman :@

fintail

Interesting story related to several dozen houses sold to our beloved offshore buyers can't make up this stuff

gagrice

fintail said:

Interesting story related to several dozen houses sold to our beloved offshore buyers can't make up this stuff

Too funny. If the state confiscates the houses that is a pretty good source of revenue. If you get caught growing pot in Hawaii, they take your property cars everything.

fintail

If there's one arena that needs regulation, it is certain means of real estate purchasing. We're a haven for money laundering and related activities. Time for some "vetting", but when a credential-free adviser is actually out there hawking residency for sale, it's not going to happen. If we won't vet the people, time to tax the living daylights out of their escape route/casino real estate purchases, and use the funds for infrastructure.

The wacky tobacky is legal here, too, so not exactly like the civil asset forfeiture of backwards states, but at a volume like this, you're organized crime, not just a hobbyist smoker.

gagrice

Well I am hoping the market keeps going up long enough to sell my place in CA. Here is the listing that came out today. I am quite pleased with the Video they did. Makes me want to buy the place. According to most of the real estate companies it is slightly below market value. I am not greedy if I can break even after living there 11 years, I am a happy ex California resident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-cpBJTM-gs&feature=youtu.be

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2452-Denova-Dr-Alpine-CA-91901/16905654_zpid/?fullpage=true&view=public

fintail

Looks like the local market came back, but it fell really hard. You picked an interesting time to buy In my area,a place like that might bring 2-3x as much, not for the house, but for the lot.

Good luck, to a Californian who actually isn't moving to WA or OR, you deserve it.

gagrice

It peaked in San Diego, late 2006. Just now passing the highs of that period. Realtor is confident enough he can sell it that he spent the money on the photos and video. They are having an open house here Saturday, so we are trying to get everything we are taking loaded in the trailer and head back to Pahrump.

fintail

Sometimes pricing under market can even cause a bidding war - that's a trick used all the time around here. If you've priced that aggressively, I am sure you will do fine - much of the west coast is what everyone wants right now.

gagrice

Now here is an unusual house for sale. We saw this in our wandering around Cottage Grove Oregon. At the time the yard was filled with trash and it was abandoned looking. Still needs a lot of work and a cash buyer. It will take a rare kind of person to buy it.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/80306-Old-Lorane-Hwy-Eugene-OR-97405/48428777_zpid/?fullpage=true

fintail

Not my kind of thing, someone's weird dream, probably inspired by magic mushrooms.

If I want a crazy place, I'd buy this - it sold for 480K last year. Nice plot of land, and a stone's throw outside of Salem. I can't imagine something like this being so cheap, in my area the land alone would be worth millions.

Fun housing market news in Seattle - by the time you save up, prices will have tripled. Have fun with a 2 hour each way commute.

gagrice

I really like the area around Salem Oregon. Looked at a couple houses there on one of our trips to visit the kids. I would have to spend $100k on that house to get rid of the awful wall paper and carpet. No two story houses for me. One of the big draws for Pahrump is 99% of the homes are single level. Hard to find much for $500k here. This is what you get for half a million. Acre land with well, septic, pool all landscaped. This place in our old neighborhood would be well over a million.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2820-Winchester-Ave-Pahrump-NV-89048/89190331_zpid/?fullpage=true

fintail

For the 70s time warp, I'd replace some of the flooring as I prefer hard floors or berber style carpet, but not much else - people are into preserving things like that now, and it will be a key to interest and value. Kind of like with original old cars or old furniture, don't refinish it.

