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By the way, I heard that Motorcraft is made by Pennzoil, which, oddly enough, doesn't sell it's own semi-synthetic (although Pennzoil's customer service rep told me both Pennzoil and their cousin Quaker State do satisfy the demanding Ford spec, and Castrol told me the same thing).
Honda has a private label 5-20 oil, but it doesn't say anything about semi-synthetic or the Ford spec (no surprise, they agreed on 5-20 oil but apparently didn't completely agree on going beyond the SL rating), so although it is made by Exxon-Mobil, i.e., the friendly people who brough us Mobil 1, I presently prefer the possibly better engineered Ford oil. Anyone out there have any additional information on the various flavors of 5-20 oil - Ford spec (published), Honda spec (is there one?), SL, semi-synthetic.
Finally, according to Mobil 1, they are coming out with a 0-20 full synthetic that will satisfy the Honda spec (whatever that is; Mobil-Exxon makes the private label Honda oil) but I didn't ask them about the Ford spec; ,maybe it will, since Mobil 1 is a super premium oil and traditionally has satisfied all the "micro-specs" like ACEA wear tests for Mercedes Benz, Japanese valve train wear, etc.
I am debating whether to continue to use Motorcraft semi-synthetic 5-20 in the Honda during the warranty period, with 3000 mile oil changes and STP oil filters, to switch to Castrol GTX (always a good brand, in my opinion better than Pennzoil, or to wait and switch to Mobil 1 0-20 when it comes out and extend to 5,000 miles (less time in the shop). I don't like to go beyond 5,000 miles due to additive breakdown concerns and filter concerns; I buy a premium oil for extra protection, not extended drain intervals.
BTW, for those of you who think oil lasts forever, I rooted around on the web and found one oil company press data sheet that indicated Ford wanted their own WS spec for 5-20 oil because the prior 5-30 SF oil degraded rapidly enough that it lost its fuel saving abilities by the time EPA broke in the engines on their test beds; Ford wanted an oil that would still have the fuel saving capability after a couple of thousand miles. So the oil change companies haven't been lying to us all these years, oil can degrade in important qualities relatively fast. As a person who drives fast across the desert (with carefully inflated tires!) I don't want to micro gall the cylinders on my car....
I believe Motorcraft oil is made by Conoco.
Honda oil is made by Mobil I believe.
Pennzoil and GTX are both good dino oils with moly added when the SL grade started shipping.
Don't be confused by all the "blends" and "synths"
on retail shelves. They are mainly group 2 and group 3 dino hydrocracked products. Good oil, but over priced. Mobil 1 is the only PAO based synth readily available on retail shelves.
Also the Motorcraft semi-synth falls into the group 2-3 category. It's no better IMO than Chevron Supreme, Pennzoil,or GTX, all of which use hydrocracked base oil. For 3-4K mile changes, these are all good, but they are not PAO or ester based full synthetic products.
Choose your preferred product and understand it's limitations.
The only 2 points that I'd add, is that various oil analyises reported (mine included) show this oil is holding up fairly well when used under 5K miles. Probably the only substantive issue one has to decide is whether or not to use it during the warranty period. And that is so personal, you really have to respect the opinon of the vehilce owner.
89K on M1 5W30, huh? That's the best example I've seen so far that something other than 5W20 at least does no harm. Now you've got me thinking.
this is from Bob's board:
This an analysis I had done on my Bud's '01 Monte Carlo. (3.8L) The car is driven like "Aunt Minnie". Almost all short trips of less than 5 miles. He changes the oil every 6 months regardless of the miles.
Schaeffer labs did the report
Miles on Car 7220
Miles on oil 1503
Oil Filter: A/C DELCO Ultra Guard gold
copper.......90
iron.........16
chromium......1
aluminum......3
lead..........4
moly.........79
phospherous.943
zinc........945
magnesium...372
calcium....2770
anti-freez ..0%
Fuel Dilution..positive
H2o...........0.2%
silicon......14
viscosity cst...8.63
sae/iso......20w
sulfur.......16
oxidation.....0
nitration....19
Comments were viscosity reduction due to fuel dilution
Oil s/b changed
The synthetic oil is still superior but the engine does not function well under the conditions he finds himself running.
If he has eliminated those posibilities, then I would also switch to dino but I don't know if he's going to be able to let a dino go 3k in that engine.
The lab said to extend the drain interval to 11300. Synthetic is good, but I don't think it'll do 5 times that.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;- f=3;t=000377
ITAP,
Jack
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;- f=3;t=000197
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;- f=3;t=000320
Is that like 10 cases? I don't have garage space for that. Wish there was a distributor in my home town. I believe Little Rock is the nearest to my town.
If I have read your post correctly at 2.66 per qt with a 250 min for free shipping that is like app 100 qts or 25 gals. ( actually 93.98 qts or 23.495 gals)
Some other poster on another thread gave the distinct inpression it was 2.66 shipped to his door. Since we were doing a 7 qt comparison I took him at this word that he got 7 qt @ 2.66 for app 18.62. Shipped to his door.
(a gal of water is app 8#s so x 24=192. The last time I priced app 100#s to ship it was like 84 dollars (UPS))
Another unplanned thing that happened to me was, I needed motor oil when I took on gas in Taos, New Mexico. I went over to the local auto parts place and looked for Mobil One 5W-30 and it went immediately into the Vette's engine. Deal Done. The brand is available almost ANYWHERE.
I currently have a TLC that is run fairly similar to what you describe. It is at 10k on the Mobil One oil change interval. It also is heading toward the 100k (7 oil changes) mark with NO concerns. It has not even had unscheduled repairs or maintenance and is parked outside 24/7 to boot. It customarily needs about 1/4 qt at the 14k mark. I still love this car even though it is going on 10 years old. My baby girl will probably take this to college with her in the fall!
If the 15k mark does not roll around before she leaves, I might be tempted to change the oil before!
Over the last 5 cars, (which now accounts for over 650 miles with no oil related repairs)I have always made it a habit to carefully break in the new car AND change oil @ 1-2k miles when new. After that, I have gone pretty much to the full 15k inteval on all of them. I would guess that the OEM has determined that no "new car" 500 mile to 2k mile oil change is in order, but this is one habit I still do. While the tolerances have probably gotten tighter and the materials better, it seems to me the assembly of a motor hasn't changed much.(having done this myself and watched new engine assembly and assembly lines and custom tuning). I am not aware of the lubrications used in assembly having to meet the SJ/SL standards. They ususually are compatible with motor oil however. The other thing that hasn't changed much is the motors' parts which are machined to exacting standards, STILL have to get used to or form a relationship in the actual engine it has to do the work. I have even gone out with my Vette tuner to do EXACTLY that! (650 hp under the hood on the street is a very interesting feeling!I guess he brought me along for ballast) Makes my 385 hp feel like a VW Beetle!
Given that Schaeffer's costs more than Mobil One, (4.5 plus shipping VS 4.00 to go to 11-12k)(Also we are comparing a 25% synthetic group 2 vs a "full synthetic"). I would stick with the Mobil One.
An interesting but academic test would be a homebrew blend: Mobil One 1 qt/Mobil conventional 4qt (to equal 25% PAO), cost 1.75 qt to see how it stacks up against Schaeffer's blend @ 4.50 a qt.
There are ways to get down the costs of both products I am sure, (I would hazard a guess that both products can be had in 30 gal and 55 gal containers
Is there documented proof synthetics are better? Have I gone too long on the regular stuff for it to make a difference at this point? I'm considering buying the Mobil One and taking it to my dealer and getting a credit back for the oil they're not using.
Any guidance would be very much appreciated!