I can't recall the last sub-500K detached house in the city where I live, although if you go a city or two south (which can be a 15 mile/90 minute commute) there are plenty. Is it really only an hour from Vegas? That could work as a distant bedroom community - but Vegas area housing is pretty cheap too, especially compared to here.

gagrice

Very pleasant 50 mile drive. That place would be a lot more in Las Vegas. Even Henderson has gone crazy, as the main bedroom community of LV. Worst part is homes are jammed together in Vegas. And mostly condos now. Lot of people commute. Next door neighbor goes 70 miles to Area 51 by bus every day. I thought about Boulder City, it is very expensive. How about a 778 sq ft condo near the Strip.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3722-Las-Vegas-Blvd-S-UNIT-1907-Las-Vegas-NV-89158/117450397_zpid/?fullpage=true

fintail

Vegas is fun to visit every 5-10 years, but I wouldn't want to live on the strip.

I suppose traffic there is light to the point where a 50 mile drive might even be relaxing. A 50 mile Puget Sound drive will easily be 2 hours on a dry commute day.

gagrice

My trip to Costco takes just an hour. 57 miles and the first 40 miles are posted 70 MPH on a 4 lane highway smooth enough to set a speed record of 284 MPH in a production car. So little traffic even at 7:30 in the morning it is not an issue. Last 17 miles through Red Rock Canyon National Conservation area is posted 50 MPH. Most people go 55-60. Have to watch for Burros, Bikes and horses. That part makes the trip worthwhile. When we get to Summerlin Costco we are still 12 miles from the Strip. Have not been there since moving. The area around Costco has every store you can imagine. All new, neat and clean. No panhandlers or homeless in Summerlin. We can be in and out of Las Vegas and home by noon with all the shopping we want to do.

fintail

I am sure the summer weather would drive away any transient populations, not to mention they'd probably prefer the greater population density in LV itself.

Sounds like a good commute for a diesel cruising vehicle, now just to have good wage employment centers there.

Here's a nice vacant lot in my zipcode - to be fair, this is the cream of the crop in terms of locations, but still. Only one "8" in the price, I am surprised.

gagrice

$7.8 million and $33,000 a year taxes. Not in my price range. I think a lot of people here work for the Feds up in the secret areas of the state. My next door neighbor works 70 miles from here at the "SITE". Takes a bus for 2 bucks each way. Most everyone sleeps for the ride. Have no idea what he does. He does not volunteer anything. The lot where they park is full every day. So I assume a lot of people that live in Pahrump work for the Feds. And a quite a few work in Las Vegas. I looked at two lots here on the golf course. The owner lives in Kirkland WA. Does not look like he is hard up for money paying more per year in taxes on his home than his lots in Pahrump are worth. Nice place with a view of the water.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/10305+NE+60th+St,+Kirkland,+WA+98033/@47.6608839,-122.2032543,68m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x54901329ec31549b:0x42ddc610ef6af76a!8m2!3d47.6608379!4d-122.2031995

fintail

And that's the tax bill before some tacky monster house is built on the lot. I don't think tax rates here aren't especially high for a real metro area, but values are so high, that the taxes can be steep.

Yeah, a house in that area of Kirkland (the city behind the Costco store brand name) will be a healthy 7 figures. The eastern shore of Lake Washington, from around the Bellevue/Renton Border all the way to Kirkland, is kind of a "gold coast" nowadays. Bill Gates's place is maybe a couple miles south of that house.

gagrice

This is about as far away as you can get in the US of A from Kirkland. My little brother and his wife just bought this home in Punta Gorda Florida. They were living on their Sailboat in PR before the hurricane. Sold it and sold their condo in Tampa. Got tired of Tampa and wandered around TN where they both have family this winter. Decided they don't like winter weather and spent two weeks looking in Punta Gorda before buying this place. Plenty of room to build a dock and buy a new sailboat. Nice to be retired and wealthy at 57.

https://fivestarrealty.com/property/3439-nighthawk-ct-punta-gorda-fl-33950-2/

fintail

FL, cool place to visit, maybe spend the winter, don't know if I could live there full time. Summer weather, hurricanes, and the crazy train mentality of the locals might get old. Cheap housing in most of it though, for sure. That money won't buy a vacant lot in my zipcode.