I am assuming you have been giving your vehicles good maintenance. I think that without a doubt if you continue on your path, you will make it to 200k and beyond, with no oil related failures.
Oil analysis is about as documented as you can get I would think!?
I would give some thought about why you wanted to switch. For example, if you have run close to 100k you have given your engine amble time and conditions to build up sludge. Synthetic oil will not remove sludge. Also, you will not erase the wear already done with conventional oils, but if you switch you will reduce the wear, but using your 200k target, you would reduce only the 100k portion and not the whole 200k portion.
Cost can sometimes be part of the equation and if you don't want to extend the intervals it may actually be more costly to run synthetic oil. A good example would be you are already changing your conventional oil at say 3k and when you switch to synthetic you will still switch at 3k. While you are getting a superior oil, you are increasing the cost say 4x. So you are leaving a large chunk of change at the table, or to be more precise, letting it go down the drain far too early.
It is obviously more, based on your 4X cost factor, to use the synthetic but the benefit is a sludge free (from the point of using synthetic forward) engine? If you double the interval, then the cost would be twice as much as dino? Am I understanding it correctly?
Thanks for the info!
I personally do 15k intervals with my current 4 vehicles (three are landcruisers, one a vette.)
In your case of 5k intervals with conventional vs 15k intervals with synthetic, parts would be like 11 vs 32 (7qt@ 1 and 4 dollar filter vs 7qt@4=28+4=32) So over the course of 15k miles synthetic actually costs less and you have gotten under your hood 2 less times. If you let the dealer do the oil changes, it is actually 90 dollars (30 per). If you bring the synthetic oil and a filter they usually will charge like 18 dollars labor (plus 32 would cost 50.)
This might be an interesting article:
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
Can I call your attention to the TBN (bottom numbers on the graph illustration) at zero and at 6k miles. 15.5/6.5. Doing the ratios should let anyone PROJECT when the folks in the article will probably need to change the oil. The math would indicate miles and %'s. Wouldn't you agree? So using zero useful life left as the target (you can also use say 5,10,15%, buffer), the question is: what is the % percentage @ 6k and what is the number of miles @zero useful life?
So given the numbers and projects the operative question is: how much of a buffer are you comfortable with, given the TBN is essentially used up at 2? So for me that is why I use a 15k interval with buffer, so I change between 13-14k.
So this brings up the question of: do the conventional oil users really know what their buffer is or do they just take 3k intervals on blind faith? Given the fact that upwards of 98% of folks DO NOT test conventional oil, I think you know the answer to that one!?
Also, I am not at all convinced that an engine 'sludges up' simply because it's given conventional oil. Perhaps if the oil is used too long or the vehicle sees extreme duty or something like that. But I don't think it's a given that conventional oil causes engines to sludge up - at least not to any harmful degree.
One way to really tell if the engine is sludged is to take it apart. I merely indicated that with 100k miles, if it did sludge it would have and if it did the synthetic would not clean it out. Let me put it this way, the majority of sludged engines that I personally have seen is with conventional oil. Sludge as you know can be pretty well removed using the Bosch hot solvent system flush. The only thing is that it is fairly costly. Synthetic oil is FAR less susceptible to sludging. I have seen all of mine sans the Vette and not only did they look clean as a whistle to me, but the dealers' mechanics think so also . Trust me, telling me that runs counter to their self interest, in that if it were not they would love to hit me for maintenance if the specifications are not to factory specifications. The most important component is the analysis about 100k in conventional vs 100k synthetic component wear patterns.
Also my other point is that conventional folks do not do oil analysis such as the article described for the synthetic. This experiment is easily replica table with CONVENTIONAL oil. It would be great to take samples of conventional oil at 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15k. as is the intention of the articles experimenters. It would be an interesting eye opener to run these tests side by side with a brand name recognized conventional brew.
I have priced Redline and it is around8.30 a qt, over 6 qts @ 7.95 not including shipping.
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